Whats your opinion on the holocaust (WWII) and holocaust denial?

[Stock Market Anomalies]

Do you believe that approximately six million Jews were systematically killed by the nazis as the history books claim?

The term "holocaust denier" has cunningly been used against those who don't agree with the entire tale, slandering large group of people who believed history has been "glossed" by the victors.

And there are those who believe that the whole thing is a hoax.



What do you believe? How did you come to that conclusion?

[FrY]

Its true I saw it on mythbusters.

[spiralds123]

I think it may have been overblown. I have no factual information to support this, but it just doesn't make sense. Although he may hate them, anyone leading a country into war should be more than happy to have "slaves" at their disposal to work in the factories being bombed.

For some reason it just doesn't sit right, it feels like something is either untold, or is just fabricated.

[AliceWut]

So....I'm totally all mixed up about it cause I think what happened was horrible, but I read that other thread about the holocaust and it made sense. I've always realized that genocides happen for a reason, population control, but it still sucks that so many people get killed so inhumanely.
And yea i think the history books are right, they may jazz it up with descriptive flowery words but most of it is true.
I think that it was horrible, but it happened and its fine for people to feel bad and remember it because we're supposed to learn lessons from history. But at the same time things would be seriously FUCKED if it didnt happen, with population and stuff.

[Rizzo in a box]

I'm pretty sure most of it was bullshit, and I believe the Holocaust was the idea of a very few Zionists that wanted to create the state of Israel. Hitler was an unknowing pawn instead of the Devil himself.

[Rainycity]

maybe 5 million. 5 million 6 million same dif.

[Daran]

As long as some jews die, does it even matter? :D

[Rizzo in a box]

As long as some jews die, does it even matter? :D

Well if the jews were the ones that set themselves up the bomb then yes, I suppose it might.

[Daran]

Well if the jews were the ones that set themselves up the bomb then yes, I suppose it might.

Are you implying something, Mr. Rothschild? :eek:

[Captain Politik]

I hate how people act like Germany was the devil while UK and all them were saints. They were killed because no one wanted them. There was no country willing to take them, thus holocaust

[Daran]

I hate how people act like Germany was the devil while UK and all them were saints. They were killed because no one wanted them. There was no country willing to take them, thus holocaust

History supports your claims of nobody wanting them. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_France#The_Great_Exile_of_1 306) Pretty sure Germany was the devil in this case though. :p

[water bottle]

Definitely believe it happened. Stating otherwise seems to be little more than nonsense babble for the purpose of being an "independent thinker" (by which I mean people who have all the insanity of a conspiracy theorist yet none of the IQ) or just blatantly anti-Semitic. The few items of supporting evidence for the denial side I have seen are little more than probably photoshopped pieces of trash. I have no reason to believe the holocaust didn't occur. "Zionist conspiracy" is just plain dumb. There is way too much evidence to the contrary. You losers need to stop hating the Jews for their success (and hey, they do make good comedians).

[Lord hang man]

Didn't Canada help to influence the holocaust through our treatment of Indian peoples and the usage of reservations to 'herd' em together so to speak and sometimes murder entire villages of em?

[Rainycity]

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/Rainycity/raint.jpg

[water bottle]

Didn't Canada help to influence the holocaust through our treatment of Indian peoples and the usage of reservations to 'herd' em together so to speak and sometimes murder entire villages of em?

What? No. We were certainly dicks to the natives decades ago (now we just give them lots of money and treat them as if they are higher citizens than the Europeans or Asians who live here), but the concept of sticking a bunch of "undesirables" in camps certainly did not originate in Canada.

edit: why can't we thank people in this forum? I want to thank Rainycity :mad:

[Lord hang man]

Yea but they're like a 20 000 year old people and their population in Canada and the US is dwarfed by other ethnicities. Why?

[water bottle]

Yea but they're like a 20 000 year old people and their population in Canada and the US is dwarfed by other ethnicities. Why?

I might just be stoned, but I really don't know what you're getting at. Are you commenting on how we've treated the natives in a rather shameful manner in the past? I definitely agree with that, but I don't see the connection to the holocaust here.

[LiquidIce]

I believe that it happened because we have a camp in our city, been there on a number of occassions already. I voted the second option, because I've seen too many versions of the number of victims - I'd have to truely delve deep to uncover which is the true one, however I know the number was fucking huge.

And hats off to german craftsmanship - the furnaces and installation are still ready for operation despite being 65+ years old.

[Stock Market Anomalies]

Yea but they're like a 20 000 year old people and their population in Canada and the US is dwarfed by other ethnicities. Why?

I'm certain that has nothing to to with centuries of immigration.

Nothing at all. :hrmph:

Now stop trollin my thread

[TheDarkRodent]

While I believe the numbers are by and large accurate I voted "Shit happened, but not whats in the books" for the simple reason that I think a horrible chapter in human history has been exploited further to create a Jewish State in what was already known to be an oil rich region for the purpose of having a pro western democracy in a region that was by and large unfavorable in its views of western society and the associated business interests.

If the true aim of the creation of Israel was to give safe haven to a persecuted peoples it would have been far more politically expedient and just to create this new nation from German territory that to displace people of Palestinian bloodlines in favor people of uncommon ancestral heritage who simply held a common religious system of beliefs.

So while I believe that Hitler did destroy some 6 million people of the Jewish faith I also feel that the event has been historically revised as to many of the true details in an effort to garner world wide sympathy for the state of Israel. I feel this was to help insure the ability of western commercial interests in the efforts to exploit the petroleum resources of the region.

[Snoopy]

What happened is irrelevant, forgotten, old and gay. What is important is that today; denying the holocaust is the best form of expressing our freedom we have. So anyone who doesn't deny the holocaust, irrelevant of facts or whatever, is a fucking bitch.

Jews are parasites anyway.

[TheDarkRodent]

Didn't Canada help to influence the holocaust through our treatment of Indian peoples and the usage of reservations to 'herd' em together so to speak and sometimes murder entire villages of em?

Can you please elaborate on your hypothesis of a correlation of the plight of the Native Americans and the persecution of the Jews in NAZI Germany? I fail to see your reasoning here.

[Sookie]

I don't even understand how anyone could sincerely believe that the Holocaust did not happen without having some kind of ulterior motive behind that belief. Like... how could you deny it? I can't find a single reason that would make the holocaust appear faked or unreal...

[Snoopy]

I don't even understand how anyone could sincerely believe that the Holocaust did not happen without having some kind of ulterior motive behind that belief. Like... how could you deny it? I can't find a single reason that would make the holocaust appear faked or unreal...

IRL trolling. Can there even exist a greater reason?

[Lord hang man]

I'm certain that has nothing to to with centuries of immigration.

Nothing at all. :hrmph:

Now stop trollin my thread
Well where did they go? Even the measures of federal support for Natives compared to the creation of a Jewish state in Israel point to this similarity. Besides the fact that they're actually mostly gone and the explanation for this is not being provided by saying they weren't pretty much exterminated. Who can back that theory up, cuz until then all you got is two conflicting historical viewpoints with the basis of fact rooted in conquerer's ink.
I might just be stoned, but I really don't know what you're getting at. Are you commenting on how we've treated the natives in a rather shameful manner in the past? I definitely agree with that, but I don't see the connection to the holocaust here.
No I'm talking about literally rounding up particularly raucous tribes of Indians n razing their newly bargained reservations. That's pretty much exactly like loading Jews onto a train and taking em to concentration camps; only slightly more tricky.
Can you please elaborate on your hypothesis of a correlation of the plight of the Native Americans and the persecution of the Jews in NAZI Germany? I fail to see your reasoning here.

Plight? as in inflicted plight right? It's not really a thesis it's a statement that Natives were murdered so we could occupy their land. I was just wondering if Hitler heard about that or anything and figured it sounded like an alright idea.

[TheDarkRodent]

Plight? as in inflicted plight right? It's not really a thesis it's a statement that Natives were murdered so we could occupy their land. I was just wondering if Hitler heard about that or anything and figured it sounded like an alright idea.

If you must emphasize that the plight of the Native Americans was not a natural occurrence as we all are aware then fine, "inflicted". But can you seriously be suggesting that this was in any way inspiration for Hitler to systematically murder six million men, women, and children? Again I ask you to draw significant parallels between a 400 year campaign by the various powers of Europe and later the American government to settle and conquer lands inhabited by a technologically inferior indigenous population. A practice that was accepted for thousands of years by the several "civilized" peoples of the world. To rounding up six million people in their homes who are part of an existing indigenous population and putting them to death based on their religious beliefs alone over a 6 to 8 year period. I just don't see any correlation nor do I understand how you can possibly imagine it inspired Hitler's Final Solution.

I am not flaming you I am asking you to share your thought processes when you wonder if "Hitler heard about that or anything and figured it sounded like an alright idea."

[Rizzo in a box]

I don't even understand how anyone could sincerely believe that the Holocaust did not happen without having some kind of ulterior motive behind that belief. Like... how could you deny it? I can't find a single reason that would make the holocaust appear faked or unreal...

Do some effing research and stop listening to the authorities.

If I ever get around to it I'll start posting links and shit but I know it will probably cause a fucking shit storm.

[rabbitweed]

I believe that wartime propaganda, self-serving historians and organisations like the wiesentahl center have served, over the decades, to sensationalise what happened.

I do believe it was a terrible tragedy and that millions of people were herded against their will, worked to death and starved.

I do not believe in skin lamps, human-fat soap, gas extermination chambers or human ovens.

I also express utter distaste that every man and their dog remembers "6 million jews" but almost noone can knows the total number of holocaust dead...as if Jews are somehow more important than other human beings.

[DaSkipper]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: I do not believe the holocaust happened
Person 1: Preposterous
Person 2: Not true
Hitler: I OBJECT

[Mr. Dazed and Confused]

The thing about the Holocaust which gets completely overlooked is the number of non-Jews who were killed by Nazi Germany. It's estimated 5,000,000-6,000,000 non-Jews were killed and everyone seems to forget that. Russian POW were killed, Poles were killed, Slavs were killed, homos were killed, retards were killed, Masons were killed, Jehovah Witnesses were killed, Christians were killed..etc. The Holocaust wasn't about just about religion, race, mental health..etc or retribution, it was also a land grab. Hitler wanted to create a greater Germany for his people and the only way to do that was to kill anyone who got in his way and steal their land.

We can focus on the Jews all we want, they were the largest percentage that were killed, but millions of other people died and no one gives a fuck. I don't know if the media specifically chooses to only focus on the Jews rather than the others but I'm pretty sick of it.

BTW: History books are never entirely accurate. I think the numbers are fairly accurate even if they're off a bit. Say 8,000,000 people died in the Holocaust, 3,000,000 of them were Jews. Does that make the Hitlers crime any less horrific? What if 1,000,000 Jews and 3,000,000 non Jews were slaughtered? The point is, millions of people died, we should be vigilant to avoid such a thing from occurring again (we're not), and we shouldn't get caught up on the actual figures because no one will be satisfied.

[BungHole]

The thing about the Holocaust which gets completely overlooked is the number of non-Jews who were killed by Nazi Germany. It's estimated 5,000,000-6,000,000 non-Jews were killed and everyone seems to forget that. Russian POW were killed, Poles were killed, Slavs were killed, homos were killed, retards were killed, Masons were killed, Jehovah Witnesses were killed, Christians were killed..etc. The Holocaust wasn't about just about religion, race, mental health..etc or retribution, it was also a land grab. Hitler wanted to create a greater Germany for his people and the only way to do that was to kill anyone who got in his way and steal their land.

We can focus on the Jews all we want, they were the largest percentage that were killed, but millions of other people died and no one gives a fuck. I don't know if the media specifically chooses to only focus on the Jews rather than the others but I'm pretty sick of it.

BTW: History books are never entirely accurate. I think the numbers are fairly accurate even if they're off a bit. Say 8,000,000 people died in the Holocaust, 3,000,000 of them were Jews. Does that make the Hitlers crime any less horrific? What if 1,000,000 Jews and 3,000,000 non Jews were slaughtered? The point is, millions of people died, we should be vigilant to avoid such a thing from occurring again (we're not), and we shouldn't get caught up on the actual figures because no one will be satisfied.

Jews own the media!:eek:

[Mr. Dazed and Confused]

IRL trolling. Can there even exist a greater reason?

Making arguments for things you don't believe in is always pretty entertaining. That would be hilarious if a video of Iranian officials in a conference room leaked and they said someone along this lines in Farsi/Persian, "Guys we all know the Holocaust happened, but lets piss of the west and deny it's occurrence completely. They hate us any way, why not?"

[TheDarkRodent]

Do some effing research and stop listening to the authorities.

If I ever get around to it I'll start posting links and shit but I know it will probably cause a fucking shit storm.

If you have some data to back up your implied claims do please share it with us.

[Lucifereus]

there are videos of piles of dead jews and the concentration camps. there were population counts which show that there were 6 million jews less after 1945. where did your missing jews go holocaust deniers? did they move to mars?

[Stock Market Anomalies]

Well where did they go? Even the measures of federal support for Natives compared to the creation of a Jewish state in Israel point to this similarity.

:rofl:

[Rizzo in a box]

If you have some data to back up your implied claims do please share it with us.

For sure, just give me a bit.

[JustAnotherAsshole]

Around 11-17 million people died due to starvation and murder before and during their internment at camps. They were Jews, Poles, Slavs, Roma, the mentally disabled, etc.

I don't see how the holocaust slanders the Germans. Who now actually looks down on Germany for the Holocaust? I sure don't.

[spiralds123]

I don't see how the holocaust slanders the Germans. Who now actually looks down on Germany for the Holocaust? I sure don't.

The Nazis did it, not the Germans. Although the Nazis were German, that doesn't make all Germans blacklisted. (This is me saying I agree with you and why.)

[rabbitweed]

there are videos of piles of dead jews and the concentration camps. there were population counts which show that there were 6 million jews less after 1945. where did your missing jews go holocaust deniers? did they move to mars?

No, but it's entirely likely many emigrated away from the Nazis.

Also the 6 million claim often includes jews that starved because the Allies bombed German supply lines, blocking food. Jews were used as slave labour, they starved to death because the Germans had no food.

[spiralds123]

No, but it's entirely likely many emigrated away from the Nazis.

Also the 6 million claim often includes jews that starved because the Allies bombed German supply lines, blocking food. Jews were used as slave labour, they starved to death because the Germans had no food.

I agree with the beginning part. I think many people who were not close to their religion would have just fled the country and denounced their religion. If I just survived the holocaust and people were asking me if I was Jewish, I would probably say no. I wouldn't want to be killed by someone who came back to finish the job.

[007GoldenShower]

Holocaust denying is another term for attention seeking

[Agathokakological]

I would say it happened, but I'm sure many details are missing.

[BungHole]

Holocaust denying is another term for attention seeking

Awwww, ya got me.;)

[JustAnotherAsshole]

Jews were used as slave labour, they starved to death because the Germans had no food.

Knowing that, the right thing for the Nazis to have done would be to have released the prisoners. These people weren't dangers to society, they were kids and lawyers and mailmen and shit.

Keeping people locked up until they starve is murder. The reason that those Jews (and various others) were locked up to begin with is that they were on their way to being killed.

[ratfrink]

I was in the Imperial War Museum a few years ago and reading a book about the Holocaust in the little shop. Some guy came over to me and asked if I was Jewish. I said no, then he launched into some holocaust denial bullshit. So I stood back and said to the other people in the shop 'Hi everyone, listen, this man has something to say'. Well, stupidly (for two reasons) he said it, and then a man came over and punched him in the face. Then he ran out of the shop.

~~~

Anyone been to Auschwitz? I went there in the winter, the ground was frozen and there was hardly anyone else there. Birkenau is the death camp part, Auschwitz is the work camp and barracks. The first thing that hits you about Birkenau is the size - it's just rows and rows and rows of huts and chimneys (from the ruins of huts, not from the crematoria). I walked a bit away from the railway running down the centre and found one that was open and stepped into the porch and it was cold and damp and very very dark inside, and that was probably the scariest moment of my life. I stood there for a bit and went inside, and saw the shelves that the people slept on and all the graffiti carved into them by the prisoners. Then I walked up the railway to the death chambers which were destroyed. There isn't a big pit or anything, just a little boggy marsh bit, frozen over in the winter, where the ashes were dumped.

[rabbitweed]

I was in the Imperial War Museum a few years ago and reading a book about the Holocaust in the little shop. Some guy came over to me and asked if I was Jewish. I said no, then he launched into some holocaust denial bullshit. So I stood back and said to the other people in the shop 'Hi everyone, listen, this man has something to say'. Well, stupidly (for two reasons) he said it, and then a man came over and punched him in the face. Then he ran out of the shop.

~~~

Anyone been to Auschwitz? I went there in the winter, the ground was frozen and there was hardly anyone else there. Birkenau is the death camp part, Auschwitz is the work camp and barracks. The first thing that hits you about Birkenau is the size - it's just rows and rows and rows of huts and chimneys (from the ruins of huts, not from the crematoria). I walked a bit away from the railway running down the centre and found one that was open and stepped into the porch and it was cold and damp and very very dark inside, and that was probably the scariest moment of my life. I stood there for a bit and went inside, and saw the shelves that the people slept on and all the graffiti carved into them by the prisoners. Then I walked up the railway to the death chambers which were destroyed. There isn't a big pit or anything, just a little boggy marsh bit, frozen over in the winter, where the ashes were dumped.

You do realise how much of Auschitz was "rebuilt" in the years following the war, right?

[rabbitweed]

Knowing that, the right thing for the Nazis to have done would be to have released the prisoners. These people weren't dangers to society, they were kids and lawyers and mailmen and shit.

Keeping people locked up until they starve is murder. The reason that those Jews (and various others) were locked up to begin with is that they were on their way to being killed.

Yeah, I don't deny any of that. (I could point to many allied attrocities where the same thing happened.

What I do deny are extermination camps.

[ratfrink]

You do realise how much of Auschitz was "rebuilt" in the years following the war, right?

Source?

[rabbitweed]

Source?

http://www.cephas-library.com/israel/Auschwitz%20-%20Extermination%20or%20Labor%20Camp.htm

[ratfrink]

Yes, there is a replica gas chamber and crematorium at the Auschwitz museum. It is shown as a replica. There was never either a gas chamber or a crematorium at Auschwitz, because it was a work camp. There is a courtyard where regular firing squads would execute people, but it was not a death camp.

The originals are, and always were, at the death camp at Birkenau, which is a few miles down the road. And they are still destroyed.

[JustAnotherAsshole]

Yeah, I don't deny any of that. (I could point to many allied attrocities where the same thing happened.

What I do deny are extermination camps.

Whether they were to be worked to death or killed by other means, murder is murder and the intent is the same.

[rabbitweed]

Whether they were to be worked to death or killed by other means, murder is murder and the intent is the same.

Yes but without death gas chambers, human ovens and the like, the holocaust ceases to become a special, and just becomes another mass killing in history.

What irks me is the assumption that the holocaust is somehow worse than the armenian genocide, or the activities of stalin in the 20's and 30s, or any other mass death.

[adhesive tape]

I think the numbers aren't accurate. I also think that Jews try awfully hard to emphasize their losses, rather than the losses of all the other who were killed just the same. "6 million jews.... 6 million jews", you would think only 6 million people were killed in the camps. :rolleyes:

[gosugarrett]

I think the numbers aren't accurate. I also think that Jews try awfully hard to emphasize their losses, rather than the losses of all the other who were killed just the same. "6 million jews.... 6 million jews", you would think only 6 million people were killed in the camps. :rolleyes:

Well iirc the 6 million jews figure comes from Hitler's records. And as we all know, Hitler was a little bit of a cleanness Nazi. :D

[Sookie]

What irks me is the assumption that the holocaust is somehow worse than the armenian genocide, or the activities of stalin in the 20's and 30s, or any other mass death.

As a proud recipient of the American public education system, I'd like to attest to the fact that I don't remember ever learning about an Armenian genocide or what happened with Stalin in the war. We never even touched on any of the Asian ones like the Korean war... we just learned about the Holocaust. I mean, despite the sheer scale of the Holocaust, there are other atrocities just as bad or sometimes worse than your typical Nazi oven story.

I guess learning about one is enough?

[Curb Stomp]

Do you believe that approximately six million Jews were systematically killed by the nazis as the history books claim?


No because they weren't all Jewish. They killed anyone and everyone. Even Americans.

[Firemind]

Schools will never tell you the truth. Now they've lied so much the lies are all we know. History can be assimilated.

[TheDarkRodent]

Yes but without death gas chambers, human ovens and the like, the holocaust ceases to become a special, and just becomes another mass killing in history.

What irks me is the assumption that the holocaust is somehow worse than the armenian genocide, or the activities of stalin in the 20's and 30s, or any other mass death.

As a proud recipient of the American public education system, I'd like to attest to the fact that I don't remember ever learning about an Armenian genocide or what happened with Stalin in the war. We never even touched on any of the Asian ones like the Korean war... we just learned about the Holocaust. I mean, despite the sheer scale of the Holocaust, there are other atrocities just as bad or sometimes worse than your typical Nazi oven story.

I guess learning about one is enough?

The two posts above are a perfect example of how we can all learn from the various perspective of history taught in different nations.

No because they weren't all Jewish. They killed anyone and everyone. Even Americans.

In Poland alone the civilian death toll is estimated at 5,700,000 so I think you completely misunderstand the both the question and the death toll estimates of the holocaust. When it is estimated that 6,000,000 Jews were killed that is just the estimate of those killed in concentration camps and forced labor operations. To imply that the 6,000,000 figure includes other nationalities is ridiculous. The Soviets alone are estimated to have lost 10,000,000 military causalities and another 10,000,000 civilian causalities.

I think you have totally failed to grasp the concept of the figures being discussed here. No offense...

[Firemind]

As a proud recipient of the American public education system, I'd like to attest to the fact that I don't remember ever learning about an Armenian genocide or what happened with Stalin in the war. We never even touched on any of the Asian ones like the Korean war... we just learned about the Holocaust. I mean, despite the sheer scale of the Holocaust, there are other atrocities just as bad or sometimes worse than your typical Nazi oven story.

I guess learning about one is enough?

What?!
Not even, if they told us about most of them even you half-wits would realize The USA and it's Progenitors caused most this shit. (from 1800-2000)

[TheDarkRodent]

What?!
Not even if they told us about most of them. Even you half wits would realize The USA and it's Progenitor caused most this shit. (from 1800-2000)

LOL what?

He said Armenian genocide not American genocide. What did America 1800 have to do with the WWII holocaust?

[Firemind]

LOL what?

He said Armenian genocide not American genocide. What did America 1800 have to do with the WWII holocaust?
I thought he said American, in which case it would have been the near extermination and enslavement of the Native tribesmen. Generally a Holocaust.

[Retard Synrdome]

The Holocaust was cool.

[adhesive tape]

Well iirc the 6 million jews figure comes from Hitler's records. And as we all know, Hitler was a little bit of a cleanness Nazi. :D

A- The people who have "seen" these records are the same people touting these numbers.

B- Hitler's definition of a Jew would be much more inclusive than any modern definition, because he was looking for justification for genocide.

C- Numbers during wartime are always inflated/guessed/wrong.

[TheDarkRodent]

A- The people who have "seen" these records are the same people touting these numbers.

B- Hitler's definition of a Jew would be much more inclusive than any modern definition, because he was looking for justification for genocide.

C- Numbers during wartime are always inflated/guessed/wrong.

While it is true that numbers regarding causalities of war are never accurate. The estimates are not always over inflated. It all depends on who is estimating the figures. In regard to opposing points of view and war causalities one side will overestimate while the other will underestimate.

[ratfrink]

Yes but without death gas chambers, human ovens and the like, the holocaust ceases to become a special, and just becomes another mass killing in history.

What irks me is the assumption that the holocaust is somehow worse than the armenian genocide, or the activities of stalin in the 20's and 30s, or any other mass death.

So the gas chambers do exist now? Nice to see that you ignored my explanation of that laughable geography-fail you linked to.

I do think that the Holocaust sticks in the mind a lot more because, although the other great tragedies of the 20th century were equally horrific, the Holocaust was the bringing together of both an ideology, and of industrialisation and mechanisation. The other mass murders were brought about by starvation or by the firing squad (although concentration camps were 'invented' during the Boer War) - the Nazis took a more calculating and unemotional route and actually made a factory of death.

Obviously another reason is that the other tragedies happened under the Iron Curtain (alright, the phrase 'iron curtain' wasn't coined until 1945 but you know what I mean) so are culturally and socially somewhat distanced from us and especially from the previous generation.

[Cory]

But can you seriously be suggesting that this was in any way inspiration for Hitler to systematically murder six million men, women, and children?

Yes. The persuit of "Lebensraum to the East" was just the 20th century German version of "Manifest Destiny to the West". German settlers were to colonize the East and use the Slavs as a serf race to work the fields. It's almost literally the exact same thing. I really hope you don't think the genocide of the Native Americans (and yes, that's what it was, just the "books" don't like to mention it) is somehow inherently "less evil" just because it's in the more distant past/you agree with it.

Again I ask you to draw significant parallels between a 400 year campaign by the various powers of Europe and later the American government to settle and conquer lands inhabited by a technologically inferior indigenous population.


I just did. Germany could just do it quicker because technology enabled it. Also, the Nazis believed the Slavs to be a "technologically inferior indigenous population".

Pretty much:

"Manifest Destiny" and the persuit of "Lebensraum" are the exact same thing, the only reson we don't care about the former is because the winners write the history.

[Cory]

And yes, the Holocaust happened for fucks sake :facepalm: .

[TheDarkRodent]

Yes. The persuit of "Lebensraum to the East" was just the 20th century German version of "Manifest Destiny to the West". German settlers were to colonize the East and use the Slavs as a serf race to work the fields. It's almost literally the exact same thing. I really hope you don't think the genocide of the Native Americans (and yes, that's what it was, just the "books" don't like to mention it) is somehow inherently "less evil" just because it's in the more distant past/you agree with it.



I just did. Germany could just do it quicker because technology enabled it. Also, the Nazis believed the Slavs to be a "technologically inferior indigenous population".

Pretty much:

"Manifest Destiny" and the persuit of "Lebensraum" are the exact same thing, the only reson we don't care about the former is because the winners write the history.

There is a bit of a difference between a centralized official "Final Solution" and 400 years of gradual encroachment. But I am not going to continue this conversation with you as it is obvious that you are simply another hateful individual bent on demonizing America regardless of the topic of the thread. Besides it was the Europeans who slaughtered the Aztecs and most of the American Indians for the 1st 200 years. So go hate yourself and have a nice life. I am done with you in this conversation unless you wish to directly discuss the holocaust.

[Cory]

There is a bit of a difference between a centralized official "Final Solution" and 400 years of gradual encroachment.

Like I stated, the advances in industrial technology up to that point enabled the Nazis to preform their deeds much quicker.

But I am not going to continue this conversation with you as it is obvious that you are simply another hateful individual bent on demonizing America regardless of the topic of the thread.

No, it's "obvious" that you have no real argument and are hiding behind "liek OMG you hate AMERICA!!". :facepalm:

Besides it was the Europeans who slaughtered the Aztecs and most of the American Indians for the 1st 200 years. So go hate yourself and have a nice life. I am done with you in this conversation unless you wish to directly discuss the holocaust.

I never said I "hated white people" which is clearly what you're trying to paint me us as having said. I'm just pointing out the truth seeing as you refuse to see the comparisons simply because it contradicts your world view.

BTW: We are discussing the holocaust, just you have been proven wrong and have resorted to ad hominem accusations of "hating America" and "hating white people".

[TheDarkRodent]

Like I stated, the advances in industrial technology up to that point enabled the Nazis to preform their deeds much quicker.



No, it's "obvious" that you have no real argument and are hiding behind "liek OMG you hate AMERICA!!". :facepalm:



I never said I "hated white people" which is clearly what you're trying to paint me us as having said. I'm just pointing out the truth seeing as you refuse to see the comparisons simply because it contradicts your world view.

BTW: We are discussing the holocaust, just you have been proven wrong and have resorted to ad hominem accusations of "hating America" and "hating white people".

Nobody has "proven" anything so enjoy your "victory".

[Cory]

Nobody has "proven" anything so enjoy your "victory".

Auctually, you've proven me right by your lack of a serious response.

So I will enjoy my victory. :thumbsup:

[Rolf]

The Holocaust happened, states Rolf, many people (not just Jews) died and it shouldn't be forgotten. Though there were many more massacres in history and all one hears about is the Holocaust, states Rolf.

Very rarely are the Armenian Genocide or the Rape of Nanking mentioned and neither those who deny these massacres (the Turks still largely deny the Armenian Genocide, along with all the other crimes they've committed against them and the Japanese still partially deny the rape of Nanking, along with their other war crimes) are shunned by society, states Rolf.

[Cory]

states Rolf

states Rolf

states Rolf


Just cut it out already. :hrmph:

[Rolf]

Ideology: Socialist

:hrmph::hrmph::hrmph:

[Cory]

:hrmph::hrmph::hrmph:

:hrmph:

[DirtySanchez]

I don't so much deny it as question its extent. No doubt Germany wasn't good to the jews but the Germans felt a legitimate threat from them. There actually is a lot of evidence to suggest 6 million didn't die. The problem is that idea is automatically considered anti semetic. Most of the jews died as a result of disease and malnutrition due to war. They were a threat largely because of there communist leanings at the time. Theres evidence that debunks the gassings and many other aspects. In my opinion the idea that 6 million died is the retarded idea.

www.ihr.org

The jews also gained immensely from the holohoax in reparations and becoming a protected class immune from all criticism.

[Dread_Lord]

I don't believe that 6 million died, that there were any plans for any extermination camps, or that any gas chambers exited in any of those so claimed "extermination" camps.

That is of course with the exception of Euthanasia gassings which can actually be proved to have happen with physical evidence.

[Duelist]

I too am mad that everyone always says 6 million. That was just the figure for the jews! Some jewish lady came and spoke to our school, she was a survivor of the holocaust, "Hitler made a jew out of me," she said.

But on their website, http://www.holocaustcenterbuff.com/index.htm it says "The 6 million victims" I mailed a representative of the site and said that she should change that to reflect the total victims, or at least say 6 million jewish victims, but they never changed shit.

Holocaust in the 20th century is epitomized by the Germans. It was mechanized death. People were rounded up and sent on locomotives to death factories. This never happened before and hasn't really happened since (thank goodness). We have been granted great power in that century, to power to do as we please. We have become the obermench and it is our responsibility to chose.

this is why the holocaust is THE holocaust. Because hitler could exterminate whoever he wanted completely and efficiently. It wasn't like the SS would happen upon groups of jews, or go into their towns and kill everyone in a typical extermination.

No, the victims were taken by secret and forced to work until death. Or, if they were incapable of working they were killed immediately. This never happened before.

[Bobweirsucks]

the holocaust happened
a lot of the facts have been embellished but that shouldn't take away from how terrible it was
There were gas chambers and crematoriums, just not in every camp and some jews were burned alive but they were on the brink of death anyways so it's not like they walked into the oven.
Apparently there is a camp somewhere in poland (not auschwitz or birknau) that has a shower they say was really a gas chamber and the scratches on the wall were from dying jews. turns out that it was in fact only a shower room and the scratches on the wall were from visiting tourists. oh, and a practicing jew that lives in israel told me that.

[Dread_Lord]

the holocaust happened
a lot of the facts have been embellished but that shouldn't take away from how terrible it was
There were gas chambers and crematoriums, just not in every camp and some jews were burned alive but they were on the brink of death anyways so it's not like they walked into the oven.
Apparently there is a camp somewhere in poland (not auschwitz or birknau) that has a shower they say was really a gas chamber and the scratches on the wall were from dying jews. turns out that it was in fact only a shower room and the scratches on the wall were from visiting tourists. oh, and a practicing jew that lives in israel told me that.

There were crematoriums but no gas chambers. And the shower you speak of was probably the one at Dachau or buchenwald.

These gas chamber claims are myths. Even Robert Jan Van Pelt has stated that 99% of what they are told about the holocaust (by so called witnesses) is unsubstantiated by forensic evidence.

The exact quote is 'Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove .'.

[Bobweirsucks]

the nazis destroyed a lot of concentration camps as the allies closed in

[Dread_Lord]

Doesn't matter. All you're going on is 1% of evidence and the word of people who were imprisoned by the Germans precisely because they were enemies of the German people.

99% of the forensic evidence doesn't exist period. It was never destroyed it was just never there to be destroyed.

[T.K. Baha]

An interesting idea I heard was this. In WWII we rounded up the Japanese and put them into camps about the same as the Germans did to the Jews. The Jews cost Germany the first world war, so for this war they decided to keep them in a controlled environment to minimize saboteurs and spys. Just the same as we did to the Japanese. As the war dragged on, we bombed most of the German supply routes and destroyed their industries to the point that their own people were starving. Obviously if there is a food shortage, your going to feed your own people before prisoners. So really we, the British and the war were just as responsible for the death of all those people. Besides, prussic acid leaves blue stains on the walls where it was confirmed to be used, but camps like Auschwitz lack that evidence.

The Nazi's really had no sympathy for a lot of people and were barbaric, but I think that their intentions might have been to oppress the Jews and deport them, but after the war fell apart they took on drastic measures.

[Cory]

I think that their intentions might have been to oppress the Jews and deport them, but after the war fell apart they took on drastic measures.

Well auctually they were exterminating the Jews well before the Death Camps. Google Einstanzgruppen. The chambers were only formulated at the Wansee Confrence in January of 1942 when they decided that there were too many Jews in their control and they were "going to win the war anyways" (not a assinine conclusion given the situation at the time).

The first paragraph is just :facepalm: . "Jews costing Germany WWI"? WTF?

[ratfrink]

99% of the forensic evidence doesn't exist period. It was never destroyed it was just never there to be destroyed.

What's that enormous mound of hair, shoes and suitcases, and that partially destroyed concrete thing, doing in that field in Poland that I went to, then?

[Dread_Lord]

What's that enormous mound of hair, shoes and suitcases, and that partially destroyed concrete thing, doing in that field in Poland that I went to, then?

The answer is simple.
Remove hair.
Remove shoes.
Break random concrete thing in a field.
????
Holocaust.

Don't waste my time with questions you can figure out yourself if you applied the slightest fucking ounce of thought.

[alex chilton]

Well auctually they were exterminating the Jews well before the Death Camps. Google Einstanzgruppen. The chambers were only formulated at the Wansee Confrence in January of 1942 when they decided that there were too many Jews in their control and they were "going to win the war anyways" (not a assinine conclusion given the situation at the time).

The first paragraph is just :facepalm: . "Jews costing Germany WWI"? WTF?

Well actually the Jews had a tremendous influence in persuading President Wilson to enter the war. It was the bankers, the merchants, who were so largely invested in England and France that they had a lot to lose if Germany won the war. The rest of the country was either indifferent or pro-Germany. Most of these investors just happened to be of Jewish descent. But to say that the Jews alone cost Germany the war is quite a stretch; the real anger towards the Jews happened because of their economic status after WWI, because it seemed like evryone in Germany was suffering from the treaty of versailles, except those crafty, sneaky juden.

[ratfrink]

The answer is simple.
Remove hair.
Remove shoes.
Break random concrete thing in a field.
????
Holocaust.

Don't waste my time with questions you can figure out yourself if you applied the slightest fucking ounce of thought.

So all the evidenced mass deportations, all the forensic evidence which DOES exist BTW, all the train tracks, all the documentation, all the photographs, all the eyewitness reports, the fucking admission from Nazis and others who were implicit after the event - that's all a forgery?

And where are the honest Jews/other oppressed peoples who have said 'Hold on world, sorry but we made it up'. Where's the evidence that it's a Jewish forgery? Where's the bit of paper or the email titled 'Fake Auschwitz Stuff'?

Occam's Razor.

[Cory]

Well actually the Jews had a tremendous influence in persuading President Wilson to enter the war. It was the bankers, the merchants, who were so largely invested in England and France that they had a lot to lose if Germany won the war.

I wouldn't say it was nessarly "the Jews" but rather that it was the capitalist establishment in general which was responsible for America's entry to the war. They simply couldn't afford for their debts owed by Britian and France go unpaid. That and of course there were already close ties with the British elite in general and they didn't want Germany to dominate Europe. Realpolitik at it's best (well, or worst).

The rest of the country was either indifferent or pro-Germany.

I don't think this is true. Even as early as 1906 President TR was warning that "Japan and Germany" were the greatest long-term threats to the United States. Also I'm pretty sure most in America were pro-british (especially after the whole "For Belgium!" propaganda line from the British). Not so much the strong German communisty, but they didn't want to be targeted.

The real anger towards the Jews happened because of their economic status after WWI, because it seemed like everyone in Germany was suffering from the treaty of versailles, except those crafty, sneaky juden.

But the only problem is that it was just a rightist myth at the time exploited for political reasons. They suffered as well.

[Dread_Lord]

So all the evidenced mass deportations, all the forensic evidence which DOES exist BTW, all the train tracks, all the documentation, all the photographs, all the eyewitness reports, the fucking admission from Nazis and others who were implicit after the event - that's all a forgery?

So, let's get into context here. Holocaust Revisionism (known as denial by detractors) has only a few gripes with the holocaust story. Despite what most believe, in their infinite ignorance of the holocaust as well as revisionism, we do not deny that Jews died. You understand?
We do not believe there were gas chambers.
We do not believe 12 million, or 6 million Jews were killed.
We do not believe that there was ever any plan to systematically kill Non Jews or Jews in these camps.

So to answer your claims categorically I say this:
1. The deportations are provable fact. No one denies deportation.
2. There is no forensic evidence. When I said 99% of the evidence (forensic) does not exist I wasn't pulling figures out of my ass. That is a direct quotation from Robert Jan Van Pelt, a Holocaust Historian who actually testified in the Irving vs. Lipstadt & penguin books libel case as a holocaust expert. So you can take it from both us revisionists and the holocaustians that there is no forensic evidence.
3. Yes, the Nazis owned and used trains.
4. Documentation would count as forensic evidence, now wouldn't it.
5. So would photographs.
6. The eyewitnesses are former prisoners of the Nazi government. Not only are they going to inform their "saviors" of how "evil" their captors were but as time goes by they're going to spice up their survival stories, and it certainly has paid off. $$$!
7. Confessions ordered through torture. In fact the Jew that tortured Rudolf Hoss, the commandant of Auschwitz, wrote a book about it. Chutzpah at it's finest.
They love to tout these little "confessions" as proof, though if we are doing that I can tell you a story about a lot of Christian children that Jews have confessed to ritualistically murdering throughout the ages. After they were tortured of course....

But aside from that the people who were not actually caught immediately, like Eichmann or Mengele, left memoirs. Mengele denied everything and he didn't even have to. He was accused of being the "Angel of Death", but in his memoirs (diary) he denied it and the experiments they claimed happened.
As for Eichmann he gives detailed accounts as to why the confessions extracted from Hoss by torture are complete bullshit. David Irving actually wrote about it, you can google it.



And where are the honest Jews/other oppressed peoples who have said 'Hold on world, sorry but we made it up'. Where's the evidence that it's a Jewish forgery? Where's the bit of paper or the email titled 'Fake Auschwitz Stuff'?

Occam's Razor.

Quite a bit have confessed their personal stories were made up and embellished upon. Though, just because you asked, the very first holocaust revisionist (denier) was an inmate in the camps himself. His name was Paul Rassinier and he wrote books about it.

As for our Forensic evidence, google "lectures on the holocaust" by Germar Rudolf, he makes copies available free from Vho.org.
Oh, in case you're wondering, before he was made out to be an anti Semite villain Germar was at the Max Planck Institute as a chemist.
The book is one of the best on holocaust revisionism I have ever read.

Thanks for wasting some of my life with your ignorance about the holocaust and holocaust revisionism.

[ratfrink]

^ alright, I'm convinced.

[alex chilton]

I don't think this is true. Even as early as 1906 President TR was warning that "Japan and Germany" were the greatest long-term threats to the United States. Also I'm pretty sure most in America were pro-british (especially after the whole "For Belgium!" propaganda line from the British). Not so much the strong German communisty, but they didn't want to be targeted.

TR was a goddamn war-mongerer with no real substance behind that warning. I mean, Japan maybe, just because they had interests in the Pacific and had just defeated the Russians. But Germany? The U.S. and Germany were practically allies in 1906; at the least, they had a strong trading relationship. Both countries were invested in each other.

But regardless, the president's stance hardly reflects the people's. Keep in mind how many German and Irish immigrants there were in the country in 1914. And all of them were pro-Germany. Then consider how many were indifferent/antiwar. What was Wilson's campaign slogan? "He Kept Us OUT of War"? Thats precisely why he won the election. If most people were pro-British like you say, then why the hell would they elect a president who didn't want to get involved?

[Cory]

But regardless, the president's stance hardly reflects the people's. Keep in mind how many German and Irish immigrants there were in the country in 1914. And all of them were pro-Germany. Then consider how many were indifferent/antiwar. What was Wilson's campaign slogan? "He Kept Us OUT of War"? Thats precisely why he won the election. If most people were pro-British like you say, then why the hell would they elect a president who didn't want to get involved?

The economic elite in America were very muc pro-British from the opening days of the war. Also German/Irish immigrants may be a strong force in the major cities of the Northeast but outside of that they are hardly present (cirica 1917). Although most Americans were swayed pro-British (thanks mostly to propaganda), they still didn't want to send Americans to die "over there".

[Dread_Lord]

^ alright, I'm convinced.

Location: Coventry/York

Not a good choice of words. In Europe the laws usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust. Anything less is either a crime or going to be a crime.
Especially if you're a white boy.

[ratfrink]

^ uh. Actually the UK has rejected all Holocaust denial laws. Twice. Incitement of racial hatred is a crime, and rightfully so, but hey, you aren't a racist are ya?

[Dread_Lord]

^ uh. Actually the UK has rejected all Holocaust denial laws. Twice. Incitement of racial hatred is a crime, and rightfully so, but hey, you aren't a racist are ya?

Read what I said closer, and yes, I am a racist.

[testerman]

There was a jewish prophecy back in 1918 that 6 million jews would have to be killed and then the state of israel would be founded. well, it seems like they were intent on manufacturing this historical event, whether it really happened or not, so they could fulfill that prophecy. I wonder what their god thinks of this fakery.

[Dread_Lord]

There was a jewish prophecy back in 1918 that 6 million jews would have to be killed and then the state of israel would be founded. well, it seems like they were intent on manufacturing this historical event, whether it really happened or not, so they could fulfill that prophecy. I wonder what their god thinks of this fakery.

I read that too but I haven't seen the source of that claim so I dunno. I do know that in WWI they were claiming the same thing and asking for money which they turned around and used to fuel the communist revolution in Russia.

[Mr.Happy]

Anybody who genuinely denies the Holocaust is an idiot. Not worth my time or anybody else's.

Are some elements exaggerated or even falsified? Quite possibly. A wealth of evidence is bound to contain a few flaws. But the vast majority is clear for all to see. There's only one conclusion to arrive at about the Holocaust.

The Holocaust is primarily taught in Western nations because a) it's a stupendously powerful example of genocide, both in terms of sociopolitical impact and death toll, and one with a hell of a lot of interrelated information to add educational context, and b) it's the most relevant to those nations. You can't teach every example, not in any kind of meaningful detail. FWIW, my education covered a hell of a lot of Russian history, including Stalin and the atrocities that fall within that topic, and touched upon others within other courses as well (including British concentration camps in the Boer war, so it wasn't really a one-sided education). But do you think that, say, the Armenian genocide should be taught in its stead? Or that both should be taught, with a corresponding drop in the depth of historical study?

[Dread_Lord]

Anybody who genuinely denies the Holocaust is an idiot. Not worth my time or anybody else's.

Really? Go ahead and list for us your extensive knowledge of holocaust revisionism. I don't think you have any.

[ratfrink]

Read what I said closer
In Europe the laws
Stop, pan-European laws? There are none regarding Holocaust denial. And most countries in which there is a law, the law is against denial of crimes against humanity (Soviet genocides, Bosnian genocides, Spanish civil war etc) not solely and specifically the Holocaust (although in Germany and Austria there are specific anti-Nazism laws, and anti-facist laws in a few other countries). You're making an enormous and erroneous generalisation.

usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust.
Oh please. Even the strictest denazification rules only prohibit the denial or coarse minimisation of the Holocaust. They don't even mention Jews. You're not allowed to incite racial hatred either by speech, text, or symbols, but the idea that there's a single law in any country in the EU which enforces positive discrimination against Jews is utter fucking bullshit.



Anything less is either a crime or going to be a crime.
Rubbish. Out of the 27 member states of the EU, a mere 14 have genocide denial laws (and please remember that the Holocaust was not the only genocide in Europe in the last 100 years), and only 3 have specific Holocaust denial laws. Like I've said, the UK has already twice rejected genocide denial laws and in 2008 it famously would famously not allow Germany to extradite holocaust denier Frederick Toben. And furthermore, in Spain, genocide denial has been changed from illegal to legal (although justifying any genocide is racial hatred and illegal). With that in mind I don't know how on earth you can say that Holocaust denial will soon become illegal in the UK. It's pure speculation.

[Mr.Happy]

Really? Go ahead and list for us your extensive knowledge of holocaust revisionism. I don't think you have any.

I don't need extensive knowledge of your crackpot conspiracy theories when the evidence that they're invalid is so overwhelmingly obvious.

Not to mention the fact that every conspiracy theory is a broad spectrum of the vaguely reasonable, utterly ludicrous and impressively ill-informed; trying to pin down the beliefs of holocaust deniers is like trying to pin down the beliefs of the 9/11 truth movement.

EDIT: Ratfrink's response to your impressively ill-informed beliefs about pan-European Holocaust denial laws is a good example of the latter category, your post #90 is occasionally illustrative of the former category, and your implication that 99% of forensic evidence relating to the Holocaust doesn't exist (wtf does that even mean, semantically? how can 99% of evidence not exist?) a perfect characterization of the "utterly ludicrous" option.

[Dread_Lord]

Why must people always argue with me.

Stop, pan-European laws?
And most countries in which there is a law, the law is against denial of crimes against humanity (Soviet genocides, Bosnian genocides, Spanish civil war etc) not solely and specifically the Holocaust (although in Germany and Austria there are specific anti-Nazism laws, and anti-facist laws in a few other countries). You're making an enormous and erroneous generalisation.

First, it's not just Austria.
Second, what the laws say and how they address genocide or holocaust specifically are irrelevant to what I said. I said "usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust." and this is in fact the case.
You can get fucked over by a law that doesn't even mention Nazism just the same as you could against one specifically tailored to Nazism.
So maybe read what I said but read it again, and this time very slowly.



Oh please. Even the strictest denazification rules only prohibit the denial or coarse minimisation of the Holocaust. They don't even mention Jews. You're not allowed to incite racial hatred either by speech, text, or symbols, but the idea that there's a single law in any country in the EU which enforces positive discrimination against Jews is utter fucking bullshit.

"He who in public, orally, in writing or image, deliberately offends a group of people because of their race, their religion or beliefs, or their hetero- or homosexual orientation, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one year or a third category fine."

"Whoever publicly, by word, writing, image, gesture, acts of violence or any other manner, demeans or discriminates against an individual or a group of individuals because of their race, their ethnicity or their religion in a way which undermines human dignity, or on those bases, denies, coarsely minimizes or seeks to justify a genocide or other crimes against humanity [...] shall be punished with up to three years imprisonment or a fine.[43]"

Cool story bro.



Rubbish. Out of the 27 member states of the EU, a mere 14 have genocide denial laws (and please remember that the Holocaust was not the only genocide in Europe in the last 100 years), and only 3 have specific Holocaust denial laws. Like I've said, the UK has already twice rejected genocide denial laws and in 2008 it famously would famously not allow Germany to extradite holocaust denier Frederick Toben. And furthermore, in Spain, genocide denial has been changed from illegal to legal (although justifying any genocide is racial hatred and illegal). With that in mind I don't know how on earth you can say that Holocaust denial will soon become illegal in the UK. It's pure speculation.

Please remember that while the holocaust is not the only genocide it is still genocide and what I said still stands.

P.S. 14 out of 27 is more than half.

[Dread_Lord]

I don't need extensive knowledge of your crackpot conspiracy theories when the evidence that they're invalid is so overwhelmingly obvious.

Not to mention the fact that every conspiracy theory is a broad spectrum of the vaguely reasonable, utterly ludicrous and impressively ill-informed; trying to pin down the beliefs of holocaust deniers is like trying to pin down the beliefs of the 9/11 truth movement.

EDIT: Ratfrink's response to your impressively ill-informed beliefs about pan-European Holocaust denial laws is a good example of the latter category, your post #90 is occasionally illustrative of the former category, and your implication that 99% of forensic evidence relating to the Holocaust doesn't exist (wtf does that even mean, semantically? how can 99% of evidence not exist?) a perfect characterization of the "utterly ludicrous" option.

First, thank you for proving my point. You don't have a fucking clue what holocaust revisionism is and that's exactly what I said from the outset.
you're an idiot and nothing you said past the first sentence is worth reading.

[Mr.Happy]

^ cogent.

"Holocaust denial consists of claims that the genocide of Jews during World War II—usually referred to as the Holocaust—did not occur at all, or that it did not happen in the manner or to the extent historically recognized."

That's what I consider it to be, and what I considered it to be before I copy-pasted from the Wikipedia page. If you have an alternate definition... well, it's likely to be invalid.

http://images.memegenerator.net/Retard-Girl/ImageMacro/2300830/HERP-DERP.jpg

[Doc Norad]

Germany has always prided itself on its efficiency. The gas chambers didn't exist because the German's were heartless murderers, they were simply a product of the German ethos. The massive scale of the chambers only served to make human extermination more cost- and time-efficient.

The robotic efficiency of the German war machine led people to believe they were cold and uncaring. But, in reality, it was just Germans being Germans. Their superiors gave them their orders, and they carried them out in the most efficient way possible.

[Dread_Lord]

^ cogent.

"Holocaust denial consists of claims that the genocide of Jews did not happen to the extent historically recognized."


Fixed, retard. Holocaust denial does not state that it never happened. See, you're a fucking idiot, thanks for proving it.


That's what I consider it to be, and what I considered it to be before I copy-pasted from the Wikipedia page. If you have an alternate definition... well, it's likely to be invalid.


Well congratulations to you because you only got it half right, retard.

Keep talking about a subject you know nothing about, it makes you look intelligent. No, really.

I'm guessing your knowledge on the holocaustianity story itself is less than impressive as well.

[Dread_Lord]

Come on bitches, type faster so we can get this over with already.

[ratfrink]

First, it's not just Austria.
I said Austria and Germany. Read the fucking post. They are the only countries which have specific anti Nazi laws. Romania also prohibits facist slogans or symbols under which Nazism would be included.



Second, what the laws say and how they address genocide or holocaust specifically are irrelevant to what I said. I said "usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust." and this is in fact the case.
You can get fucked over by a law that doesn't even mention Nazism just the same as you could against one specifically tailored to Nazism.
So maybe read what I said but read it again, and this time very slowly.

How is 'speaking of the Jews with adoration' enforced by any law? Please pick out the law in which you have to be pro-semitic when talking about the Holocaust. You are perfectly entitled to talk about the Holocaust without 'adoring' the Jews. You can speak matter-of-factly about it just so long as you don't incite racial hatred or willfully disrespect any of the peoples that it oppressed. And hell, in almost half of Europe, you can say whatever the fuck you want about it, so long as you aren't actively racist.




"He who in public, orally, in writing or image, deliberately offends a group of people because of their race, their religion or beliefs, or their hetero- or homosexual orientation, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one year or a third category fine."

"Whoever publicly, by word, writing, image, gesture, acts of violence or any other manner, demeans or discriminates against an individual or a group of individuals because of their race, their ethnicity or their religion in a way which undermines human dignity, or on those bases, denies, coarsely minimizes or seeks to justify a genocide or other crimes against humanity [...] shall be punished with up to three years imprisonment or a fine.[43]"

Cool story bro.

Once again, how does that enforce positive discrimination? Do you know what positive discrimination is, by the way? Where does it say that you have to pro-semitic? All it says is that you aren't allowed, basically, to be actively racist.





P.S. 14 out of 27 is more than half.

Fuck, you've backtracked a long way since "In Europe the laws"! It's half-a-country over halfway, yes. I don't think you can say that Europe in general prohibits either Holocaust or genocide denial, and you definitely can't say that the UK does.

Nice to see you ignored what I said about the UK and Spain. I guess that means you've conceded that Europe is not becoming increasingly anti-holocaust-denial, which is more of your bullshit speculation.

[Dread_Lord]

I said Austria and Germany. Read the fucking post. They are the only countries which have specific anti Nazi laws. Romania also prohibits facist slogans or symbols under which Nazism would be included.

Actually a few others as well specifically list holocaust denial or "crimes committed by" Nazis during WWII. Keep digging.

But once again, because you clearly didn't grasp it the first time, the laws still affect holocaust denial. It in no way changes the validity of my original statement.

Just as an aside, how about all those communist genocide deniers, eh? Hear they're just rounding them up in droves over there.


How is 'speaking of the Jews with adoration' enforced by any law? Please pick out the law in which you have to be pro-semitic when talking about the Holocaust. You are perfectly entitled to talk about the Holocaust without 'adoring' the Jews. You can speak matter-of-factly about it just so long as you don't incite racial hatred or willfully disrespect any of the peoples that it oppressed. And hell, in almost half of Europe, you can say whatever the fuck you want about it, so long as you aren't actively racist.

I've already posted two such laws which specifically point out why your claims in the above quoted are incorrect.

Aside from laws, you should really open your eyes and pay attention. People who speak about Jewish power or express concern about the Jews and their behaviors are often ruined financially and socially even where law doesn't apply. Often times using court systems and subversive tactics to accomplish the goal. Ask David Irving.



Once again, how does that enforce positive discrimination? Do you know what positive discrimination is, by the way? Where does it say that you have to pro-semitic? All it says is that you aren't allowed, basically, to be actively racist.

Go ahead and try to be anti semitic.






Fuck, you've backtracked a long way since "In Europe the laws"! It's half-a-country over halfway, yes. I don't think you can say that Europe in general prohibits either Holocaust or genocide denial, and you definitely can't say that the UK does.

Actually what I said was "In Europe the laws usually.
You're going to have to brush up on your reading comprehension. I would say more than half qualifies that statement wouldn't you?

In fact I DID say that very thing, and it's the truth and you have yet to show otherwise. Deal with it.


Nice to see you ignored what I said about the UK and Spain. I guess that means you've conceded that Europe is not becoming increasingly anti-holocaust-denial, which is more of your bullshit speculation.

I didn't even read it to be honest. You're clearly not reading my posts why should I read yours. Or if you are reading my posts I feel very sad for you because you are terrible at comprehension.

Here I will highlight some words to help you out.

"Not a good choice of words. In Europe the laws usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust. Anything less is either a crime or going to be a crime.
Especially if you're a white boy."


P.S.

"As a result a compromise has been reached within the EU and while the EU has not prohibited Holocaust denial outright, a maximum term of three years in jail is optionally available to all member nations for "denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes."

That includes the U.K. and the rest of the EU. This law was intentionally put in place to provide laws against holocaust denial, btw. It was pointed out in all the major articles about it at the time.


Anyone else?

[ratfrink]

Actually a few others as well specifically list holocaust denial or "crimes committed by" Nazis during WWII. Keep digging.
Anti nazism laws =! anti holocaust laws =! anti genocide laws.



I've already posted two such laws which specifically point out why your claims in the above quoted are incorrect.
I don't see it. Being anti-semitic is different from not being pro-semitic. You said the laws force people to be pro-semitic; they do not. They simply prohibit them from being anti-semitic.



Aside from laws, you should really open your eyes and pay attention. People who speak about Jewish power or express concern about the Jews and their behaviors are often ruined financially and socially even where law doesn't apply. Often times using court systems and subversive tactics to accomplish the goal. Ask David Irving.
Quite a claim. Evidence?




Go ahead and try to be anti semitic.

Being anti-semitic is different from not being pro-semitic. You said the laws force people to be pro-semitic; they do not. They simply prohibit them from being anti-semitic.







Actually what I said was "In Europe the laws usually.
You're going to have to brush up on your reading comprehension. I would say more than half qualifies that statement wouldn't you?

In fact I DID say that very thing, and it's the truth and you have yet to show otherwise. Deal with it.

Generally = usually, yes. I wouldn't say that 52% could be reliably said to be 'usually'. What people usually by usually is 'almost always', and also you were specifically addressing me as a resident of the UK, where there are absolutely no denial laws of any kind.



I didn't even read it to be honest. You're clearly not reading my posts why should I read yours. Or if you are reading my posts I feel very sad for you because you are terrible at comprehension.

Here I will highlight some words to help you out.

"Not a good choice of words. In Europe the laws usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust. Anything less is either a crime or going to be a crime.
Especially if you're a white boy."

Eurgh. Well maybe you should bother reading it because it explicitly proves that Holocaust denial or genocide denial laws are NOT increasing in Europe, in fact, the opposite is happening. So your highlighted statement is wrong.

[ratfrink]

P.S.

"As a result a compromise has been reached within the EU and while the EU has not prohibited Holocaust denial outright, a maximum term of three years in jail is optionally available to all member nations for "denying or grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes."

That includes the U.K. and the rest of the EU. This law was intentionally put in place to provide laws against holocaust denial, btw. It was pointed out in all the major articles about it at the time.


Who's got shit comprehension now? 48% of member states do not recognise that law. It does not include the UK.

[Cito]

I dont deny the holocaust happened

but the numbers they give are so artifically inflated it's really a joke, there was nowhere near that many jews, hell there was a documentary where they measured the square feet and if they had people standing on each others shoulders at each camp it still would be impossible.

[Bobweirsucks]

i've heard first hand accounts from survivors. it was a genocide and anyone who argues that, "it wasn't that bad" is retarded. seriouslt Dark_Lord, grow the fuck up. you should find another hobby besides being an ignorant asshole. How bout fishing?

[Dread_Lord]

Anti nazism laws =! anti holocaust laws =! anti genocide laws.

I never said anything about anti nazism laws originally, you did. How many times must it be said?
Though we certainly all know David Irving, Robert Faurisson, Ernst Zundel, Frederick Toben, Germar Rudolf, etc. etc. etc. Were not arrested and imprisoned for denying the Armenian genocide, now don't we?
It's pretty clear just where these laws are directed and most enforced.



I don't see it. Being anti-semitic is different from not being pro-semitic. You said the laws force people to be pro-semitic; they do not. They simply prohibit them from being anti-semitic.

That's what I said. I said that laws suggest you speak adoringly about Jews or the holocaust story (which isn't the best way to say that particular bit but whatever) or that there would eventually be laws that made it so where they do not currently exist.

As for some inbetween...I don't see one. You're either pro something or anti. If you're neutral you're not part of the equation.
How do you imagine that a (lets make up a word here) "neutral-semite" would fit into what I said? What could they possibly have to say that the law would be interested in?


Quite a claim. Evidence?


Ask David Irving.
See Irving vs. Penguin books. Read the trial transcripts or his man articles about it on his website.




Being anti-semitic is different from not being pro-semitic. You said the laws force people to be pro-semitic; they do not. They simply prohibit them from being anti-semitic.

No I did not. I said that the laws suggest that you speak adoringly about Jews or not at all, to sum it up.
I'm trying to imagine the scenario where you're speaking in a manner that is neither pro or anti about Jews.
Guy1: yo, how bout those Jews.
Guy2: yeah, how about them.
Guy1: they sure are Jewish.
Guy2: that's for sure, let's go get some drinks.
How do you imagine these "Neutral - Semite" conversations go?
Though if this is your grand point that the laws allow people to speak neutrally and Positively about Jews but never badly then um, ok, I guess. I don't know if you realize it but that still doesn't sound to pleasant.


Generally = usually, yes. I wouldn't say that 52% could be reliably said to be 'usually'. What people usually by usually is 'almost always', and also you were specifically addressing me as a resident of the UK, where there are absolutely no denial laws of any kind.

Yet.


Eurgh. Well maybe you should bother reading it because it explicitly proves that Holocaust denial or genocide denial laws are NOT increasing in Europe, in fact, the opposite is happening. So your highlighted statement is wrong.


I don't see how the actions of 2 states is proof of anything.

[Dread_Lord]

Who's got shit comprehension now? 48% of member states do not recognise that law. It does not include the UK.

That's true, my bad I misread.

[Dread_Lord]

i've heard first hand accounts from survivors. it was a genocide and anyone who argues that, "it wasn't that bad" is retarded. seriouslt Dark_Lord, grow the fuck up. you should find another hobby besides being an ignorant asshole. How bout fishing?


Seriously dude, you're in over your head here. I've years of studying this subject, you've probably watched anne frank once and have the nerve to call me the ignorant asshole?
Get a life.

yes, there was genocidal acts committed by the Germans against COMMUNIST in the Eastern Front. It's not their fault these communist instigators happened to be mostly Jewish.

But as for the gas chambers and systematic planned murder and 12 million murdered? Didn't fucking happen.

By the way, I am not Dark Lord, so if Dark Lord is in here posting too and I didn't see I apologize, but if you are referring to me, it's Dread Lord.

[ratfrink]

but the numbers they give are so artifically inflated it's really a joke, there was nowhere near that many jews, hell there was a documentary where they measured the square feet and if they had people standing on each others shoulders at each camp it still would be impossible.

Dread_Lord - In Europe, depending on the numbers, saying this could well be perfectly legal.

States that prohibit any form of genocide denial (with or without explicitly pertaining to the Holocaust) -
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Czech Republic
Germany
Poland
Romania
Luxembourg

States that allow revisionism but do not allow 'coarse minimisation' or 'trivialisation' of genocides
Austria
Belgium
Hungary
Liechtenstein
Switzerland

States in which the only crime is not acknowledging the existence of genocides (i.e. you can minimise the Holocaust as much as you like, so long as you agree it happened - and you say yourself that Holocaust deniers agree that the Holocaust did happen)
France
The Netherlands
Portugal

And in all other countries, you can deny to any extent that you want.

[Dread_Lord]

Dread_Lord - In Europe, depending on the numbers, saying this could well be perfectly legal.

States that prohibit any form of genocide denial (with or without explicitly pertaining to the Holocaust) -
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Czech Republic
Germany
Poland
Romania
Luxembourg

States that allow revisionism but do not allow 'coarse minimisation' or 'trivialisation' of genocides
Austria
Belgium
Hungary
Liechtenstein
Switzerland

States in which the only crime is not acknowledging the existence of genocides (i.e. you can minimise the Holocaust as much as you like, so long as you agree it happened - and you say yourself that Holocaust deniers agree that the Holocaust did happen)
France
The Netherlands
Portugal

And in all other countries, you can deny to any extent that you want.

Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder if we compared the area of those countries and their populations which would be higher. The states with or without. What do you think just by looking at them off the top of your head?

[ratfrink]

I never said anything about anti nazism laws originally, you did. How many times must it be said?
Though we certainly all know David Irving, Robert Faurisson, Ernst Zundel, Frederick Toben, Germar Rudolf, etc. etc. etc. Were not arrested and imprisoned for denying the Armenian genocide, now don't we?
It's pretty clear just where these laws are directed and most enforced.
That's a matter of interpretation. Sure, the laws are most applicable towards the Holocaust, but they certainly do apply to other genocides as well. Hence some countries having laws specifically pertaining to communist genocides.




That's what I said. I said that laws suggest you speak adoringly about Jews or the holocaust story (which isn't the best way to say that particular bit but whatever) or that there would eventually be laws that made it so where they do not currently exist.

As for some inbetween...I don't see one. You're either pro something or anti. If you're neutral you're not part of the equation.
How do you imagine that a (lets make up a word here) "neutral-semite" would fit into what I said? What could they possibly have to say that the law would be interested in?


I'm wholeheartedly neutral-semitic. The issue I have is that you specifically said that laws were in place in Europe which suggest you to be pro-semitic. I don't think they do.



Ask David Irving.
See Irving vs. Penguin books. Read the trial transcripts or his man articles about it on his website.

I'll look into it




No I did not. I said that the laws suggest that you speak adoringly about Jews or not at all, to sum it up.
I'm trying to imagine the scenario where you're speaking in a manner that is neither pro or anti about Jews.
Guy1: yo, how bout those Jews.
Guy2: yeah, how about them.
Guy1: they sure are Jewish.
Guy2: that's for sure, let's go get some drinks.
How do you imagine these "Neutral - Semite" conversations go?
Though if this is your grand point that the laws allow people to speak neutrally and Positively about Jews but never badly then um, ok, I guess. I don't know if you realize it but that still doesn't sound to pleasant.

Yes it is my point. The entire reason I'm in this debate at all is because you said that laws are in place which suggest you have to be pro-semitic.



Yet.
If they've rejected it twice I think it's fair to say that they won't accept it in the forseeable future. Especially not with a predominantly right-wing government.




I don't see how the actions of 2 states is proof of anything.
The actions of two states is much better proof than the pure speculation that you keep touting!

[Dread_Lord]

That's a matter of interpretation. Sure, the laws are most applicable towards the Holocaust, but they certainly do apply to other genocides as well. Hence some countries having laws specifically pertaining to communist genocides.

which are irrelevant to this conversation.


I'm wholeheartedly neutral-semitic. The issue I have is that you specifically said that laws were in place in Europe which suggest you to be pro-semitic. I don't think they do.

lol, okay but what does that have to do with what I said? Really now? I think what I originally said covers the neutral as well. You either speak in favor of them or you don't speak at all. This would, naturally, not be a problem for the neutral as they wouldn't have word one to say. All that is left is speaking unfavorably about Jews.



I'll look into it

I'm not convinced.





Yes it is my point. The entire reason I'm in this debate at all is because you said that laws are in place which suggest you have to be pro-semitic.

How about this. We will revise what I said to say the following, to make you happy.

"In Europe the laws usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration or neutrality when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust."

Though how one addresses an issue whilst being neutral is beyond me. What more cold they possibly have to speak about other than the words "I don't care"?



If they've rejected it twice I think it's fair to say that they won't accept it in the forseeable future. Especially not with a predominantly right-wing government.

Really? Because historically Jews have been banned from, I believe, every country in Europe. Some countries they have been banned from multiple times.
Point is, things change. Especially politicians.




The actions of two states is much better proof than the pure speculation that you keep touting!

And you're not speculating that the political status of Spain and UK will remain the same? That shit ain't gonna last.

[ratfrink]

Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder if we compared the area of those countries and their populations which would be higher. The states with or without. What do you think just by looking at them off the top of your head?

Let's see

Bosnia and Herzegovina 4,600,000
Czech Republic 10,500,000
Germany 82,000,000
Poland 38,000,000
Romania 22,200,000
Luxembourg 500,000
Total number of no-revisionists = 157,800,000

Austria 8,400,000
Belgium 10,800,000
Hungary 10,000,000
Liechtenstein 36,000
Switzerland 7,800,000
Total minor revisionists = 37,036,000

France 65,400,000
The Netherlands 16,600,000
Portugal 11,300,000
Total major revisionists = 93,300,000

Rest of Europe
Total number total revisionists = 213,872,000

Total EU populations = 501,260,000

[Dread_Lord]

Let's see

Bosnia and Herzegovina 4,600,000
Czech Republic 10,500,000
Germany 82,000,000
Poland 38,000,000
Romania 22,200,000
Luxembourg 500,000
Total number of no-revisionists = 157,800,000

Austria 8,400,000
Belgium 10,800,000
Hungary 10,000,000
Liechtenstein 36,000
Switzerland 7,800,000
Total minor revisionists = 37,036,000

France 65,400,000
The Netherlands 16,600,000
Portugal 11,300,000
Total major revisionists = 93,300,000

Rest of Europe
Total number total revisionists = 213,872,000

Total EU populations = 501,260,000

I wasn't that curious lol. I wasn't even sure where it was going but something is nagging at me about it. There's something to 3/5 of the EU population being subjected to ridiculous fucking laws that I can't put my finger on, aside from them being subjected to the laws in the first place of course.

[ratfrink]

which are irrelevant to this conversation.
I'll agree that it's relatively unimportant. I might come back to it.



lol, okay but what does that have to do with what I said? Really now? I think what I originally said covers the neutral as well. You either speak in favor of them or you don't speak at all. This would, naturally, not be a problem for the neutral as they wouldn't have word one to say. All that is left is speaking unfavorably about Jews.

How about this. We will revise what I said to say the following, to make you happy.

"In Europe the laws usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration or neutrality when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust."

Though how one addresses an issue whilst being neutral is beyond me. What more cold they possibly have to speak about other than the words "I don't care"?

Well they could talk about the holocaust in terms of purely statistics rather than emotionally (like most historians), or they could talk about sensible revisionism as is legal in most of Europe.

I still don't agree that the laws suggest that you speak with admiration. Even the strictest laws don't require you to be anything except not a denialist.


Really? Because historically Jews have been banned from, I believe, every country in Europe. Some countries they have been banned from multiple times.
Point is, things change. Especially politicians.
Er, they've also been unbanned from every country in Europe. Do you honestly believe that in the forseeable future there will be nationalised antisemitism in any western country? And if your point is 'things change' then what's the point in debating at all? It might all be outdated tomorrow! Things do change, but they change slowly enough that we can know what's going on; currently and for the forseeable future Europe will not be anti-semitic.





And you're not speculating that the political status of Spain and UK will remain the same? That shit ain't gonna last.
Okay dude, the current trend is that anti-genocide-denial laws are decreasing. Happy with that?

[Mr.Happy]

Fixed, retard. Holocaust denial does not state that it never happened. See, you're a fucking idiot, thanks for proving it.

Well congratulations to you because you only got it half right, retard.

Keep talking about a subject you know nothing about, it makes you look intelligent. No, really.

I'm guessing your knowledge on the holocaustianity story itself is less than impressive as well.

See, this is what I mean. Your personal definition might not include denying that it ever happened, but there are plenty of people out there calling themselves Holocaust 'revisionists' who deny that the whole thing even occurred. You don't have a monopoly on the definition of the term, nor do you have any authority to define it.

I could talk for hours about the Holocaust and the surrounding history. Our history teachers were huge on the Nazis. I read outside the subject too, it interested me greatly at the time (although I preferred Russian history). But of course, my years of formal education at a highly-regarded school are no match for your Internet knowledge, 'cos they don't teach the truth in schools, maaan, it's like 'they' don't want you to know how the world really works and just feed you this pro-Jew ideology to reinforce Zionist control, you need to read conspiracy websites to really know how it went down.

[ratfrink]

I wasn't that curious lol. I wasn't even sure where it was going but something is nagging at me about it. There's something to 3/5 of the EU population being subjected to ridiculous fucking laws that I can't put my finger on, aside from them being subjected to the laws in the first place of course.

Well you said yourself that Holocaust denial is not the total denial of the Holocaust, but the denial of generally accepted figures. Therefore Holocaust denial is perfectly legal for major-revisionist countries (93,000,000) plus the 213,000,000 that don't have any laws in place, which means that 61% of the population of Europe are free to be Holocaust deniers.

[Dread_Lord]

Well they could talk about the holocaust in terms of purely statistics rather than emotionally (like most historians), or they could talk about sensible revisionism as is legal in most of Europe.

I still don't agree that the laws suggest that you speak with admiration. Even the strictest laws don't require you to be anything except not a denialist.

Okay, you try to sensibly explain to people why the forensic evidence gathered by people like Leuchter, Rudolf, Krege, etc. show the holocaust needs to be revised. I can tell you the response you would get and it sure won't be neutral.
Things don't work the way you think they do. Nearly a dozen revisionists have been put in prison proving that fact.

The laws shouldn't require you be anything. It's not sane to make such a law int he first place. It was deliberately put there to stifle conversation on the subject. It servers no other purpose. People don't need those laws to remind them genocide is bad, that's fucking ridiculous. The laws exist precisely to stifle objective study of the topic.


Er, they've also been unbanned from every country in Europe. Do you honestly believe that in the forseeable future there will be nationalised antisemitism in any western country? And if your point is 'things change' then what's the point in debating at all? It might all be outdated tomorrow! Things do change, but they change slowly enough that we can know what's going on; currently and for the forseeable future Europe will not be anti-semitic.


lol, what?
The whole point was that things change. If you notice, your 2 little examples there, don't hold a candle against the other countries that have accepted it.
You see, despite your claims, the odds have been going in the favor of holocaust revision laws the entire time. 2 examples aren't proof of anything. Neither example has shown that those lobbying for these laws have been slowed down or reversed, in fact all evidence simply shows victory after victory with a couple of exceptions.



Okay dude, the current trend is that anti-genocide-denial laws are decreasing. Happy with that?

No, that's not even remotely true.

[ratfrink]

Okay, you try to sensibly explain to people why the forensic evidence gathered by people like Leuchter, Rudolf, Krege, etc. show the holocaust needs to be revised. I can tell you the response you would get and it sure won't be neutral.
Things don't work the way you think they do. Nearly a dozen revisionists have been put in prison proving that fact.
In which countries were they imprisoned? Anyway, you're missing the point - you said that laws 'generally force you to be pro-semitic'. I've proved that generally, they do not. 61% of the population of Europe are legally allowed to be Holocaust deniers, by your own definition of the term.



The laws shouldn't require you be anything. It's not sane to make such a law int he first place. It was deliberately put there to stifle conversation on the subject. It servers no other purpose. People don't need those laws to remind them genocide is bad, that's fucking ridiculous. The laws exist precisely to stifle objective study of the topic.
Woah, again, you're missing the point. I'm not interested in WHY the laws exist at all. Personally I don't think they should. But what you said, specifically, was that 'laws generally suggest you to be pro-semitic'. This is the only thing I've taken issue with. I'll take your ignoring of my previous comments on it as acceptance that what you said is incorrect. 'Generally' isn't true as it only applies to 39% of the population. 'suggest you to be pro-semitic' is untrue as the laws allow you to be entirely neutral.



lol, what?
The whole point was that things change. If you notice, your 2 little examples there, don't hold a candle against the other countries that have accepted it.
You see, despite your claims, the odds have been going in the favor of holocaust revision laws the entire time. 2 examples aren't proof of anything. Neither example has shown that those lobbying for these laws have been slowed down or reversed, in fact all evidence simply shows victory after victory with a couple of exceptions.
I don't think you can call it 'victory after victory' if only 52% of states have laws in the first place, and a sizeable number of them have laws in which you're allowed to be a Holocaust denier!




No, that's not even remotely true.
Why not? 14/27 countries have no laws at all, two countries are actively rejecting laws.

[Dread_Lord]

In which countries were they imprisoned? Anyway, you're missing the point - you said that laws 'generally force you to be pro-semitic'. I've proved that generally, they do not. 61% of the population of Europe are legally allowed to be Holocaust deniers, by your own definition of the term.

Switzerland, Germany, Austria, France.
And we have so far shown that 3/5 of the population is actually not allowed to be holocaust revisionists.
As for what I said it goes as follows, since you apparently still have yet to read it.
In Europe the laws usually suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust. Anything less is either a crime or going to be a crime.



Woah, again, you're missing the point. I'm not interested in WHY the laws exist at all. Personally I don't think they should. But what you said, specifically, was that 'laws generally suggest you to be pro-semitic'. This is the only thing I've taken issue with. I'll take your ignoring of my previous comments on it as acceptance that what you said is incorrect. 'Generally' isn't true as it only applies to 39% of the population. 'suggest you to be pro-semitic' is untrue as the laws allow you to be entirely neutral.

Yes, I also said or going to be a crime.

What is the major malfunction? How hard is it to grasp what I said to you? Does this really take a 500 page book so you can get it through your head?

I have no clue what it is I have ignored of yours, and to be honest, I really don't care. The only figures that you've shown so far were regarding holocaust revisionism. This has nothing to do with speaking about Jews. The two are separate issues, so these figures do not apply and likewise the laws are different for each. And you got it backwards by the way. The 3/5 of the population actually CAN'T refuse to believe in the holocaust by law.



I don't think you can call it 'victory after victory' if only 52% of states have laws in the first place, and a sizeable number of them have laws in which you're allowed to be a Holocaust denier!

Yeah, usually when countries go from now having such laws to 52% of them having the laws that indicates that the laws are achieving success. Not sure how things work in the UK but that's how it works with the rest of the world.




Why not? 14/27 countries have no laws at all, two countries are actively rejecting laws.

You mean 13/27 countries.
Let's put it another. By your logic if I am traveling 27 miles per hour and I slow down by 2 I am now going in reverse whilst going forward at 25 miles per hour...

I just know you're not even going to grasp that analogy at all.

Anyways, I think I am done discussing this subject. It's irrelevant and I am tired.

[ratfrink]

Fucking hell. I've gone through this so many times. There was only one sentence which I took issue with. I'll break it down:

In Europe the laws usually
61% of the population are legally allowed to deny the Holocaust by your definition of being a Holocaust denier. 'Usually' you are perfectly entitled to be a Holocaust denier.

suggest that you must always speak with adoration when addressing any issues regarding Jews and/or the holocaust.
The laws, where they exist, simply require that you are not actively racist. They do not suggest that you have to be pro-semitic.

Anything less is either a crime or going to be a crime.
In the short term, the number of states/people subject to anti-Holocaust-denial laws is stable with a slight decrease. In the UK specifically, it's fair to say that in the forseeable future there will be no holocaust denial laws. And hey, like you said, 'things change', so I don't know how you can predict that it will be a crime in very European country.

[Dread_Lord]

Fucking hell. I've gone through this so many times. There was only one sentence which I took issue with. I'll break it down:


61% of the population are legally allowed to deny the Holocaust by your definition of being a Holocaust denier. 'Usually' you are perfectly entitled to be a Holocaust denier.

Which would be okay if I had not specifically said that where laws do not exist they are likely to exist in the future.
And once again, 61% of the population is NOT allowed to object to the current holocaust story.
There is nothing wrong with what I said, only with your mind. You have a confrontational personality and will argue about anything for the sake of arguing.


The laws, where they exist, simply require that you are not actively racist. They do not suggest that you have to be pro-semitic.


Didn't we already change this to include Neutral and Pro semitic?
How many times must we go over this?


In the short term, the number of states/people subject to anti-Holocaust-denial laws is stable with a slight decrease. In the UK specifically, it's fair to say that in the forseeable future there will be no holocaust denial laws. And hey, like you said, 'things change', so I don't know how you can predict that it will be a crime in very European country.

It's fair to say nothing of the sort. There has not been any indication that the refusal of these states to accept certain laws has slowed down or reversed the industry and lobbies that have interests in seeing the laws passed.

How can I predict it? It's easy. The lobby that wants to get these laws passed is more powerful, more organized, and is not going to stop.
It's that simple. It really is.
The holocaust industry is a cash business and they already have more than half of Europe under these laws.
What's so fucking hard for you to understand about this? It's not rocket science.
You're in denial.

[Mr.Happy]

Dread_Lord is exhibiting classic conspiracy theorist behaviour of making claims that can't be backed up (in this instance, that it'll soon be illegal to be a Holocaust denier in more and more European states, without showing any evidence of impending legislation and against current trends), refusing to properly acknowledge evidence that runs contrary to his (abolishment of laws, specific laws which differ to his interpretation of them) and repeating the same points over and over despite the refutations.

Doubtless he'll be claiming that the vast majority of Europeans are expressly forbidden by law to deny the Holocaust and expressly forced by law to be adoring towards Jews next time he gets in an argument with someone, despite the fact that his shit's been torn up.

Have you ever spoken to, or even listened to, a Holocaust survivor in real life?

[Satyr]

I believe that the Holocaust happened. Maybe not the way depicted, maybe there were less victims, who knows. The massgraves were found, as were the ovens and the gaschambers.

However, I think it's just plain immoral and hypocrit to make the denying of the Holocaust illegal. It goes right against Freedom of Speech. And it's hypocrit in that it is not illegal to deny any other genocide. After all, the Armenian Genocide is still denied by a lot of Turks, but they are not punished.

[Dread_Lord]

Dread_Lord is exhibiting classic conspiracy theorist behaviour of making claims that can't be backed up (in this instance, that it'll soon be illegal to be a Holocaust denier in more and more European states, without showing any evidence of impending legislation and against current trends), refusing to properly acknowledge evidence that runs contrary to his (abolishment of laws, specific laws which differ to his interpretation of them) and repeating the same points over and over despite the refutations.

That is if you don't count the fact that the laws have, in fact, expanded throughout Europe since WII and there is no evidence, whatsoever, that there is any intention of giving up the fight to have them expanded even further.
But yeah, just because the laws attempts in one or two countries failed that must mean that it's all bullshit. You're clearly a genius.


Doubtless he'll be claiming that the vast majority of Europeans are expressly forbidden by law to deny the Holocaust and expressly forced by law to be adoring towards Jews next time he gets in an argument with someone, despite the fact that his shit's been torn up.

Except that's not even remotely close to what I said here and have actually pointed that out roughly half a dozen times in this thread.


Have you ever spoken to, or even listened to, a Holocaust survivor in real life?

Sure, they travel around the US peddling their stories to school children and being paid with tax dollars to do so.
They all tell us how they survived by living with a pack of wolves, or hiding in a chimney with 56 of their relatives or some other ridiculous story only a complete fucking idiot like yourself would believe.


Here is an entire list of ridiculous stories you can read from holocaust survivors. Personally I only read them when I want to laugh.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t390908/

[Mr.Happy]

That is if you don't count the fact that the laws have, in fact, expanded throughout Europe since WII and there is no evidence, whatsoever, that there is any intention of giving up the fight to have them expanded even further.
But yeah, just because the laws attempts in one or two countries failed that must mean that it's all bullshit. You're clearly a genius.

Except that's not even remotely close to what I said here and have actually pointed that out roughly half a dozen times in this thread.

Sure, they travel around the US peddling their stories to school children and being paid with tax dollars to do so.
They all tell us how they survived by living with a pack of wolves, or hiding in a chimney with 56 of their relatives or some other ridiculous story only a complete fucking idiot like yourself would believe.

Here is an entire list of ridiculous stories you can read from holocaust survivors. Personally I only read them when I want to laugh.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t390908/

:whistle:

[Dread_Lord]

:whistle:

Whatever retard, go light candles to your shrine of the holocaust or masturbate to Anne Frank..whatever it is that you holocaustians do these days.

[Ron_Smythberg]

Whatever retard, go light candles to your shrine of the holocaust or masturbate to Anne Frank..whatever it is that you holocaustians do these days.

I'll just leave this here.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5564/dreadlordwanted.jpg

[Dread_Lord]

This thread now belongs to sad tales from the holocaust by Yehuda Abraham.

Today's sad Holocaust tale comes from Elsie V. Elsie V is, however, just a pseudonym, because she is still afraid of Nazis.

In 1941, Elsie's family had a feeling that the SS would be coming to kill the Jews. Because of that, they tried to hide some paintings. Then the SS men came.

They took her to a Gestapo house in Prague. Then she was deathmarched outside and put into cattle cars with other Jews. The evil Nazis tried to starve the Jews by making them wait 4 hours without food or drink.

Then the train arrived at Theresienstadt, a castle. "The Nazis did everything possible to keep their camps, and what took place in the camps, very secret." Of course, this implies letting the Red Cross inspect the camp, and having footage of it filmed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFSFZ6TkNZo

After they got out of the cattle cars, they were deathmarched into a basement. Elsie was forced to watch a Professor being beat to death, during which the evil Nazis laughed. In the basement, the Nazis took all the Jews' belongings.

While waiting for their names to be called out, in the basement, the Jews could see "open areas" in the wall, through which they were being watched, and, occasionally the Nazis would put their guns through, to shoot at people in the room. Around the room there was blood on the walls and floor.

The next morning, they were deathmarched to the castle. Both the many Jews who fell on the way, and the Jews who tried to help them, would get beat by the SS.

Inside they were taken to a stone room, where they had to sleep on cold stone floors, without heat or fresh water, and with only a bucket to use as a toilet.

After 2 days they were given Surprise Soap to wash themselves. This Surprise Soap "had a poison in it that gave many diarrhea, making them sick. Many died from this."

Elsie tells us that they would get deathmarched outside, where it was very cold for no reason other than to make Jews pass out.

Once during Christmas, Himmler showed up at the camp. On that special occasion, they were deathmarched outside and ordered to turn around in order to look at the trees. When Elsie turned, she saw many people hanging. Himmler was amused and wished the Jews "Merry Christmas!"

The evil Nazis inflicted a hysterectomy and breast reduction on her. Without anesthesia. Which caused her to pass out afterwards, and was left with an infected incision area. When the SS men would beat her, they targeted that area specifically.

Elsie heroically told an SS man that he will go to hell because he has the devil on his forehead. The officer laughed, but afterwards raised the butt of his rifle and shattered part of her skull with it. Which is why she has a metal plate in her today.

After waking up from the blow in the head, Elsie found herself in a small locked box, where she couldn't move. Which was full of blood. The Nazis would make her stay like that for 24 hours, with no water. Later an SS man took her out of the box, dragged her by the back of her neck, and threw her in a corner to die.

In the large stone room where the Jews lived, many would die every day. To survive, the Jews would steal the clothes of the corpses of other Jews, which were left there for many days because the Nazis wanted to kill the Jews with the corpses's stench.

As food, Jews were served green bread.

http://www.remember.org/witness/elsiev.html

[Dread_Lord]

I'll just leave this here.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5564/dreadlordwanted.jpg

Hey there Ron. Good to see you're still here, though if you're trying to pester me you would have better luck posting YOUR picture rather than mine.
Looking like you belong on a German WWII Jew propaganda poster.

[Ron_Smythberg]

Not trying to pester, just informing the masses.

[SHH]

Well actually the Jews had a tremendous influence in persuading President Wilson to enter the war. It was the bankers, the merchants, who were so largely invested in England and France that they had a lot to lose if Germany won the war. The rest of the country was either indifferent or pro-Germany. Most of these investors just happened to be of Jewish descent. But to say that the Jews alone cost Germany the war is quite a stretch; the real anger towards the Jews happened because of their economic status after WWI, because it seemed like evryone in Germany was suffering from the treaty of versailles, except those crafty, sneaky juden.

Germany was weird back then, the vast majority of bankers, doctors and lawyers were Jewish. But then the vast majority of Jews in Germany lived in ghettos and had it worse than most Christian Germans.

[Ron_Smythberg]

Germany was weird back then, the vast majority of bankers, doctors and lawyers were Jewish. But then the vast majority of Jews in Germany lived in ghettos and had it worse than most Christian Germans.

Its strange, but also quite amazing, how those who had been so discriminated against managed to rise to the top.

[Dread_Lord]

Not trying to pester, just informing the masses.

Oh, then me too.
http://tinypic.com/r/23wwt2e/7

[Ron_Smythberg]

Its amusing watching you try and manipulate simple HTML. And you call yourself one of the "Master Race". Lets see if you strike out ;)

[SHH]

Oh, then me too.
img89.imageshack.us/i/dersmythbe829bw.jpg

Oh, then me too.
http://img89.imageshack.us/f/dersmythbe829bw.jpg/

Double fail.

[Mr.Happy]

Whatever retard, go light candles to your shrine of the holocaust or masturbate to Anne Frank..whatever it is that you holocaustians do these days.

I bet you were beat up by a Jewish kid in school.

[Dread_Lord]

Its amusing watching you try and manipulate simple HTML. And you call yourself one of the "Master Race". Lets see if you strike out ;)

It's amusing watching you talk about shit you don't understand.
The forum is to blame, not me. the code I put is correct.

[Ron_Smythberg]

I bet you were beat up by a Jewish kid in school.

I almost regret emailing the ADL about him. He provides so much entertainment :muahaha: .

[Dread_Lord]

Double fail.

lol, retard, I was trying to vary the url because it's not working correctly.I put http: part first but it didn't work so I tried to taking out, now I am using another link. Nothing is working. It's the forums fault.

[Ron_Smythberg]

The forum is to blame, not me. the code I put is correct.[/QUOTE]

Okay i'll help you out.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4374/dersmythbe829bw.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/dersmythbe829bw.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

And don't think you could tell me the first thing about computer languages you fuckin caveman.

[Dread_Lord]

I almost regret emailing the ADL about him. He provides so much entertainment :muahaha: .

I almost regret giving your address to the KKK.

http://tinypic.com/r/23wwt2e/7

[Ron_Smythberg]

I almost regret giving your address to the KKK.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4374/dersmythbe829bw.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/dersmythbe829bw.jpg/)



Your welcome, mutt.

[Dread_Lord]

The forum is to blame, not me. the code I put is correct.

Okay i'll help you out.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4374/dersmythbe829bw.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/dersmythbe829bw.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

And don't think you could tell me the first thing about computer languages you fuckin caveman.

Thanks for helping me out, funny how your shit don't work either isn't it you fucking nigger?
Next time maybe you shouldn't fucking open your mouth so soon and avoid looking like a complete jackass.

Oh, and you don't code, so shut the fuck up you retard.

[Ron_Smythberg]

lol, retard, I was trying to vary the url because it's not working correctly.I put http: part first but it didn't work so I tried to taking out, now I am using another link. Nothing is working. It's the forums fault.

Go to school you leech of society.

[Ron_Smythberg]

Okay i'll help you out.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4374/dersmythbe829bw.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/dersmythbe829bw.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

And don't think you could tell me the first thing about computer languages you fuckin caveman.

Thanks for helping me out, funny how your shit don't work either isn't it you fucking nigger?
Next time maybe you shouldn't fucking open your mouth so soon and avoid looking like a complete jackass.[/QUOTE]

Worked alot better then your preschool attempts. Maybe you should permanently shut your mouth, and avoid rotting away in a 5 by 8 cell.

[Dread_Lord]

Go to school you leech of society.

You're just mad because you tried to look cool and when you posted an image it failed until I quoted it. You're a fucking idiot.

[Ron_Smythberg]

:muahaha:PS:

Your picture sucks.

[Dread_Lord]

Thanks for helping me out, funny how your shit don't work either isn't it you fucking nigger?
Next time maybe you shouldn't fucking open your mouth so soon and avoid looking like a complete jackass.

Worked alot better then your preschool attempts. Maybe you should permanently shut your mouth, and avoid rotting away in a 5 by 8 cell.[/QUOTE]

No, you fucking retard, it wasn't working at all until I quoted your post and then it started it working. It's bugged.

And as you can see by these fucked up quotes the bug is not limited to images.

[Ron_Smythberg]

You're just mad because you tried to look cool

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5564/dreadlordwanted.jpg

[Dread_Lord]

:muahaha:PS:

Your picture sucks.

Cool story bro.

[Dread_Lord]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5564/dreadlordwanted.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4374/dersmythbe829bw.jpg

[Ron_Smythberg]

No, you fucking retard, it wasn't working at all until I quoted your post and then it started it working. It's bugged.

And as you can see by these fucked up quotes the bug is not limited to images.

Haha. I love how your so quick to blame someone/something else for all your problems. Explains alot of the race stuff.

Oh and unclosed [ quote ] tags are not "computer bugs". You really are uneducated. Go jump off a cliff and go to valhella

[Dread_Lord]

Haha. I love how your so quick to blame someone/something else for all your problems. Explains alot of the race stuff.

Oh and unclosed [ quote ] tags are not "computer bugs". You really are uneducated. Go jump off a cliff and go to valhella

My fault for assuming that YOU would have gotten the [quote] codes right and thinking it was a bug.
It turns out that YOU did not get the quote right and the forum did nothing wrong with the quote.

It did, however, refuse to display my image multiple times.

You know, talking to you has reminded me how you have not once ever offered any type of on topic comments to a thread about the holocaust. You've always come in with Ad Hominem attacks on people. Why you haven't been banned for trolling is beyond me.

[Ron_Smythberg]

It did, however, refuse to display my image multiple times.

:muahaha:


http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5564/dreadlordwanted.jpg I need to import this back to photoshop and add "Stupidity" with the incitement of hatred crime.;)

[Dread_Lord]

:muahaha:


http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5564/dreadlordwanted.jpg I need to import this back to photoshop and add "Stupidity" with the incitement of hatred crime.;)

http://img718.imageshack.us/i/30609147.png/
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7936/30609147.png

You are truly a master of the internet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEAkChFGhVI)

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4374/dersmythbe829bw.jpg


Oh, and L O L at you putting it "back in photoshop".
http://www.glassgiant.com/wanted/

Glassgiant . com == photoshop

[Mr.Happy]

http://img718.imageshack.us/i/30609147.png/

No, no. Like this:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7936/30609147.png

[Dread_Lord]

No, no. Like this:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7936/30609147.png

That's bullshit right there cause mine should work. There is nothing wrong with my code or the link.

You gotta sign up for imageshack now or something or what?

P.S. Ron where did you go? We should sit and talk about the good old days.
http://www1.webng.com/nunezeata/

[Mr.Happy]

There is actually a problem with your link. Your link is to the image page, not the image. vB can't thumbnail a webpage. ImageShack tags its preview URLs with the filetype, which is what's leading you astray.

Click your image tag or paste your link; look on the right, where it has a list of URLs. The one that says 'direct' next to it is the one you want. Alternately, right-click the image in the box and select "copy image URL" (or whatever variation your browser has, "copy image location" maybe, not "copy image" 'cos that's the actual image file for editing) and paste that into the IMG tags.

[Ron_Smythberg]

There is actually a problem with your link. Your link is to the image page, not the image. vB can't thumbnail a webpage. ImageShack tags its preview URLs with the filetype, which is what's leading you astray.

Click your image tag or paste your link; look on the right, where it has a list of URLs. The one that says 'direct' next to it is the one you want. Alternately, right-click the image in the box and select "copy image URL" (or whatever variation your browser has, "copy image location" maybe, not "copy image" 'cos that's the actual image file for editing) and paste that into the IMG tags.

It would be quite optimistic to presume Dread_Lord has the capacity to understand any of this...

[Dread_Lord]

It would be quite optimistic to presume Dread_Lord has the capacity to understand any of this...

That's fucking retarded, it used to work just fine pasting the URL from the page.

No matter. I did make something for you though. It's a new zoklet sign in idea to determine if you're fit to be here or not.
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2208/nojews.png

It would be quite optimistic to presume mr. "photoshop" has the capacity to understand any of this...

[Bobweirsucks]

Seriously dude, you're in over your head here. I've years of studying this subject, you've probably watched anne frank once and have the nerve to call me the ignorant asshole?
By first hand account i mean family members of friends that aren't being payed by anyone to tell their story. Plus the ones that had suffered emotional damage so strong they could barely converse with anyone.


yes, there was genocidal acts committed by the Germans against COMMUNIST in the Eastern Front. It's not their fault these communist instigators happened to be mostly Jewish. derrr, UN definition of genocide doesn't refer to political groups. Plus do you think they whole thing about nazis and the aryan race is bullshit? there was ethnic cleansing, the nazis wanted to remove gays, gypsies, jews from society. that's genocide.

I've years of studying this subject
Get a life.
lol, like i said, fishing or golfing might be a better way to spend your time. or maybe you could actually try talking to someone of the opposite sex. maybe getting laid will make you realize how pointless your life has been.

By the way, I am not Dark Lord, so if Dark Lord is in here posting too and I didn't see I apologize, but if you are referring to me, it's Dread Lord.
I actually prefer dick lord

[Dread_Lord]

By first hand account i mean family members of friends that aren't being payed by anyone to tell their story. Plus the ones that had suffered emotional damage so strong they could barely converse with anyone.

don't worry, I will be posting hundreds of holocaust survival stories here that we can all view.




derrr, UN definition of genocide doesn't refer to political groups. Plus do you think they whole thing about nazis and the aryan race is bullshit? there was ethnic cleansing, the nazis wanted to remove gays, gypsies, jews from society. that's genocide.

Genocide: systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

You see, it pays to own a dictionary.



lol, like i said, fishing or golfing might be a better way to spend your time. or maybe you could actually try talking to someone of the opposite sex. maybe getting laid will make you realize how pointless your life has been.


I actually prefer dick lord

You say a lot of things and most of the time it's not worth reading.
You have not once offered one insightful comment about the holocaust. Not once. In fact you have not even said a single word that would lead anyone with an IQ over room temperature to believe that you know a single thing about the subject.

[Dread_Lord]

Today's sad holocaust tale comes from Pepkale Dodyk.

Pepkale was only 3 years old when the evil Nazi's and Ukranian police invaded her town. So her and dozens of others fled into a cave with disease carrying bats. But the Germans raided the cave, and captured Pepkale's family. The other Jews escaped through a hole they had dug. In the rocks. With their bare hands.

The Germans wanted the Ukranians to shoot Pepkale. But Usher offered his hidden stash of gold and silver to the Ukranians. So the Ukranians fired 5 shots over the heads of the Jews. They let Pepkale, her mother, and Usher live, but they killed the aunt and cousin.

So the jews found another cave. They lived in the cave for 2 years, sleeping 22 hours per day, to conserve energy, because the 38 people did not have any food.

The Ukranians tried to murder them by sealing the entrance to the cave, time and time again. The Ukranians were apparently unfamiliar with fire, and how it might adversely affect people hiding in a cave.

Then a message in a bottle came, and Pepkale and the 37 other Jews came out of the cave.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=1924568
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1145001/posts
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/...e08865&k=20037

Pekale's family, shortly after their 2 years of living in a cave.
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1931/stremer1tl.jpg

[ratfrink]

And once again, 61% of the population is NOT allowed to object to the current holocaust story.

Seriously? You've got it the wrong way around. I researched the statistics in the first place, I should know.

There are 13 countries with no laws at all (213,872,000) plus three countries in which the laws allow you to be a holocaust denier by your definition (that is, 'the holocaust happened, just the numbers are VERY wrong') (93,300,000). Total of 307,072,000/501,260,000 = 61% of the population is can legally deny the Holocaust. Plus a further 37,000,000 people in which their countries allow sensible revisionism.

A mere 157,000,000 or 31% of the population are subject to laws in which you cannot deny the Holocaust to any extend. Hence, when you said 'The laws usually' I disagreed - 'usually' the laws do not exist! You're hinging an argument on a false statistic.



Didn't we already change this to include Neutral and Pro semitic?
How many times must we go over this?

The last thing I said about it was:
Well they could talk about the holocaust in terms of purely statistics rather than emotionally (like most historians), or they could talk about sensible revisionism as is legal in most of Europe.

You made no response even though I specifically asked for one in a later thread.



It's fair to say nothing of the sort. There has not been any indication that the refusal of these states to accept certain laws has slowed down or reversed the industry and lobbies that have interests in seeing the laws passed.

How can I predict it? It's easy. The lobby that wants to get these laws passed is more powerful, more organized, and is not going to stop.
It's that simple. It really is.
The holocaust industry is a cash business and they already have more than half of Europe under these laws.
What's so fucking hard for you to understand about this? It's not rocket science.
You're in denial.
It's going to take a lot more than a few posts on a forum to convince me of a worldwide jewish holocaust conspiracy. But, I have ordered the famous 'Denying the Holocaust' off of Amazon; I presume it's a good general introduction for the general Holocaust denial thing, and if it sparks my interest (I'm sure this debate will raise its head again on Zoklet) we can discuss it further. Until then, I'm not going to talk about whether or not such laws will increase in Europe in the forseeable future.

[Dread_Lord]

Seriously? You've got it the wrong way around. I researched the statistics in the first place, I should know.

There are 13 countries with no laws at all (213,872,000) plus three countries in which the laws allow you to be a holocaust denier by your definition (that is, 'the holocaust happened, just the numbers are VERY wrong') (93,300,000). Total of 307,072,000/501,260,000 = 61% of the population is can legally deny the Holocaust. Plus a further 37,000,000 people in which their countries allow sensible revisionism.

A mere 157,000,000 or 31% of the population are subject to laws in which you cannot deny the Holocaust to any extend. Hence, when you said 'The laws usually' I disagreed - 'usually' the laws do not exist! You're hinging an argument on a false statistic.

Well that's because you're full of shit. Both France and Portugal have genocide denial laws. In fact France has imprisoned 3 people for holocaust revisionism. Lie some more why don't you.


The last thing I said about it was:
Well they could talk about the holocaust in terms of purely statistics rather than emotionally (like most historians), or they could talk about sensible revisionism as is legal in most of Europe.

You made no response even though I specifically asked for one in a later thread.

I did, in fact, make a response to that.



It's going to take a lot more than a few posts on a forum to convince me of a worldwide jewish holocaust conspiracy. But, I have ordered the famous 'Denying the Holocaust' off of Amazon; I presume it's a good general introduction for the general Holocaust denial thing, and if it sparks my interest (I'm sure this debate will raise its head again on Zoklet) we can discuss it further. Until then, I'm not going to talk about whether or not such laws will increase in Europe in the forseeable future.

That's nice, when you're done reading that stupid bitches babbling try reading this:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/loth/

It will actually be about holocaust revisionism and not about Deborah Dicklips psychotic fantasies about the holocaust.

Or you can choose one of the others.
http://vho.org/dl/ENG.html

[Ron_Smythberg]

That's fucking retarded, it used to work just fine pasting the URL from the page.

No matter. I did make something for you though. It's a new zoklet sign in idea to determine if you're fit to be here or not.
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2208/nojews.png

It would be quite optimistic to presume mr. "photoshop" has the capacity to understand any of this...

WOW! A C++ console application! I see you've finally entered the ninth grade, Robby.

[Dread_Lord]

WOW! A C++ console application! I see you've finally entered the ninth grade, Robby.

aw how cute, Ron googled all day to find out what it was.

[Dread_Lord]

Also with a sad tale is Jerzy Beilski.

Jerzi was only a small lad when he and his sister were captured by the evil nazis. Jerzy told the nazis he was adopted, heroically abandoning his sister to be murdered.

Then the evil Nazis put Jerzy in the Auschwitz Death Camp. For 4 years, Jerzy escaped Death. Then the Nazis sent Jerzy on a Death March. The Death Marchers were going to be put on a Death Boat.

Then Jerzy was rescued by the Americans. Jerzy does not tell us if they were negroes.

Then Jerzy worked to have illegal aliens imported in Australia. Then Jerzy was fired for theft. Then Jerzy was arrested for forging wills.

Jerzy is a model Jewish citizen, and the newspapers tells us he is a hero.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/obitu...0306-8re3.html

[ratfrink]

Well that's because you're full of shit. Both France and Portugal have genocide denial laws. In fact France has imprisoned 3 people for holocaust revisionism. Lie some more why don't you.
Nope, the law in Portugal explicitly states 'denial' not revisionism. The law in France uses the words 'deny the existence of'. Garaudy, Plantin and Faurisson were all imprisoned for total denial i.e. denying that there was a systematic killing of Jaws, rather than revisionism or your own definition of 'Holocaust Denial'.
I'm not lying and the statistics are on my side.



I did, in fact, make a response to that.
Yes, but you ignored the fact that, although in 31% of Europe by population, revisionism (even through statistics) is illegal (in those countries your initial statement is correct), in the remainder of Europe revisionism (talking neutrally about the holocaust through statistics, rather than through active racism) is legal. It is not 'usual' for the laws to suggest that you be pro-semitic as you said. It is unusual.

[Dread_Lord]

Nope, the law in Portugal explicitly states 'denial' not revisionism. The law in France uses the words 'deny the existence of'. Garaudy, Plantin and Faurisson were all imprisoned for total denial i.e. denying that there was a systematic killing of Jaws, rather than revisionism or your own definition of 'Holocaust Denial'.
I'm not lying and the statistics are on my side.

Denial is the world that holocaustians use to describe revisionism, fool.
Saying that there is no evidence that support the gas chamber and the history books should be revised IS holocaust denial.



Yes, but you ignored the fact that, although in 31% of Europe by population, revisionism (even through statistics) is illegal (in those countries your initial statement is correct), in the remainder of Europe revisionism (talking neutrally about the holocaust through statistics, rather than through active racism) is legal. It is not 'usual' for the laws to suggest that you be pro-semitic as you said. It is unusual.

Your figures are not correct, for one thing, and for another your using population against what I said when what I said was that the LAWS (not the amount of people subjected to the laws) usually suggest etc. etc.
Because of this you can look at it two ways.
Either A: 14 countries have laws that would be enforced should you try to revise the holocaustians version of the holocaust and 13 countries have no laws either way. Which would still be usual.
Or B: 14 countries have laws that would be enforced should you try to revise the holocaustians version of the holocaust and 13 countries either have laws protecting it (which I don't think they do) or they have no laws at all either way.

Either A or B makes you wrong.

[ratfrink]

Denial is the world that holocaustians use to describe revisionism, fool.
Saying that there is no evidence that support the gas chamber and the history books should be revised IS holocaust denial.

I know that, I've mentioned it a dozen times. The laws state that 'holocaustian denial' is legal, but that denial of the existence of the holocaust is not.It's 13 countries with no laws PLUS the three countries with the laws as described above i.e. laws that allow 'holocaustian denial'.

My figures are correct - it is unusual either by number of countries or by population.

[Dread_Lord]

I know that, I've mentioned it a dozen times. The laws state that 'holocaustian denial' is legal, but that denial of the existence of the holocaust is not.It's 13 countries with no laws PLUS the three countries with the laws as described above i.e. laws that allow 'holocaustian denial'.

no, it's not.


My figures are correct - it is unusual either by number of countries or by population.


Here are your 3 countries and their laws:

France: those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity such as they are defined by Article 6 of the statute of the international tribunal military annexed in the agreement of London of August 8, 1945 and which were a carried out either by the members of an organization declared criminal pursuant to Article 9 of the aforementioned statute, or by a person found guilty such crimes by a French or international jurisdiction shall be punished by one month to one years imprisonment or a fine.

Get it now?

Portugal: defames or slanders an individual or group of individuals because of race, color, ethnic or national origin or religion, particularly through the denial of war crimes or against peace and humanity;

This law clearly that states that holocaust revisionism is an act of defmation/slander and therefore punishable.


Netherlands:While there is no law that specifically states that it is illegal it is against the law because the law considers it a form of spreading hate.
Thus, it IS illegal here just the same as any other country.


Your figures are wrong, for the last fucking time.

[ratfrink]

The French law states, and you've put it in bold, disputed the existence. As in, revisionism is allowed, as long as you recognise the existence of the holocaust. Since 'holocaustian denial' recognised the existence of the holocaust, it's legal. In each of the three legal cases you quoted, the convicted denied the systemic mass-murder of Jews i.e. there was denial of the existence of the Holocaust - that's what they were convicted for, not revisionism/'holocaustian denial'.

The Portuguese law states denial of war crimes. Denial is meant in the normal sense (as in, total denial), not in the sense of 'holocaustian denial'. Revisionism is allowed.

The Netherlands law doesn't even mention denial, numbers or anything like that. Therefore neutral revisionism is legal.

---

Every other country's laws explicitly state either 'coarse minimalisation' or 'any form of reduction' is illegal - that's how the laws of France, Portugal and the Netherlands are distinct - there's no 'revisionism' clause - they allow revisionism. And therefore, my figures are correct. I've been saying this for two pages now.

[Dread_Lord]

The French law states, and you've put it in bold, disputed the existence. As in, revisionism is allowed, as long as you recognise the existence of the holocaust. Since 'holocaustian denial' recognised the existence of the holocaust, it's legal. In each of the three legal cases you quoted, the convicted denied the systemic mass-murder of Jews i.e. there was denial of the existence of the Holocaust - that's what they were convicted for, not revisionism/'holocaustian denial'.

You were dropped on your head as a child weren't you?
The law specifically states:
"those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity such as they are defined by Article 6 of the statute of the international tribunal military annexed in the agreement of London of August 8, 1945"

Holocaust revisionism denies that there was any plan(and therefore action) to kill off 12 million people.
It also denies that 12 million people were ever killed by the Nazis.

How does that NOT deny the existence of one or more crimes against humanity, fucktard?

Now I ask you, genius, if 6 million Jews (or 12 million people, funny how no one ever mentions the other 6 million isn't it?) didn't die by the manner the Jews claim they died by then what is the holocaust?


The Portuguese law states denial of war crimes. Denial is meant in the normal sense (as in, total denial), not in the sense of 'holocaustian denial'. Revisionism is allowed.

Same thing as above.
If it weren't so pathetically annoying and sad it would be funny that you're trying to tell me what the laws apply to when you have no fucking clue what holocaust revisionism even is

I mean look at yourself, dumbass. You're getting all your facts of a page about holocaust denial laws that ONLY lists states that HAVE holocaust denial laws and you're saying that they do not.

Read the book I recommended and when you finish you might be qualified to have this discussion.

The Netherlands law doesn't even mention denial, numbers or anything like that. Therefore neutral revisionism is legal.


The laws in Netherlands create a de facto state of illegality to deny the holocaust.


---

Every other country's laws explicitly state either 'coarse minimalisation' or 'any form of reduction' is illegal - that's how the laws of France, Portugal and the Netherlands are distinct - there's no 'revisionism' clause - they allow revisionism. And therefore, my figures are correct. I've been saying this for two pages now.

You're figures are wrong and as an added bonus you're real close to being ignored..

[ratfrink]

Holocaust denial does not state that it never happened
Denial of existence is illegal in France and Portugal. Your own definition of Holocaust denial (as above) doesn't deny existence, and is therefore legal.

Holocaust revisionism denies that there was any plan(and therefore action) to kill off 12 million people.
It also denies that 12 million people were ever killed by the Nazis.
Well that would be illegal, because it's total denial of the Holocaust; I've never said anything otherwise. But I'm not talking about your dogmatic definition of 'Holocaust Revisionism' (i.e. total denial of the Holocaust), I'm talking about simply the word 'revision', as in, a methodologically-sound and statistically-based analysis of the Holocaust. It's legal because it doesn't deny systemic killing.

-------

Here's something interesting:
Holocaust denial does not state that it never happened
and...
Holocaust revisionism denies that there was any plan(and therefore action) to kill off 12 million people.
It also denies that 12 million people were ever killed by the Nazis.

but...

Denial is the world that holocaustians use to describe revisionism, fool.

So Holocaust denial and Holocaust revision have different definitions, but they mean the same thing? If you're gonna move the goalposts, I won't even bother.

----

Also the Netherlands law doesn't create a defacto illegalisation of revisionism. It's illegal to 'deliberately offend' or to 'incite hatred or discrimination', but Holocaust revision through statistical means is legal.

So, once again, my figures are correct; In Europe sensible revisionism is usually legal.

[Dread_Lord]

Denial of existence is illegal in France and Portugal. Your own definition of Holocaust denial (as above) doesn't deny existence, and is therefore legal.

No, fucktard, it says existence of CRIMES. My own definition shows how revisionism specifically argues against the existence of CRIMES that are listed in the codes sourced by this law.



Well that would be illegal, because it's total denial of the Holocaust; I've never said anything otherwise. But I'm not talking about your dogmatic definition of 'Holocaust Revisionism' (i.e. total denial of the Holocaust), I'm talking about simply the word 'revision', as in, a methodologically-sound and statistically-based analysis of the Holocaust. It's legal because it doesn't deny the systemic killing of Jews.

lol, just shut the fuck up. Seriously. What you just said is the most ignorant shit I have heard anyone say about this subject in this entire thread.

What I just defined for you IS revisionism, by ANY definition you use.


If you're gonna move the goalposts, I won't even bother.

Also the Netherlands law doesn't create a defacto illegalisation of revisionism. It's illegal to 'deliberately offend' or to 'incite hatred or discrimination', but sensible Holocaust revision through statistical means is legal.

I didn't move shit, the two are the same thing. If I said that there is evidence showing that no one was gassed in Auschwitz that would be both a statement that suggests the history of Auschwitz be REVISED, but the people who did not believe would call it DENYING and so would the COURTS, as they have multiple times..

You're so amazingly fucking ignorant of this topic it would be best for you to just shut your fucking mouth about it.

In fact, ignored. Bye dumbass.

[ratfrink]

Will someone pick up the torch for me?

[Dread_Lord]

By anyone's count, I think David Faber has to be the all time top point scorer.

Today's sad tale comes from David Faber. David and his brother Romek were captured and beaten by the Nazi's, But because of the Geneva convention, the Nazi's let David and Romek go. ( 10 points) David and family hid behind a picture frame whenever the Nazi's raided their hiding place. ( 10 points) But one day, the Nazi's sprayed bullets, killing everyone. Except David, who was hiding under a bed. ( 15 points) And Romek, who was hiding elsewhere. ( 5 points) Alone, David had no choice but to turn himself in to the Nazi's who had just machine gunned his entire family. ( 25 points, at least)

Then the evil Nazi's tortured David, demanding to know where Romek was. Romek had the Blue File, which contained the secrets of the Atom Bomb. If the evil Nazi's found the blue file, they would have the Bomb, and we would all be speaking German ( how many points for saving all of humanity?)

The Nazi's sent David to Auschwitz, where David was forced to inspect the bodies of freshly gassed Jews for valuables. One day, David found a baby who survived the gas showers, still suckling at its mothers breast.(10 points for breast feeding baby in shower whilst being gassed) David wanted to save the baby, but the evil SS man threw the baby into the flames, which were conveniently burning next to explosive gasses. ( at least 10 points, plus 5, plus 5, plus 5)

David would watch the Nazi dig a pit beneath the water table, and pour gasoline on the Jews, and burn them alive. David can still hear them scream. ( 10 points, plus 5)

David was held in 8 Death camps ( 5 points) I mean, 9 Death Camps ( 5 points for improving) and weighed only 72 lbs when liberated, ( 5 points) after surviving a Death March ( 5 points) David then testified against the Nazi's. ( 5 points) David lost 92 members of his immediate family ( 10 points)

Yehuda Says: I think this is the gold standard by which all other tales should be judged. It has everything, except poo and cannibalism. And naked flying Jewesses

http://judicial-inc.biz/David_Faber_...supplement.htm
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,605154420,00.html
http://www.elon.edu/e-web/pendulum/I...olocaust.xhtml
http://web.grinnell.edu/sandb/archiv...ews/faber.html
__________________

[krendan]

The holocaust as we know it is impossible to have happened:

1- Zycklon B doesn't kill humans
2- Historys says that furnaces were always working, and there are no pictures of the camps that show smoke
3- Hitler needed all the human force he could gather
4- Josef Mengele wanted to turn himself in so he could explain all those "big mistakes" the enemy had about his work
5- The following census data

1938:
http://www.jewskillbrant.com/resources/WorldCensus-1938.jpg


1948:
http://www.honestmediatoday.com/WorldCensus1948-3.jpg

[krendan]

no reply yet?? shit i killed the topic :cry:

[Mr.Happy]

^ I stopped reading your post after you misspelt Zyklon B and claimed it doesn't kill people.

[krendan]

so zyklon B is used to kill lice AND humans?

[Mr.Happy]

Hydrogen cyanide is deadly to all living things, not just insects.

[Retard Synrdome]

The holocaust was all just an act.

[Bobweirsucks]

Also with a sad tale is Jerzy Beilski.

Jerzi was only a small lad when he and his sister were captured by the evil nazis. Jerzy told the nazis he was adopted, heroically abandoning his sister to be murdered.

Then the evil Nazis put Jerzy in the Auschwitz Death Camp. For 4 years, Jerzy escaped Death. Then the Nazis sent Jerzy on a Death March. The Death Marchers were going to be put on a Death Boat.

Then Jerzy was rescued by the Americans. Jerzy does not tell us if they were negroes.

Then Jerzy worked to have illegal aliens imported in Australia. Then Jerzy was fired for theft. Then Jerzy was arrested for forging wills.

Jerzy is a model Jewish citizen, and the newspapers tells us he is a hero.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/obitu...0306-8re3.html

I think this is proof that this is a troll thread, plus the current discussion is in what countries can't you deny what.

so mods, please kill it
/thread

[Dread_Lord]

I think this is proof that this is a troll thread, plus the current discussion is in what countries can't you deny what.

so mods, please kill it
/thread

These are historically accurate stories from the holocaust themselves. Do not dishonor their memory by making light of it.

For you mistakes you must atone by making a pilgrimage to the Auschwitz theme park and purchasing at least 3 books written by holocaust survivors.

[Dread_Lord]

Today's sad holocaust tale comes from Jack Bass.

Jack was living in Germany as a child. All the Germans were mad at jack, and would call him a dirty Jew, and make him recite anti-Jewish poems.

Then Hitler came, and things got even worse. The Germans took away the phones from the Jews, and gave them their own benches. Then the Germans machined gunned the Jews. In Germany!

Then the evil nazis ordered the death of all the Jews. They sent Jack to the Auschwitz Death camp. Jack's job was to pick up all the dead bodies in the Auschwitz fields ( the raspberry fields that Gerda used to frequent?)

For breakfast---there was no breakfast. For lunch, the nazis only fed the Jews sawdust and oats.

The nazis would pack the Jews so tightly in the gas chambers that the Jews could not fall down after they were gassed. Jack can still hear them scream.

All of Jack's friends were gassed, but Jack was miraculously "rotated" into 7 different camps. Even though the nazis were trying to kill all the Jews.

When the Americans finally freed Jack, he had not eaten in 2 1/2 years.

http://www.dailyhome.com/news/2007/d...-7j11v1201.htm

[ratfrink]

plus the current discussion is in what countries can't you deny what.


No it isn't, that's an argument that I started.

[King of the world]

Ron, uhh I mean Cult_Leader, I did a better job trolling as a kike, a MUCH better job. Fuck off.


As for "the holocaust", I wish it had happened, I whole heartedly especially wish the stories about Dr Josef Mengele were true, but I'll be making another thread about him alone at another point in time, as he is the most vilified doctor of all time and in my opinion most certainly not deserving of it.

Even if 6 million Jews were magically exterminated, there were over 50 million people of other races who died in World War II. Any school kid thinks 6 million Jews died at the hands of Germans, but ask him how many Americans or Russians died, or how many Germans died in World War II, and he will give you the 'deer caught in the headlights' blank stare. In fact, given today's education standards, he or she might even say "it just doesn't matter."

If you don't like genocide, don't go to war! War IS genocide, particularly for White people. Remember, the Jews badgered Wilson to enter World War I. This prolonged the war and created the loss, and then horrible conditions, for Germany. That led straight to Adolf Hitler. Then the chickens came home to roost -- bad karma which the Jews had created for themselves!

Today the whole world suffers because the Jew badgered British government's Balfour Declaration gave Palestine to Jews and Hell to Palestinians. Yet again, the Jews are hated worldwide.
Jews are their own worst enemy and "what goes around comes around." It's just too bad that so many others must suffer to satisfy the greed and power lust of Jew leaders.

Tom Metzger

Sums my view up pretty much on the alleged holocaust, I wouldn't care if it did happen exactly as they say.


and find it somewhat futile to spend too much time on revisionism as interesting as it may be, it has no revolutionary purpose, they will just simply bring out more holocaust, world war 2 and nazi propaganda the moment more "anti-semitism" rises and make more money.

To not be too biased in this area, I'd suggest anyone to read The holocaust industry by Norman Finkelstein (jew) on how the jews and Israel use the "story" as a tool TODAY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCKTKMFTprM

Revisionism doesn't need an awful lot of time spent on it, I'm more concerned with what is happening today, and looking at what Finkelstein says is a good place to start with exposing this.



But an extra for those interested in revisionism I'd suggest these to begin with:
Cole in Auschwitz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKHw0EZrqM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-YsBXEueoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP8eB4oPS0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQkD7AqLl5c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJIwm24kZEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctNCdGw2Iio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_C0d-BUmk

Holocaust debate with david cole- with commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmNTIfoWNog
(just follow the rest of the vids too, can't be bothered linking them all)

http://www.air-photo.com/index.php

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1183568676926459928

[T.K. Baha]

I have proof! :mad:

http://republicofaustin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ashes.jpg

[Cooking with Zyklon B]

I would never go so far as to say the Holocaust did not happen. However I will say that it is entirely possible/probable that at the very least the overall death toll was exaggerated.

The Germans have been known to be meticulous record keepers, but we can't find many German-kept records in regards to such a dark history. Logically I think it's safe to assume that the Nazis attempted to destroy any record related to atrocities committed during the war. If no attempts were made to destroy such records, shit would just be too easy for the OSI. So to fill in the blanks we rely heavily upon victim testimonies. And I have a perfect example of how reliable that can be. [Eliahu Rosenberg]

I did not stumble upon this perfect example of jewish exaggeration/deception at the haven for neo-nazis: Stormfront. I had to pick a non-fictional book in highschool to do a book report. So I went to the school library and browsed through the non-fiction section. I stumbled upon the book 'Treblinka by Jean-francois Steiner' in the non-fiction section.

Jean-francois Steiner relies upon the eyewitness testimonies of 40 out of the 600 who escaped during the prisoner uprising of August 2, 1943 and admittingly his own imagination to paint the picture of what occurred at Treblinka.

In the Afterword, Steiner explains that in order "To reconstruct the history of Treblinka we have relied almost solely upon the testimony of the survivors."

In the Preface Simone de Beauvoir vouches for the veracity of the content: "Each detail is substantiated by the written and oral testimony he has collected and compared."

In the Introduction, Terrence Des Pres states that "Treblinka is as close to the facts as we are likely to come."

Now for those of you who don't care what some Jew whose father perished at Auschwitz wrote as pseudo-fact I will try to get to the point here. There was a notorious guard at Treblinka known as Ivan the Terrible. In Steiner's book, Ivan the Terrible met his end at knife-point by a Jewish prisoner during the uprising. Eliyahu Rosenberg had sworn an affidavit saying Ivan was beaten to death with shovels as he slept on his bunk bed(not mortally stabbed by a victim he was trying to strangle as Steiner portrayed in his novel).

All is well right? I mean Eliyahu Rosenberg was there, he experienced it not me, so what he says in the matter must be 100% unbiased fact, and I must not question it before it goes in the history books, right?

Eliyahu Rosenberg contradicted his own sworn affidavits of 1945 and 1947 by participating as a witness for the prosecution and identifying John Demjanjuk as being 'Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka' at a trial in Israel.

That flat self-contradiction should speak volumes about how reliable anything else we only know of because of "eye witness accounts" privy to the subject is.

The occurrence of mistaken identity is not the only proof of Rosenberg's deception that I happened to stumble upon. According to standard historiography, construction on the new gas chamber (at Treblinka II) building began in late summer/early autumn 1942. Rosenberg on the other hand has the work begin in March 1943, on the verge of spring. The winter between those two dates was the only one Rosenberg spent in the camp (in fact, it was the only winter during which the camp existed). We should thus expect the witness four years later to be able to tell which major episodes took place prior to the winter, and which took place afterwards.

[Snoopy]

I had to pick a fictional book in highschool to do a book report...

so far so good...

So I went to the school library and browsed through the non-fiction section...

oh-ooooooooooohhh!

I stumbled upon the book 'Treblinka by Jean-francois Steiner' in the non-fiction section.

OH NO YOU DIDANT!!!111 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUU--

I like your style. Over here people get kicked out of school for suggesting the holocaust didn't occur or holocaust "documentation" is a work of fiction. So us kids only knowing one way to rebel and that is deny the holocaust for great victory and epic lulz.

I have to thank the holocaust it taught me how to be an awesome troll all the way through high school.

[Cooking with Zyklon B]

so far so good...



oh-ooooooooooohhh!



OH NO YOU DIDANT!!!111 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUU--

I like your style. Over here people get kicked out of school for suggesting the holocaust didn't occur or holocaust "documentation" is a work of fiction. So us kids only knowing one way to rebel and that is deny the holocaust for great victory and epic lulz.

I have to thank the holocaust it taught me how to be an awesome troll all the way through high school.

Oh :facepalm: you caught my error. Lawlz, I meant that I needed to do the book report on a non-fiction book. That mistake totally escaped me, thank you. However if it makes you feel any better, that teacher was russian, and I made it a habit of writing anti-semetic things in german up on the white board.

It's fixed now.

I actually did get expelled from highschool. But not for denial of the holocaust. The gobbledygook reason they got me for was "Obstruction of an Investigation." In otherwords I didn't rat out who I was with when I got caught smoking behind the gym.

[Snoopy]

I got kicked out of one school because the principal tought I was smoking weed. Well, I was smoking weed but he didn't have any proof he just assumed it. I and two other guys got kicked out anyway.

Teachers and staff never give a shit. So many kids had their future ruined because the people in charge of their education just don't give a fuck.

Well, I'm going to teach my lil' girls to scream "PEDOPHILE" at the top of their lungs real early on. Teachers are like cops. An honorable job that is mostly only performed by dicks. Fuck 'em.

[Cooking with Zyklon B]

I got kicked out of one school because the principal tought I was smoking weed. Well, I was smoking weed but he didn't have any proof he just assumed it. I and two other guys got kicked out anyway.

Teachers and staff never give a shit. So many kids had their future ruined because the people in charge of their education just don't give a fuck.

Well, I'm going to teach my lil' girls to scream "PEDOPHILE" at the top of their lungs real early on. Teachers are like cops. An honorable job that is mostly only performed by dicks. Fuck 'em.

Yea, that teacher had it out for me. To prove it, I turned Hallowed Be Thy Name by Iron Maiden into a sonnet, and the bitch had a hard time even giving me a B-. I submitted the same sonnet to poetry.com for a contest, and they wanted to publish it. I never responded back to them for obvious reasons. Hallowed Be Thy Name is an A+ in any form, and the fact she would grade it any less proves she was biased against me.

But back on topic, when doing the book report, I found an excerpt of Rosenbergs testimony where he gives an estimate of how many prisoners were processed on a daily basis. I've been looking for the past hour and can't find it any more, but I remember taking those figures from Rosenberg and multiplying that by the days Treblinka was in operation, and came to a conclusion in the billions~whereas the officially accepted body count of Treblinka usually falls around 800,000.

So far the only numbers I was able to recently dig up from Rosenberg testimonials were building capacity at the Eichmann trials.