The (Un)Official Late Antiquity Thread

[HippieTrippie]

Late Antiquity is the little discussed period between the Roman Empires Crisis of the Third Century starting in 235 CE to the Muslim Conquests of North Africa and Iberia in the Eighth Century.

This crucial period in history is where Europe went from Rome and Germanic/Barbaric tribes to organized feudalistic Kingdoms and plunging into the Dark Ages.

Most of the literature, buildings, and art were destroyed in the Dark Ages either by Kings that saw the past as a time of barbarians or by the Holy See because they were paganistic or contrasted Catholic beliefs. Therefore little is known about these few hundred years but many an interesting society had developed during them including The Picts, The Anglo-Saxons, Vandals, Merovingian France, Alamanni, Gaels, Bretons, and Goths among others.

I'll start with a question: Does anyone know if the Gaels from Dál Riata originated in Scotland or Ireland? They are reffered to as Scotts meaning from Ireland, but they appear to have had a larger area and relation with the Scottish Kingdom of Fortriu than with any of the other Irish Gaels.

[TheDarkRodent]

I'll start with a question: Does anyone know if the Gaels from Dál Riata originated in Scotland or Ireland? They are reffered to as Scotts meaning from Ireland, but they appear to have had a larger area and relation with the Scottish Kingdom of Fortriu than with any of the other Irish Gaels.

According to this document they originated in Ireland but gave up claims to their ancestral lands in Ireland upon migrating to Scotland. My statement is of course simplified but I believe the details in the document cited will answer your question.

Source (http://www.clanmactavish.org/documents/dalriada.pdf)

The Dal Riada were originally a tribe of North Antrim in Ireland, but from as early as the third
century, and especially during the late fifth century there had been a steady settlement of the
adjacent coastal and island areas of Scotland by these Dal Riada Scots. This area, which became
the Scottish part of the greater tribal kingdom of Dal Riada, was separated from the rest of
Scotland by mountains. The Scottish part of the tribal kingdom of Dal Riada was known as
Argyll which means "coastland of the Gaels", for by this time the population of Ireland had long
been Gaelic-speaking, and the Dal Riada considered them selves to be Gaels in the general sense,
though nonetheless kin in the context of ethno-dynastic politics. About A.D. 500 the kings of Dal
Riada took up permanent residence in the Argyle, and with the coming of the Vikings in the
ninth century, the tribe, by then centered in Argyle, was cut off from their Irish collateral
kindsmen in Antrim. The chief kindreds of the Dal Riada of Argyle, the Cineal Loairn and the
Cineal nGabrain, soon spread into much of Scotland with the uniting of their kingdom and the
Kingdom of the Picts.

The Ceneal Loarin derive their descent from Loarn, son of Erc, a king of Dal Riada in the fifth
Century. They originally inhabited the present districts of Lorn (named for them) and Mull, with
the adjacent mainland and island territory to the north and west. This territory comprised the
northern part of Scottish Dal Riada, and when the time came for expansion, the Cineal Loairn
migrated up the Great Glen.

The Ceneal nGabrain originally dwelt south of the Cineal Loairn in the island districts of Jura,
Bute, and Arran, and the mainland districts of Cowal and Kintyre. They derive their descent from
Gabhran, King of Dal Riada in the sixth century. They were the chief clan of the Dal Riada, and
merged with the Pictish Royal House in the ninth century.
Whether the Dal Riata had settled in Scotland before the advent of Fergus Mor mac Eirc, c. 500,
is open to argument, but there is little doubt that in his person the Dalriadic dynasty removed
from Ireland to Scotland.

There is no indication that Fergus Mor relinquished his authority over his Irish territories when
he left for Scotland. The first positive evidence for the assumption that Fergus Mor and his
immediate successors continued to rule Dal Riata in Ireland is the Convention of Druim Cett.
The assembly convened in 575 AU to discuss the future status of the Irish Dal Riata in relation to
Aedan mac Gabrain, king of Dal Riata in Scotland (d. c. 608), among other things. It was finally
decided that, although the armed forces of Dal Riata in Ireland should go in future to Aed, son of
Ainmire, as overland of Northern Ireland, Aedan should continue to levy taxes and tributes,
which meant that effective government was to remain in the hands of Aedan and his successors
for as long as they could prove capable of retaining it.

Dal Riata in Ireland formed part of the historical province of Ulster which corresponded more or
less to the present-day counties of Antrim and Down. , on the one hand, to Aed, son of Ainmire
The ancestors of the medieval Scottish monarchs are to be found in the kingdom of Dal Riata.
Dal Riata originally was confined to the northeast coast of Ireland in what is now County
Antrim, west of the Kintyre peninsula.

Sometime in the late Roman/early medieval period there was an emigration from Dal Riata
northeast to Britain, accross the thirteen miles of the Atlantic Ocean known as the North
Channel, which separates the Antrim coast from the Mull of Kintyre. The date at which the
initial emigration occurred is unknown, but early medieval records suggest that the kings of Dal
Riata in Ireland left their fortress at Dunseverick for residence in Britain circa A.D. 500.
Argyll is much more than a county. IT is more even than a province. Some would say perhaps
that, historically at least, it is the most important part of Scotland, in the main, was Christianised.
Under the latter-day so-called reform of local government, Argyll county becomes part of the
vast, unwieldy and shapeless region of Strathclyde, with its administrative center at Glasgow - of
which nothing could be more ridiculous for most of the area. It was the the second-largest county
in the land only 22 miles short of being half the length of the entire mainland of Scotland,
covering 3255 square miles or over 2 million acres, and including some of the largest and bestknown
islands of the Hebrides such as Mull, Islay, Tiree and Jura. It is so cut up by sea-lochs
sounds and kyles that despite its vast size no part of Argyll is more than 15 miles from saltwater.
And, of course, it is one of the most beautiful areas in the land, some might claim, in the
world, with a notable variety of scenery and attractions, its archaeology renowned, its antiquities
abundant, its history dramatic.

The name Argyll comes from Araghaidal, or Ergadia, the boundary of the Gaels. In Pictish times
its links were with Ireland rather than with the rest of Alba, not unnaturally in the geographical
context; and it is interesting that the original Dalriada in Northern Ireland, is believed to have
been colonised by Cruithne (corn-eaters) the true name for the people the Romans called Picts,
from Alba, generations before the tide reversed and the Irish Dalriads, calling themselves Scots
now, returned as colonisers and missionaries to Ergadia and named it Dalriada, in turn.
Dunadd, on Loch Crinan, became the Dalriadic kingdom's capital, and Iona, off Mull, the
Church's headquarters. Argyll was the cradle of the new nation. Eventually the place of rule had
to move to a more central location for the whole country, and the Perth vicinity of Forteviot,
Abernethy and Scone became the new government focus of State and Church. With the putting
down of the Celtic Church by Malcolm Canmore's Queen Margaret and her sons, in favour of the
Roman Catholic faither, Argyll's importance began to fade ecclesiastically as it had done
secularly, leaving the Norsemen, who had themselves much inter-married with the Celtic people
and become Christian, with the major influence.

The huge territory can be divided conveniently into five great sections - Cowal, Kintyre, Lorn,
Ardnamurchan-Movern, and the Isles. Kintyre, with Knapdale its northern link with the
mainland, is the mighty peninsula which stretches southwards from Crinan for about 55 miles, its
extremity at the Mull of Kintyre level with Turnberry in Ayrshire.

[Beam_Me_Up_Scotty]

I hate when people blanket this period as the "Dark Ages", most of t he world was experiencing a golden age.

Islamic Golden Age:

The leaders of the Abbasid Caliphate were lovers of knowledge and they encouraged the establishment of numerous academic and public institutions to further that knowledge. In a “House of Wisdom,” Arabic scholars translated ancient Iraqi, Roman, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Greek, Byzantine, and North African works into their native language and preserved them for posterity. Around this time, the secret art of papermaking, obtained from Chinese prisoners in 751, became known to the followers of Islam, who subsequently built large paper mills in their capital cities. Unlike the Chinese, who preferred to use brushes for writing, the Arabs used pens.

Some institutions founded during the Islamic Golden Age include the public hospital, psychiatric hospital, public libraries, academic degree-granting universities, and the astronomical observatory as a research institute. Today, the University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco is regarded as the world’s oldest degree-granting university, founded in 859. The first full-fledged university, Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, was founded in 975. These universities were populated by polymaths, scholars who excelled in a variety of secular and religious subjects. The Islamic Golden Age had a high standard of literacy and education.

By the 10th century, key Islamic cities such as Baghdad, Tripoli, Cairo, and Cordoba had huge libraries with between 600,000 and 3 million books, many of which were destroyed in subsequent centuries. The corpus of knowledge generated during this time exceeds the combined works of ancient Greece and Rome, and represents the first scientific works in history. Fundamental findings in optics, mechanics, physics, agriculture, chemistry, mathematics, astronomy, and thousands of other fields were achieved during this time. Improvements in agriculture and industrial growth increased the size of the population that could be supported by a fixed amount of farmers.

[HippieTrippie]

I hate when people blanket this period as the "Dark Ages", most of t he world was experiencing a golden age.

Islamic Golden Age:

I was speaking strictly of The Dark Ages in Europe, since Late Antiquity as in the way I described it was the period of time that Europe organized into Kingdoms.

Everyone knows that the Middle East and Arabic world discovered countless philosophical and mathematical treasures which were lost during the European Dark Ages with the Crusades (And Mongols, although not European) that burned Baghdad to the ground, from which it still has not recovered.

[Beam_Me_Up_Scotty]

I was speaking strictly of The Dark Ages in Europe, since Late Antiquity as in the way I described it was the period of time that Europe organized into Kingdoms.

Everyone knows that the Middle East and Arabic world discovered countless philosophical and mathematical treasures which were lost during the European Dark Ages with the Crusade that burned Baghdad to the ground, from which it still has not recovered.

Yeah, I should have included a disclaimer that I didn't mean you, I was just venting.

[HippieTrippie]

It's a legitimate point, I think the threat of Islam in the East caused these Gaelic and Frankish kingdoms to fall and be replaced by Feudal ones that would run on fear.

[Yggdrasil]

Well, the events that took place in that time did set the stage for the rest of European history. Muslim encroachment into Europe was halted by the Franks at Tours. The Serments de Strasbourg, signed by Charlemagne's 3 heirs, shaped the future of European political divisions and organization. Lots of the proto/ancient languages began to splinter off into their modern descendants (the development of the Romance languages, the Germanic languages, etc). That's about it, though. It's not the most interesting chapter of history, if I may say so :o

[HippieTrippie]

I disagree, I believe that this time as crucial in the development of Europe, its the time when the Anglo-Saxons became the most powerful culture on the British Isles, The Frankish barbarians under the Merovingians and Charlemagne developed much faster than other new civilization after the fall of Rome, and The emergence of the Holy See as the ultimate power because of its support from Charlemagne's France and all the Lombardic and Germanic micro-kingdoms.