240sx SR20DET vs. Camaro 350

[rider]

I've been putting money away for over two years now, and it's about time I spend that money on a car.

I've looked at many, many different cars throughout the years, changed my likings around, but no matter where they go, they always involved the 240sx or a Camaro (Or Firebird; but who honestly cares?).

I have about 3 grand to spend. That's enough for a 350 powered Camaro, and it's enough for a SR-powered 240sx in my area.

And now my question is, which one should I get?

The 240sx will get better mileage, but need premium gas, and more maintenance. And it's more complicated to work on.

The Camaro will be a gas-guzzler, but it uses regular unleaded. It's also ruggedly simple to work on and fix. But the engines don't last that long, my parents have had a couple Small-block powered cars, and they have confirmed that they lasted until about 90 or 100 thousand miles and just sort of fell apart.

I've seen SRs be reliable way into the 150 thousand mile mark.

I like the Camaro because it sounds better and it's probably a bit less embarrassing to drive around.

I like the 240sx because it'll handle well, it's light, but a built engine WILL sound like a rice box. It'll be much more of a sleeper then the Camaro though. People will just think it's an ordinary piece of shit ricebox with a fart can.

I don't plan on visually modifying these cars at all. But I am looking to do a ~350rwhp build.

350rwhp would be easy in a 350 but it won't last as long and probably won't be as reliable as a 350rwhp from a 240sx.

Also, both of these will have manuals. I can't stand automatics.

What do you guys think?

[Rocko]

Camaro. Why?

-Cheaper parts, both performance and repair parts. Dollar-to-horsepower, it is much cheaper to make a powerful SBC than any other engine.
-More reliable, a pushrod small block V8 will break less often than almost anything else when properly maintained. That whole "imports are more reliable" schtick is complete bullshit.
-Sounds better (matter of opinion).
-You won't be accused of being a dumbshit ricer.

[rider]

Camaro. Why?

-Cheaper parts, both performance and repair parts. Dollar-to-horsepower, it is much cheaper to make a powerful SBC than any other engine.
-More reliable, a pushrod small block V8 will break less often than almost anything else when properly maintained. That whole "imports are more reliable" schtick is complete bullshit.
-Sounds better (matter of opinion).
-You won't be accused of being a dumbshit ricer.

Although I agree with all of these, I'm going to play the devil's advocate here.

The last two I heavily agree with. The first one I heavily agree with.

The second, I disagree with. And no, I'm not saying "LOL MY HONDA WITH 50000HP IS MORE RELIABLE THAN YOUR 350 LOLOLOLOLOLOL," I'm saying that in the high mile range, an SR will most likely be more reliable.

Also, it's not all about straight line power. Straight lines can only be fun for a certain time, and one of the best things about the 240 is that it handles well from the factory, and it has huge aftermarket support for the handling. Camaros and other f-bodies have almost no aftermarket handling support; at least not for a real race track.

Also, as I've said before, a SBC will not last as long as an SR. I don't mean to sound like a fanboy here; I LOVE old Chevy blocks and fucking huge 8 cylinder engines, but I have to admit that an SR will last longer.

Again, I'm not ripping on your opinion, I'm simply providing balance.

[Rocko]

I will give you that factory Camaro handling is extremely shit, even the turd gens that were advertised as being able to handle. You'll spend a fair amount of money just to get it's cornering ability up to the level of a 240. It can be done, the parts are out there and they're about as cheap as aftermarket parts get (except perhaps for Mustang parts), but it will take effort.

I still don't agree with the reliability thing, though, an SBC simply has less shit to break. No sensors to get fouled, very few electrical connections to corrode, lower factory compression so head gaskets don't blow very often, cast iron blocks and heads are difficult to warp, and no computer modules to develop problems. One problem they do have is that the flat-tappet camshafts/lifters will tend to wear, and you can't use pre-73 heads because the valve seats wear with unleaded gas. Still, cost per year is lower because there just aren't as many electrical parts and connections.

[cronic5]

A built 240sx will NOT sound like a ricebox. If it is built properly it should sound like a tuner, if anything. Putting a fart can on a car that doesn't need it isn't right, and should never be done. If you go with a turbo, a fart can is usually necessary or at least generally accepted. Build it right and it will sound amazing. Don't do it injustice.

My opinion is the Camaro, it is an American car and I am a little biased on them. Cheaper to build and it looks better IMO.

It really depends on what you will use it for. Is this a race car or a daily driver. Will you beat it or really enjoy it for what it is? Knowing what kind of power you want is not all there is to a car.

[rider]

It really depends on what you will use it for. Is this a race car or a daily driver. Will you beat it or really enjoy it for what it is? Knowing what kind of power you want is not all there is to a car.

It's supposed to be both. I have a couple racetracks around where I live, and I plan to visit them when the opportunity arises. I'm not simply looking for a drag car. I also need it as a daily driver to get my to and from school/work.


I still don't agree with the reliability thing, though, an SBC simply has less shit to break. No sensors to get fouled, very few electrical connections to corrode, lower factory compression so head gaskets don't blow very often, cast iron blocks and heads are difficult to warp, and no computer modules to develop problems. One problem they do have is that the flat-tappet camshafts/lifters will tend to wear, and you can't use pre-73 heads because the valve seats wear with unleaded gas. Still, cost per year is lower because there just aren't as many electrical parts and connections.

Well I see we're not going to settle this reliability argument, but I will point something else out. An SR motor producing 350rwhp will be MUCH different then a 350 producing 350rwhp. When you want an SR to settle down, it'll settle down. A SBC is always a big, huge, heavy shouty thing. But with an SR, you don't get that hugely satisfying deep V8 rumble, or the low end power that you do with an SBC.

[Aenimal]

I used to have a Chevelle SS with a 454. I now have a 240sx...with a KA24E. It's all about what you like.

If you want an effing fast car, the 240 is probably the way to go, because it's light, handles amazingly with coils, and doesn't have to sound like a rice box at all (my one-cam-wonder turbo build uses a magnaflow two glasspacks and twin 3" straight exhaust from a long stroke 2.4L).

The Camaro will drag like a champ, can be built up by a six year old, and put out a shit load of power for cheap. On the other hand, fuel keeps getting more and more expensive, and those things (regardless of the year) are..pretty much boats. Turning is probably not in your best interest.

If you want a fast car at the track, or to show to your friends (I'm not pinning that as a bad thing...hell, who doesn't?), and are good with your hands...both are great options.

EDIT: What about a KA24E/DE-T buildup? Know any good mechanics nearby, or are you good with your hands? Those things are straight up jap muscle.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I've never understood why Americans can like jap cars. You didn't get any of the good engines or cars and when you did they were fucked up for emissions.
So for that reason i would say to get the camaro.

However...

you could build a ls1 240 and have the best of both worlds haha.

[Hyper-dimension]

Go with the Sylvia. You are already on to the fact that straight line power is not very much fun. The 240 is a car you can really drive. It's a far more versatile car, which results in far more fun. This is one of the best cars you can buy for drifting. And a 350 as a daily driver on the side? :eek:

~350whp? ~600whp is doable with the 240, and even higher can be done. Do not buy a 240 with the KA motor. It's not a bad motor, but you'll wind up wishing you bought an SR instead, especially if you can buy an SR for ~$3000 as you claim.

[Rocko]

Well I see we're not going to settle this reliability argument, but I will point something else out. An SR motor producing 350rwhp will be MUCH different then a 350 producing 350rwhp. When you want an SR to settle down, it'll settle down. A SBC is always a big, huge, heavy shouty thing. But with an SR, you don't get that hugely satisfying deep V8 rumble, or the low end power that you do with an SBC.

Nothing wrong with that statement. Both will make the same power very differently. A large-displacement V8 will give you a kick in the ass on the low end, but reaches the top of it's powerband sooner. The SR will take a moment to spool up, and will do all it's pulling in the top end.

Of course, you could always just be smart and drop an LS motor into the 240...

[Sponsored Link]

Uhh... Uh... 350 rwhp on a 350 isnt reliable? You can do that naturally aspirated with a good carb, ported heads, cam, and maybe water/meth injection.

[MediumD]

I would venture to say a 350rwhp naturally aspirated 5.7l small block spinning to maybe 6500rpm would be more reliable than a 2.0l breathing 20psi and spinning at least 7500...

[blankooie]

no replacement for displacement son

[Rocko]

1 hp per cubic inch is not enough to compromise a motor's reliability. GM's V8 motors and Chrysler's Hemi series all put out close to or more than that power/displacement ratio, and last just as long as anything else. By the same token, though, a motor's reliability is almost entirely dependent on how well someone takes car of it. A reasonable-boost 4 cyl can last a long time too, if you keep up the maintainence.

[cronic5]

1 hp per cubic inch is not enough to compromise a motor's reliability. GM's V8 motors and Chrysler's Hemi series all put out close to or more than that power/displacement ratio, and last just as long as anything else. By the same token, though, a motor's reliability is almost entirely dependent on how well someone takes car of it. A reasonable-boost 4 cyl can last a long time too, if you keep up the maintainence.

Naturally aspirated will almost always last longer than forced induction simply because the engine isn't having more stress put on it than it was designed for. When you use forced induction, people are going to go bigger and bigger, the block wasn't really intended for that and will blow. Common knowledge, and yes a reasonable-boost 4cylinder CAN last a long time, but in the end the high displacement, naturally aspirated will be more reliable.

Also:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/48499_cheap_horsepower_engine_build/index.html

[blankooie]

One argument I always hear is "oh but that can't do corners!"

...
...
...

When the fuck do you go 60mph around a corner? There are few turns around here where anyone could safely do that. As for accelerating down a nice straight stretch of road, I could do that anywhere.

Get the camaro. It will be more fun when you realize burning rubber and accelerating hard is far more fun than taking a corner quickly.

[Mullen]

One argument I always hear is "oh but that can't do corners!"


I drove my Chevelle to high school for about 1 1/2 years. I never had any trouble with cornering. Stopping 3200 lbs without power brakes took some getting used to, but it wasn't a big deal.

Gas mileage? 330hp 350, electronic ignition /w coil, electric fans, and 2.73 gears would get me close to 20 mpg.. that is, if I could've kept my foot off the floor. :)

If something broke or stopped working I could park it under a shade tree and usually have it fixed by nightfall.

Get the Camaro, it'll be much more fun to drive than a little 4-banger. Plus, which do you think the girls will like more, an angry bumble bee or a car that makes the ground vibrate? ;)

[CitizenUzi]

Seems a lot of negative attitudes to the 240. It is really a great small car. I prefer small RWD cars because they seem to do everything better. The 240 won't be a torque monster like the SBC, but a 240 with ~250-300hp (which is perfectly reasonable, cheap and reliable) will SHRED. I would bet on the 240 even in a drag against a 350hp/400ftlb camaro. A 240 with equal engine output will be MUCH quicker (in race comparisons at least).

Don't get me wrong though, the camaro or a firebird is fine. It will be cheaper overall, and you can get a LOT of power for cheap. A Vette would be the best, combining low weight and good handling with a nice big engine, and the sky's the limit for making it sick (on the cheap, too). Vettes tend to be pricey to buy whole though. You'd be better off with a nice worked 240. Ever think about the 300z? RX-7? MR2 turbo???

Oh and to anyone who is brushing off handling..... in daily driving it might seem like the point of a sports car is 75% speed and 25% handling. If you're into it, it seem more like 50-50. In terms of real (track, time) racing. handling is more like 80% and speed is 20%. Hell, a stock 240 could go up against a punchy 300hp camaro and put up one hell of a fight on the track.
Try ripping some corners before you Duh your way to the dunce corner. I kinda was disinterested in handling until I got a lil' RX-7..... 150hp, but boy oh boy.... 90-100mph corners on the nice shocks, new tires, THAT was a BLAST! You can't honestly call yourself a fan of driving without loving those tight edge-of-traction corners.... makes you feel alive!!!

[Aenimal]

Fuckin' rights.

As a side note, here's what's pretty easily attainable with around for around $1000 extra over a basic swap on a 240sx. This is assuming you are looking for deals / NIB used parts...

KA-T, a full setup with 1k on top will get you around: 350-370rwhp.
KA-T, full setup with 1k and a T3/T04 turbo: 350+rwhp
SR-20, a full setup with 1k on top on the stock S13 turbo: 290-310rwhp.
SR-20, full setup with a GT28r or similar turbo: 330rwhp+

Both also have impressive torque for the style of engine.

Hell you should even consider an RB25DET swap. If you're doing it yourself it's not that much harder, and will get you a mad car. Literally insane.

[aussiedude]

as a basic sorta opinion i'd go with the old school muscle rather than a turbo, you cant beat the classic v8 note, police (if its anylike like australia) will probably hunt your arse down and defect you if they hear a turbos blow off valve or wastegate (again some are just cunts lol), and considering that you have 3 grand, its a whole lot cheaper to make a v8 sound and look fast than it will be to do the same to a 240... and it doesnt really matter that it only looks and sounds fast because hey, speeding fines are pricey and asides from track days or drag days when wil you ever do more than 100, 110kph (60, 65 whatever miles per hour)

[Dumpster Slut]

the camaro will need premium if your taking bout the lt1 / ls1 350 motor

[Animal Farm Pig]

What generation Camaro are you looking at? 3rd, 4th?

You should keep in mind that you're also planning to use the car as a daily driver.

Things like the comfort of the seats; position of the steering wheel, controls, etc.; quality of the interior and lack of annoying rattles; noise insulation and lack of drone at highways speeds; etc. should probably enter into your equation. If you're going to be driving in traffic, you'll want a good feeling clutch, smooth shifting gears, and some torque at the low end. Does the car shudder or pound your kidneys when going over bad pavement?

Maybe others are more hardcore than me, but I consider those things important. I think driving should be a pleasure, and having a car that's fast as spit isn't worth it to me if it's an uncomfortable, noisy, difficult to shift rattle trap.

[The Phreak]

camaro would smoke that ricer all the way. no joke

[rider]

camaro would smoke that ricer all the way. no joke

A 240sx with an SR20det is not a ricer.

This is a ricer:
http://www.teamblewracing.com/forum/uploads/20090113_135635_ricer_civic_2.jpg

This is a 240sx SR20DET:
https://www.zfever.com/catalog/images/SR20DET-Doug-Mitchel.jpg

Educate yourself.

[happy_one_hit]

Asking for opinions on this forum will get you nowhere!

Haven't you learned anything? Its YOUR choice, it will be YOUR car, so it is up to you. Get what fits you better, I can tell you the camaro will fit me better, for reasons already mentioned.

Why would want someone else to choose your car for you, research both get what you want.

Go to a car specific forum and learn what the OWNERS think.

[rider]

Go to a car specific forum and learn what the OWNERS think.

The problem with this is that you then get an obviously biased opinion. Most people on the 240sx forum hate Camaros. Most people on the Camaro forum I visit hate 240sxs.

At least here, I get a comparison, not just ranting about how good the one is that's the center of the forum I'm posting on.

[happy_one_hit]

The problem with this is that you then get an obviously biased opinion. Most people on the 240sx forum hate Camaros. Most people on the Camaro forum I visit hate 240sxs.

At least here, I get a comparison, not just ranting about how good the one is that's the center of the forum I'm posting on.

What I meant was learn about each car in depth from the gurus of each form. You compare them. Don't ask them to compare them for you, that's the same thing you are doing here. :)

[blerrh]

Get the 240sx and put an RB26DETT

[cronic5]

camaro would smoke that ricer all the way. no joke

The 240 is NOT a ricer. Sure, you can rice them out, even drive like a ricer.

We don't appreciate narrow minded views like that. Imports, domestics, whatever you like is ALL appreciated here as we're car enthusiasts, not dickwads who have no taste in anything other than a specific type of car.

Well...some of us are real car enthusiasts...

[happy_one_hit]

OK, check this out:

http://www.mike.vcn.com/tmp/ricer_civic_2.jpg
Ricer^

http://www.dragtimes.com/images/12459-1992-Honda-Civic.jpg
not ricer^

...got it?

[thunderstruck]

lmao fwd drag cars always look retarded.

[Rocko]

lmao fwd drag cars always look retarded.

I gotta agree with this, FWD burnouts and slicks just look fucking stupid.

[rider]

lmao fwd drag cars always look retarded.

And they always win, cause the other driver will be too busy laughing to drive :D

[happy_one_hit]

I gotta agree with this, FWD burnouts and slicks just look fucking stupid.

Top fuel dragsters are ugly too.......its not for looking good, its for going fast, and I'm it runs a 10.4

What does looks have to do with performance? If you are going for strictly looks, you are a ricer......?

[blerrh]

SR20DET is overrated

http://media.photobucket.com/image/240sx%20rb26dett/r25558/riggs240sx025.jpg

[Der Fahrer]

Honestly, it depends on what you want. If you want a fun, classy car for around 3K, look into late 80s/early 90s VW GTIs. They're a lot of fun. If you want to go for JDM power, I'd HIGHLY suggest a pre-1975 Datsun 240Z or 510. They're great cars that have loads of potential, and you won't have to get them to pass emissions tests.

I own both a 2001 and a 1992 GTI, and they're both a blast to drive. Everyone thinks that European cars are unreliable and expensive to maintain, but 90's VWs are some of the most bulletproof cars on the road, and are unparalleled in performance and comfort for their age. The older Datsuns perform great with their stock motors, but are also well-equipped to handle anything from SR20DETs to RB25DET/RB26DETT motors. The Datsuns would be a bit pricier, but well worth it. GL

[blerrh]

^ I've seen VQ engines in older datsuns too.