The All Purpose Knife Thread

[jackketch]

So but what is it with women and their allergy to having sharp knives in a kitchen???!

Youngest has started in a new restaurant. Loosely defined role as plongeur/prep chef/kitchen bitch. So he gets to wash up, do starters and cook breakfast. The Chef Patron is a female.

Being female she runs her kitchen a bit different. First day at work my kid comes home still in shock that no one in the kitchen was drunk/on drugs/on major tranqs or shagging in the dry store...unlike the first kitchen he worked. The kitchen, so he says, is really light, is painted pastel and has fantastic air con.

Like I said, female head chef.

As its only a small kitchen and we're still off season, a lot of the time it's just my kid and the Chef. She buys in knives for the whole kitchen to use, and she uses them herself.

After one day there my kid was so sick of there being not a single sharp knife in the whole fucking kitchen that he brought in his own roll.

Today the Chef used one of his knives and started squeeling "OMG it handles sooo well, it is soooo sharp".

No news there then...except...

His knives aren't sharp either, not sharp the way I was taught a chef's knives should be. Yes they are sharper than hers but then again so is a rusted coke can but they aren't sharp. I ran them through a warthog at 17deg, thats all...single bevel. But they're all stainless steel not carbon so they'll never be truly sharp.

Dear God, what is it with women and knives? How can any chef tolerate a blunt knife in their kitchen?

[Toothlessjoe]

You should know better as a longserving mod that this is more a bitch than a discussion about knives.

[jackketch]

You should know better as a longserving mod that this is more a bitch than a discussion about knives.

Duh, hence the title. I wasn't sure, I used to allow ranty threads here but it's AE's call not mine. He will mod his forum the way he sees fit, without your help.

[AE5150]

I think it's fine, particularly since it can lead to good discussion about proper care and maintenance of knives, an area where many need education, and where jack is a evangelical zealot by way of expertise.

There's nothing wrong with being miffed, or even ranting, particularly when the rant in question has legitimate motivation (such as this). Dull knives are not only a pain for those of us forced to use them, but can be detrimental to an efficient kitchen (seconds can count when you're slammed on the line, and a crappy knife can slow things down), as well as dangerous to boot. Nice to see she runs a clean and professional kitchen, but if she can't get her blades sharpened on a regular basis, I can't blame your kid for bringing his own blade (I did, when I was prepping and working on the line at my last place of employ).

jack, I've taken to maintaining all my knives via a stone now, which is keeping them nicely sharpened (at least for my home kitchen needs). I've been eyeballing them at present, but as soon as I get out of this god-forsaken-when-it-comes-kitchen-implements town, I'll be investing in guides. Any advice on which guides I should purchase?

[Dog]

I hate having sharp knives in my kitchen (at home) too. But that's because I have OCD. I mean, I have knives, and they're suitably sharp, but the razor sharp ones make me anxious.

[jackketch]

I think it's fine, particularly since it can lead to good discussion about proper care and maintenance of knives, an area where many need education, and where jack is a evangelical zealot by way of expertise.

There's nothing wrong with being miffed, or even ranting, particularly when the rant in question has legitimate motivation (such as this). Dull knives are not only a pain for those of us forced to use them, but can be detrimental to an efficient kitchen (seconds can count when you're slammed on the line, and a crappy knife can slow things down), as well as dangerous to boot. Nice to see she runs a clean and professional kitchen, but if she can't get her blades sharpened on a regular basis, I can't blame your kid for bringing his own blade (I did, when I was prepping and working on the line at my last place of employ).

jack, I've taken to maintaining all my knives via a stone now, which is keeping them nicely sharpened (at least for my home kitchen needs). I've been eyeballing them at present, but as soon as I get out of this god-forsaken-when-it-comes-kitchen-implements town, I'll be investing in guides. Any advice on which guides I should purchase?

If you mean guides for 'stoning' then avoid cheap clip on ones like these

http://www.surfasonline.com/images/products/25284L.jpg. The idea is sound but they still require some expertize and practice. More importantly the side that touches the stone wears down and this leads to inaccuracies.

Personally if I were going to use a traditional stone(s) (you need several sorts) then I'd give this system http://www.the1foru.co.uk/ekmps/shops/the1foru/images/rimg0079.jpg a try.

If however you mean a 'guided system' then I have been using the Warthog
'V' system and I have found nothing better for the price.

http://www.the1foru.co.uk/ekmps/shops/the1foru/images/tn_19_mid_res_1%5B2%5D(1).jpg

Only thing is that changing the angle or putting in the steels is fiddly. If I were using it in a professional situation then I'd want a bank of three of them set up.

Avoid Lansky style systems like this

http://www.alltactical.com/LANSKY/IMG/14C.jpeg

they are great for smaller knives but to do even a 9" chef's knife would take a week.

If you're really serious and have money to burn then this kind of thing is unbeatable

http://www.spitjack.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/edgepro_apex600.jpg

[jackketch]

I have knives, and they're suitably sharp

The key word is 'suitably'. I went to the butcher today and bought about a $20 lump of filet.

I asked him to take the 'silver' off -a job I hate with a passion.

The knife he used to cut the lump off was obviously sharp, I could tell how it went through the meat. But it wasn't really sharp enough to de-silver. When you think about it, taking that layer of membrane off is basically surgery and requires a scalpel sharp knife.

He took out his flexible scalpel or rather his fileting knife to do it with and he quickly noticed that wasn't really as sharp as he would have liked-although I'm sure you could have shaved with it.

If I use my massif to chop a lobster in half then I'm going to be spending an hour rehoning it.

It's horses for courses but you do need at least one really sharp knife in a kitchen. And by sharp I mean if you even just look it at the wrong way then you'll need fingers stiching.

[Hyper-dimension]

If you're really serious and have money to burn then this kind of thing is unbeatable

http://www.spitjack.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/edgepro_apex600.jpg

Yeah, that's pretty pricey at $169 + shipping, but it brings up a question I have about the knives I bought for home.

I basically have this set, plus a blade or two, such as the cleaver(of the same set):

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=14444017

I figure it's a quality set to have for home, though it's not likely considered a professional level set of knives.

My concern is, whether I could be taking better care of them, considering they cost over $1,000. I figured there was a better way for me to sharpen them than using the supplied sharpening steel, such as what you posted above, I'm just not sure whether it's really necessary for the knives I have.

Thoughts?

[jackketch]

Yeah, that's pretty pricey at $169 + shipping, but it brings up a question I have about the knives I bought for home.

I basically have this set, plus a blade or two, such as the cleaver(of the same set):

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=14444017

I figure it's a quality set to have for home, though it's not likely considered a professional level set of knives.

My concern is, whether I could be taking better care of them, considering they cost over $1,000. I figured there was a better way for me to sharpen them than using the supplied sharpening steel, such as what you posted above, I'm just not sure whether it's really necessary for the knives I have.

Thoughts?

Whatever you do DO NOT use the steel supplied. Steels don't sharpen! WE argue here among ourselves about what exactly steels do but one thing all agree on is that they don't sharp-at best they 'align' .

Using a steel is a skill in itself and i have seen more good knives ruined by bad steeling than anything else.

Personally I recommend either of the Warthog systems shown in my post above or both (if you are REALLY serious).

Or look into 'crock sticks' system

http://www.adola.nl/adola/images/SpydercoSharpmaker.jpg which will do for keeping them sharp. Should they ever need re-edging then take them to a pro.

[Hyper-dimension]

Thanks for the link, but I can't read German. ;)

English link please?

[jackketch]

Thanks for the link, but I can't read German. ;)

English link please?

First one I found (http://workingperson.com/products/85_217_269/1/4418/Spyderco_Triangle_Sharpmaker_Sharpener_204MF.html? utm_content=4418&utm_campaign=ci&utm_medium=comp&utm_source=froogle&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=4418)

Lansky also do them and so do others. So shop around.

[AE5150]

If you mean guides for 'stoning' then avoid cheap clip on ones like these

http://www.surfasonline.com/images/products/25284L.jpg. The idea is sound but they still require some expertize and practice. More importantly the side that touches the stone wears down and this leads to inaccuracies.

Personally if I were going to use a traditional stone(s) (you need several sorts) then I'd give this system http://www.the1foru.co.uk/ekmps/shops/the1foru/images/rimg0079.jpg a try.



I've heard the same thing about the clip style guides, and I had already suspected that'd be the case. I'll be using traditional stones, I think, since they can go into a drawer and as far as I'm concerned, simplicity counts. The system you recommended is something I'll look into.

At present, I've got a course side and a much finer side, and will definitely be looking into other stones. This was the quick fix, since the guy I'd gone to to have the edge reground each time has closed up shop. He was the real deal local-shop...a bit messy in the shop, a bit disorganized and definitely a bit of a strange guy, but man, he did great work for next to nothing, and his customer service was far better than the other joint in town (now the only joint in town) who you have to leave the blade with for at least an afternoon, rather than having it done right away. They're also far more expensive ($10 US for my 8" Santoku compared to $3 from my other guy), so I haven't frequented them. My knife is only a $17 machine from K-Mart, so I'm not horribly concerned about it getting goofballed (like you said, learn on a cheapo). It is, however, a really well made piece of machinery for that $17, and I use it all the time, so keeping it sharp is important.

[xxombie]

I hate having sharp knives in my kitchen (at home) too. But that's because I have OCD. I mean, I have knives, and they're suitably sharp, but the razor sharp ones make me anxious.

It's actually more dangerous to have dull knives. The duller the knife, the more pressure you have to apply. So if you slip, you've got a lot of pressure built up and you're likely to go right through your finger.

[AE5150]

Indeed. If you learn the proper way to handle a knife and how to handle the food, a sharp knife is far safer. I cringe at people who give their knife the death grip and don't curl their fingers back on the other hand, as well as when they try to cut with the very tip instead of getting things back to the heel where they belong. I learned the hard way, taking most of the tip of a finger off at the restaurant a while back. It's not a mistake I've made since.

In fact, most people outside of the restaurant (and some inside) scare the hell out of me when they're using a knife.

[jackketch]

They're also far more expensive ($10 US for my 8" Santoku compared to $3 from my other guy), so I haven't frequented them. .

You're lucky. I can't find a decent knife sharpener in the UK and have ended up sending a knife to the US for sharpening before now. Place I sent it to charges $15 for sharpening (mailing it cost $50!).

[Mantikore]

the knives that i used back in cooking class in highschool were incredibly dull. you could have spent five minutes sawing through a piece of meat.

though at home, i prefer to use a cheap knife, and sharpen it through a whetstone. A $4 knife would require a sharpening every 4 days or so (im the only one that uses my knife), and its still in good shape after 4 years.

[AE5150]

Say, jack, I went ahead and edited the title of this particular thread, and I'm setting it up as a sticky because I think the knife thread we had back &t was one of the most successful ones we had.

If you have an issue with that, let me know and I'll start a completely different thread. If you'd like to put together a knives 101 sort of post, I'm sure we'd all be grateful.

[reallystupidstuff]

Ok, I am a professional cook, in culinary school and I am fucking astounded by the original post. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU RUN A KITCHEN WITHOUT SHARP KNIVES?! It's not only very unprofessional to not take care of your knives, it's dangerous. Mother fuck.

[someone]

When i worked as a fish monger we had 3 sets of good knifes (a 'set' was 3 different size fillet knifes, two different size boning knives, and a cleaver), these knives were rotated every other day, knives were picked up by our knife guy, and he dropped a new set off.

Needless to say, we ALWAYS had sharp knives.

Right now i have a horribly cheap set of knives (got them at walmart) for home cooking (i don't do a lot of it), i hone them when they feel too dull, and i just buy a new set every time that they would need genuine sharpening. Of course, these are just GP knives, my boning and fillet knives are professionally sharpened when they need it (i actually get them done at the bass pro shop for a steal)

Most people just get used to the knives they have, they don't know what a good handle is, or how sharp is sharp, because they've been using shitty knives. Thats how it is, men, women, doesn't matter. Chefs (or anyone who knows how to properly use a knife) know these things, Cooks do not.

[AE5150]

I suppose I should point out that jackketch isn't the only one I feel is qualified to do a "Blades 101" type of post. If anyone else feels inclined, please feel free to contribute in that sort of fashion.

[samguy700]

is there such a thing as carbon aluminium i was thinking i love bowie knives its just they are more of a machete than a knife if it was lighter then it would be more of a stabbing motion than a slicing one so it retained the knife feel as its really just an oversized hunting knife.

[reallystupidstuff]

I suppose I should point out that jackketch isn't the only one I feel is qualified to do a "Blades 101" type of post. If anyone else feels inclined, please feel free to contribute in that sort of fashion.

I am busy as hell with projects and work and the like, but in 11 days I will be done with my quarter at school and I'll write up one more on different uses for different knives, buying guide and so on and so fourth.

I feel like Jackketch covered sharpening very well and I can only hope to strive for the same level

[AE5150]

I am busy as hell with projects and work and the like, but in 11 days I will be done with my quarter at school and I'll write up one more on different uses for different knives, buying guide and so on and so fourth.

I feel like Jackketch covered sharpening very well and I can only hope to strive for the same level

I look forward to it, as I'm sure others do too.

[Irukanji]

I made a knife thread ages ago....but no1 was interested so it died....

[Virus]

Yes they are sharper than hers but then again so is a rusted coke can but they aren't sharp.

Coke cans are made of Aluminum. Aluminum can not rust. Stupid German.

[jackketch]

Coke cans are made of Aluminum. Aluminum can not rust. Stupid German.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2932574134_15c9a63a63.jpg?v=0

I'm old not German.

[ComradeAsh]

Coke cans are made of Aluminum. Aluminum can not rust. Stupid German.

Aluminium. Stupid American.

[jackketch]

Aluminium. Stupid American.

LOL How on earth did I miss that one???!!

[Irukanji]

Rust is Iron Oxide(Fe2O3).

The stuff that stops the Aluminium rusting is Aluminium Oxide(Al2O3).

Techincally Aluminium can rust, just not as noticeably as iron, or as deeply as iron(to the point of structural failure).

I have an Icel, which i would say are pretty good knives. Keep their edge for a long time, and have a reasonably sharp bevel.

[ComradeAsh]

LOL How on earth did I miss that one???!!

Maybe you're just a bit rusty.

[reallystupidstuff]

Alright here goes reallystupidstuff's knife 101.

A little background on me, I am a 21 year old ex junkie, I got clean and had no idea what to do with myself. I couldn't get much of anything for a job so about 2 years ago I started washing fuckin dishes. Little did I know that it would inspire a love of cooking and a new purpose in life for me. Now I am a line cook in a 3 star restaurant and I just finished my first quarter of culinary school. I am also a narcissistic son of a bitch.

On to the knives
Anatomy of knives- First I want to teach you the parts of each and every knife, it will come in handy throughout this guide
Tang- This is the metal part inside of the handle. A full tang is when the tang goes the entire length of the handle, there are also partial tang knives. Full tang knives are generally sturdier and balanced better
Handle- This is the part you hold. Find one that fits comportable and WILL NOT SLIP OUT OF YOUR HAND
Bolster- This is between the blade and the handle and also assists in balance of the knife. I don't generally like knives with bolsters that extend all of the way down to the blade because over time, as you sharpen the knife you take away parts of the blade but not the bolster and eventually the bolster becomes lower than the blade and your knife gets all fucked.
Spine- The top smooth part of the blade, oftentimes the back of the spine is gripped between the thumb and forefinger to give better control.
Tip- Used for smaller items like shallots and mushrooms.
Edge- This refers to the entire cutting edge of the knife.
Heel-This refers to the closest few inches of the cutting edge to your hand. It is used for larger items and when you need the most leverage.

The Difference between Stamped and Forged Knives-Stamped Knives are just cur out of a sheet of metal while forged knives start as heated, pliable metal that is shaped into a knife. Stamped knives are much cheaper and softer whereas forged are expensive and very hard. The softer stamped knives are better for beginners because if you screw up sharpening them, it is easier to fix.

Catagories of Knives by Geography
There are two basic catagories of knives in most kitchens European and Asian Knives. Some things that are true about European knives are untrue for Asian knives and vice versa, from this point on I will write about each of them separately. Certain countries probably have their own variations, but I am not very well versed in that

European Knives I own almost entirely European knives. That's not to say I only make European food or only like European knives, I just feel that they suit my needs better.

Types of European Knives

http://philip.greenspun.com/comments/attachment/481790/victorinox%20chefs%20knife%2010inch%204699.jpg
The Chef's Knife or French Knife- THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT KNIFE TO HAVE IN YOUR ARSENAL! It is used for slicing, dicing chopping mincing and many other tasks in the kitchen. This will be the knife you use the most unless you work in a kitchen and have a very specialized job. (Example carving station where you will use a slicer the most.) The tapered edge should always remain in contact with the cutting board, this edge gives you a nice, smooth rocking motion, once you get the rhythm you can chop with relative ease. The Chef's Knife above is the exact one that I own and swear by. Treat your chef's knife well, hone the blade often and you will have a friend for a very long time. A German Chef's Knife is a little different, it isn't entirely straight, but straighter than the french style ones pictured above. These are various sized German Chef's Knives:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/888/img940uu.jpg[/img[
[img]http://zinke.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/anatomy-of-a-knife.png
The Pairing Knife- This is probably the second most used knife in your kitchen, but not necessarily. It is mostly used for trimming and peeling. It is also used for specialty garnishes such as tomato roses, carrot flowers, the classic tourne and whatever else you can think of.

http://images.coldsteel-knives.com/Lg/3397_1/59KBNZ_Cold_Steel_Kitchen_Classics_Boning_Knife.jp g
The Boning Knife- Comes stiff or flexible for different boning tasks, there is limited use for these, but if you have to bone out poultry or fish or meat on a regular basis its good to have.

http://www.alliedkenco.com/catalog/images/FOR40147.jpg
The Slicer- This won't get used for much more than slicing roasts or various vegetables. Another variation of this is the bread knife which will be serrated
http://images.surlatable.com/surlatable/images/en_US//local/products/detail/286062.jpgorhttp://www.betterimprovement.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bread-knife.jpg

[jackketch]

Really stupid, a good start but you need to deal with metallurgy (ie carbon v. stainless), the difference between 'french' and 'german', and 'how many inches have you got'.

The main (and only) tool of the classically trained chef is the 'massif'. ...oh yes, I forgot, you need to at least list the PROPER names for things!

:P

[reallystupidstuff]

Really stupid, a good start but you need to deal with metallurgy (ie carbon v. stainless), the difference between 'french' and 'german', and 'how many inches have you got'.

The main (and only) tool of the classically trained chef is the 'massif'. ...oh yes, I forgot, you need to at least list the PROPER names for things!

:P

carbon vs stainless is a fucking must, and yeah I wasn't sure if a 101 needed to mention the difference between french and german, but I'll throw it in there. I actually had never heard the term massif before(what can you expect, I'm in the US). But don't worry, I am not going to even MENTION American Knife Manufacturers, fucking worthless IMHO. I don't feel like much else needs to be said on sharpening... I really want to finish that post, but I got to go out and run some mother fucking errands.:mad:

[Irukanji]

Carbon Steel;
Contains 0.5(very cheap, shitty knives) to 5%+ of carbon(holds an extremely good edge, but they chip easily). Some now contain small amounts of chrome, vanadium, etc to both strengthen and prevent it rusting/dissolving when exposed to acidic foods(i.e. lemons, onions, etc). Some of the best knives ever made were/are carbon steel.

Stainless Steel;
Very resistant to rusting, staining(duh), etc. Keeps a reasonable edge, although it leaves a bit t be desired. Usually dishwasher proof and they almost always come in those boxes you buy for mum at xmas. Good for lots of work, as they keep their edge reasonably well, but when the bevel is off you should retire it and get a new one. Their also alot cheaper then a good quality carbon steel blade.

A knife has 3 distinct points long it's blade;

The Tip; Used for delicate/intricate work requiring a small point. Usually the sharpest bit of the knife, since it hardly gets used. Good for cutting sinew/whatever else you might need a fine point for.

The "mid-section"(dunno any other name :)); Good for slicing, dicing, everything. This bit will do the most work, and will probably become blunt fastest. The curve is ideally where alot of work will be done for slicing, as it alows for the knife to rock back and forths.

The heel(or the last section of the blade); Good for rough work, as the blade is much thicker here. As such, it can take the punishment, but it should be maintained just as well as the rest of the blade, if not better. Good for breaking bones(small, ofc), cutting meat, whatever you'd use a cleaver for.

Ideally the handle should be riveted to the tang, or a part of the tang(like some newer knives, i.e. Furi's.). Rivet's should keep the handle tight to the blade, and replaced as soon as they become loose or damaged. (I think brass is the ideal rivet, but maybe someone else can help me?). Some cheaper blades(such as Victorinox, with the Fibrox handles) are basically plastic molded to the tang. These are good value for money if your going to be doing ALOT of slicing, dicing, etc, as their cheap, easy to sharpen, and you wont mind parting with them at the end of the day(my lecturers at TAFE, where i learnt how to cook, used the because everything else get's stolen, so their good knives are left at home instead :)). Also, the blades are fairly thin, so they make cutting a slight bit easier.

Blade Length;

The length of the blade is important. If the blade is too long, it will feel uncomfortable, and tug down on your hand, thus straining it. Smaller blades are usually lighter, and are good for chopping en masse. Longer knives, such as sashimi knives and the average chef's knife(25-30cm) are made to cut longer things, such as julienne, slices of fish, etc. This also helps create a uniform cut, as you can see either side of the blade and can adjust if necessary.

Add to your FAQ/101 pls(unless it's useless...) :)

Add more info's if you can aswell.

/endkniferelatedrant

[reallystupidstuff]

Wolfy, I appreciate the living hell out of you're input, I am starting to get tired of keeping my 101 so organized. There are a lot of us who can go on and on forever about knives, but nobody seems to be coming in here and actually trying to find the information. So I don't know, maybe I'll back off a bit on it and see whether people actually care to learn about this stuff or not.

Btw Jackketch how's your son doing in the kitchen? I'm really not much older and cooking helped kick my ass in shape. I hope it can kick his too.

[AE5150]

Well, the whole idea of the 101 I requested was the idea that when it was done and was well put together, we'd add it to the Totsepedia/text archive. I think that there's some really excellent information being posted here, so if you guys want to collaborate on an article, I think it'd be pretty badass.

[jimany]

Aluminium. Stupid American.

This one I hate. It's fucking aluminum in north america. Though it was funny when we convinced this brit chick everyone else in the entire world was wrong just by showing her one science text. Also, aluminium sounds retarded.

[Irukanji]

Handle Materials;

Plastic;
Pro's -
Very easy to keep clean,
Knives are usually cheaper,
Usually have grip molded onto in, so is usually secure in your hand when cutting.

Con's -
Smooth plastic gets very slippery when wet
Cheaper plastics can be damaged by knives(ie. cut pieces out of it, etc)
Plastic may chip if dropped, depending on height, and quality.

Wood
Pro's -
Wont cause blisters(usually...)
Looks better
Knives with wooden handles are generally better quality
Usually offer's superior grip, over plastic and metal

Con's -
Not dishwasher or soak friendly(the wood will warp and maybe crack if soaked/put in a dishwasher)
If the wood isnt properly sealed, it can cause bacteria to get trapped in the handle
Rivet's may fall out(not such a bad thing IF they get taken care of)

Metal
Pro's -
Wont get cut, damaged etc as easily
Usually flush with the blade, so there's nowhere for the dirt to get trapped.(Usually forged from the same piece as the blade)
Blades are almost always balanced well, as the handle as as a counter weight

Con's -
Looks crap when they get scratched
Can get slippery when oil is present(water usually just get's squished out by your grip)
Knives are sometimes overly heavy for most users

Just a few Pro's and Con's of different knife handles.

Blade Materials;

Ceramic;
Pro's -
Keep their edges for a long time
Very wear resistant, and wont scratch easily
Very easy to clean, and usually dishwasher safe

Con's -
Cheap blades can chip or crack if dropped(some newer ones are tough enough to survive a few minor falls)
Hard to find knives other then "Santouko(sp?)" shaped ones.
Expensive to buy usually, and very hard to sharpen

Stainless Steel;
Pro's -
Cheap
Easy to maintain

Con's -
Usually lose's their edge quickly under moderate usage
Scratches easily
Hard to sharpen(although it depends on the overall hardness of the blade)

Stainless Carbon Steel;
Pro's -
Can take and told a very sharp edge
Easy to maintain(doesnt rust, stain, etc like normal carbon steel blades)
Generally a mid-range knife(not cheap shit, but not awesome, although there are some exceptions)

Con's -
Some blades may still rust, but normal care should prevent this
Some blades are too hard(too much carbon) and are brittle(but preventing them from being dropped should prevent this aswell)
Some blades are too soft, and will lose their edges much faster

When picking out a specific type of knife, read reviews first, see what people like about them, what people hate about them, and pick one thats right for you. No point spending alot of money on a knife you hate, right?

More info on shapes, lengths, etc tomorrow, if i can be bothered :)

EDIT: Will try and combine both my post's into 1, for readability.

[jackketch]

I'm going to butt in here. The bestes metal for a knife is good old carbon steel, and only 'virgin' steel forged before about 1980. This is why knives that look like rusty pieces of shit like this http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b116/horta/rusty_ol_sab1.jpg

still fetch more on ebay than all the most expensive modern knives.

Pros: it will take an edge like you wouldn't believe. An "If you meet God on your travels..." edge. Chances are, if it was made before WW2 that it will have been handforged by a specialist knife-blacksmith and finished by a professional Finisher-both of whom took a life time to learn their respective crafts. It is unbelievably strong but flexible. Modern carbon steel knives can break, these won't. They will not only last a lifetime but several.

Cons: The slightest moisture and it will rust faster than fast thing in a fast place. It requires constant care, sharpening (they lose their edge as fast as they get one) and love. They cost a fortune unless you're really lucky and find one on ebay being sold by someone who doesn't know what they have.

[ComradeAsh]

This one I hate. It's fucking aluminum in north america. Though it was funny when we convinced this brit chick everyone else in the entire world was wrong just by showing her one science text. Also, aluminium sounds retarded.

Stupid American. Not only do you pronounce the word incorrectly, you change your variant of spelling to match.

[jimany]

I'm so not american:mad: And in everything published in north america uses the spelling 'aluminum' so expecting anyone over here to say 'aluminium' is retarded.

[Irukanji]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b116/horta/rusty_ol_sab1.jpg


Indeed.

I need to do some research, but i intend to write a little something regards the care of knives, from carbon steel all the way through to stainless and these fucking ceramic knives....

~Space reserved for later~

[jackketch]

The Thing With The Paper Trick
-------------------------------

This is to do with sharpening, my kids asked me recently why I constantly interrupt the sharpening to go slice ribbons from a sheet of A4, held in the air by one hand while slicing with the other.

It's not to see if the knife is sharp per se, any knife so blunt it can't slice paper has no reason to be in a kitchen. Rather the sheet acts like an amplifier. It tells the sharpener by sound and feel where any imperfections are on the edge.

You could do the same by running the pad of thumb across the blade...if you fancy a night in ER that is.

[AE5150]

The Thing With The Paper Trick
-------------------------------

This is to do with sharpening, my kids asked me recently why I constantly interrupt the sharpening to go slice ribbons from a sheet of A4, held in the air by one hand while slicing with the other.

It's not to see if the knife is sharp per se, any knife so blunt it can't slice paper has no reason to be in a kitchen. Rather the sheet acts like an amplifier. It tells the sharpener by sound and feel where any imperfections are on the edge.

You could do the same by running the pad of thumb across the blade...if you fancy a night in ER that is.

This absolutely needs to be added to the Totsepedia!

[Irukanji]

The Thing With The Paper Trick
-------------------------------

This is to do with sharpening, my kids asked me recently why I constantly interrupt the sharpening to go slice ribbons from a sheet of A4, held in the air by one hand while slicing with the other.

It's not to see if the knife is sharp per se, any knife so blunt it can't slice paper has no reason to be in a kitchen. Rather the sheet acts like an amplifier. It tells the sharpener by sound and feel where any imperfections are on the edge.

You could do the same by running the pad of thumb across the blade...if you fancy a night in ER that is.

And you can see where the rough bits on the paper is, and adjust accordingly.

[Virus]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2932574134_15c9a63a63.jpg?v=0

I'm old not German.

Aluminium oxide isn't red or brown.

Stupid european...

[MissC]

on another, but still related, note - anybody got any alternatives to your standard handle+blade object?
I HATE knives (anything sharper than a table knife is avoided)

[reallystupidstuff]

on another, but still related, note - anybody got any alternatives to your standard handle+blade object?
I HATE knives (anything sharper than a table knife is avoided)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Cooking_Mandolin_with_Carrot.jpg
:confused:

[Irukanji]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Cooking_Mandolin_with_Carrot.jpg
:confused:

He said NOT sharper.....mandolins(atleast the decent ones) are fuckin sharp.

[ComradeAsh]

He said NOT sharper.....mandolins(atleast the decent ones) are fuckin sharp.

http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/single-brick.jpg?

[AE5150]

I don't think there's much to do except learn to use a knife. There aren't kitchen utensils out there that will be dull and still accomplish the amount of things in a kitchen that a good blade can do.

Why are you so afraid of knives?

[Irukanji]

http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/single-brick.jpg?

Meh, i've been injured worse with bricks then with knives.....that tell you anything?(scrapes, bruises, etc to my hands)

The ones at tafe were basically razor blades in a plastic thing to hold it at the right angle when you cut.

[Hyper-dimension]

So, if you could rate the Wusthof Classic set on a scale of 1-10, what would it be? Are they reasonable knives, or overpriced crap?

EDIT: I'd also be interested in an elaboration of French vs. German, but I'd also like to know where Japanese knives would stand. :confused:

[jackketch]

So, if you could rate the Wusthof Classic set on a scale of 1-10, what would it be? Are they reasonable knives, or overpriced crap?

EDIT: I'd also be interested in an elaboration of French vs. German, but I'd also like to know where Japanese knives would stand. :confused:

This from wiki There are two types of blade shape, French and German. The far more common German design features a pronounced curve towards the tip of the blade which allows the knife to be rocked up and down, chopping the food with the belly and heel of the blade. The French design is more triangular, with much less curve at the tip and a longer straight section of blade; it is designed to be pulled towards the user, slicing the food instead.[1] Neither style is inherently superior; personal preference will dictate the choice.

Also traditionally French handles are rounded and German square-at the bolster.

Wusthof? Usually very good and certainly a serious knife. However, what is more important than quality is how it feels in your hand. You may find Wusthof or german-style knives uncomfortable. Thing to do is try out different makes and style til you find a brand you like.

[jackketch]

Thought this might interested some of you:

This last week or so I've been working on a knife from another Sous. He asked me to try and get it sharp for him as he's been unable to get it sharp...

(btw it's taken me all week because I only do 5 minutes here and there in passing on a knife when I go outside for a smoke).

Looking at the knife for the first time I was able to tell two things about this Sous straightaway.

Firstly, he doesn't know much about knife steel and buying quality.


Secondly, he suffers from a delusion common among chef's still that banging a knife up and down a steel is 'sharpening'.

How can I tell?

Well the edge on the left side (where the logo is normally on knives) of is still reasonable but on the right it's bad. The right side has been ruined by countless steelings. I wish I had a macro lens camera so I could show you all. It's taken countless runs through the warthog to grind the damage away and get a halfway useable edge.

He'll no doubt phone me to rave about how sharp his knife now is and don't get me wrong, it'll be sharp by any normal standards.

But I am sure as fuck not going to put a real edge on it for him. I could spend another week on it for him and give it an almost 'if you meet God on your travels...' edge but it's just not worth the effort because I know that the first time he pulls it out of his roll he's going to bang it up and down that steel again.

He's college trained, I know that. Why oh why do college's still not teach proper knife care?



People, there is NO point spending your first months chef's wages on a decent knife and not buying a sharpening 'system' of some sort (be it a variety of Arkansas stones, a warthog, crock stix or japanese Water Stones). No point what so ever.

[Hyper-dimension]

^^^^I'm not sure why that is, my stepdad's an executive chef, but he never really seemed to give a shit about knives. He kept a fairly cheap set at the house, but he may have had at nicer set a work for all I know.

Those stones you mention, are those all types of stones that work with the sharpening systems you posted early on?

[Irukanji]

http://i43.tinypic.com/11lq4g5.jpg

My Knives

You can see where they were damaged early in their lives :( But i take better care of them now,(havent even been used for like 4 months....)but still...

[Fightgar]

the knives that i used back in cooking class in highschool were incredibly dull. you could have spent five minutes sawing through a piece of meat.

I used my switchblade in Home Ec. And in Tech Ed. And art.

Come to think of it, my switch was very useful in school.

[Euda]

If, for any reason, you can't find someone of quality to sharpen your knives and want a top quality edge, talk to Kevin.

http://www.knifewear.com/index.asp

The man's living his life as a testament to sweetly sharp blades.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article1137567.ece

[jackketch]

If, for any reason, you can't find someone of quality to sharpen your knives and want a top quality edge, talk to Kevin.

http://www.knifewear.com/index.asp

The man's living his life as a testament to sweetly sharp blades.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/article1137567.ece

Just read his page on Sharpening (http://www.knifewear.com/calgary_knife_sharpening.asp). He certainly sounds like he knows what he talking about, I can't fault anything he says.

[reallystupidstuff]

http://i43.tinypic.com/11lq4g5.jpg

My Knives

You can see where they were damaged early in their lives :( But i take better care of them now,(havent even been used for like 4 months....)but still...

Those look like victorinox if I ever saw em!


Jackketch, I would kill a man for some japanese water stones

[OneOfMany]

So I was watching the food network, and noticed that all the celebrity(sp?) chefs have started to use knives made with titanium.

I was wondering why they would be doing this?
Is there anything to using a titanium bladed knife vs a carbon steel blade?
Or is it perhaps a vicious marketing ploy by the evil food network?

The hosts are always going on about how sharp they are and blah blah blah... but so are stainless steals.. until they get dull and then your boned..

So I suppose im looking for opinions....

[Irukanji]

Those look like victorinox if I ever saw em!


Jackketch, I would kill a man for some japanese water stones

The left ones are. The right ones are Icel's.

[Euda]

Earlier in the summer, I picked up a couple of Messermeister knives, a Global, and a Wusthof. They've been working out great for me.

I went into a local restaurant the other day, a friend told me that their knives were the dullest they'd ever used, and took one of their bread knives. I ran it over my finger and it didn't bite. I put pressure on it and it didn't bite. It didn't even have what it took to break the skin on its own. I was beyond disturbed. I walked over to the head chef and gave him the number of a guy in Calgary that would sharpen all their house knives for a premium. It was disgusting. The chef turned me down and said that there was nothing wrong with the knives they were using and asked me to leave.

[jackketch]

Earlier in the summer, I picked up a couple of Messermeister knives, a Global, and a Wusthof. They've been working out great for me.

I went into a local restaurant the other day, a friend told me that their knives were the dullest they'd ever used, and took one of their bread knives. I ran it over my finger and it didn't bite. I put pressure on it and it didn't bite. It didn't even have what it took to break the skin on its own. I was beyond disturbed. I walked over to the head chef and gave him the number of a guy in Calgary that would sharpen all their house knives for a premium. It was disgusting. The chef turned me down and said that there was nothing wrong with the knives they were using and asked me to leave.

This thread lives still?

My youngest started as a kp/commi at a new and rather high end restaurant a couple of weeks back. The other night I asked, just out of interest, whether the knives in the new kitchen were better than where he worked before. He said that the head chef's knives are totally blunt.

That answer surprised me as how would a commi know what the chef's kives were like? So I asked him that very question, ie "Son How come you know the head chef's knives are blunt?"

His reply?

"Daaaad, I wash up. I fill the dish washer and he has me put his knives in the dishwasher"

Me: "You put his knives in the dishwasher???!?"

Him: "Yeah"

Me *in state of shock* :"y-y-y-you mean he doesn't wipe them himself?"

Him: "nah and when he 'sharpens' them he just bangs them up and down a steel"

People NEVER put a decent knife in a dishwasher.

What kind of chef doesn't clean, polish and hone his own blades??! (apparently in this case he is a very good chef and his restaurant gets good reviews).
Re:

[Irukanji]

Dam wtf?!?!?

I never let my knives touch the sink, they stay in my hands until their clean, then i stick them back in the case with their friends and leave them til next time. Give them a quick diamond steel in the morning and their fine(i know what some say, but normal steels seem to damage the knives faster then the vag-shaped steels.() shaped with the diamond dust on it, so w.e.

And i havent used them for about a year and a bit now, apart from helping my mum cook a few weeks back. I like to make sure their still up to standards every now and then.

[AE5150]

Knives in a dishwasher?

Kee-Rist, and he's the head chef?

I chewed my mom's ass a couple of months ago because the blade I bought her for Christmas hadn't been sent away for a proper sharpening, and my uncle (who owns two four star restaurants) and my cousin (who is a kitchen manager at a different four star rated restaurant) and I all wondered why the hell she hadn't sent it away to get re-honed. Keep in mind, she lives in a town of 1500 (that's one thousand five hundred for those who aren't good at math) in the middle of extremely rural Wyoming, but still. I would think, her being a culinary arts teacher, she'd know to send the blade away for a sharpen.

But hey, even she knows not to put the sumbitch in the dishwasher.

Oy...and that dude is a head chef.

Christ.

EDIT: Yes, jack, this thread stil llives. If I have my way, it will continue to live. This was one of the best threads back on the old &T, and it's extremely important information in a kitchen.

No cook worth his salt should be without a good blade in his kitchen, whether his home kitchen or in a professional kitchen. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to find decent information on keeping a blade maintained properly. You have provided much guidance for me, and I'm sure, for others regarding that. This thread will keep stuck until I'm instructed to do otherwise.

[Auschwitz Nazi Disneyland]

Nothing to add, but the information here is excellent.

[D Toups]

I personally use either Wusthof or Shun, they both work really well, but in my restaurant there is a lot of down time, a lot of the time we spend sharpening our knives. Some idiots not only bang the knives up and down the steels, but some of the steels are literally brown and have dents through out them. I will only use a steel if it is perfectly smooth and shiny. Otherwise I just use a block, which tends to get the job done.

[Nereth]

I really have no experience in this field but I do have to say this thread has been an interesting read.

I would like to ask, why can't you put a good knife in a dishwasher? I know why you shouldn't put a knife with wooden handle in there, but what about all metal, or metal/plastic knives?

[jimany]

I believe dishwasher detergent is mildly corrosive, and it wears the micro serration dealies that make the knife sharp. They probably bounce around a bit too.

Also depending on your definition of 'good', they knife might not be 'stainless'.

[DECI4]

Not only that but chances are you have hard water pumping through your dishwasher.

[Euda]

Over the holidays, I was given a few Opinel knives. I like the handle design and they're great for a bit of quick work at home.

[monotoned]

Total newbie here. Sorry to intrude, but how do you clean your blades?

[jackketch]

Total newbie here. Sorry to intrude, but how do you clean your blades?

Extremely carefully would be favourite! More than once I have stood with my hand in a bowl of washing up water that was slowly turning pinky red and thinking to myself "This.This IS going to hurt!"

That aside it comes down to what metal your knife is made out of and what grip it has. Nearly all modern knives are some kind of stainless-super-chrome-kryptonite-steel with neo-poly-whatis handles and can be washed up normally in hot water and detergent and left to dry.

Avoid putting even modern "Dish Washer Safe" knives in the dishwasher as they bounce around and bang against things. Also the extreme heat (60C) will damage them over time as does the sharp detergent.

Old style Carbon Steel knives are allergic to water or any moisture and will rust fast. I hold mine with the blade under the hot tap and if necessary wipe down/scrub with a thick microfibre cloth then dry with another cloth and then oil with a bit of whatever cooking oil I have to hand.

If the knife is particularly dirty then I will put a DROP of detergant onto a mild PLASTIC scrub pad and scrub down it's length and then rinse under the hot tap. Never get the wooden handle of a vintage knife wet. If the handle gets greasy then again a wipe with a damp microfibre cloth will usually do.

[jackketch]

Over the holidays, I was given a few Opinel knives. I like the handle design and they're great for a bit of quick work at home.

I love the classic Opinel folding knives. First 'discovered' them almost 30 years ago as a kid in France and until it became illegal here (UK) to carry anything sharper than a packet of cigarette papers I always carried one with me.

The carbon steel they use is of exquisite quality and the larger sizes are great cooking knives if you're on the move. They can be sharpened to surgical sharpness and the locking ring means that you won't lose a finger using them.

Hell, despite the heavy wooden handle, they even throw rather well!

Various top chefs have one in their knife roll as a tournier or 'go to' knife. Great for wafer thin mushroom slicing.

[themessenger]

I have a Boker Ceramic kitchen knife.

It's all I need.

Then again I'm no chef.

But it slices and dices no problem. And is very, very sharp. I chipped the tip on it and thusly I need to send it back to Boker to get reground.

[Irukanji]

Lol i went into this kitchen to do a trial, and nobody was talking, no music playing. I ended up getting into an argument with him because he was treating me like a retard. But the "house" knives(i guess) were blunt as fuck. The chopping boards were all warped and it was just a shit place to be. And it apparently makes a shit load of money.

At the end of the day, i guess it is clear;

DONT USE OTHER PEOPLE'S KNIVES BECAUSE 99% OF THE TIME THEY WILL SUCK BALLS.

But in that 1% of the time a lady friend who i went to school with borrowed it for a sec(she was giving me shit for buying it) then proceeded to tell me how nice it felt in her hand and how sharp it was. Win.

My hatchet is almost as sharp as my main knife.

[r.bonesmith]

You should know better as a longserving mod that this is more a bitch than a discussion about knives.

Shut

The

Fuck

Up

faggot.

[r.bonesmith]

I cook a lot at home. Everyone will probably rage at me for saying this, but I'll say it anyway.

I use a roto zip to put an edge on my knives, I hold the roto zip with a vice. Then I use an old boyscout wet stone, one of the ones with diamond dust in it, follow by a steel.

The edges usually hold for a while. During the process of sharpening I imagine that i am trying to shave off the tiniest surface layer of wet stone or steel. Works well, I can shave with them after, or slice a piece of newspaper floating through the air.

[AE5150]

We've not had a reply in over 14 months. I'm unsticking this.

[ratfrink]

Actually I was gonna ask for some recommendations on a cheap (under £30) 8" knife, since I lost my Global one (didn't like it anyway, no backstop meant that it felt like it was gonna slip out of my hand when chopping at high speed).

[Euda]

I'd go with a Mundial, for that price range.

[Jerk.]

I like my foreshore 8" and they're 30 pounds. I love the full flat grind but some stuff sticks to it because of it.