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View Full Version : The Mefamphetamine Thread: part Zoklet


sexualjesus
01-19-2009, 05:56 AM
before the flood of "how to mef" questions i thought id beat the race.

they dont sell 100 packs of sudafed where i live so i hope you all have your thinking caps to think of a way to make meth thats just plain smarter then anywhere elses way.

also i read a post on the last meth thread on &t about getting meth out of piss, lets hear more of that

stateofhack
01-19-2009, 05:23 PM
Lets try to stay on topic this is not god damn Bad Idea, stealing shit belongs here and here we go science!

I will say it again for the 1000 th time: MePhO.

to stir some discussion up would this work:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4251332.html

I have seen some post over on another board of ephedrine and EDA reacting to produce methamphetamine. But the product obtained was brown and all crappy but indeed active..anyone want to comment?

JoePedo
01-22-2009, 09:09 AM
usually high schools and university's dont have the chemical bcuz theres no worthwhile reason for the use of precursors

1. Go to wood shop.

2. Grab sawdust.

3. Distill benzene.

4. Go to cafeteria.

5. Find vinegar.

6. Grab salt.

7. Go to gym.

8. Make out with girlfriend under bleachers.

9. Ask your girlfriend not to tell anyone that you broke into her fucking middle school because it had a legitimate purpouse for methamphetamine precursors.

10. Pick up penny someone dropped under the bleachers to catalyze the HCl -> Cl2 conversion.

11. Take flask of phenylacetic acid you are now in posession of.

12. Walk ominously towards chalkboard.

13. ???

14. GTFO MAH LT PL0X. LURK MOAR.

15. Snort kilo of teh mefs.

16. Rent yourself out as 24h day labor as an independent subcontractor.

18. ???

19. Crash hard.

20. Kill your boss.

21. Wait for department of corrections to transfer your final paycheck to commisary.

22. PROFIT!!!!

...it could happen to you... yes, YOU! One of the catalysts was left out, to promote people lurking the fuck moar and posting the fuck less. I promise you, it can be aqquired in the average kindergarten/elementary/middle school. In fact, you actually have multiple options.

also i read a post on the last meth thread on &t about getting meth out of piss

I have no idea about teh mefs - well, okay, but a repeat of the infamous rosewater incident is usually for the entertainment of accomplished chemists, rather than serious proposals of industrial synthesis - but I can tell you that piss just shits the annie like you wouldn't belive after sitting in a 2l for about a week.

And having its gas stream dried. But anyone I already know and respect can and would do that. Possibly bound to HCl for logical storage. 'cause it takes up less space.

GirlSlangsDope
01-22-2009, 05:07 PM
OK kiddies, here is THE way to home make meth from, ingredients you can get yourself, if you try hard enough. first i will explain some basics, then post a few actual home synthesis, I will not post more advanced methods becaus people who could put them to use would not be reading this, after you get started with this, then you can move onto bigger and better things, or prison. Please do not be dumb and understand what your going to do before attempting anything, if you don't, you WILL fuck up.

this is aimed at nubs, at the bottom of my post i will have more advanced things and explanations, not all of this is written by me, rather things ive saved over the years. not that Ive done any of this shit.

there are 3 ingredients to making methamphetamine, first i will explain how to access each of those.



Iodine

you can get this fairly easy compared to the other ingredients. you can buy small bottles of "iodine tenure" at any greenwals (sp....?) or drug store in your area, buy as many small bottles of this stuff as you can.


to make your iodine from the iodine tenture you will need...


* 20-Oz Coke Bottle / or similar
* 4 Bottles Iodine
* Hydrogen Peroxide
* Muriatic Acid (hardware store, one jug can last you years)



now take your coke bottle and put in 4 bottles of iodine.


fill the rest of the bottle with Hydrogen Peroxide, make sure 1/3rd of your bottle is empty, (and do not use glass, ever).

now add about a table spoon of muriatic acid to the bottle, cap this off. shake it hard for a few minutes, you will feel a slight reaction in the bottle.

then place in the freezer, for about 40 minutes.

now take a large mason jar, and put a few coffee filters over the top, push the filters in some, so you can pour the liquid from the mix/bottle, into it, to filter it, take your time in pouring it threw the filters, after you pour all the liquid into the mason jar, you will be left with a dark purplish "goo" now, take another 10-20 filters, and wrap your original filters with it, put it on the ground and step on it, as hard as you want, get all the liquid off it, after you feel its dry enough, unwrap it, and save it in a major jar only, it will stain the fuck out of everything it touches, so don't step on it inside or touch it with your hands, then touch your clothes.

now you have your iodine, should be about 2 grams, depending on your cook, you could use more, but now you know how to make it.


:3dsmile:



Red Phosphorous


This one is a bit trickier, not trickier, just a big pain in the ass.


Go to every grocery store you can, but all of the boxes of matches they have, not the big boxes, but the small ones, with the red or black strike pad on them and the wooden sticks.

now get some strong scissors or razor blades, cut off the STRIKE PAD on all of the boxes, place the strike pad in a majon jar, do this till the jar is full of strike pads, throw the rest of the match boxes away, somewhere that people wont see, if a popo see's all this shit outside of your house or in your trash, your going to prison. keep filling up these mason jars with the stroke pads, this will take a long time, and is pretty boring, get as many full jars as you can, its a pain in the ass, but after you do it, you can re-use this ingredient. your going to want at least 4 mason jars worth, large mason jars, when there full of the strike pads.. fill the jar with acetone, from any hardware store, leave for several hours, let the acetone deattach all the red sandish stuff from the pads, this is what you want, shake every few hours, leave it for a few days, just make sure all the red sand is off the pads. when all the sand falls off, open the lid and carefully remove the strike pads with some thongs. put them in some seal able bags, filter it with coffee filters, and you have your read, you can use all most anything to clean it some more, the cleaner the better, you can also repeat the process with your strike pads if there is still red on them. save in a mason jar.

:angel:

Pseudoephedrine

for getting the other ingredient, you will have to look else where, cleaning pills should have its own megathead here anytime.


some simple ways to do the deed. (ghetto style)

THE COOK

for ratio's look below.
if your reducing 5 grams or under,
the ratios you should go with are:


5g Pseudoephedrine HCL
5g Matchbook Red Phosphorous
7g Iodine
3mL Dh2o

that means

5(e) / 5(rp) / 7(i2) / 3ml(dh2o)

(one milaliter is one gram in weight)



Items For Reaction:


--Precursors--

-Acetone
-Distilled Water
-Hotplate
-Funnel
-Duct Tape or Electrical Tape
-peanut oil
-Small Fan
-temp gauge (that you can dip in liquid to measure the heat)
-Glass coke bottle or Small Glass beer bottle
-Vinyl hose 1' Long
-flask and condenser (optional)

Making A (Ghetto) Condenser.

or do yourself a favor and buy a "FLASK AND CONDENSER", there much safer and you will end up with better results. can get them at a university or websites that sell chem glassware.

but if you want to go ghetto..

Take the 1' Vinyl Hose and fit the punch balloon over one of the ends and
tape it on there so its air-tight.

and for your flask, use a corona or beer bottle, or empty the contents of a small lavalamp glass, clean it out, and use it.

place a funnel on top so that when you add the precursors, they will go to the bottom and not get on the walls.

1st: Mix your pseudoephedrine and Red phosphorous together and then add then

to the Flask (glass bottle).

2nd: Add water to the Flask and swirl around gently getting the reactants in
contact with the water.

3rd: Get your duct tape and condenser close.

4th: Crush your iodine and add it to the Flask, quickly add the condenser to
the flask/bottle and take it on so its air-tight. VERY air tight, so no gasses or air can escape, and it will try, very hard, if i were the person doing this, i would use very thick electrical tape with many many layers, and then some duct tape. or like i said, but a real flask and condenser, so you will not have this problem, if you don't do this right, you could ruin the entire cook.


now once you have all your ingredients in the bottle.. you will see some small bubbles, and a bad smell if you don't cover it with the condenser fast. this is a good thing, it means all your ingredients are good.

now.. get your hot plate, put it somewhere very safe on a flat surface, somewhere like a garage, where there's nothing ne'er it, or if you have no choice, inside of a bathtub, to where you can draw the curtains back when your not looking at it. use whatever to make sure the hotplate is flat.

now place a tall pan on the hotplate, fill 1/3rd with the peanut oil, at least 3 inches deep. some people use a sand bath, which is a bit safer, but if your using a real condenser and flask, oil is fine, if ghetto, use wet sand, unless you want to be dangerous, and you really shouldn't. check the sand every once in a while to make sure its still wet.


now once you have your flask or ghetto flask in the liquid, make sure its very stable, wont tip over or anything, and slowly turn the heat up, as you turn the heat up, you will see more bubbles in the contents of the jar. this is a good thing, get the temp up to 130* C, let this go for 18-30 hours.


while the reaction is going, make sure you use some tape to hold the balloon condensor in the air above the bottle/flask, the reason for this is.. when it is "cooking" water and gases will go into the air, casing it to be verry foggy inside of the far, some of the water eventually goes into the balloon, and the balloon needs to be high above the glass, so when the water enters the baloon, it can fall back down the tube into the reaction fluid, pretty simple, this might be tricky at first, but you will get the hang of it. and make sure your water is dripping back down, or your shit will burn and turn black, keep it bubleing and nice and muddy!.

check every few hours, make sure you see bubbles in your purple gunk, at least a few bubbles.. if there is any gas escaping, take off the heat, let it cool down, and reseal the condenser.

after the 18-30 hours you are now DONE. just take your bottle with the "shit" in it, fill it half way with water, then filter it with some coffe filters, save the liquid, then basify.





BASIFYING

this is the best and easiest explanation i could find.


YOU WILL NEED..

-ph strips
-and lye
-non polar solvent IE colemans fuel

(hardware store)

1.

fill a beaker/large mason jar one fifth full of NaOH(lye), and fill it with water. Stir it until all the NaOH dissolves.

2.
let it cool for a half hour/hour, You do not need cold NaOH(lye) solution. You simply want a solution that has dissolved and completed the reaction NaOH(lye) and water have, which is exothermic, and you want the resulting solution to have cooled to room temperature before
using it.

3.

You should have a separatory funnel (or ghetto equivalent) with the washed reaction fluid in it.

4.
Add the non-polar solvent chosen to extract the freebase methamphetamine.

5.

Add the NaOH(lye) solution a little at a time. Pour it through the non-polar solvent.

6.

Swirl the solution after addition to distribute the NaOH. DO NOT SHAKE. Shaking just causes emulsions. You have no need to shake the solutions. Swirling is sufficient for all our purposes here. Watch the NaOH(lye) solution as it enters the reaction fluid. It will immediately turn milky white, then fade back into transparency.

7.

Add a little more NaOH(lye). The same thing will happen. Continue this process, adding a little NaOH(lye) and swirling. Take some time and give it TLC. There is no reason to shock it with a massive dose-- you can if you want, sure.

7.

1/2 If you are new to A/B extractions, you will want to take repeated pH readings of the reaction fluid, which is the bottom layer. The non-polar solvent has no pH.

8.

You are concerned with the pH of the reaction fluid. Measure the pH of the reaction fluid with a meter, a pH test strip, cabbage juice, or--gasp---your sense of sight and smell. Yes,


9.

Chemists will base to pH 12.8, the point at which methamphetamine HCl sheds that HCl and becomes freebase methamphetamine, which is non-polar soluble and insoluble in polar solutions. It will find its way to the non-polar solvent when the reaction fluid becomes pH 12.8 Add NaOH(lye) in increments until you reach pH 12.8, testing with your pH meter. after it reaches 12.8 and settles for a while, extract the non polar solvent.


10.

When you first add a small splash of NaOH(lye) solution to the fluid it will turn the fluid milky where that splash mixes, then the fluid will clear again.

11.

Continue to add NaOH(lye) solution a little at a time until the reaction fluid goes milky and stays that way. Before it does, it will go milk white and stay that way for thirty seconds or so.

12.

.You are almost there. The next addition of a few ml's of NaOH(lye) solution will make it go white and stay white. You may even seen solids beginning to form. This is not a problem.SMELL THE FLASK. Smell that fish market smell? That is the smell of freebase amines. Learn to love it. When you smell that smell, you are right where you want to be, regardless of pH.You are getting the amines!.

13.

When you have milky reaction fluid and smell the fish, your solution is at least at pH 12.8, and regardless of the precise measure, it is based strongly enough to freebase the methamphetamine HCl in the fluid.

TILT RATING FINAL STEP

-your colemans fuel
-PH strips

getting the MA out of the extracted NP solvent from the basifying.

Microwave a big glass of new distilled H2O till it is hot. pour in one third the amount of water (compared to the colemans)and shake well. drain the water out. repeat this 4 times. you are washing the NP Solvent.

now once again, add one third the amount of water to the sep. funnel and drop in a few drops of Hcl. (Muriatic Acid) Shake for a few minutes. then test the ph of the ph of the water layer. you want it to test at 7.2 or at least close to that. if it doesnt, add a few more drops of Hcl and shake the hell out of it again and test again. after it is the proper ph, drain the water layer into your visionware bowl and put it on the burner and boil down. you can finish with a hairdryer if you want. now go back to your colemans fuel in the separator funnel and add a little more distilled water. we are going to do a second pull on the non-polar solvent. add a few more drops of Hcl and shake it up again. test the ph again. looking for 7.2 again. once you reach 7.2 again drain your meth/water into your clean visionware bowl (you should have all ready scraped out the crystals from the last pull that you all ready evaporated. now evaporate again. remember that if your not in a hurry, evaporating it with a hair dryer will increase yields. Some chefs even do a third pull.


TIP

instead of using a sepratory funnel, you can use a coke bottle, when letting out the bottom layer, just use a knife to make a hole in it, or unscrew the lid.
Simple..



RATIOS AND NEED TO KNOW



LWR
(LONG-WET-REACTION)
ratios



/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



if your reducing 5 grams or under,
the ratios you should go with are:


5g Pseudoephedrine HCL
5g Matchbook Red Phosphorous
7g Iodine
3mL Dh2o

that means

5(e) / 5(rp) / 7(i2) / 3ml(dh2o)

(one milaliter is one gram in weight)

(let reflux for 18hours-30 hours)

start at 100 degrees till it gains size and goes back down,
eventualy getting it up too 135 degrees..

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



for larger reactions 7 grams +

1(e) / .8(RP) / 1.2 (i2) / .5 (DH20)
or
1(e) / .8(rp) / 1.2(i2) / .8(DH20)


(let reflux for 30 hours) AT 110 to 135 degress(in oil).

start at 100 degrees till it gains size and goes back down,
eventualy getting it up too 130 degrees.

(let reflux for 30-36 hours)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


average

Time = 30-48hrs
temp = 100C-140C(in oil)
1g : (E)
1.2 : (I2)
. 8 : (RP)
.5 : ml (dh20)


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


NEED TO KNOWS

150C is about 300F


////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


muriatic acid = hci
HYDROCHLORIC ACID (HCl, muriatic acid, chlorohydric acid, hydrogen
chloride)

na0h = lye
(SODIUM HYDROXIDE)

TCE
(Trichloroethylene Trimar and Trilene)

methanol : MEOH

hypophosphorous acid - H3PO2

HI = hydrogen iodine

hydrogen peroxide : H2O2

Amonia : or "ammonium hydroxide"
(household name, has water in it).

anydrous amonia is pure, no water.


//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Terminology

TERMS: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

"bp" = boiling point (or boiling fraction in some cases)
note: boiling points are slightly lower at high altitudes

"C" = degrees centigrade

"dens" = density (in grams per ml unless otherwise specified)

"dis:" = what it dissolves

"F" = degrees Fahrenheit

"LD50" = (lethal dose 50%) dosage at which 50% of test subjects
(rats, dogs, etc.) died.

"mis" = miscible with

"mp" = melting point

"otc:" = (over-the-counter) where to find it, etc.

"pol:" = polarity ( > = more polar than, < = less polar than )

"prop:" = physical properties

"sol:" = what it is soluble in

"tox:" = data on toxicity. if not listed, DON'T assume it is safe!

"uses:" = common uses. this is nice to know when you are asking a
store clerk to help you find it.




/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



Definitions

solvent - A substance, usually a liquid, that dissolves something else
solute - A substance that is being dissolved in something else
solubility - How easily a substance dissolves in a certain solvent
acid - A substance that gives up a proton easily
base - A substance that accepts a proton easily
salt - The product from the reaction of an acid and a base
freebase - The natural form of a drug, hasn't been reacted with an acid.

denatured- ??

You can change a drug back and forth between the freebase and the salt
as many times as you want.


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



What are some conversions that I can use?

* 1 cup = 250 ml
* 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons = 15 ml
* 1 teaspoon = 5 ml
* F = 9/5 C + 32
* Avoirdupois 1 pound = 16 ounces
* or 1 ounce = 28.349 grams




nothing is really copy pasta,

some credit to slacker for the tilting,(i did feel like writing a tutorial) some of the ratios and needs to knows may have been copied from geezemeister, or i wrote them when i was spun. that is all.

Fra
01-22-2009, 06:39 PM
Great tutorial man! Are you pretty sure about the A/B extraction you described? I think the best way is basifying and then extracting the meth with non-polar solvent...

stateofhack
01-22-2009, 08:52 PM
I am pretty sure this is copy pasta :mad:..BUT for the time being it shall remain upon until i can prove it...I warn you, if you copying shit around and posting this thread gets closed and you get infracted (just reference you god damn sources)

Otherwise, good work :) (I have not checked yet, in a rush, but i will when i get back)

Ford Prefect
01-22-2009, 10:47 PM
Merged and cleaned up. All that stealing talk was detracting from the methamphetamines. :)

GirlSlangsDope
01-22-2009, 11:24 PM
90% of it was me.

stateofhack
01-23-2009, 12:54 AM
90% of it was me.

Good, but i am still not convinced, anyways, please reference the last 10 % of it ;) It would really be a shame for something that "you" wrote to go away.

Don't take it badly, its just the result of seeing people (even in my academic sector) BS things and stealing over people works.

I am sure you can understand :)

GirlSlangsDope
01-23-2009, 01:39 AM
all good. fixed.

GirlSlangsDope
01-24-2009, 04:30 AM
state of the hack, no offence, but please reframe from making me look bad if your not sure, cleaned edited and sited.

stateofhack
01-24-2009, 01:22 PM
state of the hack, no offence, but please reframe from making me look bad if your not sure, cleaned edited and sited.

http://www.wisemouseboy.com/gallery2/d/3790-2/internet_serious_business_framed.jpg

No offense taken :)

susu
01-24-2009, 07:37 PM
No fucking source you dumb idiot!

GirlSlangsDope
01-25-2009, 03:25 AM
http://www.wisemouseboy.com/gallery2/d/3790-2/internet_serious_business_framed.jpg

No offense taken :)

lul:cool:

GirlSlangsDope
01-25-2009, 03:26 AM
No fucking source you dumb idiot!

where?

stateofhack
01-25-2009, 11:23 AM
where?

No where for you to worry about.

Nothing happened move along.

Lets try to stay on track here!

Von Bass
01-25-2009, 02:31 PM
Assuming this is the general methamphetamine thread, I see several were merged,

Approximately 425 grams of ground ephedra plant material was washed three times with methanol. The methanol washings were collected and allowed to evaporate to produce a greenish-brown tar-like substance. To this material was added 250 mL of a 57% solution of hydriodic acid and 9.5 grams of red phosphorus in a 1000 mL round-bottom flask. The flask was equipped with a working condensor and a heating mantle. The mixture was heated and allowed to reflux for approximately 5 hours. The aqueous reaction solution was filtered, made basic with NaOH (pH > 12), then extracted into trichlorotrifluoroethane (Freon 113). The organic solution was dried over anhydrous Na2SO4. Hydrogen chloride gas was then bubbled into the freon, resulting in the crystallization of the final product as the hydrochloride salt [8,12]. Samples of the reaction mixture were taken at various times throughout the synthesis. These samples were basified, extracted into methylene chloride, and analyzed on the GC-IRD and GC-MSD. Samples were taken at 60, 127, and 310 minutes into the reaction synthesis.

The above was taken from :

http://nullbyte.org/hive/hiveboard/rhod/chemistry/ephedra.html

From "Journal or Forensic Science", Vol. 40, No. 4, July 1995, pp 551-
560

"Ephedra's Role As a Precursor in the Clandestine Manufacture of
Methamphetamine

Is this plausible? As simple as it is made out? Of similar yields to normal HI reductions? If so, it seems utterly ridiculous that people still go to the trouble of working on extracting PSE from pills when you could, apparently, just run a few MeOH extractions of ephedra, which is easily found and fairly cheap... I'm sure I read at WD that people were having difficulty trying to use ephedra, I assume it must be far more difficult than is made out there, or perhaps that ephedra is highly varied in its % concentration of ephedra, or perhaps that it doesn't work at all. Otherwise it seems to me to be a far easier method thats been sitting round on arcHives for ages; its a fucking one pot!

Thoughts please ladies and gentlemen? I imagine this has been discussed to death before, so I apologise, I generally don't look too closely into amphetamine chemistry.

stateofhack
01-25-2009, 03:19 PM
Assuming this is the general methamphetamine thread, I see several were merged,



The above was taken from :

http://nullbyte.org/hive/hiveboard/rhod/chemistry/ephedra.html

Is this plausible? As simple as it is made out? Of similar yields to normal HI reductions? If so, it seems utterly ridiculous that people still go to the trouble of working on extracting PSE from pills when you could, apparently, just run a few MeOH extractions of ephedra, which is easily found and fairly cheap... I'm sure I read at WD that people were having difficulty trying to use ephedra, I assume it must be far more difficult than is made out there, or perhaps that ephedra is highly varied in its % concentration of ephedra, or perhaps that it doesn't work at all. Otherwise it seems to me to be a far easier method thats been sitting round on arcHives for ages; its a fucking one pot!

Thoughts please ladies and gentlemen? I imagine this has been discussed to death before, so I apologise, I generally don't look too closely into amphetamine chemistry.

I would call BS, there is no way to get a ephedrine out of there with just a few methanol washes. Maybe some of it, but deficiently this technique sucks.
Also if your going to buy ephedra look for the fortified extract. My cat has noticed a 20-23% Yield increase using this :)

edit: Now i am confused, i maybe wont say it is BS, but i am sure this is defetnly not the best way to get your alkaloids out, here attached are some stuff from the hive and some papers (most of the stuff i have)

http://www.2shared.com/file/4723275/96786124/info.html

let me know (i have more, i am in a rush and this is what i could grab quickly, if more is needed just post here and i will some more research)

Von Bass
01-25-2009, 03:54 PM
Hmm, I imagine you could get something out with methanol washes, whether it is plant waxes, pigment or desired alkaloid, I'd have no idea. Almost definitely, as you say, nowhere near as much with a dedicated A/B first on conc extracts. Perhaps some experimentation is called for, but sadly, if someone were to undertake the reaction going straight to amphetamine it would require the potential loss of the slightly difficult to acquire HI & RP.

Ford Prefect
01-25-2009, 09:01 PM
I'd propose possibly using the birch method if using ephedrine derived from ephedra. It seems to be far more forgiving when it comes yielding decent product despite impurities.

And if you're scared of anhydrous ammonia (I know I am :(), lithium is also quite soluble in ethylamine. (1 (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/birch.notes.html))

Radiation has also been attributed to producing solvated electrons but I'd have to look into that a bit more to see if it holds any merit in this situation. Would be pretty remarkable if it did though. Microwave meth, anyone? :)

stateofhack
01-25-2009, 09:16 PM
*Opens Microwave*
*places ephedrine derivate*
*sets to 10 sec*

Meth anyone? ;)

There has been some really good work done by the tweakers at WD, look into the EDA+Li (modified birch)...looks good to me but needs some tweaking!

Ford Prefect
01-26-2009, 01:38 AM
*Opens Microwave*
*places ephedrine derivate*
*sets to 10 sec*

Meth anyone? ;)

You jest now, but I'm willing to bet that in a decade that will be exactly how it's done. ;) Maybe not with ephedrine, but in a microwave for sure.


From a NASA report entitled Radiation-induced Preparation of Antimony from Solutions of Antimony (III) Chloride in Organic Liquids. Not entirely relevant but interesting nonetheless...

"The solvated electron has also been observed by optical absorpticrn spectroscopy during the pulse radiolysis of organic liquids such as aliphatic alcohols, amines, and some ethers (ref. 2). The high reduction potential of the solvated electron for example (Eo = 2.67 V for the hydrated electron) (ref. 3), and its high reactivity with many metal ions and metal ion complexes (ref. 4) suggest the application of radiation chemistry to inorganic synthesis on a macroscale, especially for the preparation of metal powders from metal salt solutions."

I'm at work right now, but I'll expand on this tonight.

EDIT:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5083/wavehh7.png

From Radiation Chemistry of Ionic Liquids.

It illustrates the spectrum of solvated electron in methyl-(tributyl)ammonium bis(trifluoromethylsulfonyl)amide compared to in solvents we'd be more interested in.

The thing that worries me is that they're persisting for far FAR less time then they would in NH3. But then again maybe they'd do their thing much quicker in an irradiated environment. Really couldn't tell you, but I'll keep looking.

GirlSlangsDope
01-26-2009, 03:02 AM
id like to hear it

Fra
01-26-2009, 05:32 PM
I can't understand something about meth synthesis: the cheapest way is the RP/I one; but in the long run, electro-organic one should be the best one. It's the safest one, as the main risk is the electricity, which is somehow less dangerous than ammonia. And palladium costs "just" 200$ per ounce(it's cheap, as you can use it for lifetime). And the chemicals you need are pretty household(lye,Hcl,sulphuric acid, acetic acid). So, why is this method so unused?

Ford Prefect
01-26-2009, 11:48 PM
I can't understand something about meth synthesis: the cheapest way is the RP/I one; but in the long run, electro-organic one should be the best one. It's the safest one, as the main risk is the electricity, which is somehow less dangerous than ammonia. And palladium costs "just" 200$ per ounce(it's cheap, as you can use it for lifetime). And the chemicals you need are pretty household(lye,Hcl,sulphuric acid, acetic acid). So, why is this method so unused?

Got a ref? Would it be a similar procedure to this one?

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/electro-amph.txt

Phenylalanine's only about $50 a kilo.

Hydroponichronic
01-27-2009, 12:26 AM
Yo, Ford, The guys over at WD have been over this electrochem PhAla-->amp thing. The best anyone got (many varieties of cathode tried) was goop (though I think someone might have gotten phenylalinol). Anyway, they seem to have ruled that one out. There's like 500 posts of PhAla-->amp stuff that I'm going to try and sort through at some point. The current prospect they're looking at is that whole akabori eph synth. They're trying to figure out how to n-methylate and purify alanine. If someone who's been following that thread could provide us with some sparknotes, that would be excellent.

Ford Prefect
01-27-2009, 06:56 AM
Yo, Ford, The guys over at WD have been over this electrochem PhAla-->amp thing. The best anyone got (many varieties of cathode tried) was goop (though I think someone might have gotten phenylalinol). Anyway, they seem to have ruled that one out. There's like 500 posts of PhAla-->amp stuff that I'm going to try and sort through at some point. The current prospect they're looking at is that whole akabori eph synth. They're trying to figure out how to n-methylate and purify alanine. If someone who's been following that thread could provide us with some sparknotes, that would be excellent.

Cheers. As I'm sure you can tell, meth chemistry isn't a strong point of mine. I gave the thread a quick look through and two reactions specifically popped out as significant.

First, alanine -> n-methyalanine -> pse:

To 200 ml water in a beaker or other container, add 16 ml phosphoric acid. The hardware store dairy milkstone remover phosphoric would work if account was taken of its weaker strength, and the detergent extracted. Next add 9.5 gr of NaOH to form the monobasic sodium phosphate. Stir constantly. Now to this mixture add 10 gr alanine (.11 mole). It dissolves quite easily, and the solution should be around 30 C. Next add 10 ml (.14 mole) 37% formaldehyde, and follow that with 15 gr zinc dust.Stir for 45 minutes. The zinc gradually changes from grey to blue, and this is zinc phosphate. Let the zinc settle, then filter the almost clear water solution leaving the zinc on the bottom of the flask. It should filter clear water white through a couple of coffee filters. Add 50 ml of hot water to the settled blue zinc sludge on the bottom of the flask, and swirl for a bit. Then let that settle. Filter off the water, and add this to the main charge of filtered water.Now for the important part...add bicarb powder slowly and with stirring until the pH reaches roughly pH 7. Once the pH has been adjusted to around 7, let the water clear solution sit in the fridge overnight. Great heavy masses of long needle shaped N- methyl alanine will form. It may take more than 12 hours to get the crystal growth to kick off. Once the crystal mass has stopped growing, filter it off. Then rinse it with some alcohol...at least 70%...and set the crystals on a plate to dry. Use less than 50 ml. Now the filtered liquid should be boiled down. The mixture will now be kind of yellow colored. Reduce the liquid volume by half, then add the alchol rinse from the first crop of crystals. Then put this boiled down water liquid in the fridge to collect another crop of crystals of N-methyl alanine. Total yield is about 10 gr after the crystals have dried.This would react with benzaldehyde in DMSO solvent to give yields of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine which have not been seen since the mid 90's.

Akabori reported that the reaction of N-methylalanine (1) with benzaldehyde at 130 oC for 1 h in pyridine gave pseuido-ephedrine in 16% yield
(Nipponkagakukaishi 1942, 64, 608-611).

Adding vinegar, boiling...adding HCl stripping off the solvent and benzaldehyde with steam would leave a bee with a good bit of honey

And, phenylalanine -> phenylacetaldehyde:

TO a saturated aqueous solution of phenylalaine and some sufuric acid
(not so concentrated that the evolution of NO2 gas is too vigorous or
abrupt) I added portions of NaNO2 (noxious brown gas comes off - a fume
hood or other good ventilation is necessary although carbon monoxide
evolution is not so vigorous as to be dangerous) it is desired that the
mixture be stirred to a gentle effervescence by adding portions of NaNO2
with gentle loving care, then gradually heating to boiling as gas (NO2)
evolution gets weaker,then cool and repeat. After about 20 minutes a
light brownish oily residue of drops begin to separate ourt having a sweet
and candy-like smell somwhat reminiscent of cinnamaldehyde. I continue
adding NaNO2, stirring and heating this way untill phenylalanine is spent
or I add more phenylalanine and continue as a process. If necessary add
HCl to keep acidic when NaNO2 gas is no longer emitted. I have by no
means perfected the process, maybe it would get better milage from the
NaNO2 if I started it chilled, but the phenylacetaldehyde is fine and
easily extracted from this mommie liquor with trichloroethane

Which would be followed up with...
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html

for a bit o' mefs.

I also really like the brewers yeast reduction mentioned in a couple of patents, but I think that might deserve its own thread. :)

Fra
01-27-2009, 12:44 PM
actually I was thinking about electrolytic reduction of pseudo ephedrine, described by uncle fester in his book: http://www.scribd.com/doc/2522892/Electrode-Synthesis-Uncle-Fester

lono
01-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Adding vinegar, boiling...adding HCl stripping off the solvent and benzaldehyde with steam would leave a bee with a good bit of honey


smurfings getting harder and harder for swilono so he thinks this might be good. where can u get phosphoric acid tho?

stateofhack
01-27-2009, 10:40 PM
tech wood cleaner (the wood on the outside of the boat (works great btw) ), boat shop.

lono
01-27-2009, 10:46 PM
ok thx swilono will try this and poast results

Hydroponichronic
01-28-2009, 12:28 AM
Why not just use alanine and get PPA, then proceed as you would, N-methylating at the end. I thought that reaction's easier when dealing with amp rather than alanine. Wouldn't this avoid the phosphoric acid and such?

Ford Prefect
01-28-2009, 04:51 AM
Why not just use alanine and get PPA, then proceed as you would, N-methylating at the end. I thought that reaction's easier when dealing with amp rather than alanine. Wouldn't this avoid the phosphoric acid and such?

L-alanine + benzaldehyde via akabori? I think they yields have historically been rather low, and though I haven't looked into it yet I believe you might find yourself with l-amp. Scratch that, I'm sure you'd end up maybe racemic but more likely the preferable isomer.

I'll do some reading.

EDIT: Alanine'd set you back around $10/100g. While not expensive, it's a bit more than phenylalanine. Also it looks like you would end up with a mixed product with a yield in the 15-25% range. It'd work, I'm just not sure it'd be the best way to do it.


Anyone got anything new and interesting ways to P2P? You know, like how they did it in the olden days? ;)

stateofhack
01-28-2009, 12:59 PM
L-alanine + benzaldehyde via akabori? I think they yields have historically been rather low, and though I haven't looked into it yet I believe you might find yourself with l-amp. Scratch that, I'm sure you'd end up maybe racemic but more likely the preferable isomer.

I'll do some reading.

EDIT: Alanine'd set you back around $10/100g. While not expensive, it's a bit more than phenylalanine. Also it looks like you would end up with a mixed product with a yield in the 15-25% range. It'd work, I'm just not sure it'd be the best way to do it.


Anyone got anything new and interesting ways to P2P? You know, like how they did it in the olden days? ;)

Back in the days there where quite some methods:

-Some bikers gangs would buy (or steal) drums of P2P, add methylamine and the rest. Close the drum up, leave it under a waterfall for around 1 week. Come back and if it had not blown up, extract the goodies :)

-Phenylacetic acid was also made/use with lead acetate (dry distillation, actually i think java proved that also Sodium Acetate can be used, a lot :D

- Back during the war, chemist in east Germany you to still the P2P from trains :) Chemist with balls!

Ford Prefect
01-28-2009, 08:22 PM
Back in the days there where quite some methods:

-Some bikers gangs would buy (or steal) drums of P2P, add methylamine and the rest. Close the drum up, leave it under a waterfall for around 1 week. Come back and if it had not blown up, extract the goodies :)

-Phenylacetic acid was also made/use with lead acetate (dry distillation, actually i think java proved that also Sodium Acetate can be used, a lot :D

- Back during the war, chemist in east Germany you to still the P2P from trains :) Chemist with balls!

Ha, I met a Hells Angel one time who told me about how they used to do that. :) He was a scary guy, I remember asked him as a joke if he'd ever killed a man and he told me a nice long story about how some guy tried to rip him off so he emptied an 33 round extended magazine into his back. :(

Bee careful out there guys...

stateofhack
01-29-2009, 03:30 PM
Either ways let me say it for the god knows how many time:

MePHO.

sexualjesus
01-30-2009, 08:55 AM
i hear you state, wait whats MePHO, Methyl something ?

i got bored and decided to birch up in this bitch, lithium was easy and i bought some naoh and muriatic acid, problem is this country really fucked me.
i walked into the chemist and asked for 100 pack of sudafed, guess what only comes in 24 packs... the sudafed pe comes with 100 but who cares.

ill try some other pharmacies but this kick in the balls is making me cry

so to wrap it up if your aussie you should hope these great scientists in this forum help us because no one wants to pay 16 dollars for 24 pills

Hydroponichronic
01-30-2009, 09:41 AM
i hear you state, wait whats MePHO, Methyl something ?

Benzald, I think. I haven't done as much reading on this route as I should have, but I thought I remember it to be very workable. Unfortunately, IIRC, benzald and EtNO2 are not the easiest to come by. Not to say they are unobtainable, for they certainly are, but it didn't seem like the easiest mef in the world. Frankly, the PAA route (w/ acetate salts) seems to be easy enough. And if you know JP's stuff, you know how to get PAA real easy. :)

Ford Prefect
01-30-2009, 09:45 AM
"The following new course for the synthesis of
ephedrine was proposed and carried out. Namely, under the presence
of catalytic copper, acetylene and benzaldehyde were condensed under
high pressure (14-45 atm. pressure) to form acetylene alcohol.
Next, in the presence of a mercury salt as catalyst, water was
added to form the following ketonic alcohol. From the latter, it is
proposed to synthesize ephedrine."

Good yield, pretty available chems, doesn't sound too difficult...
Japs might be onto something.

http://www.zshare.net/download/54861870cab5682c/


EDIT: Also, reductive amination of L-PAC maybe? I'll see if I can find a ref.
EDIT EDIT: http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/ephedrine.html

stateofhack
01-31-2009, 03:01 PM
Benzald, I think. I haven't done as much reading on this route as I should have, but I thought I remember it to be very workable. Unfortunately, IIRC, benzald and EtNO2 are not the easiest to come by. Not to say they are unobtainable, for they certainly are, but it didn't seem like the easiest mef in the world. Frankly, the PAA route (w/ acetate salts) seems to be easy enough. And if you know JP's stuff, you know how to get PAA real easy. :)

no no no, your getting confused! I am away atm, so i dont have my work at hand, but tuesday i will make a thread just for it, so we can sort this out once and for all!

Its MethylPhenylbutanone btw (IIRC)

GirlSlangsDope
02-01-2009, 07:24 AM
"The following new course for the synthesis of
ephedrine was proposed and carried out. Namely, under the presence
of catalytic copper, acetylene and benzaldehyde were condensed under
high pressure (14-45 atm. pressure) to form acetylene alcohol.
Next, in the presence of a mercury salt as catalyst, water was
added to form the following ketonic alcohol. From the latter, it is
proposed to synthesize ephedrine."

Good yield, pretty available chems, doesn't sound too difficult...
Japs might be onto something.

http://www.zshare.net/download/54861870cab5682c/


EDIT: Also, reductive amination of L-PAC maybe? I'll see if I can find a ref.
EDIT EDIT: http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/ephedrine.html



whaaat? thats awesome, somebody verify it for us?

Hydroponichronic
02-02-2009, 11:00 PM
As I was perusing the internet, I came across this little gem: Unstable in alkali. When heated in 5N sodium hydroxide at 110~115 for 5 hours, [Phenylalanine] decomposes forming benzaldehyde Sourced from here (Ref (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:w3jxGwOAHPgJ:www.ajinomoto.co.jp/amino/e_aminoscience/bc/amino_13.html+phenylalanine+solubility+sodium&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us)). Anyone heard anything about this?

intravenous
02-02-2009, 11:38 PM
Hey GSD, tell us about your LSD cooks.

Ford Prefect
02-04-2009, 12:39 AM
Unstable in alkali. When heated in 5N sodium hydroxide at 110~115 for 5 hours, [Phenylalanine] decomposes forming benzaldehyde

Damn. Um...

phenylalanine + NaOH -> benzaldehyde
benzaldehyde + baker's yeast -> 1-1-phenylpropanol-1-one-2
1-1-phenylpropanol-1-one-2 + methylamine + Al almagram -> L-ephedrine

orrr just

benzaldehyde + L-alanine -> PPA ala Chem Abs, Vol 47, column 3347


Yeah... fuck pills.

incorporated
02-04-2009, 01:10 AM
The server change definitely ignited some superb thinking.

JoePedo
02-04-2009, 01:38 AM
1-1-phenylpropanol-1-one-2 + methylamine + Al almagram -> L-ephedrine

...am I to assume that you mean that something along the lines of propan(1-phenyl, L-1-ol)propan-2-one will become something along the lines of of b-L-OH-a-L-Me-phenethylamine? Or something else?

If the former... hoffman elimination should yield something along the lines of, well... 1-OH-allylbenzene. If one wanted a nice racemate from p2p or something...

GirlSlangsDope
02-05-2009, 12:45 AM
whaaat? thats awesome, somebody verify it for us?

ford can you verify this for me?

The Atmoic Fishy
02-05-2009, 01:41 AM
why do u want to make meth try pot or something less destuctive

Ford Prefect
02-05-2009, 02:01 AM
The server change definitely ignited some suburb thinking.

Suburb thinking? Vat es thes?

If the former... hoffman elimination should yield something along the lines of, well... 1-OH-allylbenzene. If one wanted a nice racemate from p2p or something...

Interesting... The ref was US Pat. 1956950, I believe. I will be looking further into this though.

ford can you verify this for me?

Not atm. But it looks legit, and they are Japanese...

why do u want to make meth try pot or something less destuctive

Shuddup.

incorporated
02-05-2009, 02:05 AM
Suburb thinking? Vat es thes?

Feext.

cotton candy rebellion
02-05-2009, 12:39 PM
smurfings getting harder and harder for swilono so he thinks this might be good. where can u get phosphoric acid tho?

can be had from garden centres if your lucky. it is used as a Ph buffer in hydroponics so places that deal in smoking accoutrements may be able to point you in the right direction

stateofhack
02-05-2009, 01:02 PM
benzaldehyde + L-alanine -> PPA ala Chem Abs, Vol 47, column 3347


Yeah... fuck pills.

Low yields, racemic mixture (bitch to sep) .. :(

Hydroponichronic
02-08-2009, 06:46 AM
As I was perusing the internet, I came across this little gem: Unstable in alkali. When heated in 5N sodium hydroxide at 110~115 for 5 hours, [Phenylalanine] decomposes forming benzaldehyde Sourced from here (Ref (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:w3jxGwOAHPgJ:www.ajinomoto.co.jp/amino/e_aminoscience/bc/amino_13.html+phenylalanine+solubility+sodium&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us)). Anyone heard anything about this?
Something I realized: benzald + strong bases --> Benzoic acid + benzyl alcohol. This could be problematic. Anyone?

Another Phenylalanine-->Amp, what about instead of benzald + EtNO2, phenylacetaldehyde + MeNO2? Or would that produce phenylpropanal (as opposed to phenylisopropanal)?

King Owl
02-08-2009, 07:08 AM
[edit] belay that.

Hydroponichronic
02-11-2009, 09:07 PM
Something I realized: benzald + strong bases --> Benzoic acid + benzyl alcohol. This could be problematic. Anyone?
Unfortunately, ^^this will be true. I guess this method is still valid if one's aim is one of these.
Another Phenylalanine-->Amp, what about instead of benzald + EtNO2, phenylacetaldehyde + MeNO2? Or would that produce phenylpropanal (as opposed to phenylisopropanal)?I did some thinking about the mechanism, and I think phenylpropanal will be the product.

Hydroponichronic
02-12-2009, 03:30 AM
BTW, can anyone vouch for this (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html) method? The one bit that I doubt is the bit about imination (PhEtO + MeNH2) on contact. It can't really be that easy, can it? I thought they'd require reductive conditions or some such.

GirlSlangsDope
02-12-2009, 10:46 AM
Suburb thinking? Vat es thes?



Interesting... The ref was US Pat. 1956950, I believe. I will be looking further into this though.



Not atm. But it looks legit, and they are Japanese...



Shuddup.



i refuse to believe this, cause it wold be simply to easy for not everybody to know.

fcknut
02-12-2009, 10:53 AM
BTW, can anyone vouch for this (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html) method? The one bit that I doubt is the bit about imination (PhEtO + MeNH2) on contact. It can't really be that easy, can it? I thought they'd require reductive conditions or some such.

Seems reasonable to me. The imine should form between the amine and the aldehyde relatively easily - a reduction step is only required for reductive amination, where you are wanting to convert a carbonyl to an amine.



Low yields, racemic mixture (bitch to sep) .. :(

diasteromeric recrystallisation ?

Ford Prefect
02-12-2009, 12:02 PM
i refuse to believe this, cause it wold be simply to easy for not everybody to know.

Or maybe I'm just awesome? Either way, heres the rest...

"The following new course for the synthesis of
ephedrine was proposed and carried out. Namely, under the presence
of catalytic copper, acetylene and benzaldehyde were condensed under
high pressure (14-45 atm. pressure) to form acetylene alcohol.

C6H5CHO+ HC=CH -----> C5H5CH(OH)*C=CH (the first step)

Next, in the presence of a mercury salt as catalyst, water was
added to form the following ketonic alcohol. From the latter, it is
proposed to synthesize ephedrine.

C6H5CH(OH)C=CH(I) + H2O -> C6HSCH(OH)COCH3 (the second step)

The above acetylene alcohol (I) gives diketon (II) by copper oxide
oxidation.

C6HSCH(OH)COCH3(I) + O -> C5HSCOCOCH3(II)

(I) and (II) are hitherto important material for the synthesis of ephedrine.
It is well known that they give by catalytic reduction in presence of
methyl amine dl-ephedrine.

As the result of studies of the first step in foregoing process as
regards catalyst, pressure, pH. and fatigue of catalyst, the authors
can now make successful reaction with good yield. For the second
step also, various conditions to bring about good yield have been also
discovered. Moreover, a favourable condition under which the second
step can be smoothly proceeded from the first, only by the elimination
of the catalyst by filtration have been determined. Thus from acetyl-
ene, the ketonic alcohol is obtained directly in the yield of 82-850 of
benzaldehyde used.

C6H5CHO + C2H2 + H2O -> C6H5CH(OH)CH3

As to the third step, it is still desirable to make further investigations,
however, by this new method of synthesis, production of ephedrine on
an industrially large scale has become evidently possible."

Might only be viable on an industrial scale.

fcknut
02-12-2009, 03:49 PM
I get instantly turned off and bored when I come across representations of organic reactions written like this:

C6H5CHO+ HC=CH -----> C5H5CH(OH)*C=CH (the first step)

No offence intended like, but can we please use the pretty pictures that make organic chemistry so aesthetically pleasing ?! I know it's my own little bugbear, but it makes me so much happier, as well as elevating us elightened few above the level of those pesky mathematicians and physicists... ! ;)

It's so easy to get a nice chem drawing package, and it makes the world a lovelier place! :D

stateofhack
02-12-2009, 03:51 PM
diasteromeric recrystallisation ?

That is very intresting, i had previously heard of this but never looked into it!
Thanks for that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diastereomeric_recrystallization

Would you mind giving me a "worked" example?:(

Thanks!

fcknut
02-12-2009, 08:39 PM
That is very intresting, i had previously heard of this but never looked into it!
Thanks for that!

Happy to oblige!


Would you mind giving me a "worked" example?:(


Let's see what we can do here...

OK, the problem with the separation of enantiomers is that they have identical physical properties. That is, they behave the same in any achiral environment, such as those found in an NMR experiment, recrystallization or during standard column chromatography. Thus, they can only be distinguished in a chiral environment, such as chiral chromatography or the use of plan-polarized light.

Diastereoisomers, on the other hand, can have different physical properties. They may have differing solubilties and retention factors, and they can often be distinguished by NMR.

Thus, if we can transform a mixture of enantiomers into a mixture of diastereoisomers with different physical properties, we then have a chance of separating them.

So, if we take said mixture of enantiomers, and complex them with a single enantiomer of another substance, we can form a suitable mixture of diastereoisomers.

So, (to nick an example from a pertinent google search (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sWhafwk1u4sC&pg=PA262&lpg=PA262&dq=diastereomeric+recrystallisation+lab&source=web&ots=mfbW06bhne&sig=PuJippyZ2qMiGTYNZ0701LgxoWQ&hl=en&ei=hImUSYC6LZid-gbZ9b3vCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result)...) if we take a racemic mixture of 2-chloro propanoic acid, we can react it with the single enantiomer, R-alpha-phenylethylamine, to form the mixture of diasteroisomers.


Repeated recrystallization gives one pure enantiomer, and the other should be left behind in solution

Check the link above, and it should be clear... Though it can be a difficult concept to get your head around, and i'm a bit out of sorts today so I may not be making much sense...

If you've got any questions, just ask!

stateofhack
02-12-2009, 11:25 PM
Thanks man, that is great! I will read that tomorow morning and give it some thought (or ask my teacher) and let you know! Much appreciated!

Von Bass
02-13-2009, 12:33 PM
Thanks for explaining that too, I'd never heard of it as a method before. Very clearly explained :)

DiamondX
02-14-2009, 12:45 AM
I've never heard of that either. :p So you have the 2 enantiomers of the 2-chloro propanoic acid, and 1 enantiomer of phenethylamine. Then the phenethylamine reacts with 1 of the enantiomers, leaving the isomer alone, allowing recrystallization. Is that right?

fcknut
02-14-2009, 02:48 PM
I've never heard of that either. :p So you have the 2 enantiomers of the 2-chloro propanoic acid, and 1 enantiomer of phenethylamine. Then the phenethylamine reacts with 1 of the enantiomers, leaving the isomer alone, allowing recrystallization. Is that right?

No, you've got it slightly wrong there. The single enantiomer of phenylethylamine reacts with both enantiomers of the acid, to give two different diastereoisomers of the adduct, which can then be separated.

stateofhack
02-14-2009, 06:07 PM
No, you've got it slightly wrong there. The single enantiomer of phenylethylamine reacts with both enantiomers of the acid, to give two different diastereoisomers of the adduct, which can then be separated.

That kind of makes more sense in my head, i asked my teacher and i am pretty sure he mixed it up him self :facepalm:
Thanks for that!

DiamondX
02-14-2009, 09:24 PM
No, you've got it slightly wrong there. The single enantiomer of phenylethylamine reacts with both enantiomers of the acid, to give two different diastereoisomers of the adduct, which can then be separated.

Do you then convert one back to its original form after recrystallization? Or have the pharmacological actions not changed?

fcknut
02-15-2009, 11:47 AM
Do you then convert one back to its original form after recrystallization? Or have the pharmacological actions not changed?

Yeah, once separated, you would then release the desired enantiomer from the diasteromeric salt.

incorporated
02-17-2009, 06:10 PM
Yeah, once separated, you would then release the desired enantiomer from the diasteromeric salt.

Via basification?

Also, thank you for sharing. I was in the dark, too. Why was this never brought up when people are trying to deal with racemic mixtures before?

fcknut
02-19-2009, 04:01 PM
Via basification?

Also, thank you for sharing. I was in the dark, too. Why was this never brought up when people are trying to deal with racemic mixtures before?

I guess you would dissolve the pure diastereoisomer, then salt it out with something else more amenable to your intentions...

On a related note, while this concept is being kicked about, another (more elaborate) possibility is kinetic resolution, where one enantiomer is reacted with a chiral reagent, leaving behind an excess of the desired enantiomer.

stateofhack
02-19-2009, 06:20 PM
On a related note, while this concept is being kicked about, another (more elaborate) possibility is kinetic resolution, where one enantiomer is reacted with a chiral reagent, leaving behind an excess of the desired enantiomer.

Tell us more about it!

stateofhack
02-19-2009, 06:22 PM
I get instantly turned off and bored when I come across representations of organic reactions written like this:



No offence intended like, but can we please use the pretty pictures that make organic chemistry so aesthetically pleasing ?! I know it's my own little bugbear, but it makes me so much happier, as well as elevating us elightened few above the level of those pesky mathematicians and physicists... ! ;)

It's so easy to get a nice chem drawing package, and it makes the world a lovelier place! :D

Thinking about making this a rule....;)

incorporated
02-19-2009, 07:51 PM
Thinking about making this a rule....;)

I would be all for it. I can get a link for ISIS draw, if anyone needs it.

Von Bass
02-20-2009, 12:09 PM
I would be all for it. I can get a link for ISIS draw, if anyone needs it.

ACDlabs ftw! :)

I promise I'm going to post some fuggin' content, if simple and semi pointless, soon enough chaps, I do apologise for my lack of presence lately, not that anyone would notice.

fcknut
02-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Thinking about making this a rule....;)

Yes!

ACDlabs ftw!

I can get a link for ISIS draw, if anyone needs it.

It's still free innit? And just a google search away...

I've never much liked ISIS, in spite of it's use as an industry standard - the schemes just don't come out pretty enough for me...


I do apologise for my lack of presence lately, not that anyone would notice.

I noticed!


Tell us more about it!

Well... Gather round children... ;)

The concept is similar to diastereomeric resolution - you are taking a chiral reagent, and reacting it with a mixture of enantiomers.

However, in this case, rather than wanting to just react each enantiomer in an essentially identical manner, you are trying to preferentially react one over the other.

Basically, if you have a mixture of enantiomers (for example allylic alcohols) and you have chiral reagent (for example, using Sharpless asymmetric epoxidation), you may be able to preferentially react one enantiomer over the other. This means that you would be left with an excess of the less reactive (or "mismatched") enantiomer, because it reacts slower than the other one (the "matched" enantiomer).

Apologies again if this is confusing, I'm not wonderful with these explanations...

fcknut
02-20-2009, 01:57 PM
This may be of interest too: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11691&page=1

Formula409.

Although this precisely the opposite of resolving enantiomers.

That's not to say it's not useful though - an iterative process could allow one to convert a racemic mixture to a single desired enantiomer (such as is the case in dynamic kinetic resolution).

Hydroponichronic
02-21-2009, 05:49 AM
Not that this has anything to do with diastereomers or anything but, envision this: Phenylalanine + Bleach, heated to say...~50C (pulled outta my ass) for like...3hrs (same) then oily layer (or maybe not) of Phenylacetaldehyde forms (here (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/p2p.strecker.html) for better strecker write-up). solvate with xylene (hardware store grade, don't think purification necessary) which is then combined with methylamine generated via this (http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/methylamine.html) and heated way the fuck up. Water leaks out forming N-methyl-phenethylimine (here (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html)) once the N-Me-PEI is formed, rather than grignardin' as suggested in the above ref', one barbiers the damn thing (reaction (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html)) which looks a whole lot like MeCl (HCl + MeOH) + Zn (powder?) + N-Me-PEI + H2O --> N,a-Me-PEA

/enddrunktheories

moxsniks
02-21-2009, 11:12 AM
Ok say after a P2P run one has the d\l MA how can one separate them and have the d?

incorporated
02-21-2009, 04:09 PM
methylamine generated via this (http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/methylamine.html)

Can you relink? That's down.

I'm intrigued.

:starwars:

fcknut
02-21-2009, 05:37 PM
Can you relink? That's down.

I'm intrigued.

:starwars:


That link works fine from here...

Hydroponichronic
02-21-2009, 05:54 PM
Can you relink? That's down.

I'm intrigued.

:starwars:
I'm feeling lazy, so.. Just google methylamine synthesis from hexamine and it's the first thing that pops up.

And I don't know what it does to my theory, but Zn flakes have been known to reduce imines in solution, so there might be an imperative to add things in the right order. Like form the barbier regent (MeZnBr) before addition of the PEI
Ok say after a P2P run one has the d\l MA how can one separate them and have the d?You don't. 'Aint nothing wrong with a little LMeth. Lol, but yea, I think that's what all this talk of diastereomers is about. Haven't been following it though. Oh, I believe the process is called resolution.

Hazchem
03-01-2009, 05:28 AM
Pseudoephedrine sources these days...

All pseudo washes are old and out dated. Does anyone have any modern approaches to obtaining pseudo?

Also, I remeber finding a I2 from Povidone tek somewhere. Cannot find. I have not seen anything other than iodine-povidone tincture in the pharmacy. Any thoughts?

Ford Prefect
03-01-2009, 07:01 AM
I've gotta bit of reading to do in this thread to catch up buut I wanted to toss out an easy methylamine synth first.

"70g hexamine, stir bar added to 250ml rb flask. 200ml of cold 31.45% HCl is added. 100ml is *slowly* distilled off over about 12hrs (the slower the better). The flask is cooled, AmCl filtered off. The AmCl is washed with 50ml MeOH, the MeOH put back into the flask. The flask is then distilled until it starts to smoke. Everything is allowed to cool. 125ml of MeOH is added. Refluxed for 5 min. The heat is turned off and it is cooled slowly and undisturbed to room temp. Then it's moved to the fridge. Then to the freezer. Then it's suction filtered with saran wrap to squeeze out all the liquid possible. Then the crystals are put in 60ml of acetone and filtered again. Then spread them out on a surface at 70-90C. Normally yields about 45-50g."

Not the best yields but good enough. And its easy, which makes that okay. Credit goes to the some hiver, can't remember which bee exactly.

...

Unrelated: y so little love for chloroephedrine? Look pretty straightforward 'n Legit. Not the case?
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/popeye/popeye.chlorephed.txt

moxsniks
03-02-2009, 04:15 AM
Lets throw out another 1 :
140g of Hexamine is carefully dissolved in 400mL of Muriatic Acid
(31.45% HCI) with vigorous stirring. After all is added, heat on the
water bath. This will drive off the formed Carbon Dioxide and then
the excess water. The yield of Methylamine HCI is 270g, colour-
less to just barely white deliquescent crystals.
pg 276 total synthesis ll

Irukanji
03-05-2009, 03:41 AM
That HCl + hexi tabs procedure seems too easy.....

Essentially it's just those 2, plus water(which is almost always in the bottle of HCl anyway) and it does it's own thing right?

I'll assume theres a way from methyamine to ephedrine but i'll stop there. No point getting myself in trouble, now is there? Considering i have a bottle of HCl for my pool and hexamine tablets for my hexi stove :p

Might try a tiny little synth later, and see what i can do. No point wasting all my stove fuel, eh?

EDIT: Was looking at wikipedia and it say's it's boiling point was -6C, but i guess thats why you make it a HCl salt, right? Whats the heat required to destroy said compound should the need arise? 1000C be enough?(ie. blow torch)

Ford Prefect
03-06-2009, 01:57 AM
Lets throw out another 1 :
140g of Hexamine is carefully dissolved in 400mL of Muriatic Acid
(31.45% HCI) with vigorous stirring. After all is added, heat on the
water bath. This will drive off the formed Carbon Dioxide and then
the excess water. The yield of Methylamine HCI is 270g, colour-
less to just barely white deliquescent crystals.
pg 276 total synthesis ll

Naw man, those yields aren't happening. Not from one mol of hex.


couple more writeups...

Written by RoundBottom (karma, money, sex belong to chromic)

Preface:
First, this is a first attempt at making any MeAm.HCl so what it is supposed to look and smell like is a complete unknown (but whooee bob stinky-twat smell is bang on). Second, RB really knows nothing about chemistry other than what RB has learned since attending the Hive. Also, RB has never written a lab report in his life, so if the format is really off, please make any needed edits.

Reagents:
• 179.7g Hexamine camping fuel tablets
• 500mL muriatic acid (31.45% HCl acid)
• 550mL MeOH
• 550mL Acetone

Apparatus:
• 1L distilling flask
• 500mL receiving flask
• standard distillation setup (with cooling)
• rubber hose
• 600mL beaker
• 1000mL beaker
• 1” egg stir bar
• stir plate
• mantle and controller
• filter flask
• Buchner funnel and stopper
• filter paper
• vacuum source

Notes:
• The white hexamine tablets were a very common, “green Canadian camping products” brand. The tablets were put into a baggie and crushed to fit into a 1L flask.
• Chromic’s write-up suggests mixing the muriatic acid with the Hexamine in the flask while it sits in an ice bath. No temperature increase was noted, so this may be unnecessary.

Procedure:
Set up distillation apparatus as usual. A rubber hose was run from the vacuum inlet on the vacuum adapter to a window to expel any fumes.

Mix the muriatic and hexamine until dissolved. Took about 15 minutes, but will vary depending on hexamine type.

A gentle reflux was maintained for about 7 hours at a temperature of about 80C-85C. The heat was turned up to start the distillation. Fluid started dripping into the receiving flask at about 102C. At about 11.5 hours, grains of AmCl were observed mixing in the distillation flask.

After about 12.5 hours the temperature had raised to 107C and the drip rate had slowed down to about 1 drop per 4-5 seconds. About 270mL of clear distillate was recovered. It shouldn’t be required and can be disposed of later.

The heat was turned off and the reaction contents were allowed to cool down while still stirring. The fluid in the distillation flask had a medium yellow colour to it, and was still clear. There was also a large amount of spongy looking solids in the distillation flask that did not harden after cooling down, but remained sort of mushy. Bubbles were still evolving even after the distillation flask was allowed to cool for about 45 minutes.

A note about smell: once the distillation flask was removed the smell was really evident. It will stay in the room and on the skin for a few days. If you can at all manage it, make a fume hood, do this outside, or at least with a fan blowing out the balcony door. Smelly-twat, rotten anchovies, smegma dick… take your pick, it’s pretty nasty. Don't expect to hold a dinner party there the next day. The rubber hose is only useful while the distillation apparatus is connected.

Once cool, the contents of the distillation flask were vacuum filtered with saran wrap to squeeze out as much liquid as possible. About 250mL of fluid was collected (murky and cloudy, dark urine coloured). The crystals were put into the 600mL beaker and covered with 150mL room temp MeOH, manually mixed with a spatula for about a minute, poured into the filter. The beaker was rinsed with about 50mL MeOH and poured into the filter funnel, and then vacuum filtered, again with saran wrap. The AmCl crystals were put on a Pyrex dish to dry and kept for future use. Once dry, the ammonium chloride weighed 104g.

The combined filtrate and MeOH washes were then put back in the distillation flask, and distillation was started again. A temp of 40C was reached in 25 minutes and fluid started coming over (BP of MeOH == ~64.6C)

The temp climbed up to 108C over 5.5h. After about 300 minutes a white smoke started filling the distilling flask. This is what we are waiting for, the sublimation of the MeAm.HCl. "Distilling to dryness," means the flask doesn’t have any more water in it. It does not mean, "Boil the hell out of it till everything's crunchy"

Once the smoke appeared, the heat was turned off and the contents were left to cool and solidify for 30 minutes. Sorry, the appearance of the fluid at this point wasn't noted. Once cool, 350mL MeOH was poured into the distillation flask and a reflux condenser was put on the flask (actually, the condenser from the distillation phase can be used, as it is already set up and this isn't a heavy reflux). The heat was turned up again, and the solution was allowed to reflux for about 15 min.

While hot, the solution was decanted into a Pyrex dish (a 1000mL beaker is probably better). Either way, the container was covered with saran wrap and left on the counter for 2 hours until cool. It was then moved to the fridge and left overnight. In the morning the beaker was moved to the freezer for another 2 hours. The crystals were large crunchy flakes, and the remaining fluid had an amberish tint.

It was once again vacuum filtered with saran wrap. About 375mL of fluid was recovered. At this point the crystals were large, white, translucent, and crunchy.

The crystals were put into a 600mL beaker and washed with 200mL ice-cold acetone for 5 minutes, and again vacuum filtered with saran wrap. The crystals were then spread out in a Pyrex dish to dry. The crystals looked smaller, and had a slight grayish tint.

The remaining fluid was crashed with 300mL ice-cold acetone and about 1.5g of crystals fell out. It was decided that it wasn't worth boiling the liquid down to recover any more.

In total 98.2g of crystals were recovered.



and...



Patent DE468895
IG Farben 1925


It was found that the formation of CO2 whilst the production of mono or dimethylamine can be mostly or completely avoided by the addition of alcohol to the reaction mixture. Practically 1 mol alcohol or more to 2 mol of aldehyde are used. There is then the formate of the added alcohol formed besides the salt of the amine.
The reaction of formaldehyde and ammoniumchloride in presence of alcohol proceeds after this formula:

2HCOH + NH4Cl + C2H5OH = CH2NH2.HCl + H2O + HCOOC2H5

The produced ethylformate can be distilled out during or whilst the reaction. Besides the fact that the oxidation of formaldehyde to CO2 is avoided the addition of alcohol has the advantage that the reaction temperatur is diminished as the reaction proceeds already at 75C whereby without alcohol the reaction starts over 90C, also the the reaction proceeds faster this way. The tendency to form higher methylated amines is strongly reduced.
According to the reaction conditions it is possible to produce methylamine or dimethylamine. An excess of ammoniumsalts favors usually the formation of the primary amine, a excess of formaldehyde the formation of the secondary amine. Aquaous formaldehyde, polymeres of the aldehyde or alcoholic solutions of formaldehyde can be used.

Example:
17 parts of 40% formaldehyde, 7 parts of 96% alcohol and 8 parts of ammoniumchloride are heated up to the boilingpoint of the mixture (about 75C). The reaction proceeds mostly during the heating up, the NH4Cl goes into solution and a mostly of ethylformate consisting upper layer forms, which is removed by destillation.
After the excess of ammoniumchloride is removed and the water is destilled away a product remains which consists almost exclusivl< from monomethylamine.

Essentially it's just those 2, plus water(which is almost always in the bottle of HCl anyway) and it does it's own thing right?

Its easy, but not quite THAT easy.

moxsniks
03-06-2009, 10:32 AM
whatta ya mean? thats copy&paste from total syn. 2 but your correct 1 gets 0g of methylamine HCL if done as written . kinda fits in huh

Hazchem
03-06-2009, 05:05 PM
Hey all,

Day time:
acetaminophen 500mg
codeine 6mg
p-fed 30mg

night time:
acetaminophen 500mg
triprolidine 1.25
p-fed 30mg

are these pills suitable for clean p-fed extract. Which method would be best?

h.

Irukanji
03-07-2009, 03:05 PM
Its easy, but not quite THAT easy.

Assuming you have all the required lab ware and knowledge, of course :)

moxsniks
03-07-2009, 04:12 PM
The hexamine\hcl way is basically the ammonium chloride formo way.Read here if ya wanna do it theres even a pic of what it looks like
https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1261&page=1

beaker
03-23-2009, 09:39 PM
This has been an interesting thread to read. I am a Canadian who has been "interested" in this topic for about fifteen years now and have "researched" many of the ideas you all are presenting. One thing that is important for everyone to understand and you experienced guys will appreciate this is that even for myself with a BSc in Biochemistry and MSc in organic synth. I have still almost killed myself a few times once via organic peroxide explosion during distillation of mdp2p made in a self designed wacker variation using h2o2 and pdcl2 in tert butylalc., once while making the CNBr for use in synth of aminorex and several times while perfecting the Birch modifications needed to facilitate performing it in a clandestine environment. That being said I hope for the guys asking some of the most trivial questions that you will develop some technique before attempting some of the more advanced reactions under pressure etc.. For those saying this stuff is easy, I know you have never done it. So many things can go wrong and when they do, look out. Amalgams can run away on you like a wife who met a milliionaire, and just try to heat hexamine with conc hcl and have no fume hood. The list goes on.

To the gentlemen spewing out the procedures, very nice, either experienced or done your homework. The phenylacetaldehyde hypotheses are valid provided you are experience with the grignard associated with the imine. And thanks for the tip about ethylamine instead of ammonia.

I have produced benzaldehyde accidently from Phenylalanine by flooding it with bleach, I have no idea how it happened mechanistically but it did.

Make your ephedrine from propiophenone! Its been a while but i think its CuBr to form the bromo then methylamine to ephed. There is a way from acetophenone as well but I've not tried.

Zinc is not that easy to work with, very heavy and hard to stir, need over head hi torque stirring to reduce anything but you pride with zinc. Never use mossy no matter what the synth says, if it says to use mossy I call it a "recipe".

If you have PPA don't waste it making amph. Preludin, now that is worth the effort, reasonbly simple for the experienced chemist, one step of org. synth plus workup.

Everyone saying its hard to methylate amph. is very very correct, you'll just turn your decent stuff into a Bucky ball of methyls all over the joint.

The electrolytic reduction of psuedo is excellent but small scale only (2-3 gr).

Best way to make menh3 is from nitromethane and al amalg with a dry ice condensor to catch runaway gas, then work up the slop by boiling it out and running over naoh or treat the filtrate with water adsorbing molecular seives to dry then boil out gently. You don't have to worry about the azeotrope if you boil out of anhydrous alc.

The birch requires no prior purification of standard psuedo pills (in canada anyway) just grind em up and throw them in, seriously, minimum yeild 50% better if using one pot. Which brings me to my main point. This is a lot of discussion to make meth when the one pot modified birch is so effective and requires no pill separation. Separation of psuedo from acetominophen is.....well.....if thats how you want to spend your time I can't talk you out of it. I spent many a sleepless night trying to develop a water extraction or similar to remove codeine phosphate from t1's so I could have nice pure tylenol without that horrible codeine shit but it just forms this horrible mung that you can't filter, centrifugation becomes your only hope. Here we are lucky our psuedos just take simple water extraction and a acidbase partition for great purity but I don't even do that, I have even used crushed 12 hour suda's with great success. Hard to beleive but try it......only for the birch though.

This is getting verbose so thanx for the read and I look forward to more posts from the exploratory chemists around here.

thank you.
stay in and out of trouble.

upforawhile
03-25-2009, 05:13 AM
hows bout this small quantity way.

1 energizer lithium battery

2 boxes equate (20count)

xylol

anhydrous

muriatic acid

aluminum foil

makes around a ball

HeaT
03-25-2009, 12:44 PM
You jest now, but I'm willing to bet that in a decade that will be exactly how it's done. ;) Maybe not with ephedrine, but in a microwave for sure.


From a NASA report entitled Radiation-induced Preparation of Antimony from Solutions of Antimony (III) Chloride in Organic Liquids. Not entirely relevant but interesting nonetheless...

"The solvated electron has also been observed by optical absorpticrn spectroscopy during the pulse radiolysis of organic liquids such as aliphatic alcohols, amines, and some ethers (ref. 2). The high reduction potential of the solvated electron for example (Eo = 2.67 V for the hydrated electron) (ref. 3), and its high reactivity with many metal ions and metal ion complexes (ref. 4) suggest the application of radiation chemistry to inorganic synthesis on a macroscale, especially for the preparation of metal powders from metal salt solutions."

I'm at work right now, but I'll expand on this tonight.

EDIT:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/5083/wavehh7.png

From Radiation Chemistry of Ionic Liquids.

It illustrates the spectrum of solvated electron in methyl-(tributyl)ammonium bis(trifluoromethylsulfonyl)amide compared to in solvents we'd be more interested in.

The thing that worries me is that they're persisting for far FAR less time then they would in NH3. But then again maybe they'd do their thing much quicker in an irradiated environment. Really couldn't tell you, but I'll keep looking.

Excuse me if i'm mistakn, but would a catalyst be needed if the electron density was high enough? or needed at all? it looks like those wavelengths are infrared to uv, not microwave... could iror uv be used? Maybe in dmf?

Hydroponichronic
03-26-2009, 02:08 AM
OK, so I've got some pill-cleaning theories that I'd like some input on. I came across this (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:026tGYhseOgJ:designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/pseudo.xtract.straightbee.html+cleaning+pseudoephe drine+pills&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) and I don't know if it's out of date or not, or for that matter whether it covers pse with other active ingredients. If it does, it seems pretty reasonable, and there's probably not much use in my theories. On the other hand...

Acetaminophen has that phenol which should form water soluble salts upon addition of strong bases. I don't know about the reactivity of pse's benzyl alcohol, but if it won't salt this looks like a good way of pulling the APAP. I've also heard other problems like the weird polymers (eudragit) gunking things up, but I've also read that strong oxidizers destroy the polymers, so adding bleach seems like it might do the trick. I don't know how the pse will fare though, (worse case, I figure, you wind up with some mcat). So polymers defeated, I've also heard it's tricky to precip the pse 'cause it has water solubility in base form. This could be solved by addition of iodine, maybe. According to the Merck index on iodine, it forms brown insoluble precipitates with amines. So, with polymers solvated, iodine is added and the magic iodoamines are filtered off to be reduced late back to their original glory by NaOH or some such. Maybe HCl. IDK, you guys think of something. :p

nshanin
03-29-2009, 01:19 AM
I have produced benzaldehyde accidently from Phenylalanine by flooding it with bleach, I have no idea how it happened mechanistically but it did.

Could you expand on this? How did you confirm that you got benzaldehyde?

beaker
03-29-2009, 11:37 PM
I wish I could explain that. What was being attempted was the oxidation of the benzyl alcohol of psuedo in an effort to synthesize mcathinone. Being that ocl is a very strong oxidizer and in hindsite it was added WAY too fast and at about 5degrees C which is too warm it may have oxidized the psuedo to its components in their highest oxidation states. Its something that has confused me but I don't waste too much time on it as going to benzaldehyde from psuedo is totally counterproductive unless you need PPA for aminorex or l-ephedrine for phenmetrazine, still one step forward two back. The benzaldehyde was confirmed by nuclear mag. resonance. Strange though as the carbonyl group (the highest oxidation state acheived although the carboxylic acid would be the highest possible for the benzyl) could be accommidated by methcathinone. Its got me, but I appreciate the interest, if you really want to know more I can post the notes of the synthesis attempt and look into it more.

nshanin
03-30-2009, 12:57 AM
So you oxidized PSE to benzaldehyde, not phenylalanine? Look back at your first post.

Hydroponichronic
04-10-2009, 07:38 AM
Hey, this might be of some interest to y'all, the Merck index (14th) says phenylacetaldehyde has been prep'd in high yields from styrene oxide. This sounds to me like an easy hop (MnO4, ClO, ClO3, or Cr2O7?) from Styrofoam. This would only be necessary if the Strecker degradation of of phenylalanine doesn't turn out to be preparatively useful. That plus a little of this (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html) equals easy mefs. Req'd would be Phenylacetaldehyde (duh), methylamine, Mg metal, Et2O, MeBr (or MeI), and the testicular fortitude to run a Grignard.

Thoughts?

sexualjesus
04-10-2009, 09:31 AM
hows bout this small quantity way.

1 energizer lithium battery

2 boxes equate (20count)

xylol

anhydrous

muriatic acid

aluminum foil

makes around a ball

called a birch, if you have equate you can get naptha from walmart as well as coleman fuel instead of xylol. since the most expensive thing there is the ammonia you may as well make a bigger batch with a bigger yeild because you will have a shit tonne of anhydrous ammonia. fuck i wish we had a walmart here

sexualjesus
04-10-2009, 09:38 AM
Hey, this might be of some interest to y'all, the Merck index (14th) says phenylacetaldehyde has been prep'd in high yields from styrene oxide. This sounds to me like an easy hop (MnO4, ClO, ClO3, or Cr2O7?) from Styrofoam. This would only be necessary if the Strecker degradation of of phenylalanine doesn't turn out to be preparatively useful. That plus a little of this (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html) equals easy mefs. Req'd would be Phenylacetaldehyde (duh), methylamine, Mg metal, Et2O, MeBr (or MeI), and the testicular fortitude to run a Grignard.

Thoughts?

so you want to get to phenylacetaldehyde from styrene, phenylacetaldehyde seems pretty OTC to me, i could be wrong. thanks for the link though that actually seems like a fun rxn

stateofhack
04-10-2009, 09:50 AM
so you want to get to phenylacetaldehyde from styrene, phenylacetaldehyde seems pretty OTC to me, i could be wrong. thanks for the link though that actually seems like a fun rxn

Me thinks, your thinking acetaldehyde is pretty otc...

sexualjesus
04-10-2009, 10:07 AM
Me thinks, your thinking acetaldehyde is pretty otc...

not so much, i just assumed it was OCT, its not exactly otc but unless you melt down styrofoam first to extract the styrene neither is styrene.

http://www.free-cigarettes.com/cigarette-additives.html
no 477 down the bottom.

food additive, used for icecream and cigarettes and found in fruit and chocalate. dont know if its watched, you could ring up some small time cigarette company and ask them where to get it, i doubt it would raise to many flags because using it for mefs is unheard of, just say your makeing flavoured cigars and you need a hand.

actually youve given me some ideas, if only i had the testicular fortitude to pull of a grignard and didnt already have several packs of overpriced lithium batteries that are dying to be used...

sexualjesus
04-10-2009, 11:04 AM
"The following new course for the synthesis of
ephedrine was proposed and carried out. Namely, under the presence
of catalytic copper, acetylene and benzaldehyde were condensed under
high pressure (14-45 atm. pressure) to form acetylene alcohol.
Next, in the presence of a mercury salt as catalyst, water was
added to form the following ketonic alcohol. From the latter, it is
proposed to synthesize ephedrine."

Good yield, pretty available chems, doesn't sound too difficult...
Japs might be onto something.

http://www.zshare.net/download/54861870cab5682c/


EDIT: Also, reductive amination of L-PAC maybe? I'll see if I can find a ref.
EDIT EDIT: http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/ephedrine.html


man re-reading over this entire thread ive noticed theres a lot of hard work put into it via the pro's, this idea seems very unique, i wonder if you could use formaldehyde instead of benzaldehyde (probably not but what changes would you need)

im going to say it again what i said from the bs forum, methane could be really useful for this synth since with a few otc chems it can be turned into both formaldehyde and acetylene.

Less significant methane-derived chemicals include acetylene, prepared by passing methane through an electric arc, and the chloromethanes (chloromethane, dichloromethane, chloroform, and carbon tetrachloride), produced by reacting methane with chlorine gas. However, the use of these chemicals is declining. Acetylene is replaced by less costly substitutes, and the use of chloromethanes is diminishing due to health and environmental concerns.

chrloroform isnt otc in this country either so its just win win (not that i need chloroform).

i cant remember where i read but i think ephedrine and psuedoephidrine are interchangeable with birch reactions (dont flame me if thats a definete negative)

the second post on this forum is actually a very brilliant thought from stateofhack with napthalene being reduced by electrolysis to form isotetralin, which for the sake of birchers around the world will absorb ammonia, meaning instead of buying anhydrous by the tankload we can now just steal a bunch of cold packs and poor it in without needing to keep it colder then your ex girlfriends heart (dry ice is expensive and knowing me i would opt out to use ice packs which will end terribly...)

not that napthalene seems OTC, used as a fumigant, with anyluck there will be some home insecticide that only uses napthalene in it but it wont be anhydrous and its beyond me how to distill isotetrafin so my lithium doesnt explode.

im not really being helpful but shit, theres some good ideas floating around here and i got nothing better to do then point them out, think about it, buy some fumagant, and you dont have to talk your way into the pants of some pharmacist to get some ephidrine

Jackwright
04-30-2009, 04:53 PM
This has been a fascinating read, thanx a million. I'm glad I opened the thread while it is still short enough to read all the way through it relatively quickly. I'll be checking back regularly for updates.

Unfortunately, when pill extraction got more complicated than a methyl alcohol extraction and microwave evaporation, I started buying my speed again. A few local arrests and the fact that I live in a dry camp were also deciding factors. Consequently, you all have advanced light years ahead of where I left off. Which leads me to believe that you may be able to help me out with a few things.

First, once upon a time I had an 85 gallon drum that was about 2/3s full of phosphoric acid (HP3O4) ortho 65% and through experments I was able to plate red phos off with a battery charger. The problem was in my probes. I tried both carbon rods and copper tubes; both left fine particulates mixed in the red. I don't recall what I tried with the carbon but washed the copper laden red with nitric acid (HNO3) then water and got red that was the right color until it had been exposed to the air for a couple of hours. Then it turned darker, almost black. I also tried washing it in sulphuric acid (H2SO4) with the same results, only it didn't turn as dark.

What I'm wondering is if anyone can recommend a decent probe material or a wash that can be done at a dry camp that is powered by a generator ?

I am also intrested in this 'Birch' you mention. My method was push/pull followed by (Ibelieve you call it) an A B water extraction in the 4 to 16 oz range.

I will probably have lots of questions once I've gotten a little further into my invintories and assessments. Thanx again.

fcknut
04-30-2009, 05:35 PM
Dunno about your problem I'm afraid, unless you could just filter off the particulates using, for example, activated charcoal.

But my main question is, what is a "dry camp" ?!

Ford Prefect
04-30-2009, 06:18 PM
Excuse me if i'm mistakn, but would a catalyst be needed if the electron density was high enough? or needed at all? it looks like those wavelengths are infrared to uv, not microwave... could iror uv be used? Maybe in dmf?

Frankly my understanding of mw reactions is extremely limited. I am aware they can do wonderful things and I firmly believe that they are the future of clandestine chemistry but I still doesn't understand how they work half the time. From many of the papers I've read it sounds like I'm not exactly alone though. They're pretty neat machines.

That being said, I don't see why you'd need a catalyst. Look into the radiation treatment of PCBs if you're interested. Most of the mw research concerning solvated electrons seem to be in that field.

man re-reading over this entire thread ive noticed theres a lot of hard work put into it via the pro's, this idea seems very unique, i wonder if you could use formaldehyde instead of benzaldehyde (probably not but what changes would you need)

Can't really see that working. One really does have quite a few options in the synthesis of ephedrine though, the more research you do and the more banning pills seems like one big practical joke. Thanks for bringing that particular ref up again though, I'd forgot about it and would like to look it over a bit more closely. I'm not sure if it'd be as easy as I had previously though though. They claim awesome yields (85%+)

catalytic copper + acetylene + benzaldehyde -> acetylene alcohol
acetylene alcohol + water + mercury salt -> ketonic alcohol

The third step in then catalytic reduction with methylamine, but they don't mention a yield nor basic procedure. Anyways, here's the paper again: http://tinyurl.com/cebxv3 It'd be great if to get another option on the basic procedure.

The biosynthesis from L-PAC also looks especially interesting, if anybody have an pertinent infos on that they should surely post em. Ephedra has GOT to be the easiest though. I know a couuple stores around here operated by nice chinamen that would be more than happy to sell you pounds of foliage at a time. An' with something a simple as this you'd be bound to score you quite a bit of precursor...

Simmer 500g of ephedra at 95C for 45mins in dH2O water with pH 1-2. Filter and made pH up to 14 with NaOH SLOWLY and lotsa stirring. Then steam distill yourself at least two liters. Reduce pH to 6 and evap the water.

Pretty simple.

...

I'm kinda thinking RP/I is dead. Or at least hopefully will be soon. Like fuck should anyone keep scratching matchboxes when we could develop simple and safe birch-likes. Itsa fact that lithium in soluble in ethylamine, and I'd be a little surprised if you couldn't just through sum Li and E in a amine mix such as the one resulting from EtBr and NH4 and get some product. Testing must take place!

Medium-scale prep. of ethyl bromide: http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/prep.asp?prep=cv1p0025

If it does prove unfeasible I guess there's always EDA which could be made by reacting ammonia with 1,2-dichloroethane (degreaser/paint remover/solvent). State knows more on this that I though.

Lithium in polyamines: http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5675038



/thoughts.

Jackwright
04-30-2009, 07:12 PM
Dunno about your problem I'm afraid, unless you could just filter off the particulates using, for example, activated charcoal.

But my main question is, what is a "dry camp" ?!

I'm completely off the grid; no electricity, running water or indoor plumbing...so to speak. I have 12 volt power, some solar, a generator, an outhouse and I haul my water...and labware that you wouldn't even bother looking for at a camp like that. Difficult to simulate anything like a lab like environment.

fcknut
04-30-2009, 10:58 PM
I'm completely off the grid; no electricity, running water or indoor plumbing...so to speak. I have 12 volt power, some solar, a generator, an outhouse and I haul my water...and labware that you wouldn't even bother looking for at a camp like that. Difficult to simulate anything like a lab like environment.

Apologies for off-topicness, but that's crazy! How do you run a computer?!

For your previous question - I'm unfamiliar with the chemistry. Do you have solution of P with suspended particulates, or a suspension of P and other solids?

zunox1
05-04-2009, 02:54 AM
hows bout this small quantity way.

1 energizer lithium battery

2 boxes equate (20count)

xylol

anhydrous

muriatic acid

aluminum foil

makes around a ball

Could you possibly expand on the procedures here?
I like reading through this thread, however I have nothing to contribute. my chemistry knowledge is extremely small.
also, by ball.. do you mean 8-ball?

Ford Prefect
05-04-2009, 03:04 AM
Could you possibly expand on the procedures here?
I like reading through this thread, however I have nothing to contribute. my chemistry knowledge is extremely small.

It's called a birch (technically a birch-like) reduction: http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/birch.mrclean.html

Anhydrous ammonia is a toxic gas that has the neat little ability to cause skin and tissue burns though, so the procedure (at least in the thus far mentioned incarnations) should REALLY not be attempted unless you know exactly what the fuck you're doing.

Other potential birch-likes: http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/birch.notes.html

...annnnnd now it's time to do your own research. Good luck.

zunox1
05-04-2009, 03:27 AM
Thank you very much :).

nshanin
05-04-2009, 03:46 PM
Electro-birch via electrolysis of LiCl in low-boiling amines (from Fry's Synthetic Organic Electrochemistry 2nd edition):

J. Am. Chem. Soc. 85 2858 1963
J. Am. Chem. Soc. 86 5272 1964
J. Org. Chem. 34 3970 1969
J. Org. Chem. 35 261 1970

This looks really easy, but Fry has fooled me before (aromatic polyhalogenation, for instance, doesn't really work like it should :mad:) so I'll get these refs for y'all to review when I get to the library.

Ford Prefect
05-05-2009, 12:01 AM
Electro-birch via electrolysis of LiCl in low-boiling amines

Uh, awesome.

nshanin
05-05-2009, 05:47 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8f31d9c0c76e7d999bf8d6369220dcab68f25174 8ea5d20cce018c8114394287

Not as good as I had hoped, but there's clearly potential.

nshanin
05-05-2009, 08:08 PM
Currently awaiting Synthesis, 1972 391-415, which is a comparison of the birch and the above reaction on several functional groups.

stateofhack
05-05-2009, 11:37 PM
Youwillwake i deleted your previous post because your asking to be spoonfed. Please GTFO and do your own research, this is my last warning.

Ford Prefect
05-06-2009, 01:02 AM
catalytic copper + acetylene + benzaldehyde -> acetylene alcohol

Reppe chemistry! Pretty sure that's how this works now.

"Walter Reppe discovered that in the presence of metal catalysts, acetylene can react to give a wide range of industrially significant chemicals.... Such as preparing ethynyldiols from aldehydes according to the equation:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Reppe-chemistry-endiol.png"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reppe

Learn something new ery'day...

Anyways, if my understanding of this Reppe mechanism is semi-correct then those Japs basically adapted the industrial preparation of 1,4-Butynediol to use benzaldehyde and acetylene as reactants instead of formaldehyde and acetylene.

Time to dig up sum patents...

nshanin
05-06-2009, 03:38 AM
^ I, for one, would love to hear about how they prevented the reaction from going to the diol.

In other news, my ref came!

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8f31d9c0c76e7d999bf8d6369220dcab68f25174 8ea5d20cce018c8114394287

Positive results, it seems that the electrochemical variation will work, but probably only if done in ammonia. Base + Ammonium salt shouldn't be difficult, but working with more available alternatives (alkylamines, ethylenediamine, etc.) should be easy, though more likely to fail from what I've gathered.

This needs experimentation.

Ford Prefect
05-06-2009, 05:40 PM
^ I, for one, would love to hear about how they prevented the reaction from going to the diol.

Aye, me too. Finally managed to track down the source patent:

W. Reppe Brit. 508062 (http://www.evilshare.com/a28ef8b6-8bb7-102c-8cae-0030489aabc6)

I'll give it a more thorough lookover later on today. The Japanese reference is terrible vague as far as conditions are concerned though, so this might prove rather valuable.

Positive results, it seems that the electrochemical variation will work, but probably only if done in ammonia. Base + Ammonium salt shouldn't be difficult, but working with more available alternatives (alkylamines, ethylenediamine, etc.) should be easy, though more likely to fail from what I've gathered.

This needs experimentation.

Very cool.

The issue isn't that anhydrous ammonia is difficult to make though, it's that it's difficult to work with. Nevertheless, experimentation is definitely a must.

piohi
05-12-2009, 10:10 PM
Per my understanding, in the traditional I/P/ephedrine synthesis, the P converts the I into HI, then the HI reduces the ephedrine to idoephedrine (and then ehpedrine, I presume... though all anyone has told me is that the idoephedrine is "reduced".).

Now, P is dangerous (runaway reactions, gaseous phosphorous products...) and difficult to get (it's watched, and scraping matchbooks sucks).

So, I looked into it, and it seems that HI can be produced by bubbling H2S through I2(aq). And H2S, while not friendly, is easily procured:
1) Buying it in bulk. Like in gas cylinders. I don't think this is watched, though I haven't truely looked into it.
2) Reacting a metal sulfide with a strong acid.

Number 2 looks good for the small-scale syntheses that ephedrine is well-suited for (ephedrine, being watched, can't be procured in large amounts easily).
In particular, it is easy to obtain Sb2S3 from match heads - approximately 7g/1000 paper matches, IIRC. Just cut, soak in water, strain through a can with small holes in the bottom, decant the liquid a few times... the Sb2S3 should be left as a fine powder in the bottom of your flask.

This look at all reasonable to you guys?

Do any good absorbers of H2S exist, to prevent gas being farted into the lab during production?

stateofhack
05-13-2009, 12:03 AM
Per my understanding, in the traditional I/P/ephedrine synthesis, the P converts the I into HI, then the HI reduces the ephedrine to idoephedrine (and then ehpedrine, I presume... though all anyone has told me is that the idoephedrine is "reduced".).

Now, P is dangerous (runaway reactions, gaseous phosphorous products...) and difficult to get (it's watched, and scraping matchbooks sucks).

So, I looked into it, and it seems that HI can be produced by bubbling H2S through I2(aq). And H2S, while not friendly, is easily procured:
1) Buying it in bulk. Like in gas cylinders. I don't think this is watched, though I haven't truely looked into it.
2) Reacting a metal sulfide with a strong acid.

Number 2 looks good for the small-scale syntheses that ephedrine is well-suited for (ephedrine, being watched, can't be procured in large amounts easily).
In particular, it is easy to obtain Sb2S3 from match heads - approximately 7g/1000 paper matches, IIRC. Just cut, soak in water, strain through a can with small holes in the bottom, decant the liquid a few times... the Sb2S3 should be left as a fine powder in the bottom of your flask.

This look at all reasonable to you guys?

Do any good absorbers of H2S exist, to prevent gas being farted into the lab during production?

You will kill yourself using H2S.

Ford Prefect
05-13-2009, 12:21 AM
You will kill yourself using H2S.

Aye, not only is it toxic and quickly deadens your sense of smell, it is also flammable and heaver than air. All in all, not win combinations. If you'd rather not birch, I'd think possibly the best way to utilize ephedrine in this current climate is through a hydrolysis to phenyl-2-propanone. (1 (http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/phenylacetone.html#ephedrine))

Anyways, sorry I didn't respond to your PM about this piohi. Been ridiculously distracted 'o late.

tom
05-15-2009, 10:16 PM
when all the sand falls off, open the lid and carefully remove the strike pads with some thongs. put them in some seal able bags, filter it with coffee filters,

remove the strike pads with what, ??

Leshrac
05-17-2009, 04:34 PM
Now, P is dangerous (runaway reactions, gaseous phosphorous products...) and difficult to get (it's watched, and scraping matchbooks sucks).


RP is contained in more than you think. There are a LOT of OTC products that contain highly watched chemicals that you can't buy.

Distress flares for starters, usually contain about 60g of RP. Well sure they're a little bit more expensive than matchbooks but what the hell.

RP can also be legally bought in poland and hungary. It's not that hard to find some chemistry students in the very east of europe willing to sell RP to you for about 30$ per kilo.

Then there's the final option of making it yourself. It's not particularly hard but you ABSOLUTELY NEED protective gear.

Tick Tock
05-19-2009, 08:34 PM
Back on LT, someone linked to a really neat article which was a methamphetamine synthesis if I remember correctly. I could have sworn the article came from Rhodium, but I have been digging through Rhodium and I can't find it. I remember it being for a small scale synthesis (15 grams I think.) It involved using a certain pool cleaner and a chemical derived from plant sources. I'm almost positive the pool cleaner was Oxone, and I'm not sure what the chemical derived from plants was. I don't know for sure if it was from Rhodium, but it was definitely written in the style of everything else on the Rhodium archive.

I know that's pretty vague, but I have been googling and searching like crazy and no luck yet. I figured it was worth asking you all. I wish I could just search the forum like I would have done in the past; unfortunately I can't. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and could link me to the article or even just point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for any inaccuracies in my description. I'm trying to remember the best I can, but it's been a while since I read the article.

stateofhack
05-20-2009, 09:31 AM
Back on LT, someone linked to a really neat article which was a methamphetamine synthesis if I remember correctly. I could have sworn the article came from Rhodium, but I have been digging through Rhodium and I can't find it. I remember it being for a small scale synthesis (15 grams I think.) It involved using a certain pool cleaner and a chemical derived from plant sources. I'm almost positive the pool cleaner was Oxone, and I'm not sure what the chemical derived from plants was. I don't know for sure if it was from Rhodium, but it was definitely written in the style of everything else on the Rhodium archive.

I know that's pretty vague, but I have been googling and searching like crazy and no luck yet. I figured it was worth asking you all. I wish I could just search the forum like I would have done in the past; unfortunately I can't. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and could link me to the article or even just point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for any inaccuracies in my description. I'm trying to remember the best I can, but it's been a while since I read the article.

Aldol condensation of benzaldehyde and MEK and then Oxone to yield 1-phenyl 2-propanone?

nshanin
05-21-2009, 07:03 PM
Back on LT, someone linked to a really neat article which was a methamphetamine synthesis if I remember correctly. I could have sworn the article came from Rhodium, but I have been digging through Rhodium and I can't find it. I remember it being for a small scale synthesis (15 grams I think.) It involved using a certain pool cleaner and a chemical derived from plant sources. I'm almost positive the pool cleaner was Oxone, and I'm not sure what the chemical derived from plants was. I don't know for sure if it was from Rhodium, but it was definitely written in the style of everything else on the Rhodium archive.

I know that's pretty vague, but I have been googling and searching like crazy and no luck yet. I figured it was worth asking you all. I wish I could just search the forum like I would have done in the past; unfortunately I can't. If anyone knows what I'm talking about and could link me to the article or even just point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for any inaccuracies in my description. I'm trying to remember the best I can, but it's been a while since I read the article.

Ephedrine (chemical derived from plant source)+Oxone==>MCat
MCat [H]==> MA.

Aromatic ketone reduction should be a breeze for electrochemists.

stateofhack
05-22-2009, 12:50 AM
Ephedrine (chemical derived from plant source)+Oxone==>MCat
MCat [H]==> MA.

Aromatic ketone reduction should be a breeze for electrochemists.

Nice :D

Tick Tock
05-22-2009, 02:24 AM
Aldol condensation of benzaldehyde and MEK and then Oxone to yield 1-phenyl 2-propanone?

I'm pretty sure this is the article I was thinking of. I remember the article going to phenyl-2-propanone, and then any of the various routes to methamphetamine could be used from there. I also see that benzaldehyde is found in plants. I see some benzaldehyde information on Rhodium, but nothing exactly like the procedure you described. Do you have a link/ref? I apologize if it really is on Rhodium and I'm just overlooking it, but I really don't see any reference to this specific procedure. I like the sound of it already though, seems completely OTC. :) Why has this route not been discussed in the thread yet? Low yields or something of the sort?

nshanin, the route you posted is also cool, but I know ephedrine was not the plant chemical I was thinking of. I should have mentioned that in my original post, sorry.

stateofhack
05-23-2009, 04:27 AM
I'm pretty sure this is the article I was thinking of. I remember the article going to phenyl-2-propanone, and then any of the various routes to methamphetamine could be used from there. I also see that benzaldehyde is found in plants. I see some benzaldehyde information on Rhodium, but nothing exactly like the procedure you described. Do you have a link/ref? I apologize if it really is on Rhodium and I'm just overlooking it, but I really don't see any reference to this specific procedure. I like the sound of it already though, seems completely OTC. :) Why has this route not been discussed in the thread yet? Low yields or something of the sort?

nshanin, the route you posted is also cool, but I know ephedrine was not the plant chemical I was thinking of. I should have mentioned that in my original post, sorry.

On totse i had posted much of my stuff, there was a lot of discussion and seeing as it makes phenyl-2-propanone pretty much otc. I really don't see what they have against!

Look on WD, in the thread about it, i posted some papers and there was a lot of discussion on it!

HeaT
05-23-2009, 06:14 AM
I apologize for being by usual crazy, off topic drunken random self, but can phenylananine (that one amino acid...) be reduced to meff or amph with general OTC stuffs and NaBH4? i know LAH will do the trick, but that's a little harder to get.... and gosh, phenylalanine is just so plentiful!!

Leshrac
05-23-2009, 10:29 AM
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie0503601

Ultrasonic Synthesis of Benzaldehyde from Benzyl Alcohol Using H2O2: Role of Ultrasound

Seems interesting :)

fcknut
05-23-2009, 12:33 PM
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie0503601

Seems interesting :)

Ultrasonic Synthesis of Benzaldehyde from Benzyl Alcohol Using H2O2: Role of Ultrasound (http://www.evilshare.com/b7a2d3bc-4798-11de-9043-0030489aabc6)

stateofhack
05-23-2009, 03:09 PM
I apologize for being by usual crazy, off topic drunken random self, but can phenylananine (that one amino acid...) be reduced to meff or amph with general OTC stuffs and NaBH4? i know LAH will do the trick, but that's a little harder to get.... and gosh, phenylalanine is just so plentiful!!

Java posted a paper about it on SM and WD.

nshanin
05-23-2009, 05:44 PM
Has the aldol with benzaldehyde been experimentally verified yet? All I've seen so far is theory and such an easy method would certainly have spread to the praxis by now if it worked as well as described.

stateofhack
05-23-2009, 06:38 PM
Has the aldol with benzaldehyde been experimentally verified yet? All I've seen so far is theory and such an easy method would certainly have spread to the praxis by now if it worked as well as described.

My cat has verified it but many people from WD and a few from SM have proven it to work :D

Ford Prefect
05-30-2009, 03:35 AM
MW Meth-

...in water?

"...when water is exposed to radiation, the water absorbs energy, and as a result forms chemically reactive species that can interact with dissolved substances (solutes). Water is ionized to form a solvated electron..." [1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_chemistry#Water_chemistry)]

or surfactants...

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es9704601

... maybee transformer oil?

"Solvated electrons formed by irradiation of the oil react either with the PCB to lead to dechlorination or with the aromatic hydrocarbons present in the oil to form radical anions. These species are shown to transfer an electron to chlorinated biphenyls relatively rapidly, leading to dechlorination. The rate constants for several such reactions, determined in 2-propanol solutions, are in the range of 107−108 L mol-1 s-1. These rapid reactions explain why PCB can be dechlorinated in oil despite the presence of aromatic hydrocarbons in the oil and despite the formation of biphenyl as a radiolysis product that reacts rapidly with solvated electrons." [2 (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es9900914)]

...

I really really think a microwave birch-like could be the future of clandestine ma production.

Hydroponichronic
05-30-2009, 07:25 AM
So, first, let me ask a (probably stupid) question. Can one run a birch with Mg metal instead of Li? IIRC, Mg has a pretty high reduction potential.

Second, what's the word on that akabori reaction (PPA from Ala + Benzald)?

I apologize for being by usual crazy, off topic drunken random self, but can phenylananine (that one amino acid...) be reduced to meff or amph with general OTC stuffs and NaBH4? i know LAH will do the trick, but that's a little harder to get.... and gosh, phenylalanine is just so plentiful!!

Phenylalanine --> mef? Easy. All one needs is: PhAla, bleach, dH2O, Naphtha, NaBr (pool store), H2SO4 (HW store drain unblocker), MeOH (heet), hexamine (buy online), CaO (quicklime, HW store) Mg metal (online, or fire-starter blocks), Et2O ('still from starter fluid).

PhAla + dH2O + Naphtha + slow addition of bleach --> Phenylacetaldehyde (PhEtO) in the naphtha (link (http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/p2p.strecker.html))

Hexamine + heat --> methylamine (link (http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/methylamine.html))

2NaBr + H2SO4 --> 2NaSO4 + 2HBr (like HCl gassing, but with HBr)

HBr + MeOH --> MeBr (pretty sure if one bubbled HBr into refluxin' MeOH one would get MeBr gas, which could be condensed into the liquid via a liquid propane cold finger or dry ice. Or quite possibly a CaCl2/ice bath)

Methylamine + PhEtO + CaO --> PhEtNMe + Ca(OH)2 (the quicklime soaks up water to keep that imine forming)

PhEtNMe + Mg + MeBr -->(in ether)--> mef!

(refs for the last two steps: here (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.phenylacetaldehyde.html))

My overseas buddy has been giving this a shot, but is being stupid and using intangibly small quantities of PhAla in the initial strecker (plus has not bothered to titrate his bleach to find the conc) so the first step has been giving him some trouble (lol). The beauty of this route is it's general otc-ness. while some parts of the precursor synths are complicated, it starts with 100% easy-to-find otc shit.

Leshrac
05-30-2009, 09:31 AM
Hexamine can be found at any DIY store. Esbit Tablets (fire-starting blocks).

nshanin
05-30-2009, 10:12 PM
Hydro, I asked a veteran on another board and he said that he too had problems with the Strecker on phenylalanine with bleach. He said to use H2O2 instead.

Hydroponichronic
05-30-2009, 11:48 PM
Hydro, I asked a veteran on another board and he said that he too had problems with the Strecker on phenylalanine with bleach. He said to use H2O2 instead.Sweet! My buddy who ran the bleach strecker got that characteristic smell of PhEtO, but also a load of other nasties. I don't suppose I could pester you with question about the H2O2 procedure?

nshanin
05-31-2009, 07:23 AM
Sweet! My buddy who ran the bleach strecker got that characteristic smell of PhEtO, but also a load of other nasties. I don't suppose I could pester you with question about the H2O2 procedure?

You'd have to pester the old man. He's at blacklight.

innermatrix
07-18-2009, 02:56 AM
i have a 250 ml flask and a 200 ml vigreux distilling apparatus,,will this work for for a condenser?

nshanin
07-18-2009, 03:29 AM
i have a 250 ml flask and a 200 ml vigreux distilling apparatus,,will this work for for a condenser?

If you can set it up right.

innermatrix
07-18-2009, 06:42 PM
will conecting the vigreux to the flask sealed off with the stopper in the top work?

nshanin
07-18-2009, 08:00 PM
will conecting the vigreux to the flask sealed off with the stopper in the top work?

Only if you're refluxing.

fcknut
07-18-2009, 08:20 PM
will conecting the vigreux to the flask sealed off with the stopper in the top work?

You should never heat a sealed system...

Unless you have the correct equipment of course, but a flask, condensor and stopper will not cut it.

stateofhack
07-19-2009, 01:03 PM
will conecting the vigreux to the flask sealed off with the stopper in the top work?

If you want to have flying glass then yes, please do go ahead by all means :rolleyes::p

Check Practical Organic Chemistry by A.I. Vogel, the latest copy if you can, it will teach you a great deal!

moxsniks
07-19-2009, 01:32 PM
Hexamine + heat --> methylamine ....made it before? pathetic opps sorry a pet cat does it all even makes Benzocaine:applaud: almost

innermatrix
07-19-2009, 03:41 PM
ive been reading the Chemistry by A.I. Vogel, but cant seem to find the answer what if you were to put a seal a punch ballon on top of the vigreux would that work

fcknut
07-19-2009, 07:10 PM
ive been reading the Chemistry by A.I. Vogel, but cant seem to find the answer what if you were to put a seal a punch ballon on top of the vigreux would that work

I don't know what a punch balloon is, but I assume it is a strong balloon...

I guess this would be ok, but you would really be much better off just getting yourself a condensor...

If your solvents aren't too volatile, a vigreux column (without a stopper or balloon) may be fine - effectively you would be using it as an air condensor.

innermatrix
07-19-2009, 09:23 PM
thanx,, what would be the size and type condenser to work with a 250ml flask

Hydroponichronic
07-20-2009, 07:22 AM
thanx,, what would be the size and type condenser to work with a 250ml flask
First and foremost, this has nothing to do with mef. MAKE A GLASSWARE HELP THREAD. I keep seeing the mef thread bumped and I get all excited. I think "man maybe someones finnally found that super-easy kidiot-proof mef formula that will end the war on drugs!" and all I get is "I needz help wif my glasswarezzz."

But, as for an actual answer, it varies. My friend owns several 250mL flasks and they all have different size top holes. And based on what is getting distilled, one may want a different length and type of condenser. Although, with all condensers, the longer/skinnier the condensing tube, the better. And chances are most will want something water cooled (there are many types of water cooled condensers, on this note, I don't believe it matters too much which one to go with).

nshanin
07-20-2009, 06:32 PM
that super-easy kidiot-proof mef formula that will end the war on drugs!"
Dream on.

hrsepwrjnky
10-17-2009, 02:12 PM
[QUOTE=GirlSlangsDope;36664]OK

TILT RATING FINAL STEP

-your colemans fuel
-PH strips

getting the MA out of the extracted NP solvent from the basifying.

Microwave a big glass of new distilled H2O till it is hot. pour in one third the amount of water (compared to the colemans)and shake well. drain the water out. repeat this 4 times. you are washing the NP Solvent.

now once again, add one third the amount of water to the sep. funnel and drop in a few drops of Hcl. (Muriatic Acid) Shake for a few minutes. then test the ph of the ph of the water layer. you want it to test at 7.2 or at least close to that. if it doesnt, add a few more drops of Hcl and shake the hell out of it again and test again. after it is the proper ph, drain the water layer into your visionware bowl and put it on the burner and boil down. you can finish with a hairdryer if you want. now go back to your colemans fuel in the separator funnel and add a little more distilled water. we are going to do a second pull on the non-polar solvent. add a few more drops of Hcl and shake it up again. test the ph again. looking for 7.2 again. once you reach 7.2 again drain your meth/water into your clean visionware bowl (you should have all ready scraped out the crystals from the last pull that you all ready evaporated. now evaporate again. remember that if your not in a hurry, evaporating it with a hair dryer will increase yields. Some chefs even do a third pull.


swihpj dreamed that it is much easier to build a getto gasser and use the HCL gas to bring it back directly out of the non polar solvent.by attaching it to a salt in its freebase state there is a lot less room for fucking up the shit from bringing the ph down to low turning it nasty yellow and horrid tasting.nothing but nice white powder easy to recrystalize.
peace out swihpj

dcook
10-18-2009, 04:09 AM
flares

I lol'd when I saw it used in Breaking Bad. And you thought TV didn't teach you anything important.

Check out 0:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b4LpvFfVNI

niggar hater DELUXE
10-19-2009, 03:17 AM
1. Go to wood shop.

2. Grab sawdust.

3. Distill benzene.

4. Go to cafeteria.

5. Find vinegar.

6. Grab salt.

7. Go to gym.

8. Make out with girlfriend under bleachers.

9. Ask your girlfriend not to tell anyone that you broke into her fucking middle school because it had a legitimate purpouse for methamphetamine precursors.

10. Pick up penny someone dropped under the bleachers to catalyze the HCl -> Cl2 conversion.

11. Take flask of phenylacetic acid you are now in posession of.

12. Walk ominously towards chalkboard.

13. ???

14. GTFO MAH LT PL0X. LURK MOAR.

15. Snort kilo of teh mefs.

16. Rent yourself out as 24h day labor as an independent subcontractor.

18. ???

19. Crash hard.

20. Kill your boss.

21. Wait for department of corrections to transfer your final paycheck to commisary.

22. PROFIT!!!!

...it could happen to you... yes, YOU! One of the catalysts was left out, to promote people lurking the fuck moar and posting the fuck less. I promise you, it can be aqquired in the average kindergarten/elementary/middle school. In fact, you actually have multiple options.



I have no idea about teh mefs - well, okay, but a repeat of the infamous rosewater incident is usually for the entertainment of accomplished chemists, rather than serious proposals of industrial synthesis - but I can tell you that piss just shits the annie like you wouldn't belive after sitting in a 2l for about a week.

And having its gas stream dried. But anyone I already know and respect can and would do that. Possibly bound to HCl for logical storage. 'cause it takes up less space.

http://l.yimg.com/l/tv/us/img/site/43/36/0000034336_20061020191519.jpghehe anything that requires 12 steps isn't worth doing

Fractals
10-19-2009, 05:46 AM
If so then why doesnt everyone just buy ephedrine?

How old are you?

nshanin
10-19-2009, 09:04 AM
18, you probably ask because I sound like a stupid noob and I am, but back to my question..

Read the noob thread.
Read the rest of this thread.
Use google.
Scour dea.gov.
Get back to us if you have any questions.

Fractals
10-19-2009, 09:11 AM
In the 90s the RP/I method was very popular. The government caught on, and now to buy pseudoephedrine or ephedrine you need to show ID, put your name/address on a list, and there is a monthly limit. (Pseudo)ephedrine is also much harder to extract now because the pharm companies are putting gaks, or chemicals designed to fuck up an extraction or RP/I (if no extraction is used). I asked because most people I know are very aware of the fact that pseudoephedrine was use so extensively.

After typing that up I read your entire post and realized you were talking about pure PE online, not pills from the store. :facepalm: I assume it's because it's watch by the DEA, similar to sassafras oil. There are probably guides to extract specific brand pills, but if you do a little research on the ingredients list (and solubilities of these chemicals) you should be able to figure out a good way to extract the goods. If you need help make a thread, but you'll get flamed if you don't do any research for yourself first.

hrsepwrjnky
10-19-2009, 04:26 PM
i have a 250 ml flask and a 200 ml vigreux distilling apparatus,,will this work for for a condenser?

if you are doing lagit chemestry stick with required glassware if working on the down low find a stopper with a hose connection,connect an 18 in hose with punch ballon on other end,seal stopper to flask,hose to stopper and ballon to hose using black electrical tape during reaction,works just fine.
peace out swihpj

Hydroponichronic
11-07-2009, 07:35 AM
I found out theres a chapter in Uncle Festers book about how to brew your own ephedrine, Ive been looking for something like that.see akabori reaction. They've been working on it over at SM.

Is there any simple way to extract ephedrine from ma huang or ephedra sinica?A guy in my town got busted in 2004 for having 75lb of ephedra sinica and the cops say he was using it as part of his meth lab.Havent found a easy way to get ephedrine from those plants, maybe someone here could help.Some folks round here know a thing or two. Hope JoePedo or SoH see this. It can be done relatively easily, IIRC, assuming you can source ephedra.

stateofhack
11-07-2009, 03:58 PM
Ephedra can be sourced easily around the world. If i intented to purchase some i would visit your local chinese herbal place or acupuncture.

1 Kg shouldn't run you more then 60-80$.

As for extraction its a easy, do a little searching and you can find some full tutorials on it.

~peace

missingno
11-14-2009, 12:20 AM
does anyone know any remaining archives, webpages, etc. of The Hive???

i cant find the grand website nemore :mad:

Leshrac
11-14-2009, 03:07 PM
I BE MISTAKEN !

Ephedra 10% usually.

Tybalt
11-14-2009, 05:09 PM
You do know you're going to need a SHIT TON of ephedra to extract any useable material right ? (provided you don't fuck the extraction up that is)

What was the ratio again ? Average 1.4% ? Like meh... I hope you guys have a big garage because you're going to fill up left right down and to the top if you hope to get a good amount.

Extraction of alkaloids, unless in huge concentrations (peyote for ex, containing sometimes up to 5% mescaline etc), should be left to labs and the industry. A private individual just cannot make it viable.

I disagree, if this is a method where its a material that isn't watched or involves significantly more effort, a good alkaloid extraction procedure can be made to be rotated to produce a decent amount of product, especially for pharmaceutical reactions.

stateofhack
11-14-2009, 07:11 PM
You do know you're going to need a SHIT TON of ephedra to extract any useable material right ? (provided you don't fuck the extraction up that is)

What was the ratio again ? Average 1.4% ? Like meh... I hope you guys have a big garage because you're going to fill up left right down and to the top if you hope to get a good amount.

Extraction of alkaloids, unless in huge concentrations (peyote for ex, containing sometimes up to 5% mescaline etc), should be left to labs and the industry. A private individual just cannot make it viable.

No, this is incorrect (Average 1.4 %? Please don't pull figures out of your ass). And you don't need a shit ton. Around 200 g of ephedra after a/b,washes and pull of choloroform/dcm/tce will yield around 30-40 g of material. Most of the time the plants have from 5-8 % (10 % the fortified extracts).

Also, A/B are idiot proof...

Space Monkey
11-26-2009, 12:35 PM
Ephedra is extremely easy to find, they call it Ma Huang in Chinese medicine, they sell it as a slimming tea in Europe, it's very cheap, I think you can also find distributors online to acquire larger amounts.

blacklung
12-01-2009, 10:15 PM
As for extraction its a easy, do a little searching and you can find some full tutorials on it.


Here is the tutorial I believe you were referring to specifically:

http://www.mediafire.com/?wmmmqztyjz5

Hydroponichronic
12-03-2009, 04:11 AM
Here is the tutorial I believe you were referring to specifically:

http://www.mediafire.com/?wmmmqztyjz5

The benzyl alcohol would salt up in a soln that basic, would it not? And this salt would then be sol in H2O, not CHCl3.
:confused:

fcknut
12-03-2009, 07:40 PM
The benzyl alcohol would salt up in a soln that basic, would it not? And this salt would then be sol in H2O, not CHCl3.
:confused:

Nah, the pH of the solution would be around 13-14, and the pKa of (unsubstituted) benzyl alcohol is somewhere around 15 (all values are 'educated' guesses...) so this shouldn't be an issue...

stateofhack
12-03-2009, 08:22 PM
Nah, the pH of the solution would be around 13-14, and the pKa of (unsubstituted) benzyl alcohol is somewhere around 15 (all values are 'educated' guesses...) so this shouldn't be an issue...

Indeed it is not an issue. Also DCM works just fine i hear from a cat, but he does reccomend using 10 % sol. of the carbonate for the washing, as the 5 % does seem to to do much. Also, i don't think his solvent system for re-crystallising is the best honestly...

Hydroponichronic
12-03-2009, 08:29 PM
Nah, the pH of the solution would be around 13-14, and the pKa of (unsubstituted) benzyl alcohol is somewhere around 15 (all values are 'educated' guesses...) so this shouldn't be an issue...

Your pKa value is good, but the soln contains 180g NaOH in 1200-1250ml water, which is (NaOH=39.9971 g/mol) so that's 4.5 moles of OH- (assuming near complete dissociation) in 1250mL, which is a 3.6molar OH- soln, and 14 + log[3.6]=14.5 , plugging this into my %ionization eqn*, we get an 11%. Since we don't know the pKa value of the sub'd benzyl alcohol, caution should be taken because if the pKa is less than 15.4 (unsub'd BzOH) then there will definitely be tangible losses.

*%ionization of a weak acid: (10^(-pKa))/(10^(-pH) + 10^(-pKa))
-see my theories thread. I also have eqn's for %ion for weak base, pH of weak base/acid soln as function of conc.

hotbod
01-11-2010, 01:19 AM
does anyone have the guide that was used when no chemicals were on watch lists? meaning that NOT guides that expect you to use house hold chemicals and pills from the store.

oh and does this guide look right?

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=1155538&postcount=14

fcknut
01-11-2010, 05:56 PM
does anyone have the guide that was used when no chemicals were on watch lists? meaning that NOT guides that expect you to use house hold chemicals and pills from the store.

oh and does this guide look right?

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=1155538&postcount=14

Just do a search of the literature.

missingno
02-03-2010, 06:29 PM
No, this is incorrect (Average 1.4 %? Please don't pull figures out of your ass). And you don't need a shit ton. Around 200 g of ephedra after a/b,washes and pull of choloroform/dcm/tce will yield around 30-40 g of material. Most of the time the plants have from 5-8 % (10 % the fortified extracts).

Also, A/B are idiot proof...


wouldnt swiy either defat the ephedra herb by boiling, filtering, repeat 2x OR repeated methanol washings to the ephedra herb first before performing a/b?

stateofhack
02-03-2010, 11:10 PM
[QUOTE=missingno;1538266]wouldnt swiy either defat the ephedra herb by boiling, filtering, repeat 2x OR repeated methanol washings to the ephedra herb first before performing a/b?[/QUOTE

No need for a defat step:p

apprentice
02-27-2010, 07:16 AM
How old are you?

lol +1

On a more serious note:

I am a complete n00b but i found these articles to really lay things out in an easy to follow manner with the language relatively easy to understand:

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/meth.louisfreeh.html

(copypasta spamdump snipped - upload and link if desired, -jp)

i also liked this one although more technical:

http://www.lycaeum.org/rhodium/chemistry/p2p-meth.html

************************************************** ****

As a baby bee id like to request any articles written in laymen terms with detailed instructions (specifically where its derived directly from p2p - dont ask why)... my knowledge is new and growing with no formal training.

Please dont flame me ive been searching all the forums i come across and have been researching for some months now.

purewhitepanda
03-01-2010, 06:52 AM
Some LiNkS-

http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/#speed

http://www.amphetamines.com/

http://amphetamines.com/refs/

http://www.lycaeum.org/leda/docs/147.shtml?ID=147

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/CU36.html

Thx t00 eleusis

JFish15
03-01-2010, 07:04 AM
Hmmm... nice smorgasboard of stuff there, but I'd encourage everyone not to get involved in this- involves too many combustible solvents and will fuck your life up. Just stick with the downers and/or get a prescription to Adderall :thumbsup:

purewhitepanda
03-01-2010, 07:19 AM
Hmmm... nice smorgasboard of stuff there, but I'd encourage everyone not to get involved in this- involves too many combustible solvents and will fuck your life up. Just stick with the downers and/or get a prescription to Adderall :thumbsup:

Downers blow monkey ballz.....Kids get some migraine meds instead and PM me for my P.O. Box and i will gladly send you a coupon for McDonalds to get a buy one get one free Big Mac that expires on Des/31/2001 for your prescriptions....

JFish15
03-01-2010, 07:21 AM
Downers blow monkey ballz.....Kids get some migraine meds instead and PM me for my P.O. Box and i will gladly send you a coupon for McDonalds to get a buy one get one free Big Mac that expires on Des/31/2001 for your prescriptions....

Yeah... I would trade my whole months worth of prescriptions of uppers for a months worth of some 'good' downers... "the grass is always greener on the other side." - Especially if you're on amphetamines.

I sure wouldn't be posting here this late at night, that's for sure;)

purewhitepanda
03-01-2010, 07:24 AM
Yeah... I would trade my whole months worth of prescriptions of uppers for a months worth of some 'good' downers... "the grass is always greener on the other side." - Especially if you're on amphetamines.

I sure wouldn't be posting here this late at night, that's for sure;)

True true....I've been there before.....A good dose of vitamin K should do the trick;)

JoePedo
03-01-2010, 07:29 AM
{wall of copypasta}

o.O

Y'know, I'm currently trying to manage edit/undeletion complaints from the LAST person who dumped copypasta in this thread - any way I can get you to snip that and, I dunno, add links instead??

I'll leave it up long enough to copy-and-paste back into notepad, but... this forum is not a textfile archive, seriously. If you could see deleted messages like I could see deleted messages... oy.

JFish15
03-01-2010, 07:31 AM
True true....I've been there before.....A good dose of vitamin K should do the trick;)

I lost my Pharm Tech. license and job that I could get the Vitamin 'K' from, but I'm workin' on some vitamin 'G' and I can't fuckin' wait. I got these new generic adderall pills though that are purple though and I can't tell if I like them better or not, they're flatter and smaller unlike the oblong football shaped orange pills I had and are better for sublingual administration, but anyway, they seem a little less potent overall. I don't know, I'm just going to try to bed though, I've ate up all the damn celery and ranch dip right now and just need to quit so I can get to my 11' o clock class tommorow.

purewhitepanda
03-01-2010, 07:32 AM
^^^Sure thing Boss....

Hydroponichronic
03-01-2010, 07:58 AM
Some LiNkS-

http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/#speed

http://www.amphetamines.com/

http://amphetamines.com/refs/

http://www.lycaeum.org/leda/docs/147.shtml?ID=147

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/CU36.html

Thx t00 eleusis
Dude, whats up? You seem to be some sort of person (not a kid, I don't think), wants to look like a chemist, but isn't. I'd guess cop, but no one likes when people call narc.

:hrmph:

purewhitepanda
03-01-2010, 08:04 AM
Dude, whats up? You seem to be some sort of person (not a kid, I don't think), wants to look like a chemist, but isn't. I'd guess cop, but no one likes when people call narc.

:hrmph:

You still butt hurt there buddy.....How's it feel to pwn'ed yourself in a troll thread?YOU KNOW WAT AM TALKING ABOUT....LMFAO....No narc here, but i guess by you posting this about me is supposed to make your ego/rep go back up to squat shit again.

No chemist here....No need to make drugs if there already around, but i do dream like the rest of us.....

Hydroponichronic
03-01-2010, 08:42 AM
You still butt hurt there buddy.....How's it feel to pwn'ed yourself in a troll thread?YOU KNOW WAT AM TALKING ABOUT....LMFAO....No narc here, but i guess by you posting this about me is supposed to make your ego/rep go back up to squat shit again.

No chemist here....No need to make drugs if there already around, but i do dream like the rest of us.....

uhhhh...:rolleyes:

*sighs*

purewhitepanda
03-01-2010, 09:11 AM
uhhhh...:rolleyes:

*sighs*

Wat you don't have nothing to say now. ^^^Fucking nigger guy right here everyone^^^

hotbod
03-01-2010, 03:14 PM
Hmmm... nice smorgasboard of stuff there, but I'd encourage everyone not to get involved in this- involves too many combustible solvents and will fuck your life up. Just stick with the downers and/or get a prescription to Adderall :thumbsup:

theres more money in crystal

stateofhack
03-01-2010, 04:52 PM
Keep this thread clean, i ain't want to have to clean it again :mad:

JoePedo
03-02-2010, 03:44 AM
As a baby bee id like to request any articles written in laymen terms with detailed instructions

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=35442

(specifically where its derived directly from p2p - dont ask why)...

See section D on that thar above-mentioned link?

http://www.google.en/search?hl=en&q=site%3Aen.wikipedia.org+ketone

Oh, sorry... here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone#Reactions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imine#Imine_reactions

...functional groups, kid. The whole world is made of them, and looking them up can teach you everything on how to shape your universe. Study the functional group!!

/geriatricchemist. ;)

Now... from what functional group you want to get to p2p, however, is another question. I'll bet that if you study a lot of them, though, you'll come across "hey, that property of functional group X would convert _____ into _____!"

...and that, my good man, is what it's all about. The rest of the top-linked thread will teach you muchly about cleanup, which is actually far, far more important than synthesis...

Irukanji
03-02-2010, 04:09 AM
1. Intercept meth shipment from pharma company
2. Hide in woods
3. get usted
4. serve time
5. ????
6. Meth
7. Profit.

missingno
03-02-2010, 08:16 PM
swim has a question involving possible mistakes within the red, white and blue reaction...swim's seems to keep getting bunk-ass shards and has questions involving reasons on why swim keeps getting...l-shards? rather than the d-shards that are desired...

in a 2e, 2.5 i2, 1rp ratio swim remembered adding about 100ml of water and slowly refluxed the reaction for 4 hours at 220.F. in the post-reaction, swim used lye to make ph13, add 75ml of dry xylene, did 3 water washes, did a water wash with 6 drops of hcl and evap distilled h20

swim tried some, a .1 amount vaperized real quick and fell asleep some hours later :mad:

some suggestions would help

apprentice
03-02-2010, 09:48 PM
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=35442



See section D on that thar above-mentioned link?




believe it or not i read the n00bz thread.

I appreciate the direction towards the study of functional groups.

I guess i was hoping for a paper floating around like bright star's but for meth from p2p... :(

Fractals
03-03-2010, 02:41 AM
believe it or not i read the n00bz thread.

I appreciate the direction towards the study of functional groups.

I guess i was hoping for a paper floating around like bright star's but for meth from p2p... :(

Almost any paper on MDP2P->MDMA will work for P2P->MA just by substituting the MDP2P with P2P.

JoePedo
03-03-2010, 06:52 AM
believe it or not i read the n00bz thread.

I appreciate the direction towards the study of functional groups.

:D Sweet... you're on your way!

I guess i was hoping for a paper floating around like bright star's but for meth from p2p... :(

Heh. Well, if you've already got your p2p, you've got it - "throw in methylamine and reduce," lol.

If not, well... it's... still back to the functional groups. Try to have a little faith that there's a reason we're making you figure this out the right way - it's the difference between being able to effortlessly write custom syntheses at leisure, and being unable to follow an internet recipie because 1. you can't tell at a glance whether it's bunk or not, and 2. if it's not, you still can't tell what went wrong. :)

You get a lot more g33k ch1x with the "effortless 20-step total synthesis of anything" bit, lol.

Soooo... getting to p2p. Well... it's a ketone. Ketones are, well... an oxidation state.

Your options for getting to that oxidation state, then, are simple. You can either get there from a more-oxidized state, or a less oxidized one.

Ergo(t), what functional groups are more oxidized than a ketone? Can you name them? What (all) functional groups are less oxidized than a ketone? Can you name them?

:D Choose your destiny, young padawan. I promise you this is going somewhere...

JoePedo
03-03-2010, 06:57 AM
Almost any paper on MDP2P->MDMA will work for P2P->MA just by substituting the MDP2P with P2P.

(drat. I was gonna let that secret out AFTER making her/him derive 20 novel syntheses on her/his own, lol...)

Ah well. Thanks. :) 'n yes, 70-90% of the time, only the functional groups need be considered - a writeup for acetamide is a writeup for dodecamide sulfate is a writeup for LSD synthesis is a writeup for asprin precursors. Almost any analog in a storm - functional groups are what to look at here.

(I was just going to drive that home a bit until the new recruit was whipped into "molecular god" shape, lol)

purewhitepanda
03-05-2010, 08:29 AM
believe it or not i read the n00bz thread.

I appreciate the direction towards the study of functional groups.

I guess i was hoping for a paper floating around like bright star's but for meth from p2p... :(

So something like this, but only for meth.....

This text describes the complete process of making MDMA starting from the essential oil extracted from Ocotea Cymabrum (Brazilian Sassafras).

{snip - jp}

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/eleusis/zwit.mdma.html

Fractals
03-05-2010, 09:35 AM
I'd delete that wall of text and replace it with a link before SoH sees it. ;)

purewhitepanda
03-05-2010, 09:56 AM
I'd delete that wall of text and replace it with a link before SoH sees it. ;)

Ya i should but am too fucked up too or really care cuz honestly i didn't do shit wrong, but asked the OP if my question was related to what he's asking for. SoH can do what he feels is right....He's a good mod, but i really don't feel like doing all that work cuz am lazy as hell right now and am sure he can delete it for me adding the link.............MAYBE;)

stateofhack
03-07-2010, 07:21 PM
Common a little effort :) Its nice of you to post these because they are good reads just ref them tho!

Hydroponichronic
03-08-2010, 03:33 AM
wall of page-stretching-infraction faggotry
tl;dr

missingno
09-07-2010, 12:52 AM
Soooo... getting to p2p. Well... it's a ketone. Ketones are, well... an oxidation state.

Your options for getting to that oxidation state, then, are simple. You can either get there from a more-oxidized state, or a less oxidized one.



starting from allylbenzene to Phenyl-2-Bromopropane based on a potential, high yeilding synthesis from rhodium...it would make swim's dreams come true to find an answer to the desired ketone (phenyl-2-propanone) after google has failed..

BungHole
12-19-2013, 02:32 AM
Here's a real dirty, tedious, but not too extravagant scheme I devised:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2uj0dnb.png

Gun Lover
12-19-2013, 02:43 PM
Here's a real dirty, tedious, but not too extravagant scheme I devised:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2uj0dnb.png

Meinwald? Interesting choice

How would you achieve selectivity of the secondary bromide over the primary? Thermodynamic control? How would you separate the mixture of products to give the monohalide you need?

Trying to remove the acetyl in the presence of the oxirane seems daunting, but I wouldn't know.

BungHole
12-19-2013, 04:05 PM
Meinwald? Interesting choice


Yep.


How would you achieve selectivity of the secondary bromide over the primary? Thermodynamic control? How would you separate the mixture of products to give the monohalide you need?

Yep, thermodynamic control. Under acidic conditions, tautomerization follows Zaitsev's rule. Acid catalyzed halogenation of ketones also decreases in rate with increasing substitution due to destabilization of carbocation transition state, as opposed to increasing rate under basic conditions due to carbanion T.S. stabilization. For references, see alpha-bromination of propiophenone.



Trying to remove the acetyl in the presence of the oxirane seems daunting, but I wouldn't know.
That's where I'm stuck.:(

The idea started here:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/25dmp2p.html

That ester isn't really OTC, but halo-MEK is (albeit an effective tear gas). The oxirane actually stabilizes a carbanion intermediate via induction and facilitates decarboxylation. With my proposed modification we don't yield a carboxyl ester though, we yield a ketone. Something interesting though; in the haloform reaction the carbanion is stabilized by induction and be eliminated from a geminal-diol-like intermediate. Perhaps if the oxirane carbanion can act as an effective leaving group in the decarboxylation, it can do so in this modification as well.

EDIT: Mechanism.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2mf0j2h.png

EDIT:
GIF showing largest LUMO on the carbonyl carbon we want.
http://i41.tinypic.com/aeutd3.gif

Basically just get your benzaldehyde (it's so much easier to make than people think, even from toluene), make your halo-ketone, reflux with hydroxide. Pretty damn OTC and easy, but there are many possible side reactions along the way.

EDIT2: A deprotonation of the alpha-methyl group and subsequent aldol coupling is likely, but in aqueous conditions the de-acetylation is kinetically favorable.

aYoungKing
07-25-2014, 06:31 AM
what a great thread

i really should introduce swiYK(someone who isnt YoungKing)

swiyk has been looking for a place to hang out...and synthetikal is gone along with the hive and wetdreams

the jackasses at sciencemadness arent going to register me to fuck them

this place will now home for swiyk

swiyk is a very big dreamer

a newbie...who isnt very much of a new bee...if you can connect the dots

and swiyk is looking forward to sharing his dreams and educating others on the topic



swiyk would like to share a recent sudo extraction dream

swiyk was doing an experiment will red hots, keep in mind...these are very clean and not your typical loaded down reds

swiyk was available to get pristine sudo from a basing and extracting with lighter fluid as the np, worked great he says

eventually swiyk ran out of lighter fluid but did have some odorless charcoal lighter fluid

swiyk instantly noticed a waxy substance floating around when he added the np, also noted no sudo freebase dissolved into the np even upon heating

swiyk used the last of his lighter fluid to pull fb sudo and added it to the odorless charcoal lighter for evap

the sudo had that same waxy substance noted in the beginning and smelled very funky, and oil like odor, and was not removed with a recrystallization

swiyk recomends you do not use odorless charcoal lighter for an a/b extraction or not even at all because of this

cheers everyone

BungHole
07-26-2014, 12:00 AM
I don't blame scimad for not letting you in when you talk about yourself in the third person like that.:facepalm:

aYoungKing
07-26-2014, 01:50 AM
I don't blame scimad for not letting you in when you talk about yourself in the third person like that.:facepalm:

me? nooo nooo noo

you see im just the messenger ; D:thumbsup:

aYoungKing
07-26-2014, 11:43 AM
Per my understanding, in the traditional I/P/ephedrine synthesis, the P converts the I into HI, then the HI reduces the ephedrine to idoephedrine (and then ehpedrine, I presume... though all anyone has told me is that the idoephedrine is "reduced".).

Now, P is dangerous (runaway reactions, gaseous phosphorous products...) and difficult to get (it's watched, and scraping matchbooks sucks).

So, I looked into it, and it seems that HI can be produced by bubbling H2S through I2(aq). And H2S, while not friendly, is easily procured:
1) Buying it in bulk. Like in gas cylinders. I don't think this is watched, though I haven't truely looked into it.
2) Reacting a metal sulfide with a strong acid.

Number 2 looks good for the small-scale syntheses that ephedrine is well-suited for (ephedrine, being watched, can't be procured in large amounts easily).
In particular, it is easy to obtain Sb2S3 from match heads - approximately 7g/1000 paper matches, IIRC. Just cut, soak in water, strain through a can with small holes in the bottom, decant the liquid a few times... the Sb2S3 should be left as a fine powder in the bottom of your flask.

This look at all reasonable to you guys?

Do any good absorbers of H2S exist, to prevent gas being farted into the lab during production?

stay away from h2s, seriously, youll kill yourself and others, thats only a procedure to use if you have actual lab glass and a fume hood plus experience

but as for the reaction mechanism of HI and ephedrine


HI splits into 1 H and 1 I when heated, usually these singe atoms pair to make H2 gas, and I2 iodine

when you add ephedrine in, the I atom makes iodoephedrine, and it takes a hydrogen atom to make meth

ephedrine hcl + HI = iodoephedrine hcl

iodoephedrine + HI = meth hcl

the ratio of HI to E is 2:1

most bees use a 3.3:1 ratio for quicker times and for complete conversion

BungHole
07-26-2014, 12:10 PM
http://i57.tinypic.com/331ev4o.png

aYoungKing
07-26-2014, 02:31 PM
http://i57.tinypic.com/331ev4o.png

great picture, one way of how it could work

but im inclined to think that the splitting of I and H is doing most of the work

ever had a cook where the bee didnt bring it to atleast 120 C for a little while?

lots of intermediates in the dope, i think 120 is the magic number that makes HI split, around there at least

do you know what the h2o ephedrine is called? waterephedrine for now lol

all this being said the HI method is rather a dirty method to make meth compared to other methods, if you dont do the reaction right and dont clean it post reaction you'll get some real crack head kindof dope

learn something new everyday, where did you get that pic from anyways?

BungHole
07-26-2014, 05:05 PM
I drew it using chem draw. Most likely that is how it works, experimental studies have verified benzylic alcohols are reduced by hydrogen iodide through homolytic cleavage of the alkyl iodide and subsequent abstraction of a hydrogen radical from the solvent. The benzylic radical intermediate has been trapped and characterized.

Why would dissociation of iodine from hydrogen occur first? How would that facilitate the reaction? Hydrogen radicals would react with solvent too fast to abstract hydroxyl radicals from the ephedrine. Diatomic hydrogen does nothing. Homolytic cleavage of benzyl iodides requires heat as well.

The protonated structure is called a hydronium intermediate, it's typical of acid catalyzed neucleophilic substitutions.

aYoungKing
07-26-2014, 08:22 PM
This is all very interesting and sheds new light upon this subject, starting to see things in new ways

But if this were the only way the reaction works...why does it require so much heat? You cant just add E to an HI solution stir and get meth, I believe the splitting of HI helps more free I atoms form more iodoephedrine from that waterephedrine intermediate

The I atom doesnt hold onto the H atom very well so there is an amount of free hydrogen

How would H atoms not do anything? Iodoephedrine is already an unstable compound and will transform into those aziridines with time or heat with out the presence of a reaction solution around it

One would think this unstable compound when hit with an H atom would react to form meth? Right

aYoungKing
07-26-2014, 08:41 PM
another good read from the godfather of clandestine chemistry sites

old hive thread

http://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/crystal/000479838.html


also to be added HI will degrade in presence of light, swiyk would recommend bees experiment with light in their reactions, but not o2, if one can purge the vessel of o2 youll use less RP, and if youre a bee you know scrapping matchbooks sucks ass

and maybe even, a meth microwave idea, ohh no not another microwave idea!! lol, it might be worth a shot, if you can make meth without high temps it would be worth it with quality of end product and yield

BungHole
07-26-2014, 09:21 PM
This is all very interesting and sheds new light upon this subject, starting to see things in new ways

But if this were the only way the reaction works...why does it require so much heat? You cant just add E to an HI solution stir and get meth, I believe the splitting of HI helps more free I atoms form more iodoephedrine from that waterephedrine intermediate

The I atom doesnt hold onto the H atom very well so there is an amount of free hydrogen

How would H atoms not do anything? Iodoephedrine is already an unstable compound and will transform into those aziridines with time or heat with out the presence of a reaction solution around it

One would think this unstable compound when hit with an H atom would react to form meth? Right

Then why do we need to prepare HI in situ using phosphorus if it's about the free iodine atoms? Why not just add iodine by itself? The second and fourth step require considerable heat themselves. HI is a very strong acid, it doesn't need heat to deprotonate and form the iodide anion. But the homolytic cleavage of HI is much slower than the heterolytic if the hydrogen radicals aren't consumed rapidly to drive the reaction. Hydrogen ions will move through the solution quickly, the radicals wont. If the hydrogen radicals do contact another hydrogen atom and form diatomic hydrogen, the diatomic hydrogen is very stable and unreactive without a catalyst. Look up catalytic hydrogenation. Also, not, iodoephedrine will not neccessarily be reduced when hit by a "hydrogen atom." It takes a particular hydrogen atom and a large concentration of them. We don't have large concentrations of them in the right form so it wont occur rapidly enough to be observed. It's like watching a glacier move.

If you think hydrogen radicals will just pop of and hit the iodoephedrine and not the solvent itself, consider this analogy: There's a man with a gun surrounded by ten hostages. The police try to shoot the man to free the hostages. Who gets hit by a bullet, the man with the gun or one of the hostages? Molecules are the same. The pathway I showed works because it happens very quickly under these conditions.

The photocatalytic reaction wont work well either. It's great for the first step, but the second step still needs heed. If you could form an aqueous solution of iodoephedrine it would reduce on contact with light. A reducing agent like vitamin c would help it along. But the second step needs heat and once it happens the fourth step probably happens quickly afterward under those condition, so no point stopping the reaction to isolate iodoephedrine.

aYoungKing
07-26-2014, 09:46 PM
Then why do we need to prepare HI in situ using phosphorus if it's about the free iodine atoms? Why not just add iodine by itself? The second and fourth step require considerable heat themselves. HI is a very strong acid, it doesn't need heat to deprotonate and form the iodide anion. But the homolytic cleavage of HI is much slower than the heterolytic if the hydrogen radicals aren't consumed rapidly to drive the reaction. Hydrogen ions will move through the solution quickly, the radicals wont. If the hydrogen radicals do contact another hydrogen atom and form diatomic hydrogen, the diatomic hydrogen is very stable and unreactive without a catalyst. Look up catalytic hydrogenation. Also, not, iodoephedrine will not neccessarily be reduced when hit by a "hydrogen atom." It takes a particular hydrogen atom and a large concentration of them. We don't have large concentrations of them in the right form so it wont occur rapidly enough to be observed. It's like watching a glacier move.

If you think hydrogen radicals will just pop of and hit the iodoephedrine and not the solvent itself, consider this analogy: There's a man with a gun surrounded by ten hostages. The police try to shoot the man to free the hostages. Who gets hit by a bullet, the man with the gun or one of the hostages? Molecules are the same. The pathway I showed works because it happens very quickly under these conditions.

The photocatalytic reaction wont work well either. It's great for the first step, but the second step still needs heed. If you could form an aqueous solution of iodoephedrine it would reduce on contact with light. A reducing agent like vitamin c would help it along. But the second step needs heat and once it happens the fourth step probably happens quickly afterward under those condition, so no point stopping the reaction to isolate iodoephedrine.

i should have clearly mentioned when i say H atom, i mean H1, not an h2 molecule

swiyk was never one to make HI in situ either

and iodine crystals are I2, not free iodine atoms

also my suggestion on light was more of have a typical reaction but with powerful lights pointed at the vessel

this is a great debate here, i didnt expect to run into another bee who knew chemistry but rather tweakers

BungHole
07-26-2014, 10:23 PM
i should have clearly mentioned when i say H atom, i mean H1, not an h2 molecule

swiyk was never one to make HI in situ either

and iodine crystals are I2, not free iodine atoms

also my suggestion on light was more of have a typical reaction but with powerful lights pointed at the vessel

this is a great debate here, i didnt expect to run into another bee who knew chemistry but rather tweakers

If you are adding iodine to phosphorus in the presence of water you are making HI in situ. If you do this in the absence of water, you are making phosphorus triiodide, which is also an iodonating agent and as well as a Lewis acid, though this tends to hurt yields compared to adding some solvent (toluene, water, both of which will give up a hydrogen atom via homolytic cleavage). Iodine free radicals aren't really beneficial to the reaction, there a by product which causes problem in high concentrations (hence molar excess of phosphorus is usually used).

For the presence of free hydrogen radicals, see the hostage analogy. Hydrogen radicals don't play a major role, there's very few of them and they hit other molecules before the iodoephedrine.

The light might speed up the reaction and produce less by products, but it wont help much unless the conditions were changed. If you were to say dissolve the freebase pseudo in methylene chloride and add phosphorus and iodine and reflux gently to form the iodoephedrine under milder conditions, then add alcohol or glacial acetic acid and hit it with light that would probably help alot.

aYoungKing
07-26-2014, 11:02 PM
If you are adding iodine to phosphorus in the presence of water you are making HI in situ. If you do this in the absence of water, you are making phosphorus triiodide, which is also an iodonating agent and as well as a Lewis acid, though this tends to hurt yields compared to adding some solvent (toluene, water, both of which will give up a hydrogen atom via homolytic cleavage). Iodine free radicals aren't really beneficial to the reaction, there a by product which causes problem in high concentrations (hence molar excess of phosphorus is usually used).

For the presence of free hydrogen radicals, see the hostage analogy. Hydrogen radicals don't play a major role, there's very few of them and they hit other molecules before the iodoephedrine.

The light might speed up the reaction and produce less by products, but it wont help much unless the conditions were changed. If you were to say dissolve the freebase pseudo in methylene chloride and add phosphorus and iodine and reflux gently to form the iodoephedrine under milder conditions, then add alcohol or glacial acetic acid and hit it with light that would probably help alot.

Neat

Also swiyk doesnt make HI with rp due to difficulty getting rp and how valuable it is, swiyk makes HI with sodium sulfite and iodine which is later distilled

I could see how free H atoms would be a problem and could be a source for all the byproducts in this reaction

But dont free I atoms make the waterephedrine and ephedrine into iodoephedrine needed in the beginning of the reaction, I would agree that after most of the iodoephedrine is made there isnt a need for free I atoms and could also be a source for byproducts

Also, what is the reason why bees cant make meth from hcl? Does the chlorine hold onto the H too strongly for this reaction to work at reasonable temps

Gun Lover
07-27-2014, 05:12 PM
I drew it using chem draw. Most likely that is how it works, experimental studies have verified benzylic alcohols are reduced by hydrogen iodide through homolytic cleavage of the alkyl iodide and subsequent abstraction of a hydrogen radical from the solvent. The benzylic radical intermediate has been trapped and characterized.

Why would dissociation of iodine from hydrogen occur first? How would that facilitate the reaction? Hydrogen radicals would react with solvent too fast to abstract hydroxyl radicals from the ephedrine. Diatomic hydrogen does nothing. Homolytic cleavage of benzyl iodides requires heat as well.

The protonated structure is called a hydronium intermediate, it's typical of acid catalyzed neucleophilic substitutions.
Nice. I remember trying to think out the mechanism a while back and just couldn't make it work.

I'm still curious about the mechanism of the solvated electron reduction of benzyl alcohols. Do you think the hydroxyl dissociates to the radical in the first step? I struggle to see how it leaves otherwise. Everything else proceeds the same after the benzyl radical is formed.

BungHole
07-27-2014, 06:16 PM
But dont free I atoms make the waterephedrine and ephedrine into iodoephedrine needed in the beginning of the reaction, I would agree that after most of the iodoephedrine is made there isnt a need for free I atoms and could also be a source for byproducts


I already discussed it and drew it in the picture. The the mechanism relies on iodide anions, not iodine radicals. Hydroiodic acid is a very strong acid and at room temperature it is almost completely ionized to iodide ions and hydronium ions. Look up free radicals and ions, there's clear a difference here.
Nice. I remember trying to think out the mechanism a while back and just couldn't make it work.

I'm still curious about the mechanism of the solvated electron reduction of benzyl alcohols. Do you think the hydroxyl dissociates to the radical in the first step? I struggle to see how it leaves otherwise. Everything else proceeds the same after the benzyl radical is formed.

It's like a traditional Birch reduction, but in a a solution where we have ammonia radical anions present, the energy becomes so high that hydroxide actually becomes a relatively weak base and good leaving group in terms of thermodynamics.

I propose this mechanism:
http://i61.tinypic.com/jtvtww.png

I have little empirical evidence for it but here it goes: I expect the solvated electron presides in the sigma antibonding orbital of the ammonia, as this would transition it from an orbital with only 2s character to an orbital with both 1s and 2s character. This radical anion attacks the pi-antibonding orbital, and causes breaking of a pi bond and formation of a carbanionic radical. The carbanion goes to sp3 to avoid antiaromaticity. A proton is abstracted from the solvent, the radical is reduced by another ammonia radical anion. A very high energy collision occurs where an amide anion deprotonates the carbanion and initiates an E2-like elimination of hydroxide (this one is sketchy, but somehow hydroxide leaves and I think the radical will be reduced more rapidly than the hydroxide leaves so it's probably heterolytic, and this one seems to overcome the energy barrier reasonably based on inuition). The carbanionic center on the last step remains sp3 till an electron goes up into an antibonding orbital near that position and another electron does the same at the benzylic carbon. The sp3 bonding electron at the carbanion center and the pi bonding lectron on the exocyclic double bond pair to form a pi bond, regaining aromaticity. The two antibonding electrons drop down to an sp3 state at the benzylic carbon till another ammonia comes in and protonates it.

It's a stretch, but hey. . .

Gun Lover
07-27-2014, 06:57 PM
You present a strong case

My only hangup is based on my recollection of a few papers that characterized cyclohexadiene impurities seen when improper stoichiometry is used.

http://zimmer.fresnostate.edu/~eperson/files/Person%20-%20CMP.pdf

The above (and another I can't find) claim that the reaction can cleanly reduce the hydroxyl without any dearomatized products. Any mechanism with dearmotized intermediates makes me skeptical of the selectivity that is apparently seen with proper reagent use.

aYoungKing
07-28-2014, 02:25 AM
i see i see

im just a little curious, is this one of your personal theories? must be because i doubt there would be very much papers on HI meth production

so what have i learned so far

free radial hydrogen is not the major player in this game, but i think we can agree that free H atoms reacting with the OH on the E does make meth, right? note that i understand that it is alot more likely for free H atoms react with other things before hitting the ephedrine

Free I atoms are also not the major player in the game for making iodoephedrine, but im still inclined to think that a free I atom reacted with E does make iodoephedrine right?

regardless, YoungKing has learned a bit so far, and is now thinking differently about HI reduction of ephedrine

BungHole
07-28-2014, 09:59 PM
i see i see

im just a little curious, is this one of your personal theories? must be because i doubt there would be very much papers on HI meth production
Ephedrine isn't the only compound in the class of benzyl alcohols. If it works on one molecule, it probably work on another.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3302097/

I was too lazy to post references before.


free radial hydrogen is not the major player in this game, but i think we can agree that free H atoms reacting with the OH on the E does make meth, right? note that i understand that it is alot more likely for free H atoms react with other things before hitting the ephedrine


Yes, by forming intermediate five.



Free I atoms are also not the major player in the game for making iodoephedrine, but im still inclined to think that a free I atom reacted with E does make iodoephedrine right?



Yes, through the SN1 mechanism in step three.

aYoungKing
07-29-2014, 04:07 AM
Ephedrine isn't the only compound in the class of benzyl alcohols. If it works on one molecule, it probably work on another.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3302097/

I was too lazy to post references before.

Yes, by forming intermediate five.



Yes, through the SN1 mechanism in step three.

very nice, this has been a great read, keep up the schooling of the lesser bees

some has been learned from this thread