Dead soldier

[docus]

In this thread: a US Army signal corps photo. American soldiers in Sicily (1943) looking at the body of a shot down German pilot.

http://www.history.army.mil/photos/wwii/erlyyrs/SC180497.jpg

To quote Tolkien:

"He wondered what the mans name was and where he came from. And if he was really evil at heart, or what lies or threats had lead him on the long march from his home, and if he would not really have rather stayed there, in peace."

[reject]

War truly is futile.

[Tachosomoza]

Another victim of the capitalist induced Nazi regime. Read my sig.

If I had been a German or citizen of the occupied countries during that time period, I would have been active resistance, for sure. Bombings, assassinations, liberations. We would have coordinated with the Jewish resistance in the ghettos and camps with the help of sympathetic Wehrmacht and other military officials and organized a comprehensive resistance force that merged all groups in all occupied countries into one organized front.

[reject]

Fuck that, I'd be joining the SS.

[a334jv2df]

Ha soldier don't worry bout that shit anymore. My boy is a Marine deployed in Afg as we speak. Kid handles those motherfuckers everyday with NO REMORSE (the way it should be). His hummer ran over an IED (he fine) so he was using the computer and I was talking to him on facebook. Said he killed 4 men already. They keep score just like a game lmfao. IMO their is no innocent muslim just like there wasn't any innocent nazis. death to the entire religion and all its people

[Tachosomoza]

Fuck that, I'd be joining the SS.

Would you be an ally? It would be DAMN good to have lines into the SS. It would make liberating concentration camps so much easier.

[reject]

No, I'd be loyal to my leader and everything he says. The SS were badass. It'd be an honour to be a member of such an elite squad, I'd do no backstacking.

[Dr. Awkward]

I would start a mess hall syndicate.
http://rlv.zcache.com/m_m_enterprises_logo_shirt-d235746198306896573q66r_210.jpg

[Tachosomoza]

No, I'd be loyal to my leader and everything he says. The SS were badass. It'd be an honour to be a member of such an elite squad, I'd do no backstacking.

Badass, MY ass. They were fucking coldblooded, cowardly murderers. They used babies for target practice. I can't imagine having the fact that I was responsible for the deaths of innocent kids who did absolutely nothing wrong on my hands after the war. I'd commit suicide.

[reject]

Maybe it's my blood.

[Rolf]

If I had been a German or citizen of the occupied countries during that time period, I would have been active resistance, for sure.

Rolf would have been in the Wehrmacht, preferably Heer or Luftwaffe, for true men go to war and fight while pseudo-intellectual morons too political for their own good bitch and whine about the doings of politicians.

No, I'd be loyal to my leader and everything he says. The SS were badass. It'd be an honour to be a member of such an elite squad, I'd do no backstacking.

The SS weren't elite, just fanatical douchebags proficient in meaningless massacres, explains Rolf, the elite infantry units of the Wehrmacht were the fallschirmjaeger units of the Luftwaffe and the Brandenburger Regiment of the OKH. Otto Skorzeny, the most badass German soldier of WWII, was a member of the SS though, adds Rolf.

I'd commit suicide.

Further evidence far-left idiots are cowards, adds Rolf, slayer of far-left idiotic cowards.

[Shrike]

YouTube - Mitchell & Webb Nazis

[Hydroponichronic]

War truly is futile.

Nuh uh. If we hadn't had WWII, the Nazi's would have killed all the Jews and would own Europe.

[Tachosomoza]

Nuh uh. If we hadn't had WWII, the Nazi's would have killed all the Jews and would own Europe.

What about the Jews in South and North America, Africa, the Middle East, Australia, and South Asia?

[Dr. Awkward]

What about the Jews in South and North America, Africa, the Middle East, Australia, and South Asia?

Without WWII what makes you think the Nazis would've stopped with Europe. I'm pretty sure they had a campaign in North Africa already, and they were trying to strike a deal with Mexico to give them Texas back if they invaded the US for the nazis.

[Bin "Fuck Towers" Laden]

Ha soldier don't worry bout that shit anymore. My boy is a Marine deployed in Afg as we speak. Kid handles those motherfuckers everyday with NO REMORSE (the way it should be). His hummer ran over an IED (he fine) so he was using the computer and I was talking to him on facebook. Said he killed 4 men already. They keep score just like a game lmfao. IMO their is no innocent muslim just like there wasn't any innocent nazis. death to the entire religion and all its people

There's no need for us to spray up the scene

I use less men, more powerful shit for my team

Like my man Muhammad from Afghanistan

Grew up in Iran, the nigga runs a neighborhood newsstand

A wild Middle Eastern, bomb specialist

Intiated, at eleven to be a terrorist

He set bombs in bottles of champagne

And when niggaz popped the cork, niggaz lost half they brains

Like this ex-worker, tried to smuggle a half a key

in his left leg, even underwent surgery

They say his pirate limp gave him away

As the feds rushed him, comin through U.S. Customs

[Tachosomoza]

Without WWII what makes you think the Nazis would've stopped with Europe. I'm pretty sure they had a campaign in North Africa already, and they were trying to strike a deal with Mexico to give them Texas back if they invaded the US for the nazis.

Mexico posed no threat to the US, Doc. The fascists would not have even killed every Jew in Europe. Hell, they had Jews in the SS.

[IIIII]

Sometimes war and the guilt of killing takes the hate away.

This is not my tale. I took it from the site referenced.

About Our Veterans

Obviously, anyone is free to reply to this in any way they want, but I'd rather make it a thread about veterans than a thread about my father. Tell about the veterans you know or about your own experiences.

About my Dad -

He was born in Southwestern Louisiana and left school after the sixth grade to help support the family, doing any odd job he could. It was the Depression and everybody did anything to get some money.

He joined the army shortly after Pearl Harbor was attacked. He tried out for the paratroopers but was injured in training and wound up as a dogface in the third infantry division.

During his service he made three amphibious landings. North Africa, Italy (I don't know if it was Salerno or Anzio) and Southern France. He was wounded three or four times. In the winter of 1944/45 his feet froze so badly the doctors wanted to amputate them. He begged them not to, and they left his feet. He would have problems with them for the rest of his life. For him the war was over. He never made it to Germany.

When I was a boy I would ask about the war and he would tell me funny stories about getting drunk, stealing a jeep and getting busted back to private again. Or something about eating great food in France, even with a war on. They were always funny and made the war sound great. He never rose higher than corporal and couldn't have given a shit - he was like the hundreds of thousands of men who just wanted to get it over and go home. Willie and Joe, if you know what I mean...

He had PTSD and his memories and his wounds until he died. His feet were Godawful and the shrapnel in his back caused problems and he was in pain from 1943 until he died in 1976. He was a prescription drug addict and, until about 1967, a very heavy drinker.

But he did his best to come back and make a normal life. He came home, married my mother, raised three sons and was a union carpenter until he was forcibly retired at 48 years old. His body was shot. He died three years later.

When I was a senior in high school and in the year after I would stay out very late, getting home at two or three AM. Sometimes I would come home to find him sitting on the couch, drinking coffee.

"Hey son, how did it go tonight?", he'd ask.

"Oh I'm fine Dad, why are you up so late?"

"Fritz is visiting me again." That's all he would have to say, and I understood. He was probably stoned on pain killers, tranquilizers and mood elevators, but he couldn't sleep. It was then he began to talk about the war. The real war.

The stories he told were horrific and there's no reason to repeat them. Except one.

When he finally got out of combat he was sent to England to help guard German POWs. He'd been a machine gunner and he figured he'd killed a lot of Germans. He wasn't proud. He wasn't happy about it. He did not see himself as a hero.

He said when he was a guard he'd meet German soldiers, often younger or maybe the same age as him. As they became friends (the war was ending and these guys weren't going anywhere) they would show him pictures from home that they kept in their wallets - mother, father, family, maybe a girlfriend or wife or even a baby. He was horrified. The 'animals' he had been killing were people just like him. It changed him forever.

My father grew up in one of the most racist places in the US, but by the time I knew him he despised racism. One of the few times he ever spanked me was for teasing a black kid. I saw him throw an old friend out of our house for disparaging MLK when coverage of a march was on the news. That man never came to our house again.

My Dad wasn't a solicitous, pandering, latte sipping liberal who wanted to 'help black people'. He had a lesson seared into him in that POW camp: we're all the same beneath the skin or the nationality or the whatever. All people deserved respect and all people really were created equal in the sense of the dignity and respect they deserved. One day he was fixing the air conditioner of the black man across the street. That man was an insurance agent and pretty prosperous, with a wife and a lovely baby daughter. He said something to my Dad, and my Dad replied, "If you're gonna act like I'm Mistah Charlie I'm gonna take my Goddamn tools and go home. You're my neighbor and I can help. That's what people do." They became fast friends. My Dad's name was Charlie.

I know this is rambling but I want to say a few more things.

He hated war but wasn't a coward. He volunteered for Korea. When the recruiters said he was too old and too banged up and had done his time and asked why in the Hell he would volunteer, he replied, "Because I know how to stay alive and these kids you're gonna send over there don't." That story comes from my mother. My Dad never told it, but I can imagine him coming home pissed off and telling her.

He was against the Vietnam war. Not against the kids who had to go, but against the war. He thought it was stupid. He probably thought the Korean war was stupid, too, but he was still young enough to go. He sure as hell didn't want any of us boys to go.

Where I grew up, in Louisiana and later in Houston, Texas, just about everyone's father had been in WW2. We were all working class and it was the norm.

My Dad was just one person out of hundreds of thousands of Americans serving in that war. Although uneducated, he was far from stupid, and was able to take at least one good lesson from that horror and keep it with him and impart it to his children. As damaged as he was, he did his best to be a good citizen and a good father.

That's who our veterans are. He died 35 years ago and I still miss him.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1196919

[Ebola]

The SS weren't elite...

The SS were very much elite by the definition of the word ("Elite (Latin, eligere - "to elect") refers to an exceptional and/or privileged group that wields considerable power within its sphere of influence.")

They were not only trained much more and better than their Heer infantry "colleagues" but were also much better equipped, not to mention morale. Many SS-Divisions became mechanised as the war progressed and they were always the first to be issued newly developed equipment and weaponry.

Though Heer and SS commanders didn´t always get along very well, there are many examples of regular Heer units being VERY happy with SS reinforcements due to their elite status.

just fanatical douchebags proficient in meaningless massacres, explains Rolf...
Ever heard of 5. SS-Panzergrenadier Division "Wiking", 11. SS-Panzergrenadier Division "Nordland" or 24. SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment "Danmark"?

[Rolf]

They were not only trained much more and better than their Heer infantry "colleagues" but were also much better equipped, not to mention morale. Many SS-Divisions became mechanised as the war progressed and they were always the first to be issued newly developed equipment and weaponry.

The Waffen-SS were often given better equipment and supplies when compared to their counterparts in the Heer largely due to Hitler's love for "his" SS combined with distrust for the Heer, states Rolf. Some were also highly motivated and believed truly in Nazi Germany's cause, note the difference in morale, states Rolf. Waffen-SS recruits weren't chosen for their exceptional skill, their physical ability or their intelligence, they were instead (originally) chosen for their "aryan" purity and loyalty to the party, states Rolf.

Ever heard of 5. SS-Panzergrenadier Division "Wiking", 11. SS-Panzergrenadier Division "Nordland" or 24. SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment "Danmark"?

Of "Wiking" and "Nordland" yes, not of "Danmark" though, Rolf only knows of the 24th Division which was a Mountain division mainly made up of German Italians, states Rolf.

Rolf proclaims that the term "elite" is thrown around far too much. Rolf states that in their training and deployment, the majority of the Waffen-SS units were very similar to their Heer counterparts. The true "elite" units of Nazi Germany were the Brandenburgers (who imitated the British SAS and LRDG's actions in North Africa), the Fallschirmjaeger (famous for Operation Eiche) and the 502nd SS Jaeger Battalion (which did a few assassinations and some sabotage, it recruited 50% of it's recruits from the Heer), proclaims Rolf. All three of the previously mentioned groups were the WWII equivalent of modern Special Forces units, adds Rolf.

[Tachosomoza]

The SS did know how to wear a uniform, I'll give them that.

[nutsack]

Nuh uh. If we hadn't had WWII, the Nazi's would have killed all the Jews and would own Europe.

War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left.

[Rolf]

The SS did know how to wear a uniform, I'll give them that.

Some of the Finnish and Soviet ones aren't too bad either, states Rolf.

[shopping cart for brains]

Ha soldier don't worry bout that shit anymore. My boy is a Marine deployed in Afg as we speak. Kid handles those motherfuckers everyday with NO REMORSE (the way it should be). His hummer ran over an IED (he fine) so he was using the computer and I was talking to him on facebook. Said he killed 4 men already. They keep score just like a game lmfao. IMO their is no innocent muslim just like there wasn't any innocent nazis. death to the entire religion and all its people

holy fuck

[Tachosomoza]

Some of the Finnish and Soviet ones aren't too bad either, states Rolf.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44640000/jpg/_44640493_olduniforms_afp2_466b.jpg

http://allworldwars.com/image/011/Poster105.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ul8VgHojN7U/Sp6MIu7h5dI/AAAAAAAAYcQ/YuAB_LPTNFE/s400/23.jpg

I love Soviet WWII stuff.

[Ebola]

The Waffen-SS were often given better equipment and supplies when compared to their counterparts in the Heer largely due to Hitler's love for "his" SS combined with distrust for the Heer, states Rolf. Some were also highly motivated and believed truly in Nazi Germany's cause, note the difference in morale, states Rolf.
So we simply define "elite" different.


Of "Wiking" and "Nordland" yes, not of "Danmark" though, Rolf only knows of the 24th Division which was a Mountain division mainly made up of German Italians, states Rolf.
Both "Nordland" and "Wiking" were full divisions constantly engaged on the front, from start to end of WWII. They were never involved in any warcrimes, hence my question in regards to your: "just fanatical douchebags proficient in meaningless massacres, explains Rolf..."
"Danmark" was part of "Nordland" after the dispansion of "Frikorps Danmark".
Though there were indeed "fanatical douchebags" doing "meaningless massacres" in the Waffen-SS, it was in no way a general trend. The entire organization was however judged as war criminals in the Nurnberg trials, based on the actions of two divisions ("Totenkopf" and LAH) and the Allgemeine SS though they were a totally different organization.

Rolf states that in their training and deployment, the majority of the Waffen-SS units were very similar to their Heer counterparts.
Ebola respectfully disagrees.
"The Waffen SS' training methods in the early years, were probably the single most factor that elevated them to elite status with more emphasis placed on physical fitness, weapons training and fieldcraft than their army counterparts who still adhered to the old style of army training."

The true "elite" units of Nazi Germany were the Brandenburgers (who imitated the British SAS and LRDG's actions in North Africa), the Fallschirmjaeger (famous for Operation Eiche) and the 502nd SS Jaeger Battalion (which did a few assassinations and some sabotage, it recruited 50% of it's recruits from the Heer), proclaims Rolf. All three of the previously mentioned groups were the WWII equivalent of modern Special Forces units, adds Rolf.
Again, definition. I don´t require "elites" to be "special forces" to deserve being called "elite" (and neither does my dictionary).

[Rolf]

Both "Nordland" and "Wiking" were full divisions constantly engaged on the front, from start to end of WWII. They were never involved in any warcrimes"

Stop right there, firstly, Wiking was involved in several war crimes, they weren't on the same scales as the massacres that Allgemeine-SS and the Death's Head Division, states Rolf. Want evidence? Rolf didn't need to look far, Wikipedia even had sources...

The entire organization was however judged as war criminals in the Nurnberg trials, based on the actions of two divisions ("Totenkopf" and LAH) and the Allgemeine-SS though they were a totally different organization.

Non-Germans who volunteered for the Waffen-SS were criminals through treason, the only Waffen-SS members determined to be innocent of treason were the units post-43 that had basically been forced to join (the 1st Estonian as an example), states Rolf.

The heroes of the occupied countries weren't the Waffen-SS volunteers (who deserved everything they got), they were the resistance movements with the balls to stand up to their oppressor in one of the darkest moments of history, states Rolf.

Again, definition. I don´t require "elites" to be "special forces" to deserve being called "elite" (and neither does my dictionary).

With the loose definition of elite of thou, one could define any regiment that won a few battles, regardless of country, "elite", states Rolf. The word loses all meaning when half the world's Regiments and Divisions are labelled as such, believes Rolf.

[Ebola]

Stop right there, firstly, Wiking was involved in several war crimes, they weren't on the same scales as the massacres that Allgemeine-SS and the Death's Head Division, states Rolf. Want evidence? Rolf didn't need to look far, Wikipedia even had sources...
Sorry, my bad on "Wiking"; didn´t know they were helping the SS-Einsatzgruppen. Try the same with "Nordland". I doubt you will find much. But that was not my point. The thing is that Nurnberg (and you) define the entire organization as war criminals when they were not. Many were just front-soldiers.

Non-Germans who volunteered for the Waffen-SS were criminals through treason, the only Waffen-SS members determined to be innocent of treason were the units post-43 that had basically been forced to join (the 1st Estonian as an example), states Rolf.
Not true. All the volunteers from Denmark and Finland were sent to the front in honour. Though it is not a very politically correct topic these days, most Finns were strongly sympatizing with the Nazis due to the Winter War and more than half of Danes were politically supporting the nazi-friendly government until mid- or late 1942 when the "war fortune" started to turn.

Here is a picture of the first Danish volunteers leaving Denmark.
http://www.frikorps-danmark.dk/Danske/AfrejseHellerup.jpg

The Danish king even wrote a letter approving enlistment to the SS in 1941 and telling that their service under German command would fullfill the requirement in terms of Danish conscription and any rank gained by carreer officers would be transfered to the Danish equivelant once back in Denmark.
As late as June 1943 the Danish Ministery of War confirmed the terms:
http://www.frikorps-danmark.dk/images/Krigsm-juni1943-lille.jpg

The heroes of the occupied countries weren't the Waffen-SS volunteers (who deserved everything they got), they were the resistance movements with the balls to stand up to their oppressor in one of the darkest moments of history, states Rolf.
I don´t want to defend any horrific actions of nazi criminals, but it should be seen in context. I´m sure the oppressor was Russia in the eyes of the Finns...
Stalin just didn´t target Jews specifically; he killed anyone he didn´t like. From one point of view the common enemy was bolshevism, not national socialism. And communism remained the enemy of USA till 1989.

With the loose definition of elite of thou, one could define any regiment that won a few battles, regardless of country, "elite", states Rolf. The word loses all meaning when half the world's Regiments and Divisions are labelled as such, believes Rolf.
Would you define the USMC as "elite"?

[Om Namah Shivaya]

Ha soldier don't worry bout that shit anymore. My boy is a Marine deployed in Afg as we speak. Kid handles those motherfuckers everyday with NO REMORSE (the way it should be). His hummer ran over an IED (he fine) so he was using the computer and I was talking to him on facebook. Said he killed 4 men already. They keep score just like a game lmfao. IMO their is no innocent muslim just like there wasn't any innocent nazis. death to the entire religion and all its people

You win the "dumbest mother fucker on zoklet" award.

http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/you_win_prize_downs.jpg

gratz

[Rolf]

Sorry, my bad on "Wiking"; didn´t know they were helping the SS-Einsatzgruppen. The thing is that Nurnberg (and you) define the entire organization as war criminals when they were not. Many were just front-soldiers.

Many might have been frontline soldiers, many were also traitors from occupied countries who volunteered to fight for Germany, adds Rolf. Rolf does not consider every SS member to a war criminal, but a lot of them did believe truly in the Nazi cause, that is not worthy of respect according to Rolf. Either way, it might be best to agree to disagree here as it is unlikely viewpoints will change here, adds Rolf.

Though it is not a very politically correct topic these days, most Finns were strongly sympatizing with the Nazis due to the Winter War

Can't blame them can Rolf, for Finland, Nazi Germany was the lesser of two evils. The Finns even allowed Jews to fight for Finland and did not hand them over to Germany, there were synagogues in some of the bases where there were also Nazi German units, giggles Rolf. Of course, once the Russians had enough of being kicked in the teeth by ski-riding hunters with funny names, they made peace with with Finland and then required Finland to remove Nazi Germany from it's soil, which they did successfully, states Rolf.

Would you define the USMC as "elite"?

The entire organization? no, as much as they'd like to think they are, there is nothing that makes a Marine superior to the Grunt, except for that they are on average cheaper, states Rolf, though like all military branches, they have their elite units, adds Rolf.

[Ekstaz]

Russians were worse, far more ignorant, and brutal.
As is evidenced by ALL of their technology being shitty or stolen, like the AK47.

Stolen german engineers to build a cheap refined conscript rifle.
Not to mention their shitty unintelligible gibberish alphabet soup language.

[Rolf]

Russians were worse, far more ignorant, and brutal.
As is evidenced by ALL of their technology being shitty or stolen, like the AK47.

:picard:

[Ekstaz]

:picard:

rolf chooses to believe soviet propaganda, states rolf. anything russian is extremely poorly reverse engineered from german quality products and manufacturing, states rolf.