Jiu-Jitsu for self defense?

[rabbitweed]

I am looking for a martial art.

I am not really interested in the sport of it, or tournaments. Nor do I have any delusions about me pulling of a Jackie Chan scene in a night club. Nor is this an ego thing, my goal isn't to pick fights so I can feel like a bad ass.

I want something that if worst comes to worst, will come in handy for me saving my own ass.

That's basically it. I'm in it for self-preservation. Whether that means incapacitating someone before they can do me any harm, or running away, or coming out of a beating from three other guys in better shape than you otherwise would.

There's a Jiu-Jitsu club at my local uni, seems to cover all the areas (striking, grappling, chokes, ground fighting [I wonder about the practical effectiveness of ground fighting in real world situations, when a third party could just stomp on someones head, but...]), and is pretty cheap. You go through a beginners kickboxing and jiu-jitsu class before you can go into the main class.

Would this sort of thing be good for what I want?

EDIT: Carrying a concealed firearm is really not a sensible option in this country. For one thing, no matter what license you have, it's illegal.

[Resign the King]

Yeah it sounds like what you're looking for. I've never trained in Ju Jitsu personally but I've trained in Kenpo, Muay Thai and Shootfighting, any martial art should help you defend yourself in a conflict situation rather then no training.

[AnalHerpes]

I've never trained in any martial arts (interested, possibly changing that this summer) but I imagine jiu-jitsu isn't the best if your goal is to defend yourself if you get jumped by hoodlums. In a bar fight it's probably good but the thing about self-defense on the street is many muggings will involve more than one person, like you said. Even if it was only one guy who did the actual mugging there's a good chance he has a buddy who was acting as a lookout or whatnot who'd come to help him. If that is what you're preparing for I'd probably focus more on the kickboxing.

[Random_Looney]

Personally I prefer more striking-oriented arts, but you should call up and ask if you may watch a lesson or two, and then you should compare with other gyms in the area to see what you like best.

[Struwwelpeter]

Martial Arts will make you better at homoerotic bonding between males at the club but it won't do anything to help you fight, you're probably a weak ass little bitch, give Starting Strength a try and get in street fights. You want to train for self-defense, put yourself in a situation where you have to defend yourself, don't play rasslin' with a bunch of weekend warrior faggots.

[JoePedo]

I want something that if worst comes to worst, will come in handy for me saving my own ass.

Just like my instructor taught me, the most effective martial art is track 'n field...

Not effective against firearms unless preceeded by the eye gouge, but... sprinting and distance-running endurance are some of the most likely things to save your ass against large machete-wielding mobs, or whatnot.

Martial arts, otoh, can help give you an advantage in track & field through the esoteric arts of kneecap-smashing. A good, solid wapanese front-snap with your good ol' 20lb workboots right up under the kneecap can do some truly amazing shit for winning a sprinting match.

There's a Jiu-Jitsu club at my local uni, seems to cover all the areas (striking, grappling, chokes, ground fighting [I wonder about the practical effectiveness of ground fighting in real world situations, when a third party could just stomp on someones head, but...]), and is pretty cheap. You go through a beginners kickboxing and jiu-jitsu class before you can go into the main class.

Would this sort of thing be good for what I want?

Well, I can't really have any idea of my opinion for sure without sitting in on the class... but I like the whole "you have to quick-train in kickboxing before starting jew-jitsu" bit. It really sort of impresses me that they're forcing people to at least pretend to be slightly well rounded. That's cool...

Of course, quirkily enough, I'd be more likely to tell someone with your goals to throw their ass into judo as though their damned life depended on it. The sweep or throw to ground/double-booted jumping up and down on their head/run away combo is actually even more bitching for running away than the kneecap stomp, even if it does add "felony aggravated" and "attempted murder" to your simple "minor assault" if the cops think you're doing this for fun.

Nonetheless, the art of breaking things and entrapping people is still useful. There are two things you'll want to keep in mind, though...

1. Jujitsu exists in large part because it's hard to punch people in heavy armor. Unless you're planning the unarmed execution of mobs of riot police, this doesn't well apply to you.

2. Jujitsu was designed for use against people carrying weapons which were much longer than short knives. If you have friends in the SCA, you can practice the difference between arm-barring a sword versus arm-barring a knife in terms of the intactness of your thoracic cavity. Those little knives may be small, but they're dangerously maneuverable, even from a tight grappling match.

Those could be problems. On the other hand, there really is fucking nothing like a rich and multilayered lock on multiple joints - say, wrist, elbow, shoulder, neck, and lower spine - to really convey to someone that they're really not going to get anywhere with violence and should just give up helplessly...

Jujitsu as a stand-up game probably also has one of the higher learning curves of most arts. I mean, you have to catch a limb flying at high velocity, not enough to push ot to the side, but to twist it in precise ways applying pressure to precise points. Definately doable, but harder to master in a single day, definately. Luckily, some of the shit - like rear-naked-choking the shit out of the dude's shoulder until it pops out - is a lot more gross-motor than, say, trapping a wrist without getting cut by the knife...

...and if you're versed in a striking art, you can replace "apply gentle pressure" with "slam it as hard as you can with something," which helps the stand-up potential a bit.

Meh. Lemme rephrase this a bit... all arts have potential. How comfortable are you at rushing in to close enough range to clinch every time the fight starts and hanging on 'till one of you is dead? 'cause tjj is probably the lead for ways to stop a fight - with or without hurting the other guy, depending on whether you immobilize the shit out of him and apply submissions gently or just cripple your way through - but there is no lock whatsoever which can be performed from the outside of maximum kicking range...

So... how are you most comfortable in a fight? Do you feel comfortable in your ability to swiftly rush in too close for your enemy to strike, so you can splay their shoulder out against the elbow pressing their neck into new alignments? Or do you feel most comfortable with your ability to throw a very swift kick at a distance and run away from the new-made cripple?

What are your strengths and comforts?

[JoePedo]

So... how are you most comfortable in a fight? Do you feel comfortable in your ability to swiftly rush in too close for your enemy to strike, so you can splay their shoulder out against the elbow pressing their neck into new alignments? Or do you feel most comfortable with your ability to throw a very swift kick at a distance and run away from the new-made cripple?

What are your strengths and comforts?

Crap. I was bored, so I decided to illustrate this with some very lulzy yet pathetic comics, lol...

Consider, if you will, the sort of effective defense a beginner with small backgrounds in jujitsu and muay thai might best put up.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3913/beginningjujitsu1sm.jpg

When the fight breaks out(1), our intrepid white belt turtles and rushes(2), 'cause he has no idea of handplay.

Upon reaching close range, he scoops the shoulder lock and controls the opposite shoulder with a weak neck lock from the elbow to the face(3). Using his l33t beginner's muay thai class skills(4), he might then just try to knee them in the gut and sternum to incapacitate their resistance to the proper jujitsu response, which is to slam them to the ground and break fucking everything(5). In this case, this is accomplished with a drag foward, a double downwards elbow strike planting them into the ground, and a good lean, to best both dislocate the shoulder and break the neck.

He then runs the fuck away(6), not wasting time with stupid and engangering things like checking to see if the broken corpse is alive. Maybe it lived, maybe it died, get the fuck out of there before it gets up and starts to put itself back together with a pissed-off look on its face. Run, run nao.

Advanced jujitsu would look different, as would a beginner proceeding to totally suck ass by not respecting their limitations or properly applying their skills. But that would be one reasonable example of one thing that might happen in which a white belt maximized their limited knowledge for survival.

Conversely, consider some of the range-focused tejitsu, such as what might be found in northern japan, or korea, which stole it from japan.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/7633/beginningtejitsu1sm.jpg

The fight, of course, starts at a fucktardedly longer range(1). Believe it or not, 30-50 feet is not all that unrealistic, and 10-20 is a cakewalk.

Of course, at distances upwards of 20 feet, reading what your opponent is telegraphing is also a bit of a cakewalk, to the point where an unexperienced fighter can usually do it with ease. To cover both this and the distance, the itinerant white belt side-skips forward before jumping off the rear leg to bring it into a front-snap feint(2), before jumping forward onto that leg and bringing the other leg into a really bitchin' mule kick(3), for which the gut, bladder, hip, and kneecap are all pleasantly and remarkably debilitating targets.

After slamming the shit out of their opponent and probably incapacitating them - maybe for a time, maybe for life - our itinerant white belt... runs the fuck away(4). No looking back, no checking to see what the kick has done, just thrust out with the back leg into someone and immediately start running. Luckily, landing a mule kick on someone - or even being in that position - is a great place to start running from without pausing or breaking one's stride... which is good.

Both of these cutesy comics provide realistic examples of things a competent white belt might do to maximize the strengths of their limited training and respect their weaknesses - you'll notice that neither of these require any sort of complex skills like "carefully parrying the assault" or "gently grabbing their little finger in an eight-fingered over-and-under-weave fingerlock while it's still moving" or, in fact, anything very complex or skill-dependent at all. Bumrush on one hand, slam and run on the other. No blocking, no skill, no nothin.

'n both of these defenses - when appropriate to the opportunities that open up in combat - would probably work fairly well. "Slam in gut and run," or "slam into ground and run," well - both involve the two key components : running the fuck away, and something to slow them down from chasing you. So, they're both interchangeably efficient.

So... I guess the question is... which best fits your temperment, your preexisting skills, and your needs? Are you comfortable rushing in, possibly taking a punch, to incapacitate and run? Or would you rather be just inside maximal immobile kicking distance for just the briefest second, slam them and run away? Do most assaults against you start from close range (which would indicate jujitsu or sochi), or are you able to detect a person's hostile intentions usually as they're coming at you from longer ranges (which would lean a bit more towards various tejitsu or norchi longfist)? Et cetera...

Both methods - or more accurately, both extremes - will be of assistance when applied in a situationally-appropriate fashion. Both can work quite well. Which do you think is most likely to work best for you, with your existing comfort and your existing skillset?

heh. I confess - I got nothin' to say, I just wanted to make some almost-amusing stick-figure comics, lul. Bonus points to anyone who stencils 'em on a t-shirt for the "inside jokes@zoklet" flair... but... all paths lead to somewhere. 'n since you're mostly concerned with self-defense from a beginner's perspective (as opposed to 20 years later when you have mastered all possible arts for all possible situations)... well, it all works. What works best with what you already are?

[youngnastyman]

Sometimes running is completely understood to be your only way out. Alot of fighters, pros even, won't try to take on multiple enemies because there is always somebody stronger than you, it just makes more sense to run.

Look at this video:

0la6hrMnyE4

Could he have disarmed them/beat the hell out them? Probably. They were all out of shape/clearly not in as good of shape as he is. But it just makes more sense to run. Watch a Jason Bourne movie, he is a 30 million dollar assassin but he doesn't even fight half the guys after him, he just fucks up the people standing in his way as he flees the scene. I know these aren't the greatest examples (they are fiction) but its true.


If you are intent of showing them a lesson I would reccomend something with no quarter like Krav-Maga.


If you're more interested in running, you could learn something like parkour, which is what the guy in the video above is doing. Learning an art like parkour has alot of other advantages, like running when you are positive there is no way to beat the opposition (ie: police).

[Tokerface]

muay thai. nuff said

[rabbitweed]

Woah, epic posts Joe:o Thanks very much.

Everytime I have been assaulted it's been at pretty close range, sometimes far enough for a punch but never far enough for a full kick or something like that.

(To my untrained mind, doing an actual kick that isn't a knee or a shin stomp seems a bit unrealistic, outside of tournaments and theatrics...you'd be dangerously off balanced and exposed if you miss...but I digress)

As you pointed out, IRL you never really get into a boxing match, so muay thai seems a bit over board....I need to know the basics of throwing a good punch or knee or whatever, but I mean there's not gonna be 3 minutes rounds so...

Your idea of Judo, throw to the ground+headstomp+run is something I've thought a lot about before. If someones on the ground they're pretty much fucked unless they're some brilliant martial artist, and Judo is all about that, if I'm not mistaken...

On the other hand, the arm dislocatings and chokes of jiu-jitsu do seem to have a lot of practical incapicitating value.

I think I will go to JJ for a bit, do their beginner kickboxing and jiu-jitsu classes, and if that's not my thing, head to judo, and practise my headstomps.

EDIT: and I already run
EDIT 2: my upper body strength is a bit poor (I don't train it at all, and not naturally built there), but I do have quite powerful legs (just naturally have massive legs). dunno how much that influences things...

[Psionicist]

If you're more interested in running, you could learn something like parkour, which is what the guy in the video above is doing. Learning an art like parkour has alot of other advantages, like running when you are positive there is no way to beat the opposition (ie: police).

Since i can't really speak with much authority on martial arts beyond basic knife fighting, I'm quoting this for emphasis. A few months practicing parkour can be just as life saving as a few years spent practicing martial arts. Not that i'm knocking that, the more well rounded your training is the better prepared you will be for any given situation.

But seriously, parkour makes for great strength/endurance training, does wonders for your coordination, and is invaluable for escape/evasion.

Edit: just read your edit, saw that you already run. do you mean regular running, or freerunning? obviously both are best, and either one is good, but i guess i'm sort of biased here.

[TruthWielder]

Martial Arts will make you better at homoerotic bonding between males at the club but it won't do anything to help you fight, you're probably a weak ass little bitch, give Starting Strength a try and get in street fights. You want to train for self-defense, put yourself in a situation where you have to defend yourself, don't play rasslin' with a bunch of weekend warrior faggots.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/wakkosmakka/excellent.jpg

As if there is anything that could be less helpful.

Please please PLEASE go to ANY muay thai/mma/jiujitsu/krav maga/bujinkan/jeetkunedo gym and call them faggots. Please. Tape record for posterity.

And even if the gym were full of cock monglers, I got one word for you sonny jim:

Spartans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_Army

[rabbitweed]

Edit: just read your edit, saw that you already run. do you mean regular running, or freerunning? obviously both are best, and either one is good, but i guess i'm sort of biased here.

Regular running. Never really thought about Parkour, suppose it might be an idea.

[PuttinOnTheRitz]

Trust me, the best thing you could do is get an operation to replace your human arms with robot arms. You may have to spend some money but it will pay off in the end.

[Psionicist]

If you have a few friends to do it with, it can be loads of fun. not to mention it's great physical conditioning.

Who wouldn't want to learn how to land a fall from two/three stories without getting hurt?

[Struwwelpeter]

TruthWielder, I'm only right across from you, to your left, right on the gulf coast. I could very easily be in Miami in a matter of hours. What school do you go to and when will you be there?

[TruthWielder]

TruthWielder, I'm only right across from you, to your left, right on the gulf coast. I could very easily be in Miami in a matter of hours. What school do you go to and when will you be there?

Haha! A challenge Sonny jim? Next weekend would be fine with me. In fact, I'd be glad to give you half the gas money.

I used to attend this school:

http://www.unifiedmartialart.com/

Oh yeah, my teacher is a black guy.

But no, it wouldnt do to meet there. However, there are several fine parks and open comfortable places to play a little fisticuffs in. Gladly.

[Resign the King]

Since i can't really speak with much authority on martial arts beyond basic knife fighting, I'm quoting this for emphasis. A few months practicing parkour can be just as life saving as a few years spent practicing martial arts. Not that i'm knocking that, the more well rounded your training is the better prepared you will be for any given situation.

But seriously, parkour makes for great strength/endurance training, does wonders for your coordination, and is invaluable for escape/evasion.


I'm not denying it would help, but if someone has you in a choke or grab or is throwing a punch or kick at you parkour won't help at all. With martial arts training you practice over and over and over again how to block and counterattack many different attacks.

[Struwwelpeter]

Haha! A challenge Sonny jim? Next weekend would be fine with me. In fact, I'd be glad to give you half the gas money.

I used to attend this school:

http://www.unifiedmartialart.com/

Oh yeah, my teacher is a black guy.

But no, it wouldnt do to meet there. However, there are several fine parks and open comfortable places to play a little fisticuffs in. Gladly.

Okay, name a park.

[TruthWielder]

Okay, name a park.

Hammocks park.

104th street and hammocks boulevard (148th avenue). If you're coming from naples the tamiami should get you here quick. Bring a friend of course, so you're not in this foreign place meeting a godless heathen such as myself. And of course, if anyone asks were just training. I'll bring a single friend along as well.

[Struwwelpeter]

No friends.

[TruthWielder]

No friends.

No? Then what if you shoot me down the moment I go to shake your hand as an honorable gentleman? Please. I don't think asking for a witness is too much.

And relax. I have no intention of killing or gravely injuring you. In fact, the biggest thing fucking me in my life right now is old hospital bills and I wish that nuisance on no one. Regardless, you're welcome to bring a second, just like in the old days. Of course, the fight is only between us though.

And I would love to take you out for a good meal afterwards. :)

[Struwwelpeter]

No people, no holds barred, no protective gear. Google Earth says I should be there by six in the evening on Monday. The fight starts at 10:00PM on Monday night. That should leave you enough time to enjoy a last meal and say goodbye to your family and friends.

[TruthWielder]

No people, no holds barred, no protective gear. Google Earth says I should be there by six in the evening on Monday. The fight starts at 10:00PM on Monday night. That should leave you enough time to enjoy a last meal and say goodbye to your family and friends.

Allright he-man. I understand you're pride is aching but do relax the strain on your hat and belt eh? First off, I said next weekend. Next, I would only agree to this on the condition that I could bring one friend. And if murder is your honest to goodness intent, I suggest you fight battles that are far more rewarding.

[BiggLJ]

Why would you need a friend there?

[TruthWielder]

Why would you need a friend there?

In the event the guy decides to bust a cap in my ass and dip.
:cool:

That is, shoot me/stab me/rob me and run.

[Psionicist]

I'm not denying it would help, but if someone has you in a choke or grab or is throwing a punch or kick at you parkour won't help at all. With martial arts training you practice over and over and over again how to block and counterattack many different attacks.

Of course it's not going to help much there, the point is more of a preventive type of training, rather than something to be used during a fight. Better to avoid a brawl than engage in one, even if you're confident you have the skills to win. At least, in my opinion.

Allright he-man. I understand you're pride is aching but do relax the strain on your hat and belt eh? First off, I said next weekend. Next, I would only agree to this on the condition that I could bring one friend. And if murder is your honest to goodness intent, I suggest you fight battles that are far more rewarding.

I don't think that bringing a friend sounds very unreasonable. After all, who's going to take pics/video that can be posted on zoklet later?

[BiggLJ]

In the event the guy decides to bust a cap in my ass and dip.
:cool:

That is, shoot me/stab me/rob me and run.

I don't see how having a friend with you will prevent him from shooting or stabbing you, if anything you'll just be getting your friend shot/stabbed too.

[Resign the King]

If you guys really go through with it report back here how it went.

[TruthWielder]

I don't see how having a friend with you will prevent him from shooting or stabbing you, if anything you'll just be getting your friend shot/stabbed too.

It gives less incentive to kill. After all two bodies and two murder cases are harder to deal with than one. If he has a knife than only I could get hurt as my friend could simply run or attack his back. If he has a gun, its a lot harder to shoot two moving targets than one.

[Struwwelpeter]

Why would it give less incentive? I'm taking a gun until you agree just you and me.

[TruthWielder]

If you guys really go through with it report back here how it went.

Will do, I doubt it though. See, he made his initial threat thinking I had no martial arts experience and thus no martial arts school. Like most insecure bullies he then, when dealing with the unexpected, just tried to be quiet and tough and not make himself look silly. Thats why he issued a challenge that he knew I would not except after putting on a facade of toughness.

Fortunately I've learned that the actually tough people are those that can talk about slitting someones throat as calmly and loquaciously as talking about afternoon tea. In any case, I also have no serious predisposition to fight other than my own vague sense of honor and refusal to give up a challenge. I don't like hurting others and I'm sure he isn't particularly fond of it either. But really, I'm not all that preoccupied by this, and I suspect neither is he.

No big deal really.

[TruthWielder]

Why would it give less incentive? I'm taking a gun until you agree just you and me.

lol, then don't go bud because you'd be wasting quite a bit of gas. You know that obviously one other person in plain sight presents no more of a threat than one person. Why? Because it takes only one gun to kill.

Its interesting that you feel threatened enough to feel you might need a gun though, of course it could be just blowing smoke.

Frankly jimmy, I don't care enough about you to bother with the logistics of this, the result of your hurt pride, much longer.

[Struwwelpeter]

TruthWielder I am warning you, I have killed numerous people in the past over internet discourse, one more would not make any difference.

[TruthWielder]

TruthWielder I am warning you, I have killed numerous people in the past over internet discourse, one more would not make any difference.

The only thing you've killed is my sense of urgency. You are a blatant fool to even think that because your will or ego is denied or injured that the injury or just plain hurt of the person making you feel small is a necessary outcome. Only such fools that actually feel their views are unequivocably right would wish negativity upon others due to their injured pride as that is the center of all selfishness: the destruction of that which displeases arbitrary worldviews. And the opposite of the intent of rational discourse, to uncover bias and falseness, and reveal truth.

That is so characteristic of people like you. Ignorant fucktards who believe that the best thing they can do is impose their own ignorance and pain on others, in the belief that it is somehow justified because other people similarly choose to internally victimize themselves. Thus, the ku klux klan, stormfront, etc. etc.Pathetic.

As ludicrous as you are on a daily basis you're reaching new highs of idiocy. Careful who you threaten jimmy boy, I assure you you're not the only one with a gun and the right to use it.

[Struwwelpeter]

TruthWielder I have read your posts and I have decided that the only way we are going to settle this is to kill one another. This is no longer about a fist fight but a gun fight, I want to meet you at the park and have a draw, I can no longer tolerate this.

[TruthWielder]

TruthWielder I have read your posts and I have decided that the only way we are going to settle this is to kill one another. This is no longer about a fist fight but a gun fight, I want to meet you at the park and have a draw, I can no longer tolerate this.

Its a damn shame isn't it? Living in a world where your word is not law? Where your thought is not gospel? Where people disagree with you vehemently and have their ups and downs and insults and live and die for all manner of reasons that you approve of, dissapprove of and with all sorts of passions within and beyond your comprehension?

Thats life. Yeah, its tough. Get the fuck over it.

Its unfortunate but the age of the fair duel is over. I would see it back, but now their is no guarantee of what is called "honor" among men.

Thank goodness that we live in a country where no matter what are views are, no one can persecute us. The end of persecution, now that is worth dying for. Perhaps you are willing to die for the inanity of your hurt feelings but frankly, I find my satisfaction in the comfort that I have so much to live for, so many great expectations and lovely people. Perhaps that would be a better place to focus your passions?

[rabbitweed]

TruthWielder I have read your posts and I have decided that the only way we are going to settle this is to kill one another. This is no longer about a fist fight but a gun fight, I want to meet you at the park and have a draw, I can no longer tolerate this.

Come to New Zealand and try and kill me:thumbsup: Would you like my address?

[Struwwelpeter]

TruthWielder I now want a deathmatch, bring your friend and as many armed people you can find who are willing to die for this. You have crossed the line.

[TruthWielder]

TruthWielder I now want a deathmatch, bring your friend and as many armed people you can find who are willing to die for this. You have crossed the line.

:picard:

YOU have crossed the line. Of trolling.

Sigh...anyway, to the thread topic at hand:

RabbitWeed, really jiujitsu is a tremendous start when your beginning martial arts training. I do have to emphasize that you need a striking game though. Being on the ground when fighting more than one person is not a good place to be. Then again your gym might have that as well but nowadays with the increase in gyms its really hard to make distinctions as far as quality goes. ESPECIALLY in striking arts (muay thai, boxing, jkd, krav maga).

[Struwwelpeter]

Come to New Zealand and try and kill me:thumbsup: Would you like my address?

http://rehojinn.tallassee.com/cpg1416/index.htm

[crazzyass]

Jujitsu + Krav Maga + Parkour = Domination

[Name's Taken]

ITT: JFLC trolls.

[Valkoinen Kuolema]

Yeah, anything is better than being untrained.

I tend to not suggest the more grappling based arts for self-defense though... if you are jumped by somebody, they are usually not alone. Grappling loses it's usefulness when there is more than one person... in my opinion.

[Jitsu6500]

rabbitweed, I take BJJ, and I must say, it's really effective. It helps if you know how to clinch, there are a variety of things you can do to win it from that point on.

Some Muay Thai knees, a takedown, a throw, flying armbar, etc.

And once on the ground, even a beginner BJJ'er could defeat a black belt Kung Fu'ist in a matter of seconds.

[Virus]

rabbitweed, I take BJJ, and I must say, it's really effective. It helps if you know how to clinch, there are a variety of things you can do to win it from that point on.

Some Muay Thai knees, a takedown, a throw, flying armbar, etc.

And once on the ground, even a beginner BJJ'er could defeat a black belt Kung Fu'ist in a matter of seconds.

http://www.canyoncreekcustom.com/images/dark-earth-rt.gif

[Jitsu6500]

Good luck shooting me in NZ. You should have posted a knife or a bat or something.

[Virus]

Good luck shooting me in NZ. You should have posted a knife or a bat or something.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0873649834.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif

[JoePedo]

Wow. This thread certainly got interesting while I was gone.

(To my untrained mind, doing an actual kick that isn't a knee or a shin stomp seems a bit unrealistic, outside of tournaments and theatrics...you'd be dangerously off balanced and exposed if you miss...but I digress)

Varies alot with whether your kick is appropriate to your targeting, and whether your technique is decent, actually. For one thing, on "off balance and exposed," I can fight pretty well with the other person holding my leg, but...

...side-snap, is pretty useless below about the center of the abdomen. Side-thrust, on the other hand, is pretty useless above the lower abdomen. The mule kick, otoh, can be high or low, and it doesn't really affect balance much at all - after all, if you're doing it high, your forehead is practically touching the ground while you push back, anyways...

In none of these should you take your weight off the rear leg or otherwise throw your bodyweight into it in a way which would unbalance you. With the exception of the few thrusts (side and mule), all kicks are jabs, based on speed rather than weight, or are hip rotations. Also, at all times, you should be prepared to take to your hands and kick with the other leg in the sorts of leg grapples which, by your post, you'll start learning after your 2w introductory kickboxing class. Scissorlocks and legbreaks are pretty much the ultimate defense to someone trying to grapple your kicking leg, on the off chance that it happens. Done right, you end up on top of anyone who tries, possibly after kicking them.

So really, they have a few uses.

Everytime I have been assaulted it's been at pretty close range, sometimes far enough for a punch but never far enough for a full kick or something like that.

Aha!

In that case...

1. Sign up for the TJJ if the school doesn't suck. Ask your instructor to focus mostly on shoulder locks and gross armbars with you.

2. At the same time, sign up for judo. Ask the instructor to focus almost entirely on unseating (the part of judo no one talks about, I don't know if every school teaches it, but there's a whole discipline within judo on how to disrupt someone's balance by moving their shoulders away from their hips, and using this to move their hips away from their feet, with either a push, pull, or turn of their shoulders)... and judo leg sweeps.

3. Still at the same time, find a muay thai school. Ignore almost everything, and ask the instructor to focus mostly on clinch-grabbing and elbows. From what I've discovered talking to others, muay thai schools vary between straight-leg and snap roundhouses. If you find one which uses the snap roundhouse, also focus on leg breaks with the lower thai kick. It's pretty bitchin' to knock someone's hip out of socket with a knee strike and break their ankle with your shin at the same time. Oh, yeah, one or two knees while you're at it.

At this time, you should have a really bitchin' beginner fighting style in which you hug their head with their hands and hurl them to the ground for the beating (judo unseats) with your forearms draped down their chest, yet can still wrap like an octopus around their limbs and break it, all while boxing with your elbows quite skillfully from a range of about six inches - and yet, while they're trying to clinch-box you, you're also sweeping, tripping, and hooking their legs to slam them to the ground at the same time you're twisting and strongarming their upper body with the clinch-grab to throw them to the ground (and trapping and breaking their limbs and elbowing them in the face. with occasional knees, if they try to get a little distance to swing).

This isn't going to carry you through an honor match, but it should be enough to make an assailant essentially incapable of doing anything for a bit at the start of your assault while you beat the fuck out of them for a second before you successfully throw them down, kick them in the head, and run away. Pretty damned well, actually. Once you've got the components listed above pretty well integrated, and feel you're pretty damned good with the "limited" form, go ahead and study the rest of each art...

Control the body. Trip the legs. Bash the face. Jujitsu controls will tend to break stuff, while the muay thai/judo combination won't, but it's all the same - the sole purpouse of the whole thing is "attack denial" (and in fact, total action denial), and even the elbows to the face aren't there to damage them (they do), but to stun, disorient and confuse them while you toss them around.

Done right, they should be completely helpless for a good long time until they adapt to the "tripped, beaten shaken baby" environmental state. For a low-average person on the street, I'd give it about five good full seconds before they even think about trying to figure out how to fight back. They should be tripped/shoved/pulled and on the ground long before then, subject to a good beating and run.

The most difficult opponent for such a strategy would be a student of the Lotus style of Ahjan Mahachanavong, and the Hajukenbo and northern Xil lum schools from which that aspect derives. It's a double downwards elbow to the clinch with a double spearhand under the throat, followed by as many agressive, advancing face claws and gouges can blind, cripple and disfigure you.

OTOH, if you are being attacked by secret cabals of elite death ninjas, it is definately time to question your lifestyle, not your martial style. ;)

Anyways, the fused threefold art up above is just one of the possible options, suggested based on your described situation (assaulted, extreme close range) and needs (enemy attack denial, swift disposal, workable with low training, inhibiting pursuit for safe flight). There are lots of other possibilities out there, if you'd prefer another one - walking up to a teacher of xil lum tiger and asking "teach me about my opponent's face" would probably do wonders for distracting an opponent, though I have no idea where one would find a "shoving match fu" for the overbearing under its cover or what sort of disabling would be prefered to cover flight... but, point being, you're not bound to anything, it's just a unity in philosophy and technique which works and matches your paramaters...

[Jitsu6500]

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[JoePedo]

The most difficult opponent for such a strategy...

...oh, yeah. p.s... While not so specifically designed to the situation, getting in a chi sao match while trying to clinch-fight would be a bitch, too...

[Snoopy]

Yeah, anything is better than being untrained.

I tend to not suggest the more grappling based arts for self-defense though... if you are jumped by somebody, they are usually not alone. Grappling loses it's usefulness when there is more than one person... in my opinion.

It takes about 3 seconds to squeeze a man's head from his neck. I don't understand how everyone here is saying that any grappling oriented practice won't do you any good. In a mugging, one guy will hold you down while the other(s) punch, kick and take your wallet. Grappling will train you how to get out of locks. It's crucial.

[TruthWielder]

...oh, yeah. p.s... While not so specifically designed to the situation, getting in a chi sao match while trying to clinch-fight would be a bitch, too...

With respect joe thats pretty silly.

Trapping does not automatically stop a fight for a training drill. Unless you simply mean to say both people were familiar with wing chun or some other southern kung fu styles that emphasized chi sao and knew how to trap. In which case, it shouldn't take more than a few seconds (at most) to determine a winner in that regard.

[Warped Mindless]

Although I recommend a striking art (Muay Thai) for self defense I did put some prick in an arm bar today that tackled me for talking to his girl. He tackled me to the side out of no where, got on top of me and threw some punches, I was able to not get hit by most of them. With in a few seconds I got his arm and put him in an arm bar.

[Jitsu6500]

Although I recommend a striking art (Muay Thai) for self defense I did put some prick in an arm bar today that tackled me for talking to his girl. He tackled me to the side out of no where, got on top of me and threw some punches, I was able to not get hit by most of them. With in a few seconds I got his arm and put him in an arm bar.

Then what happened?