Firearms for Home Protection

[v0x]

Although I'm definitely not able to get one right now, when I do move into my own house/condo, I'd like to buy a handgun to defend myself against any burglars/kidnappers/assassins/foreign government agents/etc. that break in. I've read a few articles on it, and most recommend a .32 to .44 caliber revolver that is kept loaded with basic, but reliable hollow point bullets. This seems to me to be the mot logical choice, since those calibers are (IMO) have enough stopping power to protect your home, and (so I've heard) hollow point bullets do damage and cause pain, but don't have the risk of making a hole through the robber. Also, fewer shots are needed to disable the average interloper (true?). Anyway, most of this I've learned from Totse articles and guides on private websites, so I could be entirely wrong. Also, although I know more about firearms than the average person, I definitely don't consider myself an expert. Because of that, I figured you guys could give me a good second opinion or give some more details on a specific model and ammo. Thanks!

Edit: Oh btw, I'm just looking for a basic gun. Don't need anything fancy, but I need it to be very reliable. Obviously, I will practice with it. If anyone else has different needs or wants to discuss firearms for home protection, go ahead. This thread's for everybody.


If you don't want to read above, basically, this is just a thread about which firearm is best for home protection.

[ArmsMerchant]

I would recommend a .38 special revolver, glasers.

[The Phreak]

I would go with a 12 gauge shotgun with 3 1/2 inch turkey loads. They will make a robber go airborn, along with blowing a hole in him, you wont miss, and your just a bad ass with a shotty

[OneSadisticFucker]

I recommend the Mossberg 500 Rolling Thunder Shotgun. I plan on getting one.

http://www.snakeriverarms.com/siteadmin/productimages/pro_10144_1_6.JPG

[reggie_love]

I would go with a 12 gauge shotgun with 3 1/2 inch turkey loads. They will make a robber go airborn, along with blowing a hole in him, you wont miss, and your just a bad ass with a shotty

:facepalm:

[5.56 SS109]

For an on-the-cheap, ultra simple, home defense option.

Take a look at any basic Mossberg 500, Remington 870, or the NEF Pardner Pump Protector (damn good shotgun for $150) and load it with copper plated 00 buckshot, preferably made by Federal.

Or (and I really can't believe I'm saying this) even a Ruger 10/22 with a few reliable 25 round magazines and GOOD ammo is better than nothing.


Don't let that "over penetration" shit rot your brain, anything that will go into a bad guy will also go through a wall and cause damage to whatever is on the other side.

If you're looking for something that doesn't, than you do no want a firearm.

[blue_monday]

inb4 9mm vs 45/caliber wars

I live out in the middle of the country. Our main concern out here is animals attacking the livestock, so i've got a different situiation, but for you I'd say get a 38/357 revolver with some good ammo, like greyfox said. Dont get a short barrel, go for 5-6 inches unless you plan on concealed carry with the thing. It'll make it easier to hit with by giving it a longer sight radius. Operation will be simple, and it can be stored loaded with no worries of fucking up mag springs. Just my opinion, but a shotgun or an auto handgun wouldn't be bad either.

[Vargus]

I would recommend a .38 special revolver, glasers.

While I know next to nothing about the power coming out of a revolver, Glassers sound like a bad idea. If the assailant is wearing a thick leather jacket they might not do any damage at all.

I don't think I can recommend Hi-Point products enough if you would rather have an autoloader as opposed to a revolver. I'm sure you'd get more firepower for it's price price than a revolver.

[Animal Farm Pig]

For an on-the-cheap, ultra simple, home defense option.

Take a look at any basic Mossberg 500, Remington 870, or the NEF Pardner Pump Protector (damn good shotgun for $150) and load it with copper plated 00 buckshot, preferably made by Federal.
....
Don't let that "over penetration" shit rot your brain, anything that will go into a bad guy will also go through a wall and cause damage to whatever is on the other side.

If you're looking for something that doesn't, than you do no want a firearm.

This.

If you're looking for something purely for home defense (in other words, not going to be walking down Main Street with it), you want a long gun. A good pump action shotgun is great for this.

If you're really wanting a hand gun, you should shoot several and see what feels best to you. Don't limit yourself to just revolvers or to a specific brand or caliber. The key is to have something that you have confidence in and are comfortable shooting.

[ilovechronic]

9 mm semi auto handgun is what i keep. the springfield xd-9. 410-12 gauge shot gun is also a good home d gun. Shotguns are not the best for apartments but neither are handguns. a .410 shot gun would be good for it.

[ilovechronic]

load it with copper plated 00 buckshot, preferably made by Federal.

.
that is what my mossberg 500 has loaded in it. 00 15 pellet copper plated buckshot.(12ga)

I am thinking about getting some #4 also.

[Groundhog whacka]

I keep my 9mm in an electronic lock box on the night stand. Before I had kids the 870 stood in the corner by the bed loaded. As far as I'm concerned any gun beats throwing your pillow at them. Just get something that you are comfortable with and become adept with it.

[ilovechronic]

I recommend the Mossberg 500 Rolling Thunder Shotgun. I plan on getting one.

http://www.snakeriverarms.com/siteadmin/productimages/pro_10144_1_6.JPG

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/rp1111_2007/IMG_0392.jpg
this works just as well. and if you really want to you can but a pistol grip for 20$. The basic short barrel 500 is probably cheaper.

In my opinion for home defense you dont really need that barrel shroud and door breach muzzle or whatever muzzle that is.

[OneSadisticFucker]

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/rp1111_2007/IMG_0392.jpg
this works just as well. and if you really want to you can but a pistol grip for 20$. The basic short barrel 500 is probably cheaper.

In my opinion for home defense you dont really need that barrel shroud and door breach muzzle or whatever muzzle that is.

For just home defense, Get this.

Dominion Arms Outlaw Double Barrel Shotgun 12"

http://i34.tinypic.com/jtum3n.jpg

[Mantikore]

Don't let that "over penetration" shit rot your brain, anything that will go into a bad guy will also go through a wall and cause damage to whatever is on the other side.



i think its more accurate to say "anything that WONT go through a wall wont go through a bad guy"

[DJ Meaty Cheeks]

What you need motherfucker is this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg

Or if you want to be mundane just test some guns at a local store/range and find one you're comfortable with.

[Stinger]

For just home defense, Get this.

Dominion Arms Outlaw Double Barrel Shotgun 12"

http://i34.tinypic.com/jtum3n.jpg

It would be less of a pain in the ass just to get an 18" or longer barreled shotgun rather than having to go through the process of getting a tax stamp and registering a short barreled shotgun. SBSs are more of a novelty than anything.

[The Savage]

Personally i think over penetration is a good thing to an extent. Exit wounds bleed a shitload more than entry wounds, granted that you'd want someone to be on the floor before bleeding out become a major concern for them but adding rapid blood loss to a shreaded lung or something isn't going to hurt.

[AnalHerpes]

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w148/rp1111_2007/IMG_0392.jpg
this works just as well. and if you really want to you can but a pistol grip for 20$. The basic short barrel 500 is probably cheaper.

In my opinion for home defense you dont really need that barrel shroud and door breach muzzle or whatever muzzle that is.

You have to admit that after watching No Country For Old Men you thought to yourself "that suppressed shotgun was fucking sweet".

[5.56 SS109]

Personally i think over penetration is a good thing to an extent. Exit wounds bleed a shitload more than entry wounds, granted that you'd want someone to be on the floor before bleeding out become a major concern for them but adding rapid blood loss to a shreaded lung or something isn't going to hurt.

Over penetration or not, 00 buck is like getting hit with a 9 round burst from a fucking VZ-61 :D

[The Swede]

20ga and .222 rem combi shotgun.
Blast his ass with the 20ga BIRDSHOT and headshot the motherfucker with the .222rem!

Birdshot is to make his last moments alive as painful as possible.

[v0x]

Thanks for all the input, but maybe I didn't put down my needs too clearly...

1. I do not want to kill the person, just disable him
2. I just need a handgun. Although they're nice, I can't fit a rifle/shotgun/giant fucking badass minigun in my nightstand drawer.
3. I am going to keep this thing loaded all the time, and want it to work very well, even after sitting in a drawer for several weeks.
4. I will be practicing with this gun probably once a month. I need to know what kind of ammo I should practice with.

In this case, I think I was right with the .32 - .44 caliber pistol or revolver. I think that a .38 will fulfill my purposes very well, but I still have no idea which brand/ammo is the right one. Anyone know a good, stable .38 (special, super, acp, snub, or just plain old .38?) that isn't too pricey? And ammo to go with it? Thanks.

[3rdBullet]

Thanks for all the input, but maybe I didn't put down my needs too clearly...

1. I do not want to kill the person, just disable him
2. I just need a handgun. Although they're nice, I can't fit a rifle/shotgun/giant fucking badass minigun in my nightstand drawer.
3. I am going to keep this thing loaded all the time, and want it to work very well, even after sitting in a drawer for several weeks.
4. I will be practicing with this gun probably once a month. I need to know what kind of ammo I should practice with.

In this case, I think I was right with the .32 - .44 caliber pistol or revolver. I think that a .38 will fulfill my purposes very well, but I still have no idea which brand/ammo is the right one. Anyone know a good, stable .38 (special, super, acp, snub, or just plain old .38?) that isn't too pricey? And ammo to go with it? Thanks.

First, if you shoot, you shoot to kill, unless you want a nice "assault w/ a deadly weapon" charge stapled to your ass.

As for the ammo, practice with the cheap shit, keep some federal JHP for the real deal. .38 is a good round, but I'm a little partial to the .357 magnum. But maybe that's just me.

[Random_Looney]

Make sure you say you shot to incapacitate the threat if you're in court. Any lawyer should be able to tell you.

You want to avoid a charge of maiming or GHB while not setting yourself up for murder/manslaughter ("I meant to kill him").

And remember that shooting to incapacitate is only reliably accomplished by major CNS/organ damage. The average healthy person under thirty can lose 25% of their blood without risk of permanent damage.

In short, they will not bleed out without risking a fight... which I've personally seen the aftermath of. Someone shot an intruder and they ended up struggling for weapon control until the BG bled out.

[The Savage]

I'd stay away from the .32's as they're a pretty wimpy round. A .38/.357 revolver or an autoloader in 9mm or bigger seems to be the standard.

.357sig in a Glock or something could be a choice? they come close to duplicating the .357 magnum in ballistics but you get the bonus of a high capacity autoloader. Plus Glocks are reliable as hell ;) .

[5.56 SS109]

Well, since you want a handgun I recommend that you buy a Springfield Armory XD9 or a GLOCK 19.


However, since it seems this firearm won't be carried I would also suggest that you look into something larger like a GLOCK 34 or 17L or a Springfield XD9 Tactical.

The longer barrel length and sight radius of these pistols means they will be easier to shoot under stress and the added weight at the muzzle will also reduce recoil.

Also, don't skimp on the firearm.

Stay the fuck away from Hi-Point and Taurus.

When it comes to firearms for self defense it's not "buy cheap, buy twice".

It's "Buy cheap and die".


And, for practice, I would use Winchester 100 round vales packs (Winchester White Box).

For defense I would look into Speer Gold Dots, Federal HST, Federal Tactical Bonded, Winchester Ranger, Winchester PXZ (which is basically bonded Ranger in 20 round commercial boxes), or even Federal +P+ Hi-Shok (9BPLE) as well as Corbon DPX.

You can buy pretty much all of these loadings (except for Ranger) from Streichers.com.

Except nearly everything is backordered.

But, the do have 9BPLE for $17 per 50, I just ordered 3 boxes, but I have no idea when they will get here.

[vnorberto]

I'd stay away from the .32's as they're a pretty wimpy round. A .38/.357 revolver or an autoloader in 9mm or bigger seems to be the standard.

.357sig in a Glock or something could be a choice? they come close to duplicating the .357 magnum in ballistics but you get the bonus of a high capacity autoloader. Plus Glocks are reliable as hell ;) .

hai gaiz i want teh .50 calzz cuz my pen0r is teeny lul !!!!!1!!1!111!!1111

fuck you, a well placed .25 or .22 shot will kill you good n dead asap.

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

Eh, I've got a 12 gauge with 3" 00 buck. Pretty standard setup. Trying to get the paperwork in order so I can stick a 14" barrel on it. The only thing I've "defended" myself from is a coyote trying to eat my neighbor's animals.

My house is a rather defensible layout. There is no way a vehicle can get here without alerting me(or my dogs, which alert me), a hallway between the exits and bedrooms, and nowhere they could park where I wouldn't have a clear shot at their vehicle from behind cover.

I think having a good plan and system is more important than your choice of weaponry. You can have a fucking minigun at your hip, and if the person breaking in gets the drop on you, they might just stab you in the neck with your own letter opener(which they will later pawn for drug money). Whereas a book shelf you can prop against the door to buy you a few minutes might save your ass if you're outnumbered and unarmed.

[LavaRed]

My recommendation along your lines is that you by an S&W or Taurus Revolver in .38 spl. As for ammunition, I've found that Partizan makes some pretty effective rounds for it. Soft nose hollowpoints seem to give good results

On another note, keeping your gun in a drawer is a very bad idea. If you need to use it qucikly, keep it on top of your bedside table.

For a wheelgun, avoid anything lesser than .38 spl.; .357 Magnum is better, because a gun chambered for it will also chamber .38 spl. A S&W Model 327 in .357 Magnum will give you 8 shots; two more than your average revolver. But succesful shooting with .357 Magnum requires lots of traning. Again, Partizan softnosed rounds have proven satisfactory in this caliber.

To tell you the truth, I prefer to stick to simple, traditional, easy to use rounds. Stay away from anything that looks too fancy. If you end up getting a semiauto, normal ball will work ok. Softnosed ammunition works wonders from a revolver. If it says eXtreme! shock, stay away from it. If it costs too much, its probably stuff for mall ninjas.

To be quite honest, in my experience the simplest gun/ammo combinations yield sufficient results when you have to defend yourself. Just find a gun that you're comfortable with; as for ammo, any kind of bullet will satisfactorily kill if well placed; the rest is just embroidery.

As a rule of thumb, these brands never fail to turn out a good product:

Revolvers:
S&W
Colt
Webley

Pistols:
Colt
FN
IMI
CZ
Glock
Springfield

Assault rifles and Replicas (Semi Auto versions):
Colt
FN
Russian made AK's (I don't care for any other except the Yugo's)
Zastava
CZ
IMI

Shotguns:
Beretta
Benelli
Pretty much anything made in Europe
Winchester
Remington
Mossberg

As for ammunition, these brands always make an efficient, reliable, product:
Wolf
Prvi Partizan
Barnaul
Winchester
Aguila
CCI

Anything outside of this list you take with a grain of salt, because it will either be cheapo stuff or overkill, and thus not efficient. And I know that there will be some of us that have found other guns and ammo to perform satisfactorily, but I'm talking here about stuff that you can be sure will not let you down.

[The Swede]

I would add Savage to that list Hector, but that's just me :D

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

Aye, I support LavaRed on the revolver recommendation. I've got a 6" 686, and it would be my second choice to a 12 gauge. The longer barrel really balances out the recoil, and you can still be pretty accurate just putting the front blade on the target as long as your head is positioned relatively right. I think that is called long sight arc/radius, or something along those lines. It is easier to hit things with than a small autoloader, at least for me.

[LavaRed]

I would add Savage to that list Hector, but that's just me :D

True. Forgot them and SIG Sauer, although the latter are at the expensive spectrum of things.

[5.56 SS109]

From what I understand, SIGs made in the US are pretty shitty.

[Mullen]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Hkmp5sd/410a.jpg

[The Savage]

hai gaiz i want teh .50 calzz cuz my pen0r is teeny lul !!!!!1!!1!111!!1111

fuck you, a well placed .25 or .22 shot will kill you good n dead asap.

Yea, a well placed shot. The "well placed" part is hard to do when you're 1/2 asleep and/or pretty hyped up and/or in the dark, and/or you have to shoot on reflex and/or the fucker is 300lbs and has been doing blow like scarface....... There are also more than a few reports of people being hit multiple times with 9mm's and other more powerful handgun calibers and not only staying on their feet but still possing a threat.

Shot placement is Number One when killing or "Stopping" something, however when you can't be certain of surgical shot placement, Using a bigger round and a gun that holds a lot of those bigger rounds is a good idea.

[Eskorbuto]

Yea, a well placed shot. The "well placed" part is hard to do when you're 1/2 asleep and/or pretty hyped up and/or in the dark, and/or you have to shoot on reflex and/or the fucker is 300lbs and has been doing blow like scarface....... There are also more than a few reports of people being hit multiple times with 9mm's and other more powerful handgun calibers and not only staying on their feet but still possing a threat.

Shot placement is Number One when killing or "Stopping" something, however when you can't be certain of surgical shot placement, Using a bigger round and a gun that holds a lot of those bigger rounds is a good idea.

You can kill an elephant with a stapler.

The problem is it will die way after you've been mauled and stomped into a piece of shit.

Guns with stopping power = Lifesavers.

[Vargus]

Stay the fuck away from Hi-Point and Taurus.

I have had excellent reliability with my C9, and I've heard nothing but positive things about Taurus autoloaders. Of which my next pistol purchase is going to be a PT92.

[Eskorbuto]

Yeah I've got a HiPoint 995 9mm carbine and it works just fine. So what if it's not pretty?

[Random_Looney]

hai gaiz i want teh .50 calzz cuz my pen0r is teeny lul !!!!!1!!1!111!!1111

fuck you, a well placed .25 or .22 shot will kill you good n dead asap.

So will a .17 pellet. Your point being?

You are trying to argue that a .25 or .32 is sufficient. That's a personal, subjective assessment. I prefer .380 and up. That said, I used to carry .45 on my personal time and have switched to 9mm due to cost.

The assumptions you make are that under stress one has good shot placement and proper penetration, something not likely in a .25 or even necessarily a .22 from a handgun. Shot placement is paramount, but larger caliber makes it slightly less of an issue and almost makes sure that sufficient penetration is achieved, which is necessary for shot placement to mean anything (bullet to the head not penetrating the skull= worthless). Look at the 1986 Miami shootout of FBI infamy.

So, unless you can be polite, fuck you.

[Vargus]

Yeah I've got a HiPoint 995 9mm carbine and it works just fine. So what if it's not pretty?

I want to get one of those as well.

[Eskorbuto]

I want to get one of those as well.

It's an ugly fucker but it'll get the job done.

[ilovechronic]

Thanks for all the input, but maybe I didn't put down my needs too clearly...

1. I do not want to kill the person, just disable him
.

that right there could be the difference between a manslaughter charge and being cleared of all charges.

You dont want to kill the person you want to stop the threat. Your life must be in endagered. Also local laws vary. Canada may be different.

You dont get a handgun and "shoot him in the legs" or "shoot him in the back" you only use lethal force to defend your self when your life is in imediate iminent danger. for example a man breaking into your house an running at you with a knife. or it could also be a loved one or family member in life threatening danger. You NEVER shoot in the legs intentionally. ALWAYS aim for center of mass unless you have identifiied they have body armor. Which there have been some breakins lately in my city where the criminals had armor.

You need to check your laws about self defence and the use of lethal force.

[Cloaked Dagger]

1. I do not want to kill the person, just disable him

This is what you say in court and what your goal should truely be, that you were shooting to stop the threat by disabling the attacker. However the most efficient and only reliable way to disable an attacker is also the most likely to kill him, do not fire a gun at someone unless you are willing to kill them! Also as said do not ever shoot at the legs/arms/etc intentionally as 1) you will likely miss as they are smaller targets that move more, 2) if you hit you will likely not disable your attacker, and 3) this will be used against you in court to say you didn't consider your attacker a real threat. As said when firing at an attacker you always aim for COM(Center of Mass) (i.e. the chest/heart/lung area) and if it's worth shooting once it's worth shooting twice or three times or more. If COM doesn't stop him/he's wearing body armor a follow up shot or two to the head is in order.

[vnorberto]

Yea, a well placed shot. The "well placed" part is hard to do when you're 1/2 asleep and/or pretty hyped up and/or in the dark, and/or you have to shoot on reflex and/or the fucker is 300lbs and has been doing blow like scarface....... There are also more than a few reports of people being hit multiple times with 9mm's and other more powerful handgun calibers and not only staying on their feet but still possing a threat.

Shot placement is Number One when killing or "Stopping" something, however when you can't be certain of surgical shot placement, Using a bigger round and a gun that holds a lot of those bigger rounds is a good idea.

Yea, I see what your saying. practice is underrated as even though an individual who may have a .45 is shit if he doesnt know how to put it to effective use, same with whatever other caliber, as with another indivudal with a .22 lr pistol whos an excellent marksman, he will prevail in the situation. Skill over luck, thats what i meant with that, but as i realize anyone who comes into a situation relying on JUST having a big gun is gonna be sadly missed.




So will a .17 pellet. Your point being?

You are trying to argue that a .25 or .32 is sufficient. That's a personal, subjective assessment. I prefer .380 and up. That said, I used to carry .45 on my personal time and have switched to 9mm due to cost.

The assumptions you make are that under stress one has good shot placement and proper penetration, something not likely in a .25 or even necessarily a .22 from a handgun. Shot placement is paramount, but larger caliber makes it slightly less of an issue and almost makes sure that sufficient penetration is achieved, which is necessary for shot placement to mean anything (bullet to the head not penetrating the skull= worthless). Look at the 1986 Miami shootout of FBI infamy.

So, unless you can be polite, fuck you.

You make valid points and I understand what your saying...my respose to the guy saying the anything under .32 is wimpy, or useless as i saw, is false as your not always gonna have to be fighting against the grain, but I understand if it comes down to that youll be better equipped with something better.

[Space Monkey]

Whatever you get be sure you are proficient with it, that's the most important factor, even the best weapon in the world is useless if you can't operate it efficiently.

Me I have a Walther P38 loaded with Fiocchi 123 grains troncated cone, six rounds in the magazine plus one in the chamber, safety off, hammer down, I keep it in a plastic box under my bed.

I could put one more round in the magazine, but since I always keep it loaded I don't want to strain the spring too much, I need to get another mag, but they go for 35 euros.

It's my birthday next week and I have about 500 euros cash saved up, I don't know what to get yet but I need something better for home protection.

We've had quite a rise in crime lately and I feel outgunned.

Good luck with your choice, and remember practice, practice, practice.

It's better to get a 300 dollar gun and 300 dollars worth of ammo to shoot, than getting a 600 dollar piece and let it get dusty in a safe.

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

Practicing is mandatory. Im not a trained soldier or anything, but I make it a point to practice maneuvering/handling everything I own. When I first started doing practice drills, I was rather awkward and discovered a few minor quirks about my weapons that could have cost me my life if I needed to defend myself. I think the more training you have burned into your muscle memory, the better off you will be under pressure.

[kelsokid18]

I hate bumping week old threads, but a buddy of mine just bought himself a Remington 870 Tactical. It was a surplus trade in from California Department of Prisons. Folding Stock. He bought it for $450. The dorks at the gun store convinced him to buy a box of Winchester 2 1/2" 00 Gauge Buckshot, and a box of Doorbreacher rounds. I told him that the Doorbreachers would be pointless unless the BG goes and hides in the bathroom.

If BG is hiding in my bathroom, I'll just stand in front of the door with the gun and a phone, call the cops, and tell him "The cops are coming, you might want to stay the fuck in there or I'll fucking kill you"

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

$450 is wayy too much to pay for a fucking used 870. Folding stocks are cool though.

If I were locked in the bathroom with the cops coming and you outside, I'd just flush myself down the toilet and escape through a storm drain.

[Freelance Tax Collector]

I told him that the Doorbreachers would be pointless unless the BG goes and hides in the bathroom.

Tell you the truth, unless you care about who's on the other side, slugs are just as good as breacher rounds for shooting locks and hinges.


If I were locked in the bathroom with the cops coming and you outside, I'd just flush myself down the toilet and escape through a storm drain.

Generic Box Of Cookies = a dead goldfish.

[The Savage]

I wouldn't mind getting a coulpe of breaching (and fletchette) shells for my collection and to play around with, don't think i've ever seen them for sale down here.

Nothing wrong with winchester 00 buck either. Not as many pellets as some others but still quite effective.

If BG is hiding in my bathroom, I'll just stand in front of the door with the gun and unplug the phone, and tell him "Mate, I keep the bottles of acid in the cupboard on the lower left, Be a sport and empty them into the bath tub ready"

Extra points if you actually do keep 20Lt+ of acid in your bathroom :D .

[kelsokid18]

I wouldn't mind getting a coulpe of breaching (and fletchette) shells for my collection and to play around with, don't think i've ever seen them for sale down here.

What would make you a real badass, is if you can find some Frag 12 rounds.

[The Savage]

nah, plus explosive shit is hard to find and typically pretty damn expensive, the collection i have now did at one stage have a live warhead for a 40mm bofuss round, however it was traded years ago.

[aussiedude]

shotty, 12 gauge, size 4 shot, under over or side by side... if you need more than two shots... u shouldn't have a gun

in terms of non - shottyness, use hollowpoints, the last thing you want is to start hitting people in other rooms / apartments / etc... at least when a hollowpint hits something it'll start to break up, as opposed to hitting random people who probably have some really bad allergy to high speed lead

[5.56 SS109]

shotty, 12 gauge, size 4 shot, under over or side by side... if you need more than two shots... u shouldn't have a gun

in terms of non - shottyness, use hollowpoints, the last thing you want is to start hitting people in other rooms / apartments / etc... at least when a hollowpint hits something it'll start to break up, as opposed to hitting random people who probably have some really bad allergy to high speed lead

No.

[aussiedude]

No.

yes

at least coming from an aussie perspective whereby you need a licence to get guns, and well certain things are not permitted for the average punter, perhaps with good reason. if you need more than two shots or 6 for a revolver well then your pretty fucking paranoid and shouldn't have guns readily accessible

a basic under-over or side-by-side is more than enough

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

yes

at least coming from an aussie perspective whereby you need a licence to get guns, and well certain things are not permitted for the average punter, perhaps with good reason. if you need more than two shots or 6 for a revolver well then your pretty fucking paranoid and shouldn't have guns readily accessible

a basic under-over or side-by-side is more than enough

Fuck that.

For the cost of a good coach gun($300-$600usd), a guy could buy a comparatively solid pump shotgun which holds literally 3-4 times the ammo. Pound for pound, they're a more effective weapon. You're just thinking a double barrel is better because you've been exposed to anti-gun brainwashing your whole life and you don't have access to anything better.

[aussiedude]

Fuck that.

For the cost of a good coach gun($300-$600usd), a guy could buy a comparatively solid pump shotgun which holds literally 3-4 times the ammo. Pound for pound, they're a more effective weapon. You're just thinking a double barrel is better because you've been exposed to anti-gun brainwashing your whole life and you don't have access to anything better.

i've been exposed to the majority of my life being lived on a farm and growing up around firearms, personally i see both the laws in '96 as being retarded and an over reaction. however, there is such a thing as excessive.

if you need 3-4 times the ammo, your fucking blind and probably shouldn't be shooting anything more than your load over pics of pump actions, quite a fitting metaphore really for obvious reasons.

we actually do have the licencing mechanisms in in australia to purchase pump actions, thankfully there is not such a need to shoot anyone to such as an extent as may be required in the USA, in fact shooting a dead in most cases of where they break and enter, it would be called excessive self defense and well... manslaughter

[5.56 SS109]

What if it's a typical three man home invasion?

Best case scenario is you expend 100% of your ammunition to eliminate two-thirds of the threat.

You gonna tell the other guy to wait for you to reload?


Get real.

Also.

Number 4 shot?

Are you fucking kidding?

[aussiedude]

Thanks for all the input, but maybe I didn't put down my needs too clearly...

1. I do not want to kill the person, just disable him


What if it's a typical three man home invasion?

Best case scenario is you expend 100% of your ammunition to eliminate two-thirds of the threat.

You gonna tell the other guy to wait for you to reload?


Get real.

Also.

Number 4 shot?

Are you fucking kidding?



yeh again murder vs manslaughter, and the whole disabling thing,

fortunately australia does not yet have the issue of home invasions being made up of 3 guys and really, how many people will have the ability to pump 3 rounds into 3 people without one of them first shooting at you after your first shot.. get real mate, especially seeing as the voxelite guy said that he wouldn't be practicing all that often

[5.56 SS109]

Tactics, mindset, and better gear.

That's how.


You, however, have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about.

You're just jealous because you took the government's cock right up your ass when they decided to take away your REAL guns and leave you with a bunch of warm and fuzzy "sporting" guns.

Really, why in the fuck would you just flat out recommend that people should load their home defense firearms with birdshot? Would you shoot a deer with birdshot and expect it to be effective?


And, you obviously have no clue about how hollow points work.


Do some research before you post.


Thanks.

[Snoopy]

http://www.theliechtys.com/images/P1010021.JPG

Instead of home protection, a 2 mile radius around your home is a far safer solution. Blast anyone who enters it.

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

yeh again murder vs manslaughter, and the whole disabling thing,

fortunately australia does not yet have the issue of home invasions being made up of 3 guys and really, how many people will have the ability to pump 3 rounds into 3 people without one of them first shooting at you after your first shot.. get real mate, especially seeing as the voxelite guy said that he wouldn't be practicing all that often


Having a weapon ready to rock n' roll in case of an emergency is about preparation. Why not have the 3-6 extra shells on board just in case? You probably won't even need more than one, if that.

If you had a pump which could hold 6+1 rounds would you really only keep it loaded with 2? The handling difference is negligible. Instead of having the weight tied up in another barrel, you have a slide mechanism and a place to hold more ammo if you need it. It's a superior design, and it's the same price as a double barrel if not cheaper. If pumps were accessible and as unrestricted to you, Im sure you would have one in place of your double barrel.

[aussiedude]

Tactics, mindset, and better gear.

That's how.


You, however, have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about.

You're just jealous because you took the government's cock right up your ass when they decided to take away your REAL guns and leave you with a bunch of warm and fuzzy "sporting" guns.

Really, why in the fuck would you just flat out recommend that people should load their home defense firearms with birdshot? Would you shoot a deer with birdshot and expect it to be effective?


And, you obviously have no clue about how hollow points work.


Do some research before you post.


Thanks.


sit infront of a jury and explain how you came to think that it was not excessive to use a gun brought for the simple purpose of killing anyone who entered your house / apartmen / flat

at least with a hunting weapon you have a bit of legal defense to say "hey, i didnt buy this gun to kill people, i bought it to do some sports shooting, i felt threatened enough to use it during this unfortunant set of circumstances"


a number 4 is easily accessible and pretty cheap, which is good considering that theres no plan on using it too often, at most, in a close range situation where it should be fine

hollow points, hit (and penetrate) and expand. hopefully the expansion will occur enough to prevent it going straight into your neighbours face at a pretty good rate of fps, if it simply just breaks down enough to reduce its effectiveness in an accidental situation then its always going to look better in court than a round intended at going through whatever its shot at

using your nice ideas why not just buy a fucking combat shotgun, such as the AA-12 shotgun which featured on future weapons

[aussiedude]

Having a weapon ready to rock n' roll in case of an emergency is about preparation. Why not have the 3-6 extra shells on board just in case? You probably won't even need more than one, if that.

If you had a pump which could hold 6+1 rounds would you really only keep it loaded with 2? The handling difference is negligible. Instead of having the weight tied up in another barrel, you have a slide mechanism and a place to hold more ammo if you need it. It's a superior design, and it's the same price as a double barrel if not cheaper. If pumps were accessible and as unrestricted to you, Im sure you would have one in place of your double barrel.

getting pump actions and semi-autos are possibe, just annoying to justify, and well the fact that a lot of accidents occur with semi autos and pump actions is enough grounds to reason that having 2 barrels and 2 shots means that there is less of a chance of a person who is not using the gun all that often doining themselves a great deal of damage

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

getting pump actions and semi-autos are possibe, just annoying to justify, and well the fact that a lot of accidents occur with semi autos and pump actions is enough grounds to reason that having 2 barrels and 2 shots means that there is less of a chance of a person who is not using the gun all that often doining themselves a great deal of damage


You're defending your position, and I find that admirable. Although your weapons situation sucks thanks to your government and a few kill rampages, I think you're doing alright for yourself considering. A pump is logically the more practical choice for this application, but a double barrel is better than no gun at all. Good luck with those 2 rounds of #4 birdshot if you're ever forced to use them.

[aussiedude]

You're defending your position, and I find that admirable. Although your weapons situation sucks thanks to your government and a few kill rampages, I think you're doing alright for yourself considering. A pump is logically the more practical choice for this application, but a double barrel is better than no gun at all. Good luck with those 2 rounds of #4 birdshot if you're ever forced to use them.

yeh the feeling resonates fairly strongly regarding the laws amongst many, but hey why deal with a people being fucked in the head and spend money in that area, when you can just force sensible people to give up their guns

i think now's the time to pull out the old, ain't the size its what you do with it cliche right about now lol... but still each to his own, and whatever you feel will do the job is the best to use

[The Savage]

No.

This^

[5.56 SS109]

using your nice ideas why not just buy a fucking combat shotgun, such as the AA-12 shotgun which featured on future weapons

Well, in America, there is a good chance you'll never even enter a courtroom.

Most free states recognize that if a bad guy comes into your house, you shoot him.

End of story, case closed.

It's just common sense that thugs who break into your house at 2 AM aren't there to sell you Girl Scout cookies, they are there to do you harm.

So you act accordingly.


Hell, why do you think we have concealed carry?

Do you actually think there is a "sporting purposes" justification on a concealed carry application?

No, it's all about personal defense, that why most people buy guns, and judges know that, and juries know that.

There is no need to buy a politically correct firearm to defend yourself, if you are justified in your actions it doesn't matter what you did.


And, since this thread reeks of "sporting purposes", let me "Practical" it up :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/Hydrashock/DSCN0826.jpg

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/264/zombierepellant.jpg

And, since this thread reeks of "sporting purposes", let me "Practical" it up :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/Hydrashock/DSCN0826.jpg


:thumbsup:

I'll trade you the Mini for the AK. :D

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/264/zombierepellant.jpg

[blue_monday]

where'd you get the white stock and forend? or is it just painted?

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

where'd you get the white stock and forend? or is it just painted?

It's just Krylon Fusion over a fugly factory camo job. It actually holds up quite well if you do your prep work. But it shows grime very readily, as white things do. Im intending on replacing it with a pistol gripped stock.

[5.56 SS109]

:thumbsup:

I'll trade you the Mini for the AK. :D

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/264/zombierepellant.jpg

I already have a Mini, lol.

You got a neat setup on yours though.

Who makes the folder?

[aussiedude]

Well, in America, there is a good chance you'll never even enter a courtroom.

Most free states recognize that if a bad guy comes into your house, you shoot him.

End of story, case closed.

It's just common sense that thugs who break into your house at 2 AM aren't there to sell you Girl Scout cookies, they are there to do you harm.

So you act accordingly.


Hell, why do you think we have concealed carry?

Do you actually think there is a "sporting purposes" justification on a concealed carry application?

No, it's all about personal defense, that why most people buy guns, and judges know that, and juries know that.

There is no need to buy a politically correct firearm to defend yourself, if you are justified in your actions it doesn't matter what you did.


And, since this thread reeks of "sporting purposes", let me "Practical" it up :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/Hydrashock/DSCN0826.jpg

well i guess im just lucky to live in australia, and well i probably won't end up in such a situation.... unless i become a cop of course

[5.56 SS109]

:facepalm:

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

I already have a Mini, lol.

You got a neat setup on yours though.

Who makes the folder?

Choate.

It's been a good little rifle. I'd rather have an AK style rifle though.

[The Savage]

well i guess im just lucky to live in australia, and well i probably won't end up in such a situation.... unless i become a cop of course

:facepalm: :head_wall:

You probably won't get into a car crash either, why not cut the seatbelts and air bags out of your car?

[samguy700]

http://www.theliechtys.com/images/P1010021.JPG

Instead of home protection, a 2 mile radius around your home is a far safer solution. Blast anyone who enters it.




why does that thing always have a blast deflectoror whatever the fuck it is but never a silencer
also what is it 2m long?

[The Savage]

It's that long because you need a very long barrel to get good ballistics from the .50BMG round because it burns massive amounts (230+gr) of slow burning powder. The thing on the end of the barrel is called a Muzzle Break and it reduces recoil (At the cost of greatly increasing the sound). You don't see suppressors on them because 1) Yanks need a tax stamp and premission to own one and 2) you would be adding to the weight and length of an already Very heavy (40lbs+ IIRC) and long weapon.

BTW unless i'm mistaken the rifle in the pic is an AR-50, It's a single shot and was one of the cheapest .50's out there when i was shopping for one.

[Gun Lover]

why does that thing always have a blast deflectoror whatever the fuck it is but never a silencer
also what is it 2m long?

A sub sonic .50 BMG round would defeat the rifle's purpose by destroying the velocity it creates to become so powerful. Not to mention if you think it's long now, try adding another 3 feet for an effective silencer. Oh, and the "blast deflector" is actually a muzzle brake, used to lessen recoil.


OP: If you want plain, reliable protection, get a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870. But if you want to have some fun and a conversation piece, I suggest a Kel-Tec Sub 2000:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/kel_tec/kel_su2000.jpg
It uses cheap, reliable Glock magazines, and it folds in half with the press of a button :D

[5.56 SS109]

It's that long because you need a very long barrel to get good ballistics from the .50BMG round because it burns massive amounts (230+gr) of slow burning powder. The thing on the end of the barrel is called a Muzzle Break and it reduces recoil (At the cost of greatly increasing the sound). You don't see suppressors on them because 1) Yanks need a tax stamp and premission to own one and 2) you would be adding to the weight and length of an already Very heavy (40lbs+ IIRC) and long weapon.

BTW unless i'm mistaken the rifle in the pic is an AR-50, It's a single shot and was one of the cheapest .50's out there when i was shopping for one.

I always thought it was magazine fed (mainly because the AR-30 is mag fed), but you're right, it's a single shot.

Doesn't matter though, because if a .50 BMG round passes within 3 feet of your body, it'll rip off all of your skin.

:p

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

Why suppress a 50 cal?

Bullet: 900 meters/second

Speed of sound: ~340 meters/second

At 2000 meters, the target would have already been dead for 4 seconds before the source of the shot is even heard. By the time you heard the bullet whizzing your wa, you wouldn't even have time to say "Oh Shi-"

[5.56 SS109]

Vast reduction in recoil and dust signature.

[aussiedude]

:facepalm: :head_wall:

You probably won't get into a car crash either, why not cut the seatbelts and air bags out of your car?

so basically i should be armed with a plethora of guns which can and will kill people in the unlikly event that someone breaks into my house while im there

using the same reasoning i should drive a tank because if i'm in an accident, and using your reasoning i will be every second week, so i need to be excessively protected

[5.56 SS109]

so basically i should be armed with a plethora of guns which can and will kill people in the unlikly event that someone breaks into my house while im there

using the same reasoning i should drive a tank because if i'm in an accident, and using your reasoning i will be every second week, so i need to be excessively protected

Are you fucking retarded?

[aussiedude]

Are you fucking retarded?

no i just don't see the point in being excessive, sometimes people need it to be blatantly obvious before they realise

[5.56 SS109]

Wow.

Jealous people sure do say some stupid shit.

[aussiedude]

Wow.

Jealous people sure do say some stupid shit.

jealous of higher rates of murder, higher gun accident rates, higher rates of crime in general....? (oh and even after the cunthead system of licencing came into effect back in 1996, the murder rate han't changed)

when shit fucks up: jealous of worse prisons, worse courts, worse criminal justice system in general....?

hmmm, nah im not jealous, if i actually wanted a pump action - that could be done quite easily, its literally the next tier of firearm licencing, and having links to primary production, the licence would not cost anything

the thing is that i don't see the need for it, i don't live in a ghetto or in fear

[The Savage]

I'm thinking troll, no one is that dumb.

...are they?


using the same reasoning i should drive a tank because if i'm in an accident, and using your reasoning i will be every second week, so i need to be excessively protected

ah-hm

Originally Posted by The Savage
You probably wont get into a car crash either, why not cut the seatbelts and air bags out of your car?

I can't be bothered replying to your other bullshit.

[5.56 SS109]

jealous of higher rates of murder, higher gun accident rates, higher rates of crime in general....? (oh and even after the cunthead system of licencing came into effect back in 1996, the murder rate han't changed)

when shit fucks up: jealous of worse prisons, worse courts, worse criminal justice system in general....?

hmmm, nah im not jealous, if i actually wanted a pump action - that could be done quite easily, its literally the next tier of firearm licencing, and having links to primary production, the licence would not cost anything

the thing is that i don't see the need for it, i don't live in a ghetto or in fear


Boo-hoo.

You just have sand in your vagina over the fact that law abiding citizens in the US can enjoy firearm related hobbies to the fullest, while your government treats you like a criminal.


And, I agree with The Savage (who is from Australia, BTW) that you either have a mental disorder that inhibits your ability to face facts, or that you are a troll.

My theory is that it is a mixture of both.

Have fun with your "sporting piece".

Fucking Fudd.

[aussiedude]

I'm thinking troll, no one is that dumb.

...are they?



ah-hm



I can't be bothered replying to your other bullshit.

Boo-hoo.

You just have sand in your vagina over the fact that law abiding citizens in the US can enjoy firearm related hobbies to the fullest, while your government treats you like a criminal.


And, I agree with The Savage (who is from Australia, BTW) that you either have a mental disorder that inhibits your ability to face facts, or that you are a troll.

My theory is that it is a mixture of both.

Have fun with your "sporting piece".

Fucking Fudd.



firstly, the majority of australians who came to australia were criminals, but thats beside the point

you don't need need the most powerful weapons to protect yourself,

any law-abiding aussies who want to enjoy gun related hobbies can, theres just checks and balances to make sure some people don't

oh and the whole probably thing is retarded, because fuck, you probably wont be around when some cunt breaks into your fucking house

[5.56 SS109]

firstly, the majority of australians who came to australia were criminals, but thats beside the point

you don't need need the most powerful weapons to protect yourself,

any law-abiding aussies who want to enjoy gun related hobbies can, theres just checks and balances to make sure some people don't

oh and the whole probably thing is retarded, because fuck, you probably wont be around when some cunt breaks into your fucking house

Yet you use a fucking 12 gauge.

Which is has more foot pounds of energy than my AK's 7.62x39 and GLOCK's 9x19 combined.


And, checks and balances don't work.

Why?

Because criminals don't get guns through legal means to begin with.

So any paperwork or red tape that applies to law abiding citizens doesn't matter worth a damn to criminals.

Law abiding citizens aren't a threat to anyone, no matter what gun they own.

Violent criminals are a threat to everyone, no matter what gun they own.

So what does it matter to anyone what I, a law abiding citizen, owns?

I'm not the threat.

[aussiedude]

Yet you use a fucking 12 gauge.

Which is has more foot pounds of energy than my AK's 7.62x39 and GLOCK's 9x19 combined.


And, checks and balances don't work.

Why?

Because criminals don't get guns through legal means to begin with.

So any paperwork or red tape that applies to law abiding citizens doesn't matter worth a damn to criminals.

Law abiding citizens aren't a threat to anyone, no matter what gun they own.

Violent criminals are a threat to everyone, no matter what gun they own.

So what does it matter to anyone what I, a law abiding citizen, owns?

I'm not the threat.


12 gauge vs 10 gauge? 2 gauge?.... cop that one mate

checks and balances are helpful if only to ensure that people have to have a little bit of previous knowledge about guns and gun safety (mandatory testing prior to getting a gun licence)

all criminals were law abiding citizens at one point, until something happens and oh shit now i've pulled a columbine, virginia tech, hoddle street, port arthur, school in germany, school in utah, etc

[AnalHerpes]

12 gauge vs 10 gauge? 2 gauge?.... cop that one mate

checks and balances are helpful if only to ensure that people have to have a little bit of previous knowledge about guns and gun safety (mandatory testing prior to getting a gun licence)

all criminals were law abiding citizens at one point, until something happens and oh shit now i've pulled a columbine, virginia tech, hoddle street, port arthur, school in germany, school in utah, etc

Public massacres are a statistically insignificant source of murders, they just receive a lot of media attention. Not saying that they aren't a problem, far from it, these killing sprees are an indicator that something is wrong with society, it would be more effective to take care of the source of the problem than the symptoms.

Aside from that, the term "checks and balances" is meant for the government, not the people. In US, we work on the grounds that any free man is to be trusted until proven otherwise (which we've already violated repeatedly). If a man cannot be trusted with a AR-15 or even a pump shotgun, he should not be trusted with a side by side shotgun either and probably not trusted to be on the streets. Punish the person if he has committed the crime, not on the speculation that he "might".

[aussiedude]

Public massacres are a statistically insignificant source of murders, they just receive a lot of media attention. Not saying that they aren't a problem, far from it, these killing sprees are an indicator that something is wrong with society, it would be more effective to take care of the source of the problem than the symptoms.

Aside from that, the term "checks and balances" is meant for the government, not the people. In US, we work on the grounds that any free man is to be trusted until proven otherwise (which we've already violated repeatedly). If a man cannot be trusted with a AR-15 or even a pump shotgun, he should not be trusted with a side by side shotgun either and probably not trusted to be on the streets. Punish the person if he has committed the crime, not on the speculation that he "might".

yeh killing sprees are a problem with society, hence why you shouldn't allow just anyone in society to do what they feel like doing until shit hits the fan, it's irresponsible in the least... and really half of the problem is the ability to get firearms, legally or otherwise, the other problem is the person but it is typically easier to stop shooting people if they don't have anything to shoot with


checks and balances, cbf changing from what the other dude said in the first place

speculation that he might..... umm ever heard of conspiricy to commit an offence? including the not too long ago example of barack obama and the redneck methheads who probably couldn't have hit the toilet if they went for a piss, control orders regarding suspected terrorists? unsuitability to own or acquire a firearm based on an intervention order?

[DJ Meaty Cheeks]

The thing that people seem to miss in all these arguements about crime is that criminal behavior is very complex. Weather one will exhibit criminal behavior depends on the vagaries of individual desire, legal systems, political systems, social pressures, economic pressures, class standing, geographical location, and just plain dumb luck. Someone can just as easily act criminal in one situation and law abiding in another.

Its one thing to be prepared to defend your home with firepower, and another thing to think that just because your city has felons & crackheads in it then they're all coming after you.

[ilovechronic]

so basically i should be armed with a plethora of guns which can and will kill people in the unlikly event that someone breaks into my house while im there

using the same reasoning i should drive a tank because if i'm in an accident, and using your reasoning i will be every second week, so i need to be excessively protected
Um you can kill someone in a automobile. I am prettty sure there are more automobile related fatalities than firearm related fatalities but I may be wrong.

[reggie_love]

the thing is that i don't see the need for it, i don't live in a ghetto or in fear
I don't live in a ghetto or in fear either. I'd just rather not be disarmed or deprived of my pastime because it makes certain people uncomfortable.

[The Savage]

Also worth taking into account when talking about how we don't have to worry because we have police, is that some people might live in places where police and ambulance repsonce time is over an hour.

And why do you seem to think it's only B&E's people are worried about? There are many reasons that one or more persons might end up at your house with the intent on doing you harm, Are these common events? No. But they sure as shit do happen!

I actually wish you'd experiance something like that, because until you do, you're probably going to keep on experiancing diareah of the mouth when it comes to this subject.

[AnalHerpes]

yeh killing sprees are a problem with society, hence why you shouldn't allow just anyone in society to do what they feel like doing until shit hits the fan, it's irresponsible in the least... and really half of the problem is the ability to get firearms, legally or otherwise, the other problem is the person but it is typically easier to stop shooting people if they don't have anything to shoot with


checks and balances, cbf changing from what the other dude said in the first place

speculation that he might..... umm ever heard of conspiricy to commit an offence? including the not too long ago example of barack obama and the redneck methheads who probably couldn't have hit the toilet if they went for a piss, control orders regarding suspected terrorists? unsuitability to own or acquire a firearm based on an intervention order?

I know, I just said that it is a problem with society, but wouldn't it be better to remove the desire to kill random people rather than trying to ineffectually stop the killing? There was a time when people had access to the same weapons (with less regulation) and people didn't randomly kill each other. If people don't have access to guns, a guy with a car could just run over a crowd of people then start throwing molotov cocktails at people.

Also, I obviously meant unsubstantiated speculation, which seems to be the case when the average person cannot be trusted with certain types of guns.

[aussiedude]

The thing that people seem to miss in all these arguements about crime is that criminal behavior is very complex. Weather one will exhibit criminal behavior depends on the vagaries of individual desire, legal systems, political systems, social pressures, economic pressures, class standing, geographical location, and just plain dumb luck. Someone can just as easily act criminal in one situation and law abiding in another.

Its one thing to be prepared to defend your home with firepower, and another thing to think that just because your city has felons & crackheads in it then they're all coming after you.

thank fuck for some rationality

Um you can kill someone in a automobile. I am prettty sure there are more automobile related fatalities than firearm related fatalities but I may be wrong.

you missed the point and obviously most of my past posts

I don't live in a ghetto or in fear either. I'd just rather not be disarmed or deprived of my pastime because it makes certain people uncomfortable.

as above

Also worth taking into account when talking about how we don't have to worry because we have police, is that some people might live in places where police and ambulance repsonce time is over an hour.

And why do you seem to think it's only B&E's people are worried about? There are many reasons that one or more persons might end up at your house with the intent on doing you harm, Are these common events? No. But they sure as shit do happen!

I actually wish you'd experiance something like that, because until you do, you're probably going to keep on experiancing diareah of the mouth when it comes to this subject.

so using your reasoning, people should be armed wherever they go because there is a chance that someone has intent of hurting you outside of your house? spree killings are rare but they sure as shit happen, so yeh lets get everyone carrying around guns all the time, i mean fuck its not like something BAD will happen now is it? something unintentional out of a misunderstanding.

i'm not saying don't defend yourself, and i haven't in this entire thread, i've just said there isn't a point in going overboard out of paranoia when your (OP, no offence by the way) inexperienced with guns to the point where you need advice off zoklet, and it is foreseeable that you may cause unintentional damage to yourself or others

I know, I just said that it is a problem with society, but wouldn't it be better to remove the desire to kill random people rather than trying to ineffectually stop the killing? There was a time when people had access to the same weapons (with less regulation) and people didn't randomly kill each other. If people don't have access to guns, a guy with a car could just run over a crowd of people then start throwing molotov cocktails at people.

Also, I obviously meant unsubstantiated speculation, which seems to be the case when the average person cannot be trusted with certain types of guns.

yeh there was also a time when the middle east didn't hate america, and when america wasn't the butt of most jokes when talking about a society, but asides from that

good luck removing the urge to kill, its always been present in society, in japan a guy crashed his truck into pedestrians and started to stab away so yeh, people could, and probably will just use different means of killing, its probably just a good idea to do some harm minimisation so that instead of many people getting killed when someone goes on a rampage with guns, it's lessened somewhat

[The Savage]

so using your reasoning, people should be armed wherever they go because there is a chance that someone has intent of hurting you outside of your house? spree killings are rare but they sure as shit happen, so yeh lets get everyone carrying around guns all the time, i mean fuck its not like something BAD will happen now is it? something unintentional out of a misunderstanding.

i'm not saying don't defend yourself, and i haven't in this entire thread, i've just said there isn't a point in going overboard out of paranoia when your (OP, no offence by the way) inexperienced with guns to the point where you need advice off zoklet, and it is foreseeable that you may cause unintentional damage to yourself or others

Yes, I DO think people should be allowed to carry in public. What happens when you introduce 100 armed civilians in a port aurther like situation? I'm betting you'd see a good deal less than 35 bodies. And no, if you would care to RESEARCH it, Very little bad comes from honest people carrying guns, If anything at all it REDUCES the frequencies of some crimes.

Having a rifle or pistol with a capacity of more than 2 - 10 rounds is NOT overkill nor is it paranoia. Just because you have 15 or 30 rounds Doesn't mean you're expecting a hord of chainsaw weilding crackheads to break down your door nor does it mean you're just waiting for the opitunity to go nuts and kill every fucker. And believe it or fucking not, Sporting shooters DO need full magazines capacities!

Using your reasoning, no one should have anymore than a single shot, fuck why not make it a longbow? After all, if you need more than one shot then you shouldn't have it anyway, right? and shit, it's isn't like people get ENJOYMENT from these weapons, is it? so fuck it, lets just ban them.

Make a new account and start over or GTFO

[5.56 SS109]

thank fuck for some rationality



you missed the point and obviously most of my past posts



as above



so using your reasoning, people should be armed wherever they go because there is a chance that someone has intent of hurting you outside of your house? spree killings are rare but they sure as shit happen, so yeh lets get everyone carrying around guns all the time, i mean fuck its not like something BAD will happen now is it? something unintentional out of a misunderstanding.

i'm not saying don't defend yourself, and i haven't in this entire thread, i've just said there isn't a point in going overboard out of paranoia when your (OP, no offence by the way) inexperienced with guns to the point where you need advice off zoklet, and it is foreseeable that you may cause unintentional damage to yourself or others



yeh there was also a time when the middle east didn't hate america, and when america wasn't the butt of most jokes when talking about a society, but asides from that

good luck removing the urge to kill, its always been present in society, in japan a guy crashed his truck into pedestrians and started to stab away so yeh, people could, and probably will just use different means of killing, its probably just a good idea to do some harm minimisation so that instead of many people getting killed when someone goes on a rampage with guns, it's lessened somewhat


You're obviously some kind of irrational extremist with an agenda to push.

Please do it in some other forum.

Thank you.

[samguy700]

Why suppress a 50 cal?

Bullet: 900 meters/second

Speed of sound: ~340 meters/second

At 2000 meters, the target would have already been dead for 4 seconds before the source of the shot is even heard. By the time you heard the bullet whizzing your wa, you wouldn't even have time to say "Oh Shi-"

normaly poeple you need to kill over 2 miles away travel in groups plus if you are 2 miles away chances are you dont want to be caught a big bang gives away or goes someway to giving away your location




to the guy who thinks a 50 cal within 3 feet of you rips the skin off LOL reminds me of shoot em up when the guy shoots the guy in the stomach and then the whole of the guys stomach blows out as if 100 shotguns sincronized their fire into his stomach

[aussiedude]

Yes, I DO think people should be allowed to carry in public. What happens when you introduce 100 armed civilians in a port aurther like situation? I'm betting you'd see a good deal less than 35 bodies. And no, if you would care to RESEARCH it, Very little bad comes from honest people carrying guns, If anything at all it REDUCES the frequencies of some crimes.

Having a rifle or pistol with a capacity of more than 2 - 10 rounds is NOT overkill nor is it paranoia. Just because you have 15 or 30 rounds Doesn't mean you're expecting a hord of chainsaw weilding crackheads to break down your door nor does it mean you're just waiting for the opitunity to go nuts and kill every fucker. And believe it or fucking not, Sporting shooters DO need full magazines capacities!

Using your reasoning, no one should have anymore than a single shot, fuck why not make it a longbow? After all, if you need more than one shot then you shouldn't have it anyway, right? and shit, it's isn't like people get ENJOYMENT from these weapons, is it? so fuck it, lets just ban them.

Make a new account and start over or GTFO

2 shots really, one for a warning, one one to defend yourself

100 armed people in an area. one person opens fire, another starts to shoot at them, person three has no idea who shot first, neither does person 4 - 100, and statistically incidents in public are rare so it may not happen in the first place, and home invasions are going to be more frequent because hey there isnt 100 armed people in one house at 3am in the morning so its a softer target, lol decreasing some crimes will lead to an increase in others or a simple dispersal of crimes into other areas

dude this has never been about banning firearms, just that you don't need to go rambo for the dominant purpose of defending your home... i don't suppose you ever read any of my first posts before people jumped to the retarded conclusion that i have some stupid agenda

You're obviously some kind of irrational extremist with an agenda to push.

Please do it in some other forum.

Thank you.

You're obviously some kind of irrational extremist with an agenda to push.

since when have i ever been opposed to gun ownership or restrictions on ownership?

i've only said that i don't believe that there is a reason to have a pump action for defending yourself at home, when a) your inexperienced with firearms, b) there is more chance that you won't be home when someone breaks in in the first place, and c) that coming from an australian example its easier to get an U/O / SS shotgun

[LavaRed]

2 shots really, one for a warning, one one to defend yourself

100 armed people in an area. one person opens fire, another starts to shoot at them, person three has no idea who shot first, neither does person 4 - 100, and statistically incidents in public are rare so it may not happen in the first place, and home invasions are going to be more frequent because hey there isnt 100 armed people in one house at 3am in the morning so its a softer target, lol decreasing some crimes will lead to an increase in others or a simple dispersal of crimes into other areas

dude this has never been about banning firearms, just that you don't need to go rambo for the dominant purpose of defending your home... i don't suppose you ever read any of my first posts before people jumped to the retarded conclusion that i have some stupid agenda



You're obviously some kind of irrational extremist with an agenda to push.

since when have i ever been opposed to gun ownership or restrictions on ownership?

i've only said that i don't believe that there is a reason to have a pump action for defending yourself at home, when a) your inexperienced with firearms, b) there is more chance that you won't be home when someone breaks in in the first place, and c) that coming from an australian example its easier to get an U/O / SS shotgun


I don't think that people should have a reason to be allowed to own a gun. In the same way that people need not provide a reason to get piercings or wear disgusting clothes, however unsightly and socially harmful that may be.

You see, when you need to provide reason for the ownership of anything, you have effectively entered a communist system, whereby "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities".

[ScourgeOfHumanity]

springfield xd. 9mm is a good round for just about anything. not too much kick and still leathal. a .45 might do more damage and yeah you'll be under stress but so will the guy being shot at. two rounds to the torso will bring down most people. and with a 19 round mag capacity you can really light someone the fuck up in case they are super burgler and they can take nine mils like they're airsoft bbs.

[aussiedude]

I don't think that people should have a reason to be allowed to own a gun. In the same way that people need not provide a reason to get piercings or wear disgusting clothes, however unsightly and socially harmful that may be.

You see, when you need to provide reason for the ownership of anything, you have effectively entered a communist system, whereby "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities".

piercings and clothing can't really do any damage, and in all reality you can't just go and buy anything you want, hence the black market, so i'm pretty sure even in the USA there are restrictions on what you can and can't legally buy, as well as there being processes in which to buy guns.

to be honest i wouldn't say that it's a communist-like system, rather it's just a means of preventing people who aren't actually interested in firearms, for legitimate reasons, from getting a bunch and leaving them around the house in the name of self-defense, or having guns which they don't know how to use safely.

[5.56 SS109]

normaly poeple you need to kill over 2 miles away travel in groups plus if you are 2 miles away chances are you dont want to be caught a big bang gives away or goes someway to giving away your location




to the guy who thinks a 50 cal within 3 feet of you rips the skin off LOL reminds me of shoot em up when the guy shoots the guy in the stomach and then the whole of the guys stomach blows out as if 100 shotguns sincronized their fire into his stomach

I said that as a joke, lol.

[5.56 SS109]

2 shots really, one for a warning, one one to defend yourself



i've only said that i don't believe that there is a reason to have a pump action for defending yourself at home, when a) your inexperienced with firearms, b) there is more chance that you won't be home when someone breaks in in the first place, and c) that coming from an australian example its easier to get an U/O / SS shotgun

Ok, first, warning shots are complete bullshit, stop watching TV for firearm advice.

Also, a double barrel is more dangerous and complicated than a pump action.

The pump shotgun can be safely stored with a full magazine and an empty chamber.

All that's needed to bring a pump shotgun into action is racking it.

No releasing the barrels and fumbling through a pile of shells, trying to orient them into the barrel the right way, then maybe fiddling with a tiny safety lever or trying to thumb a hammer.


It's not about firepower, it's about simplicity. That's why I like larger magazines on my firearms.

It's not so I can the gun shoot more, it's so I can manipulate the gun less.


Answer me this, if a pump shotgun only held 2 rounds, would you still feel it is too "rambo"?

Because, if by some fucked up law, someone was limited to a shotgun that only held two shots, I would still choose and recommend the pump action.

[aussiedude]

Ok, first, warning shots are complete bullshit, stop watching TV for firearm advice.

Also, a double barrel is more dangerous and complicated than a pump action.

The pump shotgun can be safely stored with a full magazine and an empty chamber.

All that's needed to bring a pump shotgun into action is racking it.

No releasing the barrels and fumbling through a pile of shells, trying to orient them into the barrel the right way, then maybe fiddling with a tiny safety lever or trying to thumb a hammer.


It's not about firepower, it's about simplicity. That's why I like larger magazines on my firearms.

It's not so I can the gun shoot more, it's so I can manipulate the gun less.


Answer me this, if a pump shotgun only held 2 rounds, would you still feel it is too "rambo"?

Because, if by some fucked up law, someone was limited to a shotgun that only held two shots, I would still choose and recommend the pump action.

i never said which shot went first... to roughly quote chopper; "the living man controls the court room"

look you can say what you want, but i'm reasonably confident in saying that more people have been injured or killed by accident when it comes to pump actions as opposed to double barrel (per capita), and i'm certain that it is against the law to have a gun stored with ammunition (i.e not in seperately locked parts of a gun safe), let alone loaded, they must be kept seperate, nice common sense sorta safety law... actually im pretty sure that there is no such thing as a gun that is safe when it is left loaded and unattended

lol a pump action with 2 shots... it would be completely retarded and a lot more cumbersome to use than a double barrel... and arguably more rambo because its purpose is for looks rather than use

[5.56 SS109]

i never said which shot went first... to roughly quote chopper; "the living man controls the court room"

look you can say what you want, but i'm reasonably confident in saying that more people have been injured or killed by accident when it comes to pump actions as opposed to double barrel (per capita), and i'm certain that it is against the law to have a gun stored with ammunition (i.e not in seperately locked parts of a gun safe), let alone loaded, they must be kept seperate, nice common sense sorta safety law... actually im pretty sure that there is no such thing as a gun that is safe when it is left loaded and unattended

lol a pump action with 2 shots... it would be completely retarded and a lot more cumbersome to use than a double barrel... and arguably more rambo because its purpose is for looks rather than use


Troll Status: CONFIRMED

[aussiedude]

Troll Status: CONFIRMED

so a troll is anyone who has a different point of view, and who knows a reasonable bit of gun safety and the law in their country, and will offer an opinion on an issue as such?

if you want to keep a loaded gun somewhere that isn't in your immediate posession, it poses a risk to all those who may come near it, because there are far too many people who don't know shit about gun safety who will pick up a gun and start fucking around with it, even more so if they can re-enact something seen in a movie, i.e a pump-action shotty

oh and per capita (or other point of comparison) is a relevant term of reference whenever mentioning statistics

[5.56 SS109]

Well, first off, the original poster in not from Australia so anything you say in regard to laws is completely worthless to him, and again, he is not from your country and you don't own any of the guns he was asking about, so you really have no business in this thread.

Second, all of my guns are loaded, whether they are the ones that are on me, or the ones I take out of the safe when I am home and lock up when I'm not.

And, I'm not sure how it works in Australia, but "people who are untrained in the use of firearms" don't magically appear and begin walking around my house and messing with my shit, let alone have the ability to get into my safe.

You have been called on your bullshit by many different people with differing opinions, and those from AT LEAST 4 different countries.

Including your own.


You don't have any fucking idea what you're talking about in relation to anything. Just because you take you're fucking "fowling piece" out to shoot clays once every 2 months doesn't mean you're a shotgun expert.

In fact, you haven't proved yourself to actually know anything of relevance about any area of firearms.

My best advice for you would be to stop giving answers to questions on subject that you don't know dick about.

[aussiedude]

Well, first off, the original poster in not from Australia so anything you say in regard to laws is completely worthless to him, and again, he is not from your country and you don't own any of the guns he was asking about, so you really have no business in this thread.

Second, all of my guns are loaded, whether they are the ones that are on me, or the ones I take out of the safe when I am home and lock up when I'm not.

And, I'm not sure how it works in Australia, but "people who are untrained in the use of firearms" don't magically appear and begin walking around my house and messing with my shit, let alone have the ability to get into my safe.

You have been called on your bullshit by many different people with differing opinions, and those from AT LEAST 4 different countries.

Including your own.


You don't have any fucking idea what you're talking about in relation to anything. Just because you take you're fucking "fowling piece" out to shoot clays once every 2 months doesn't mean you're a shotgun expert.

In fact, you haven't proved yourself to actually know anything of relevance about any area of firearms.

My best advice for you would be to stop giving answers to questions on subject that you don't know dick about.

ok umm firstly in terms of irrelevance, that went out the window when the OP said that due to the apartment, choice was limited to a handgun... oh and if there was an issue with laws in terms of the choice of firearm then perhaps the OP should have limited the forum to the making a point of factors such as state and country which responses to the topic should be limited to, oh and that just fucks your point of the 3 other different countries including my own saying that i'm wrong, because wait a minute, aren't they from a different counrty and abiding by different laws?

leaving loaded guns anywhere is retarded... for fucks sake isn't that obvious? what kind of person does not see this as being dangerous... better yet do you not know the basic principle to treat every gun as being loaded is a METAPHOR not advice to go and literally load any gun you can?

ok i also don't go and shoot clays every two months, i use it for getting rid of vermin when i'm not at uni or working, granted my life may not revolve around guns but that does not dictate that i don't know shit about them

oh and i don't think i have had a chance to add much about firearms because i've had to actually raise the point that there are other types of shotguns to use, and that killing someone who has broken into your house is not the most lawful practice to undertake in the whole scheme of things

congratulations on reinforcing the redneck american stereotype

[AnalHerpes]

piercings and clothing can't really do any damage, and in all reality you can't just go and buy anything you want, hence the black market, so i'm pretty sure even in the USA there are restrictions on what you can and can't legally buy, as well as there being processes in which to buy guns.

to be honest i wouldn't say that it's a communist-like system, rather it's just a means of preventing people who aren't actually interested in firearms, for legitimate reasons, from getting a bunch and leaving them around the house in the name of self-defense, or having guns which they don't know how to use safely.

Why not ban alcohol? Drunk driving accidents are a leading cause of death among young people and serves no legitimate purpose. While we're at it, let's raise the driving age to 21. There are plenty of things you can do to lower the amount of fatalities but you don't do them because they inconvenience you.

[LavaRed]

Why not ban alcohol? Drunk driving accidents are a leading cause of death among young people and serves no legitimate purpose. While we're at it, let's raise the driving age to 21. There are plenty of things you can do to lower the amount of fatalities but you don't do them because they inconvenience you.

This.

More to the point of the thread.

Yes, I am pretty sure I am perfectly capable of defending myself with an SxS shotty (I love them), or even a Rolling Block Remmy.

If I had access to the pump action, naturally, I'd prefer that.

But I do think that people should be allowed to keep their guns loaded or unloaded if they want; not forced into it by law.

I was 3. I sneaked into my dad's room. I took a revolver from its holster hanging on the bed. It was loaded. They say when they found me I had proceeded to disassemble it, but had first removed the shells. Call bullshit on me if you want, but I can gat my mother to tell you the story.

Moral: If you teach your kids guns are not toys from a young age, they'll learn not to emulate James Bond later on.

[aussiedude]

Why not ban alcohol? Drunk driving accidents are a leading cause of death among young people and serves no legitimate purpose. While we're at it, let's raise the driving age to 21. There are plenty of things you can do to lower the amount of fatalities but you don't do them because they inconvenience you.

the fact that drivers can have a positive BAC within a limit and that in keeping within this limit is not seen to be dangerous would suggest that i'm right. most people who are drunk crash, sure, but the limit is there as a guide what to use before acidents are more probable. as is the same point with firearms one might say. oh and wait a minute, you require a licence for cars and theres a limitation on what type of car you can drive, at least a probationary driver, let alone heavy vehicle catagories as well as boats and motorcycles, so shit, why not apply it to guns? have people be licenced for what they can prove to use in a correct manner rather than a simple test and then a free-for-all with regards to what they can use.

This.

More to the point of the thread.

Yes, I am pretty sure I am perfectly capable of defending myself with an SxS shotty (I love them), or even a Rolling Block Remmy.

If I had access to the pump action, naturally, I'd prefer that.

But I do think that people should be allowed to keep their guns loaded or unloaded if they want; not forced into it by law.

I was 3. I sneaked into my dad's room. I took a revolver from its holster hanging on the bed. It was loaded. They say when they found me I had proceeded to disassemble it, but had first removed the shells. Call bullshit on me if you want, but I can gat my mother to tell you the story.

Moral: If you teach your kids guns are not toys from a young age, they'll learn not to emulate James Bond later on.

well that is great, but a lot of people don't, especially people who rarely use their guns and keep them locked away (or worse hidden) and only have them for protection, not sports, hunting, or as part of their employment

[Deadlock]

I would recommend a .38 revolver, a 9mm auto, or a 20 ga pump-action with a pistol grip. I would recommend a 16 ga pump with pistol grip, it has the easy handling of a 20 with the power of 12, but the ammo is a little hard to find sometimes.

I'm partial to the revolver because there is no risk of jamming, also .38's are fairly priced, the ammo is cheap and plentiful, and it's more than enough to stop any intruder. If you're a fair shot, you also aren't going to need more than 6 shots (3 honestly) to stop one or two people.

The .38, 9mm, and 20 ga are easy to handle, have little recoil, and aren't going to cause a lot of collateral damage.

People suggesting .357/.44/.50 and such is just plain overkill. These are guns that could kill a grizzly and honestly, good luck resighting the thing quickly if you miss, that is if the recoil doesn't knock you on your ass.

Hollow points are OK bust most likely going to kill someone, where a few Glaser rounds would do more than fine for incapacitation. If you're worried about flak vests and kevlar, simply aim for the legs.

Just make sure you have the Castle Doctrine in your area.

[Generic Box Of Cookies]

People suggesting .357/.44/.50 and such is just plain overkill. These are guns that could kill a grizzly and honestly, good luck resighting the thing quickly if you miss, that is if the recoil doesn't knock you on your ass.

Hollow points are OK bust most likely going to kill someone, where a few Glaser rounds would do more than fine for incapacitation. If you're worried about flak vests and kevlar, simply aim for the legs.

Just make sure you have the Castle Doctrine in your area.


20ga recoil doesn't seem to be much worse than 12. Is the pistol grip really necessary?

.357 recoil isn't that bad unless you shooting it out of a small framed gun. It is however loud and bright compared to 38. .44 mag isn't something I'd want to use indoors.

[LavaRed]

I'm partial to the revolver because there is no risk of jamming



Not true. Bulged cases are barely one way. And when a revolver gets jammed, good luck clearing it in 2 seconds. It is, however, less frequent than a pistol.

I find .38 spl with a soft nosed hollowpoint to be quite the ideal man- stopper.

Oh, and shooting for the neck or head looks better than the legs. To a courtroom anyways.

[Deadlock]

I stand corrected.

20ga recoil doesn't seem to be much worse than 12. Is the pistol grip really necessary?

.357 recoil isn't that bad unless you shooting it out of a small framed gun.

I agree that the 12 doesn't have much more recoil than the 20. Some people complain that it does, although they usually aren't experienced shooters.

No pistol grip necessary, just makes it a bit more compact and easier to use in tight quarters. (ie condo/apartment, depending on layout and size anyway)

True, that .357 recoil isn't that bad on larger frames, but this makes them a bit more weighty, and depending on personal size (and skill) it may be harder to use. Still a bit overpowered if you're not trying to kill an intruder though.

Not true. Bulged cases are barely one way. And when a revolver gets jammed, good luck clearing it in 2 seconds. It is, however, less frequent than a pistol.

True, I should have said "practically no chance of jamming". If a revolver does jam, just half-cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder.

[5.56 SS109]

I don't shoot revolvers much, but I've yet to come across a DA revolver with a half cock notch.

Regardless though, a bulged case will usually make a revolver useless because, in a fight, there is absolutely no reason you should be "fucking with" you gun.

Also, because of the "open" mechanism on a revolver, it is much more likely that dust or grit or whatever will work its way into the mechanism and potentially cause a failure to fire.

Modern autopistols (GLOCK, XD, CZ75, etc) are as reliable as anyone would want. And on the off chance that they do jam, just tap and rack and get back into the fight.

And, on to 16 gauge, it is just not really a viable option mainly because I have never seen ammo for it, let alone top of the line defensive ammo.

For all intents and purposes, every other gauge except 20 and 12 is dead.


Now, Glasers, no.

Glasers DO NOT pass FBI testing protocol, and they are like $2 a shot.


Overly light, high speed, lightly constructed bullets are bad news for self defense. There is a good chance they rounds will fail to penetrate heavy clothing and they only leave grizzly, yet ineffective, surface wounds on soft targets.

Why would you want a .38 caliber shotgun loaded with a ridiculously tiny amount of #12 shot?

You also mention "collateral damage", how do 9x19, .38, and 20ga reduce the risk?

If you miss with ANYTHING and hit something other than you intended target, there is an extremely high chance that what you hit will die.

And ALL of the calibers you listed do absolutely nothing to reduce the risk of penetrating sheet rock and other common home construction materials.

[AnalHerpes]

the fact that drivers can have a positive BAC within a limit and that in keeping within this limit is not seen to be dangerous would suggest that i'm right. most people who are drunk crash, sure, but the limit is there as a guide what to use before acidents are more probable. as is the same point with firearms one might say. oh and wait a minute, you require a licence for cars and theres a limitation on what type of car you can drive, at least a probationary driver, let alone heavy vehicle catagories as well as boats and motorcycles, so shit, why not apply it to guns? have people be licenced for what they can prove to use in a correct manner rather than a simple test and then a free-for-all with regards to what they can use.


You completely subverted my post. My point was that due to the irresponsibility of a few people, we should punish everyone. Of course I was being facetious, in a free country like the US, we punish people after a crime has been committed, not before.

I would actually much prefer it if guns were legally treated the same as cars than compared to our current system. It would mean there would be much less restriction on gun ownership (IE, almost none). It would mean that we could buy full auto M4s with no background check and would only need to pass a simple proficiency test and registration to use/carry it in public and this license would be reciprocated across every state. I think it would mean we couldn't leave spare parts strewn across the lawn but that's a small price to pay for all the bullshit laws that would be removed.

[Raptor Ribs]

No offense but all this gun talk is bullshit. Well most of it anyways.

You could spend $10,000 on the strongest gun ever fucking made. If I tag you with my .22 first its over. I would fuck shit up with my .22 semi auto ruger. I have a shotgun too, but my point it, a gun is a gun is a gun. Unless you're talking fully auto it don't much difference. If I shoot someone in the chest with a .22 they're gonna die just like if you shot them with the strongest round possible.

My advice, get any gun you can as long as its reliable. And then learn how to use it. Go to the range. Go paint balling. Get some professional training at a cop wannabe academy or some shit.

*prepares to be flamed by gun nuts*

e: And when I say there gonna die if I hit them in the chest with a .22 is that maybe the first shot will kill them. Maybe it won't. Won't make any difference. You think someone with a bullet hole is gonna put up a fight? Just fucking shoot them in the face after if your out to kill.

[5.56 SS109]

No offense but all this gun talk is bullshit. Well most of it anyways.

You could spend $10,000 on the strongest gun ever fucking made. If I tag you with my .22 first its over. I would fuck shit up with my .22 semi auto ruger. I have a shotgun too, but my point it, a gun is a gun is a gun. Unless you're talking fully auto it don't much difference. If I shoot someone in the chest with a .22 they're gonna die just like if you shot them with the strongest round possible.

My advice, get any gun you can as long as its reliable. And then learn how to use it. Go to the range. Go paint balling. Get some professional training at a cop wannabe academy or some shit.

*prepares to be flamed by gun nuts*

e: And when I say there gonna die if I hit them in the chest with a .22 is that maybe the first shot will kill them. Maybe it won't. Won't make any difference. You think someone with a bullet hole is gonna put up a fight? Just fucking shoot them in the face after if your out to kill.



Or, you could stop making excuses for why you don't feel it's necessary to buy quality equipment.

:rolleyes:

[AnalHerpes]

No offense but all this gun talk is bullshit. Well most of it anyways.

You could spend $10,000 on the strongest gun ever fucking made. If I tag you with my .22 first its over. I would fuck shit up with my .22 semi auto ruger. I have a shotgun too, but my point it, a gun is a gun is a gun. Unless you're talking fully auto it don't much difference. If I shoot someone in the chest with a .22 they're gonna die just like if you shot them with the strongest round possible.

My advice, get any gun you can as long as its reliable. And then learn how to use it. Go to the range. Go paint balling. Get some professional training at a cop wannabe academy or some shit.

*prepares to be flamed by gun nuts*

e: And when I say there gonna die if I hit them in the chest with a .22 is that maybe the first shot will kill them. Maybe it won't. Won't make any difference. You think someone with a bullet hole is gonna put up a fight? Just fucking shoot them in the face after if your out to kill.

While skill is definitely much more important than equipment, they're usually (unless in extreme financial difficulty) not mutually exclusive. If you can't afford anything more than a couple hundred, why not get some kind of Makarov or CZ-82? If the only thing you can shoot with remote accuracy is a .22, then train on it until you get better than get something with more stopping power and ammo reliability.

[Raptor Ribs]

1) I'm in canada. Shotguns and rifles are all we got unless you wanna go through a whole bunch of legal bullshit. I would love a handgun, or some other type of concealable firearm, but thats not gonna happen
2)I'm broke
3)I'm on probation for breaking and entering and assault. My firearms license has been revoked.

My .22 ruger is unregistered, found it in my grandpas attic (he died a long time ago so I took it). The shotgun is in my dads name but its actually mine. It was a birthday present.

So I'm pretty set with what I got. Considering I have no money, no license, and a court order saying I must turn any firearms over to the police or its a breach of probation.

My point is, having a better gun will give you a slight edge, but ONE wrong move, and it doesn't matter. You could have an awesome gun, but you're still gonna get fucked up by a cop or someone that actually knows how to get in a gun fight.

E: Or, you could stop making excuses for why you don't feel it's necessary to buy quality equipment.

:rolleyes:

The shotgun was like 450$. Its just a standard pump action. 20 gauge (intended for hunting not home defense). And seriously, I would rather have my .22 then a 12 gauge shotgun. I can fucking spray with that thing. I can pump out like 20 rounds in 4 seconds. Thats pretty fucking deadly.

[5.56 SS109]

^ True.

But with the shotgun you probably won't need 20 shots, lol.

[Raptor Ribs]

^ True.

But with the shotgun you probably won't need 20 shots, lol.

That might be true. If you get in a fire fight in an open field. My .22 is amazing for covering and suppressive fire.

Not every bullet you fire should be intended to hit. Some rounds you fire just to keep them ducking under cover while you move to a better position. The .22 is key for that because you don't have to reload often, you don't need to pump, bolt action, or do anything. Just fire away for 20 rounds. Pull, slap, cock, ready with another 20 rounds.

[Random_Looney]

Ignoring the disgustingly illogical/fallacious, and completely untrue bullshit I've not deigned to post on yet...

Warning to all lurkers/newer firearms owners:
The legality of warning shots and suppressive fire is flaky at absolute best. You're responsible for every shot you fire. That includes all damages.

And why the above poster thinks the "gun nuts" (you mean elitists) are arguing you need exorbitantly expensive firearms is beyond me.

Caliber-wise, you should get the largest caliber you can shoot effectively in a reliable platform. You should also be able to shoot affordably to practice.

I own some junky guns, and some nice customized firearms. Nicer weapons are typically easier to shoot better. Shot placement is key. I want to shoot better than the other guy. It might not end up mattering, but it's an advantage. As long as the gun works and shoots well, it's more of a threat.

Yes... you can give someone an experienced firearms user a zinc .22 and he can kill an inexperienced guy given a custom .45.

Which do you think he'll take given a choice, though?

[aussiedude]

You completely subverted my post. My point was that due to the irresponsibility of a few people, we should punish everyone. Of course I was being facetious, in a free country like the US, we punish people after a crime has been committed, not before.

I would actually much prefer it if guns were legally treated the same as cars than compared to our current system. It would mean there would be much less restriction on gun ownership (IE, almost none). It would mean that we could buy full auto M4s with no background check and would only need to pass a simple proficiency test and registration to use/carry it in public and this license would be reciprocated across every state. I think it would mean we couldn't leave spare parts strewn across the lawn but that's a small price to pay for all the bullshit laws that would be removed.

dude your first point is full of shit, what do you thinks happens at guantanamo bay? people being held there without trial?

as for your second point... thats just irresponsible

[Random_Looney]

as for your second point... thats just irresponsible

How so? Whatever happened to personal accountability?

[AnalHerpes]

dude your first point is full of shit, what do you thinks happens at guantanamo bay? people being held there without trial?

as for your second point... thats just irresponsible

Unlike us peasants, the government does not need to follow the law, just because they are doing something doesn't mean that it's legal. If they violate the Constitution in one way does not mean that you should ignore them if they violate it again in another way.

Also, how is it irresponsible? Just because you don't trust yourself with such a weapon does not mean you should project that onto others and assume everyone is incapable of doing so.

The second point is for anyone who says that "guns should be regulated just like cars", which just happens to be a lot of people. I was merely pointing out that a gun is harder to obtain than a car even though owning a gun is a Constitutionally protected right and owning a car isn't.

There are a lot of reasons cars today are bad such as how they kill more people than guns and encourage an unsustainable lifestyle but since most people own cars, they tend to ignore that.

[LavaRed]

Unless your target is wearing very heavy armor, .38 spl and .45 ACP have proven to be the premier man- stopping cartridges.
Throw in .357 Magnum for me there too.

A 10/22 is a plinking gun. No more, no less. So are most .22's . So unless you are a KGB assassin, I suggest you stay away from .22 for defense.

[Groundhog whacka]

No offense but all this gun talk is bullshit. Well most of it anyways.

You could spend $10,000 on the strongest gun ever fucking made. If I tag you with my .22 first its over. I would fuck shit up with my .22 semi auto ruger. I have a shotgun too, but my point it, a gun is a gun is a gun. Unless you're talking fully auto it don't much difference. If I shoot someone in the chest with a .22 they're gonna die just like if you shot them with the strongest round possible.

My advice, get any gun you can as long as its reliable. And then learn how to use it. Go to the range. Go paint balling. Get some professional training at a cop wannabe academy or some shit.

*prepares to be flamed by gun nuts*

e: And when I say there gonna die if I hit them in the chest with a .22 is that maybe the first shot will kill them. Maybe it won't. Won't make any difference. You think someone with a bullet hole is gonna put up a fight? Just fucking shoot them in the face after if your out to kill.

:picard: Shit, idiocy knows no bounds. Don't get me wrong a 22LR beats throwing your keys at someone but its the bottom of the barrel choice for self defense. If you shoot someone in the chest with it they might die, but its going to take a while. I had a deer run 100yds with a 45cal hole in one lung and half of its heart pulverized. I know thats comparing apples to oranges but adrenaline does amazing things. I am pretty sure if you put (1) 22LR hole in me, I am going to put (16) 9mm holes in your ass, and then probably still feel like reloading.
You are just plain stupid if you have the choice of 12ga and 22LR and you take the 22. Unless you are that piss poor of a shot the you need 20 rounds to get the job done.


aussiedude, pull your head out of your ass. You have said so many ridiculous things I cannot begin to comment on the all.

[KeYLoW]

ok umm firstly in terms of irrelevance, that went out the window when the OP said that due to the apartment, choice was limited to a handgun... oh and if there was an issue with laws in terms of the choice of firearm then perhaps the OP should have limited the forum to the making a point of factors such as state and country which responses to the topic should be limited to, oh and that just fucks your point of the 3 other different countries including my own saying that i'm wrong, because wait a minute, aren't they from a different counrty and abiding by different laws?

leaving loaded guns anywhere is retarded... for fucks sake isn't that obvious? what kind of person does not see this as being dangerous... better yet do you not know the basic principle to treat every gun as being loaded is a METAPHOR not advice to go and literally load any gun you can?

ok i also don't go and shoot clays every two months, i use it for getting rid of vermin when i'm not at uni or working, granted my life may not revolve around guns but that does not dictate that i don't know shit about them

oh and i don't think i have had a chance to add much about firearms because i've had to actually raise the point that there are other types of shotguns to use, and that killing someone who has broken into your house is not the most lawful practice to undertake in the whole scheme of things

congratulations on reinforcing the redneck american stereotypeI don't see a problem with leaving guns loaded. I don't have people coming in my house, looking under my bed and in my nightstand, and getting out my guns. It might be different if you have kids but even then if you teach them proper gun safety they should know better. Guns don't shoot themselves.

If someone breaks into my house then I have no way of knowing their intentions. There aren't a whole lot of ways to go about it.

[Phinehas]

It would be less of a pain in the ass just to get an 18" or longer barreled shotgun rather than having to go through the process of getting a tax stamp and registering a short barreled shotgun. SBSs are more of a novelty than anything.

Unless of course you're in Canada, in which case it's non-restricted and therefore the easiest kind of gun to get.

[Mr. Dazed and Confused]

If you don't want to kill someone, I suggest you look into some less than lethal options like a stun gun, but you figure out the legality of less than lethal weapons in your individual state.

One of my friends has an TASER X26C and it's pretty sweet. I own a SIG P229 40 cal and hope I never have to use it inside my house, but I think it's a great home defense weapon.

I also own a Remington model 1100 4-10 and a 12 gauge BPS 26" barrel, but I think the best home defense weapon is a pistol and a flashlight.

[aussiedude]

How so? Whatever happened to personal accountability?

well i guess you could try to hold the people accountable, but unlike say julian knight or martin bryant most people who do go and shoot a bunch of people finish themselves off

Unlike us peasants, the government does not need to follow the law, just because they are doing something doesn't mean that it's legal. If they violate the Constitution in one way does not mean that you should ignore them if they violate it again in another way.

Also, how is it irresponsible? Just because you don't trust yourself with such a weapon does not mean you should project that onto others and assume everyone is incapable of doing so.

The second point is for anyone who says that "guns should be regulated just like cars", which just happens to be a lot of people. I was merely pointing out that a gun is harder to obtain than a car even though owning a gun is a Constitutionally protected right and owning a car isn't.

There are a lot of reasons cars today are bad such as how they kill more people than guns and encourage an unsustainable lifestyle but since most people own cars, they tend to ignore that.

the government does need to follow the law... otherwise the shit really hits the fan... and dude i trust myself completely, i don't trust every other prick who is smart enough to fill out a form, as opposed to being smart enough to deal with issues in a constructive manner as opposed to going out with a bang

here's a mindfuck for you, cars also save more peoples lives than guns, oh and if you are a felon do you still have the constituional right to own a gun... apparantly i have heard that this is a 'no'... well so much for a constitutional right. cars only pose a risk as cars are used more frequently than guns

oh and in terms of unsustainability why not also ban red meat, alcohol, cigarettes, contact sports, non-contact sports where contact can occur, motor racing, manafacturing, etc all of these are unsustainable.... but fuck what would life be like without them...

I don't see a problem with leaving guns loaded. I don't have people coming in my house, looking under my bed and in my nightstand, and getting out my guns. It might be different if you have kids but even then if you teach them proper gun safety they should know better. Guns don't shoot themselves.

If someone breaks into my house then I have no way of knowing their intentions. There aren't a whole lot of ways to go about it.

if someone breaks into your house most of the time you wont be there

kids don't and won't know better all the time, they're kids... as a kid almost everyone has done something irresponsible or stupid with guns

[The Savage]

You know, Untill the early '90's you could legally own an M60 or any other automatic weapon in Tasmania? One of my uncles mates actually had a M60. and yet Tasmania had and has the lowest rate of armed crime (with more guns per person than any other state).

Do you think people can't rampage with one of our legal weapons? Do you really think people are safer with them? A decent marksman with a heavy bolt action .30cal can fuck up 5 peoples day in not much more than 5 seconds from over 500y. Practice with a pump action rifle and you can get 2x aimed shots away at close range (inside 75y) in 0.75seconds or less, then you have a mag capacity of 10-30 rounds and reloads only take around 2 seconds, Buy a Lever action shotgun with a 5rnd mag and you'll do just as much damage as if you had a SPAS12. And so what if our pistols can only hold 10 rounds, you're still going to drop two or three and you just buy more magazines to make up for the 7 less rounds each mag holds.

Ban guns and people will stab each other, Ban knives and people will beat each other to death, Ban clubs and people will use a steel capped boot, fuck amputate people arms and legs at birth and you'd have people rolling around trying to bite each other to death. The problem lies with the people not the tools.

[aussiedude]

You know, Untill the early '90's you could legally own an M60 or any other automatic weapon in Tasmania? One of my uncles mates actually had a M60. and yet Tasmania had and has the lowest rate of armed crime (with more guns per person than any other state).

Do you think people can't rampage with one of our legal weapons? Do you really think people are safer with them? A decent marksman with a heavy bolt action .30cal can fuck up 5 peoples day in not much more than 5 seconds from over 500y. Practice with a pump action rifle and you can get 2x aimed shots away at close range (inside 75y) in 0.75seconds or less, then you have a mag capacity of 10-30 rounds and reloads only take around 2 seconds, Buy a Lever action shotgun with a 5rnd mag and you'll do just as much damage as if you had a SPAS12. And so what if our pistols can only hold 10 rounds, you're still going to drop two or three and you just buy more magazines to make up for the 7 less rounds each mag holds.

Ban guns and people will stab each other, Ban knives and people will beat each other to death, Ban clubs and people will use a steel capped boot, fuck amputate people arms and legs at birth and you'd have people rolling around trying to bite each other to death. The problem lies with the people not the tools.

ok BUT then ONE tassie dude (number of heads unknown lol) fucked it up for the rest of us with said weapons, and yeh someone can go on a rampage with any weapon they want really, but in terms of home defense by some americunt who needs firearm advice of zoklet, no offense OP, less may be more

ok did anyone else just picture heads and torsos trying to fight? that shits like crash dumies but gone to like awsome lengths... could it be done?