Are you vegetarian?

[minor69ner]

So, I know some of you are. What are the pro's and con's?

[NaiveMonarch]

Naw bro, I'm straight.

[Mantikore]

no, but i dont mind if people are vegetarian.

[Dream of the iris]

Pros: I don't feel like shit :)

Cons: Doesn't taste as good :(

[jackketch]

I was a real vegetarian ,ie a vegan, until I almost died of it -from vitamin deficiency. And before any pasty carrot sucker says "vitamin supplements", that rather proves the point that vegetarianism is both unnatural and unhealthy. A good diet needs no supplement does it?

[Mantikore]

I was a real vegetarian ,ie a vegan, until I almost died of it -from vitamin deficiency. And before any pasty carrot sucker says "vitamin supplements", that rather proves the point that vegetarianism is both unnatural and unhealthy. A good diet needs no supplement does it?

just wondering, what did the doctor say were the nutrients you were lacking?

[jackketch]

just wondering, what did the doctor say were the nutrients you were lacking?

I never asked...I was too busy being injected with stuff to keep me alive. Being an alcoholic meant I was depreciating faster than a 'normal' vegan.

[Nerd Fangs]

I am a vegetarian. Because:

1. I think the meat industry contributes to 40% of CO2 emissions due to cow farts. although I'm a sceptic of global warming, I may as well play it safe.

2. It takes 3 barrels of oil to raise one cow. I fear the oil crisis and I think its a complete waste of oil. It isn't economical at all.

3. At the end of the day you are eating CORPSES :eek:.

http://www.yorapper.com/Photos/slaughterhouse.jpg http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/1446/3573/t/11726-Skinned-Cow-s-head-0.jpg

4. I'm agnostic and I don't think god would approve of us eating other animals. Either way I'm playing it safe. The bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" not "Thou Shalt Murder" (Kill can be killing of anything in our language, but I guess it could be a mistranslation)

5. Sometimes when they push the meat line too fast, when the animals are having their intestines ripped out they burst open and shit gets on the meat.

6. I think there are several health benefits with going veg (as long as you take suppliments) and studies show that on average vegs lead longer lives.

Vegetarian diets can aid in keeping body weight under control and substantially reduce risks of heart disease and osteoporosis.

7. The notion of eating meat every night is very modern, in the middle ages it was not a common thing. We weren't designed to eat meat every day, like most people do now.

http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/vel12/uploaded_images/705px-Chicken_McNuggets-739055.jpg

8. And finally, I highly respect the concept of hunting. Our ancestors would set out after an animal, chase it over the desert and only succeed in killing it after days when humans could track and carry water and animals couldn't , letting them die of exhaustion. I think that kind of hunting was a very spiritual process. These days meat is farmed efficiently, animals are rounded up like in the holocaust and mass-slaughtered in horrible conditions, never knowing what living in the wild is like. Then they are processed and corpses are squished together into 'fun chicken nuggets'. The process is completely different. There is no hunting, corporations have succeeded in making eating animal carcasses 'fun'. Its just disturbing.

[superspeedz]

i'm a vegetarian...

However I just hate animals a lot.

[Nerd Fangs]

i'm a vegetarian...

However I just hate animals a lot.

Yeah I forgot that too. Animals are fucking filthy.

[Mantikore]

4. I'm agnostic and I don't think god would approve of us eating other animals. Either way I'm playing it safe. The bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" not "Thou Shalt Murder" (Kill can be killing of anything in our language, but I guess it could be a mistranslation)



ive always thought it was murder. I mean, people should be able to defend themselves, and often participate in wars, which seem to be acceptable in christianity.

anyway, corpses are delicious

[Nerd Fangs]

ive always thought it was murder. I mean, people should be able to defend themselves, and often participate in wars, which seem to be acceptable in christianity.

anyway, corpses are delicious

http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/slaughterhouse2.gif

no

http://www.harpelsremodeling.com/images/skinned-pigs-hanging-in-a-slaughterhouse-%7E-gwe28273853.jpg

they

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k51/angiex5/slaughterhouse.jpg

aren't.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

:)

[Mantikore]

http://www.kerridale.com.au/images/abattoir.jpgyeshttp://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/lauracherry_photo/Abattoir20de20Meinier202.jpgtheyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/960000/images/_964767_abattoir300.jpgare

:)

Anyway, i do like that fact that vegetarians are cutting a bit of greenhouse gases. A little reduction in red meat wont really hurt, as it already provides a whole lot of nutrients.

[Nerd Fangs]

http://www.kerridale.com.au/images/abattoir.jpgyeshttp://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/lauracherry_photo/Abattoir20de20Meinier202.jpgtheyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/960000/images/_964767_abattoir300.jpgare

:)

Anyway, i do like that fact that vegetarians are cutting a bit of greenhouse gases. A little reduction in red meat wont really hurt, as it already provides a whole lot of nutrients.

Out of interest, how many serves of it do you eat per week? I guess it isn't that bad if its a small amount.

[sideshow]

I am a vegetarian. Because:

1. I think the meat industry contributes to 40% of CO2 emissions due to cow farts. although I'm a sceptic of global warming, I may as well play it safe.


You have a valid point when you say they contribute to the worlds CO2 emission, but not 40%, more like 9%.

I also hope you realise that the cattle being used in europe and america are domestic animals and they cannot survive on there own in the wild. If we had to stop eating meat what do we have to do with all these animals?

I do agree that you dont have to eat a serve of meat every day, but being a vegetarian, no thanks.

[Mullen]

http://www.sdbeef.org/images/biwfd-4C1.gif

[jackketch]

4. I'm agnostic and I don't think god would approve of us eating other animals. Either way I'm playing it safe. The bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" not "Thou Shalt Murder" (Kill can be killing of anything in our language, but I guess it could be a mistranslation)



If I remember my basic biblical hebrew aright(and it's been along time) I think the translation is something along the lines of "Not murdering (shalt)thou" but I will stand to be corrected on that.

The Hebrew word used here is ratsach,3 which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause (unless indicated otherwise by context). Hebrew law recognized accidental killing as not punishable. In fact, specific cities were designated as "cities of refuge," so that an unintentional killer could flee to escape retribution.4 The Hebrew word for "kill" in this instance is not ratsach, but nakah, which can refer to either premeditated or unintentional killing, depending upon context.5

[beergoggles]

I'm a vegetarian. I used to be a vegan but my weightlifting suffered as a result so I added egg whites and whey protein to my diet.

Pros: I feel better. No more heartburn, no more digestive problems, and no more junk fast food shoveled down my stomach. It really forces you to watch what you eat.

Cons: It's hard to find stuff to eat out and about sometimes. People don't understand it at all.

[Nero]

I'm a vegetarian, because eating fauna is fucked up, disgusting, and you're a faggot.

[wires]

I've been properly vegetarian for 11 years, but I've never liked milk or eggs really ever. I do eat chocolate, so I suppose I'm just a really strict vegetarian.

[beergoggles]

I was a real vegetarian ,ie a vegan, until I almost died of it -from vitamin deficiency. And before any pasty carrot sucker says "vitamin supplements", that rather proves the point that vegetarianism is both unnatural and unhealthy. A good diet needs no supplement does it?

I never asked...I was too busy being injected with stuff to keep me alive. Being an alcoholic meant I was depreciating faster than a 'normal' vegan.

What the fuck. You were an alcoholic and a vegan, you get a vitamin deficiency, and you BLAME BEING A VEGAN?

What kind of twisted fucking logic is that? There are plenty of vegans who have no problems, and they are NOT alcoholics.

You can get all the vitamins you need from plants, just some are harder to get than others. b12 can be found in some algae and mushrooms, because it's made from bacteria.

Most processed food is fortified, and not just vegetarian food, ALL food. They supplement the non-veg stuff with stuff you find from vegetables and fruits. Things like fiber, vitamins, and some minerals. However they only supplement veg food with b12 and vitamin D. Isn't that ironic?

As long as your vegan diet is balanced, and it isn't just soy patties, you will be fine and quite healthy.

Edit: Wow! I never knew there were so many vegetarians on Zoklet!

[jackketch]

As long as your vegan diet is balanced,

What kind of twisted fucking logic is that? To be vegan is by definition to have an unbalanced diet. Like or not, we evolved as omnivores (ask a dentist if you're unsure about that).

Can we live without eating meat? Sure, lot of people do but it's unnatural, same way it would be unnatural to live without eating, say, fruit.

Oh btw the docs did make clear that all vegans are prone to deficiencies, just in my case it was extreme.

[SilkySmooth]

3. At the end of the day you are eating CORPSES :eek:.

http://www.yorapper.com/Photos/slaughterhouse.jpg http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/1446/3573/t/11726-Skinned-Cow-s-head-0.jpg

Pfft! Using fear appeals to try and support an argument is just lame.

I'm not a veggie - eating prepared animal carcasses doesn't phase me. In fact, I rather enjoy it. :D

[mr.blunt]

Fuck being vegetarian. I couldn't do it for a week.

[Mullen]

If we had to stop eating meat what do we have to do with all these animals?

They would..

1. Die from diseases that they haven't been immunized from.
2. Become malnourished and die from lack of food or intestinal worms.
3. Become food for wild animals.

Just a few possibilities..

[sideshow]

They would..

1. Die from diseases that they haven't been immunized from.
2. Become malnourished and die from lack of food or intestinal worms.
3. Become food for wild animals.

Just a few possibilities..

exactly, so we should just eat them, no?:thumbsup:

[jackketch]

I'm not a veggie - eating prepared animal carcasses doesn't phase me. In fact, I rather enjoy it. :D

THIS.

There is one simple 'Killer' argument for eating meat...

BACON SANDWICHES!

[/thread]

[Mullen]

exactly, so we should just eat them, no?:thumbsup:

Yes.

Or just let them die slow agonizing deaths and let the meat go to waste..

It really is a lose-lose situation for them. If you really want to help meat-producing animals, start eating people. :)

[Anima Mundi]

More or less a vegetarian, when I can turn down the meat. I'm not going to preach about it, I just feel it makes me healthier in general.

[Hobo]

Vegan, going on 7 months :)

[beergoggles]

What kind of twisted fucking logic is that? To be vegan is by definition to have an unbalanced diet. Like or not, we evolved as omnivores (ask a dentist if you're unsure about that).

Can we live without eating meat? Sure, lot of people do but it's unnatural, same way it would be unnatural to live without eating, say, fruit.

Oh btw the docs did make clear that all vegans are prone to deficiencies, just in my case it was extreme.

Okay, you are saying that doctors know everything? I had a doctor that swore I was anorexic and malnourished (I was a meat-eater then). He swore up and down the place that I was, and he was absolutely sure of it. We got blood tests done and everything was completely normal. He looked at the tests and goes, "Oh, I guess you're just a skinny guy then..."

The point is that doctors are not perfect. They can spread misinformation and have beliefs they adhere to as much as anyone else. Also this was probably decades ago since you are not a spring chicken (no offense) and I assume this was when you were younger. Our knowledge of how the body works has changed. Nutrition science has changed quite a bit.

Humans can pretty much live off of whatever we want. We are developed to where our bodies can pretty much handle whatever shit we are forced to put into it whether it be an all-meat diet or an all plant diet or somewhere in between. The point is to choose the BEST fuel for our bodies. A mostly plant based diet is the best. I'm not trying to advocate veganism here as I think it's a tad extreme, but I do think it's possible to be smart about it.

I don't necessarily agree with the teeth thing. We have more molars than anything. Those things that people point to called "canines" are not like the canines of a meat-eating animal at all. We CANNOT bite into an animal and tear its flesh apart with our teeth. We need tools to tear it apart, get it into bite-sized chunks, and then we have to cook it to make it tender enough to eat. Otherwise eating meat is not very practical for us.

Why is it that people buy the most tender cuts of meat? If we were meant to eat meat why wouldn't it be easier to chew? Why do we need traps and weapons to kill animals? Carnivores either chase their prey down or eat already dead animals. I don't think roadkill is too appetizing to us, and we can't catch animals with our bare hands. So explain to me again why we are designed to eat meat?

One last thing is our digestive system. A carnivore's digestive system is short and doesn't allow for putrification of meat. A herbivore has a very long digestive tract to digest plant matter more efficiently. Humans have a very long digestive system.

Also, look at species that are similar to us. Chimps eat mostly fruits and bugs. Okay, bugs are easy enough to catch and eat, and fruit is easy for us to get. I don't see chimps going around eating cows or chickens.

So why are we supposed to eat meat?

[poast-bortem!]

WTF!?

Pros: I don't feel like shit

I am a vegetarian.

i'm a vegetarian...

I'm a vegetarian.

I'm a vegetarian

I've been properly vegetarian for 11 years.

More or less a vegetarian.

Protip: You're not a rabbit. You're not a rabbit. You're not a rabbit.

I don't see why anyone would want to narrow down their selections so intensely.
I'd easily compare the joy of eating, to the joy of drugs/sex, and that's like never doing anal, or never trying weed.

Eating meat is real. It's inspiring, if anything.

Just sittin' there, chewing on a barbacued chicken. Cooked so far to perfection that the chicken's skin is literately falling off, pink blood and marinade dripping down your face and fingers. Taking massive bites until your waistline starts to bulge, and the chicken's remains are uncomfortably creeping up the back of your throat.

Mmmmmm.

[Hobo]

Oh, pros and cons. Right.

Vegan

Pros: Cruelty free. Much much healthier

Cons: Must learn how to cook (though I found this to be a pro). Labels! Be prepared to read the label of everything you pick up. Eating out with omnivorous friends is a bitch.

[jackketch]

The point is to choose the BEST fuel for our bodies. A mostly plant based diet is the best. No argument there but the balance has to include some meat although again you're probably right that we aren't really designed to tear or digest steak but should really stick to bugs...but locusts can't match bacon (you can trust me on that btw).

[jackketch]

Pros: Much much healthier


Debatable how healthy a diet can be that cuts out a whole nutritional aspect.

And then there's the whole mental health issue.

No human can be sane without the occasional bacon sandwich.

FACT.

[mr.blunt]

I don't necessarily agree with the teeth thing. We have more molars than anything. Those things that people point to called "canines" are not like the canines of a meat-eating animal at all. We CANNOT bite into an animal and tear its flesh apart with our teeth. We need tools to tear it apart, get it into bite-sized chunks, and then we have to cook it to make it tender enough to eat. Otherwise eating meat is not very practical for us.

Why is it that people buy the most tender cuts of meat? If we were meant to eat meat why wouldn't it be easier to chew? Why do we need traps and weapons to kill animals? Carnivores either chase their prey down or eat already dead animals. I don't think roadkill is too appetizing to us, and we can't catch animals with our bare hands. So explain to me again why we are designed to eat meat?

One last thing is our digestive system. A carnivore's digestive system is short and doesn't absorb fats and stuff as quickly. A herbivore has a very long digestive tract to digest plant matter more efficiently. Humans have a very long digestive system.

Also, look at species that are similar to us. Chimps eat mostly fruits and bugs. Okay, bugs are easy enough to catch and eat, and fruit is easy for us to get. I don't see chimps going around eating cows or chickens.

So why are we supposed to eat meat?

The first part of your post, about doctors and nutrition science, I agree with. However, this half of the post is pretty much bullshit.

About the teeth: Just because we have more molars than sharp, tearing teeth you think we should be vegetarians? Obviously we have canines for a reason, and that's eating meat. Take a look at the skull of a deer or some other herbivore, and you'll notice that they have NO canines. At all. For a reason, THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO EAT MEAT. We are. Molars are just for chewing, so obviously we need a good number of them.

And this whole tender meat argument is pretty moot. What you're saying is that because people like eating a juicy, tender steak over a stringy, chewy, tough steak, that we aren't meat eaters? That's dumb as fuck, dude. This is total preference. I'd say that humans would be able to bite and rip flesh off a leg of some freshly killed animal, but just because we'd be able to doesn't mean we want to or should.

And what's that shit about us needing to hunt for food being a reason we shouldn't eat it? Every carnivore hunts for it's food (unless it's scavenging, ofc), and just because we're (one of) the only animals who have mastered using and making tools means we aren't supposed to eat meat that we kill with those tools? Bullshit.

Also, you seem to be arguing as if we're saying humans are straight carnivores. The reason all of our teeth aren't razor sharp and we aren't natural born killing machines with claws and saber-teeth, is because we aren't carnivores. We're clearly an omnivorous species, but eating an all plant diet is absurd.

EDIT: And of course, I forgot one thing. A nice, bloody steak>any vegetable, ever. Hands down. Meat is just straight up fucking delicious.

[Paragon]

I'm not a vegetarian, because I love meat/killing animals. My girlfriend is, though, and she's perfectly healthy (and in great shape).

[beergoggles]

No argument there but the balance has to include some meat although again you're probably right that we aren't really designed to tear or digest steak but should really stick to bugs...but locusts can't match bacon (you can trust me on that btw).

I guess I can agree with you there. I sure as hell wouldn't eat a bug.

I don't eat meat because my body doesn't handle it to well and I hate the taste. I used to have terrible acid reflux when I did eat meat, and I was tired all the time. I'm not an animal rights freak.

I just know all those points because people constantly argue with me about being a vegetarian. I don't really care if people eat meat to be honest, but vegetarian bashing seems to be the cool thing to do, and I've learned to be on the defensive.

[poast-bortem!]

I'm not a vegetarian, because I love meat/killing animals. My girlfriend is, though, and she's perfectly healthy (and in great shape).

Samuel L Jackson:

"My girlfriend is a vegetarian, which pretty much makes me a vegetarian too."

"But I do love the taste of a good burger."

See. That proves it.

Vegetarians are pussies.

[beergoggles]

The first part of your post, about doctors and nutrition science, I agree with. However, this half of the post is pretty much bullshit.

About the teeth: Just because we have more molars than sharp, tearing teeth you think we should be vegetarians? Obviously we have canines for a reason, and that's eating meat. Take a look at the skull of a deer or some other herbivore, and you'll notice that they have NO canines. At all. For a reason, THEY AREN'T SUPPOSED TO EAT MEAT. We are. Molars are just for chewing, so obviously we need a good number of them.

What fucking canines? We have two slightly pointy teeth, big deal. Compare them to the other meat-eaters on the planet and there is NO comparison. Shit, my canines are barely even pointy.

Here is an example of omnivore teeth (bear teeth). Notice the big intimidating canines? Those could do some damage. They also have molars for chewing plants.

http://www.museums.norfolk.gov.uk/img_hr/dp80_2a.jpg

Our teeth more resemble that of an herbivore. Our front teeth are like scissors to cut the plant material up, and our back teeth are like grinders.

And this whole tender meat argument is pretty moot. What you're saying is that because people like eating a juicy, tender steak over a stringy, chewy, tough steak, that we aren't meat eaters? That's dumb as fuck, dude. This is total preference. I'd say that humans would be able to bite and rip flesh off a leg of some freshly killed animal, but just because we'd be able to doesn't mean we want to or should.

You say that we can bite the flesh off a freshly killed animal? Cool, make a video of you doing it and I'll believe it. Animals are not meant to have preference. If you were living in the middle of the woods you wouldn't be able to choose what you eat. We are pampered and spoiled, and given the choice for tender meat.

And what's that shit about us needing to hunt for food being a reason we shouldn't eat it? Every carnivore hunts for it's food (unless it's scavenging, ofc), and just because we're (one of) the only animals who have mastered using and making tools means we aren't supposed to eat meat that we kill with those tools? Bullshit.

What post are you reading smart guy? I quite clearly put in my post, "Carnivores either chase their prey down or eat already dead animals." We CANNOT do either of those things. We have no talons, claws, or ability to eat rotting, raw meat. We are forced to use tools to hunt, and we didn't always have the fancy tools we have today.

Also, you seem to be arguing as if we're saying humans are straight carnivores. The reason all of our teeth aren't razor sharp and we aren't natural born killing machines with claws and saber-teeth, is because we aren't carnivores. We're clearly an omnivorous species, but eating an all plant diet is absurd.

What I was arguing is that we are designed to eat plants. We, however, can live off of animals if we have to. Even cows can be fed other cows and survive, they just won't be healthy. I'm sure you'd agree that cows are herbivores now wouldn't you?

I'm arguing that we are designed as herbivores.


Read the bold.

[Carbonbased]

http://www.kerridale.com.au/images/abattoir.jpgyeshttp://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/lauracherry_photo/Abattoir20de20Meinier202.jpgtheyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/960000/images/_964767_abattoir300.jpgare

:)

Anyway, i do like that fact that vegetarians are cutting a bit of greenhouse gases. A little reduction in red meat wont really hurt, as it already provides a whole lot of nutrients.

QMFT
In any case I try to eat a balanced diet, now, where as a few months ago I was completely doing the unhealthy American carnivore thing of eating a shit ton of beef, carbs W/O fiber like rice and potatoes.

I ended up feeling shitty over all so now I eat more chicken and fish, as well as lots of veggies like spinach and fruit often in the form of shakes.

I feel great now days and my diet works for me, and I'm sure vegan diets work for them and thats cool. But when some pompous ass vegan comes me and tells me that I'm destroying my body with animal products I want to fucking stab them with a lamb chop bone:mad:

[ArmsMerchant]

I'm a vegetarian, because eating fauna is fucked up, disgusting, and you're a faggot.

This is, I fear, typical of the obnoxious, self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude of many vegans. Granted, it IS a healthier and more humane lifestyle.

That said, the rampant ego-tripping and arrogance which so often accompanies it is fatal to spiritual growth.

Back to topic--I'm omnivorous, probably consume enough animal protein to sustain a small Vietnamese village, and take around 50 supplement pills and caps a day.

[ArmsMerchant]

just wondering, what did the doctor say were the nutrients you were lacking?

I would guess B complex, especially B12. Alkies are typically deficient in these, and B12 is mostly found in red meat.

[poast-bortem!]

Greyfox, I may be wrong but Chichi's post was aimed towards sarcasm.

[Dream of the iris]

Cons: It's hard to find stuff to eat out and about sometimes. People don't understand it at all.

Agreed. No one understands it. I don't understand why not.

[mr.blunt]

What fucking canines? We have two slightly pointy teeth, big deal. Compare them to the other meat-eaters on the planet and there is NO comparison. Shit, my canines are barely even pointy.

Here is an example of omnivore teeth (bear teeth). Notice the big intimidating canines? Those could do some damage. They also have molars for chewing plants.

It doesn't matter how pointy your teeth are, they're still canines. You can't even try to argue that. And I'm taking a course that has to do with skull ID, so no need to show me pictures.

You say that we can bite the flesh off a freshly killed animal? Cool, make a video of you doing it and I'll believe it. Animals are not meant to have preference. If you were living in the middle of the woods you wouldn't be able to choose what you eat. We are pampered and spoiled, and given the choice for tender meat.

I'm pretty sure I could easily do it. People bite out chunks of other people all the time, or bite heads straight off of small animals.

What post are you reading smart guy? I quite clearly put in my post, "Carnivores either chase their prey down or eat already dead animals." We CANNOT do either of those things. We have no talons, claws, or ability to eat rotting, raw meat. We are forced to use tools to hunt, and we didn't always have the fancy tools we have today.

Yes, we can. Pretty fucking easily. Just because we're a smart enough species to invent tools that make doing that easier doesn't mean we're herbivores, pal. Big deal we weren't born with six inch claws or fangs, we can sharpen a stick and get the job done.

I'd say it would be easier and better for me to chase down a turkey, break it's neck, and eat it than for me to walk around eating leaves off trees.

[ArmsMerchant]

Greyfox, I may be wrong but Chichi's post was aimed towards sarcasm.

Silly me.

Despite massive evidence to the contrary, I still tend to assume that people actually say what the fuck they MEAN.

That said, who are you to speak for Chichi? Is he sitting on your lap or something?

[wires]

As for the nutrition stuff, blood tests etc show I am in perfect health with no deficiencies in anything. I am a perfect weight etc as well. (say docs)

Ps- I can be a bunny if I like.

[Silverfuck]

As everything intelligent has been said already, I'll just add that I tried being a vegetarian until I remembered that meat is really fucking delicious.

[poast-bortem!]

That said, who are you to speak for Chichi? Is he sitting on your lap or something?

Forgive me.

That was a failed attempt at pointing out your idiocy in a respectful manner.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake. It won't happen again.

I'll also make sure to completely write you off from now on, and follow you around relentlessly mentioing how you're a pathetic old man who's wife was savagely gang-banged and who now lives out in the woods because he's too much of a coward to face the world that kicked his ass 40 years ago.

Thanks for turning me in the right direction!

[Cliche Guevara]

I am a vegetarian. Because:

7. The notion of eating meat every night is very modern, in the middle ages it was not a common thing. We weren't designed to eat meat every day, like most people do now.
.

This is a very good point. Even outside of North America, its not a very common thing. Every culture in the world (thats not only 200 years old) has some kind of staple food that is essentially two non-meat products that contain all the essential amino acids (rice and beans for example)

Anyway, I went vegetarian once. someone bet me 50 dollars and a steak and lobster dinner if I could go six months as a vegetarian. (specifically lacto-ovo, which pretty much means your just a huge idealistic pretentious faggot, but hey 50 bucks). But even if you are vegan, its actually not impossible and you can even put on weight. You just have to make sure you get a wide variety of proteins and be as diverse as you can. (which meant for me alot of $)

[Akagi]

I strongly suggest avoiding garbage meats (aka. the vast majority of all commercial meats) but you don't have to go vegetarian.

If the meat has nitrate/nitrite or any form of MSG, hidden (http://www.msgmyth.com/hidename.htm) or blatant, then don't eat it.

Processed meat consumption results in 67% increase in pancreatic cancer risk, says new research (http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/processedmeat050305.cfm)


Nearly all processed meats are made with sodium nitrite: breakfast sausage, hot dogs, jerkies, bacon, lunch meat, and even meats in canned soup products. Yet this ingredient is a precursor to highly carcinogenic nitrosamines -- potent cancer-causing chemicals that accelerate the formation and growth of cancer cells throughout the body. When consumers eat sodium nitrite in popular meat products, nitrosamines are formed in the body where they promote the growth of various cancers, including colorectal cancer and pancreatic cancer, says Adams.

"Sodium nitrite is a dangerous, cancer-causing ingredient that has no place in the human food supply," he explains. The USDA actually tried to ban sodium nitrite in the 1970's, but was preempted by the meat processing industry, which relies on the ingredient as a color fixer to make foods look more visually appealing. "The meat industry uses sodium nitrite to sell more meat products at the expense of public health," says Adams. "And this new research clearly demonstrates the link between the consumption of processed meats and cancer."

Pancreatic cancer isn't the only negative side effect of consuming processed meats such as hot dogs. Leukemia also skyrockets by 700% following the consumption of hot dogs. (Preston-Martin, S. et al. "N-nitroso compounds and childhood brain tumors: A case-control study." Cancer Res. 1982; 42:5240-5.) Other links between processed meats and disease are covered in detail in the Grocery Warning manual.

[Mullen]

breakfast sausage, hot dogs, jerkies, bacon, lunch meat, and even meats in canned soup products

I stopped eating this stuff a couple years ago, but it was because of the sodium content.

I knew those "meats" weren't fit for human consumption..

[JustAnotherAsshole]

http://www.kerridale.com.au/images/abattoir.jpgyeshttp://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb80/lauracherry_photo/Abattoir20de20Meinier202.jpgtheyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/960000/images/_964767_abattoir300.jpgare

:)

Anyway, i do like that fact that vegetarians are cutting a bit of greenhouse gases. A little reduction in red meat wont really hurt, as it already provides a whole lot of nutrients.

The meat industry isn't going to cut back on production just because a few people refuse to eat meat..

Anyway, meat is fucking epic. I love it.

I'll probably be having Schnitzel tonight.

[Akagi]

I'll probably be having Schnitzel tonight.

Look at the ingredients list on the package. Note the words sodium nitrate and/or sodium nitrite.

Putting that in your body jacks your cancer risk by 67%.

[Hyper-dimension]

I was a vegetarian for 3 years in high school, until I got sick of being sick all the time. Anemia set in pretty quick. I started eating meat again, put on 25 pounds of muscle, rid myself of anemia, and no longer looked like a pasty ghost.

And who said humans are incapable of chasing down a kill? We've been doing it for 2 million years, bro.

[Twisted]

I am a vegan. I beleive humans are herbivores. Oh, an get this, my boyfriend works at a slaughter house.

[wires]

I am a vegan. I beleive humans are herbivores.

They're really not.

[Mullen]

I beleive humans are herbivores.

omnivores*

[Nerd Fangs]

Samuel L Jackson:

"My girlfriend is a vegetarian, which pretty much makes me a vegetarian too."

"But I do love the taste of a good burger."

See. That proves it.

Vegetarians are pussies.

Samuel L Jackson (from the same movie):

Pigs root and eat in their own shit. I just don't dig on swine. (I guess this could apply to most animals)

[Hi-Guy]

http://www.tonychor.com/archive/bacon.jpg

[Twisted]

omnivores*

No HERBIVORES

[Mullen]

No HERBIVORES

Blood-thirsty carnivorous predators*

[Thought Riot]

pfft, I'm trying to gain weight and muscle mass. Meat has more protein than you vegetarians could ever hope for. My turkey, tuna, and chicken breasts are better for gaining than anything you're eating. It's all about balance. I highly doubt there are any negative consequences from eating meat as I do. Just avoid the junk food, the fast food, the processed shit, and keep the red meats down. I really don't give a shit if a chicken or turkey dies.

Oh, and all of you who belong to PETA, I make sure to insult the organization, tear down their posters, and black out their stickers whenever possible. I hate you.

Oh, and for those who are thinking that we're not omnivores, look at the canines and the appendix, which processed raw meat back in the day. We, as a species are fucking smart. We learned how to make tools and harness fire which meant that we don't need vicious teeth to kill prey and no longer need to eat it raw. Maybe these animals have these crude features because they just aren't as smart as us. Humans have always loved meat and ate it whenever possible. Or they have for about 4000 years when we learned to domesticate the stupid food. Before that, we would hunt the bastards. And before that, we'd scavange off the kills of other animals.

[skinny love]

vegetarian. eating the flesh of other animals is primitive and gross.

[Vizier]

Am I the only one that got hungry and wants some huge steak or burgers in this thread?
:confused:

[Akagi]

Yeah, I think I'm going to go grab me some non-processed meat.

[GatorWarrior]

I am a vegetarian. Because:

3. At the end of the day you are eating CORPSES :eek:.

http://www.yorapper.com/Photos/slaughterhouse.jpg http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/1446/3573/t/11726-Skinned-Cow-s-head-0.jpg


Mmmmm corspey meaty goodness!
Nothin beats a good steak!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Helladamnleet]

I am omnivorous. I enjoy meat, usually the more processed the better, but I do enjoy steamed vegetables and such also.

My mom is on some big health binge, so she buys healthy food that I do on occasion enjoy eating, but she also buys junk that I enjoy eating.

Although I do feel that I'm not in shape most of the time......

[refugee]

I don't eat certain types of animals, mainly because they are filthy creatures. But if I am hellafied hungry, Ill get some KFC anyday :)

[DJ Meaty Cheeks]

Whatever works for ya. Though aside from general health I don't get the veggies arguements.

[DJ Meaty Cheeks]

Just lookin' for pics of juicy sweet succulent MEAT!

[FrankyDiesel]

Dude,Im a semi vegetarian.

I will eat a good steak every month or so,Maybe some chicken,I LOVE bacon.I eat eggs,and cheese and shit.

But,I cannot eat hamburgers,sausage,porkchops or anything like that...I just cant do it...

Its the texture.I just have a hard time...fish too! fuck fish!

I had a bad experience with fat/grisle and shit like that when I was young and it totally put me off of most meat.

But,when I tell people I dont eat much meat,they start asking If im one of those faggy "dont kill animals" PETA people...no,I am not.kill all the fucking animals you want,I just dont dig em,ya know?

[zingalong]

I was a real vegetarian ,ie a vegan, until I almost died of it -from vitamin deficiency. And before any pasty carrot sucker says "vitamin supplements", that rather proves the point that vegetarianism is both unnatural and unhealthy. A good diet needs no supplement does it?

Why is everything you say so true and philosophical. I bet you could convince the pope that there is no god (there isn't by the way but that's a different thread :))

[blerrh]

We are obviously neither herbivore or carnivore and can eat WHATEVER THE FUCK WE WANT TO. Simple as that. I eat everything. nomnomnom

[Nero]

No human can be sane without the occasional bacon sandwich.

FACT.

Well in that case, you'd better prepare one for your wife.

OHHHHH SNAPPPPP.




...I'm sorry. :(

[xxombie]

I was veggie for about a year and a half, this week I started eating meat again.

I'm a bit anemic to start with, so my body is already lacking things like iron. I've passed out a couple times because I wasn't getting any as a vegetarian. I think it's horrible and disgusting, but at the moment it just isn't healthy for me to not eat meat. I was also wayyy fucking underweight, weighing about 100 pounds at 5'7". I've gained ten pounds this past week.

If you can find a way to make it work for you, I highly recommend it, for the first little while I felt great.

[ratfrink]

1. I think the meat industry contributes to 40% of CO2 emissions due to cow farts. although I'm a sceptic of global warming, I may as well play it safe.

What absolute bullshit! It doesn't contribute anywhere near that much. I'm not going to go into how global warming is true beyond all reasonable doubt because it's the wrong forum.


4. I'm agnostic and I don't think god would approve of us eating other animals. Either way I'm playing it safe. The bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" not "Thou Shalt Murder" (Kill can be killing of anything in our language, but I guess it could be a mistranslation)

The Dead Sea Scrolls cleared that one up. It says 'Thou Shalt Not Murder', the bible has been translated and mis-translated so many times that finding the ancient hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls actually changed quite a few things. This bit isn't relevant to me though because I don't believe in god - but here's a quick one for you anyway:
Do you believe that without god people are intrinsically bad? Claiming that you won't eat meat because of fear of God implies that you don't have a moral code outside of God's word. Now I'm sure that you do have a personal moral code and that without God you would still be a good person, and I'm sure that you know that too, so my question is - how can you use God as a basis for a moral code if you have your own moral code anyway?

Other than that though, I liked your post. I don't eat meat very often (maybe once a fortnight), and when I do, I get cuts of meat from the local butcher who uses local animals, rather than processed stuff that uses mistreated animals and is driven the length of the country and pumped full of salt and fat. I would like to raise a few animals of my own (just chickens because I live in the city centre at the moment).

I was a veggie for about a year, but one day I ate meat completely by accident. My friend from Japan was making some delicious-smelling pork dish and he asked if I wanted to try it, and I ate it without thinking. I still rarely eat meat though.

[beergoggles]

pfft, I'm trying to gain weight and muscle mass. Meat has more protein than you vegetarians could ever hope for. My turkey, tuna, and chicken breasts are better for gaining than anything you're eating. It's all about balance. I highly doubt there are any negative consequences from eating meat as I do. Just avoid the junk food, the fast food, the processed shit, and keep the red meats down. I really don't give a shit if a chicken or turkey dies.

Oh, and all of you who belong to PETA, I make sure to insult the organization, tear down their posters, and black out their stickers whenever possible. I hate you.



http://www.criticalbench.com/images/billpearl4.jpg

Bill Pearl. Veg bodybuilder from 50's and 60's. BEFORE all the drugs we have today.

So, think you can match up to him? What are your stats right now? How much weight you putting up?

I'm trying to gain weight and muscle mass as well. I manage to get down 300g of protein, mostly from egg whites and whey isolate. I also get down about 3-4 thousand calories. I'm getting plenty of complete proteins!

I hate PETA as well. I don't REALLY think we're supposed to be herbivores. I just wanted to bring up good points about our design being more friendly towards a plant based diet. I've been dying to see good arguments against vegetarianism and I have yet to find one. There is no other argument besides, "I don't care about animals and I don't agree with you."

[Captian Spectacular]

i've got nothing against vegetarians but i think it's a little crazy. i think you should just follow your countries food guide and make ajustments according to your prefrences. clearly we were designed to eat both but if you really like fruits and veggies all the power to you, but come on, you got to admit you crave some meat once in a while.

[Joe]

I am a vegetarian.

I would be vegan, but my lifestyle cannot support a commitment like that at the moment. I don't like the fact that I eat cheese and eggs, but I can't afford a fully vegan diet and I don't have the time to prepare vegan meals.

[Dream of the iris]

i've got nothing against vegetarians but i think it's a little crazy. i think you should just follow your countries food guide and make ajustments according to your prefrences. clearly we were designed to eat both but if you really like fruits and veggies all the power to you, but come on, you got to admit you crave some meat once in a while.


Meat's great, but the meat today isn't. When I eat meat, I feel...negative. Very strange feelings come over me. Maybe it's just psychological, but it's not a pleasant experience.

And what's up with all these people being anemic from being a vegetarian? Jeez, research people! There's a lot you can eat, you know.

[xxombie]

Meat's great, but the meat today isn't. When I eat meat, I feel...negative. Very strange feelings come over me. Maybe it's just psychological, but it's not a pleasant experience.

And what's up with all these people being anemic from being a vegetarian? Jeez, research people! There's a lot you can eat, you know.

I totally agree. If the meat we ate today was natural I wouldn't be against eating it.

I was already anemic, then I became veggie and it certainly didn't help. :thumbsup:

[Jelli]

We have sharp teeth up front for TEARING foods, like meat. Plus, steak is damned delicious.

[xxombie]

We have sharp teeth up front for TEARING foods, like meat. Plus, steak is damned delicious.

Shut the fuck up. Until you go out and start hunting and killing all your own meat, that argument is invalid.

[GatorWarrior]

No HERBIVORES

The human digestive system is too short for us to be herbivores.

[xxombie]

The human digestive system is too short for us to be herbivores.

I've heard the same argument for meat.

[elf omg]

My skin does look better after stopping with the meat.

/shrug

[ratfrink]

Shut the fuck up. Until you go out and start hunting and killing all your own meat, that argument is invalid.

What the hell?

I might as well say that you aren't allowed to be vegetarian unless you grow all your own vegetables.

[xxombie]

What the hell?

I might as well say that you aren't allowed to be vegetarian unless you grow all your own vegetables.

My point is that the only reason you'd need those sharp, ripping teeth that pro-meat eaters are constantly referring to, is if you were to actually hunt and kill the animal with them, then eat the flesh raw.

But you don't do this do you? You buy your meat from a grocery store, cook it and cut it up with a knife and fork. So those teeth don't mean anything.

[ArmsMerchant]

.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake. It won't happen again.

I]

At least not real soon, since you are banned at the moment.

[023]

Having to worry about nutrients you don't have is pretty stupid.

That's why I'm not a vegetarian. I don't worry about low iron or not getting enough protein.

Variety of foods = Health


Cutting out a food group doesn't make you healthy.

[skinny love]

i'm a vegetarian and i'm perfectly healthy and fit. i've never worried about low iron or protein so that's basically a bullshit excuse.

[023]

i'm a vegetarian and i'm perfectly healthy and fit. i've never worried about low iron or protein so that's basically a bullshit excuse.

But many vegetarians do.

[xxombie]

But many vegetarians do.

It depends so much on the person. If you've got the time and money, being a healthy vegetarian is no problem at all. If you're like me, with little money to spend on food and previously existing health problems, not eating meat isn't going to work out well.

I know more super healthy vegetarians then I do skinny weakling vegetarians.

[ratfrink]

My point is that the only reason you'd need those sharp, ripping teeth that pro-meat eaters are constantly referring to, is if you were to actually hunt and kill the animal with them, then eat the flesh raw.

But you don't do this do you? You buy your meat from a grocery store, cook it and cut it up with a knife and fork. So those teeth don't mean anything.

Erm. They mean that humans evolved with an omnivorous diet. In other words, it's natural for humans to eat meat. That's the crux of the canine argument.

You seem to think that we should only use the 'I have canines therefore I must eat meat' argument if we catch animals ourselves and rip them apart raw, like the Great Apes do.

That's not why people say it - because it also works the other way around. You have molars, so you should only eat vegetables if you dig them out of the ground with your hands (or possibly a stick) and eat them raw.

Strangely enough though, I doubt you do that either.

Anyway, didn't you admit in G&G that you do actually eat meat now?

[elf omg]

I am a vegetarian.

[sexual assault]

I thought I read in a previous post that you ate fish the whole time you were a "vegetarian" xxombie. I don't understand vegetarians that try to justify eating sea creatures.

Fish is meat, isn't it? Unless you were talking about sucking off the Zoklet moderator with the same name.

Long story short, you're a liar.

[Animal Farm Pig]

I'm somewhere in the middle.

If I'm cooking for myself, I don't cook meat. I try to avoid eating meat when possible. However, if I'm going to offend someone by not eating something they've prepared for me (house guest, or similar), or my choice is between meat and fucking rabbit food, I'll eat meat.

I wish I could be vegan, but leather is such a great material for boots and jackets, and I really fucking love cheese.

[sexual assault]

I'm friends with a lot of the trendy crusty kids downtown, and they're all vegan too, but a lot of them wear leather boots, belts and jackets. As I was sitting on my vegan friend's leather couch, staring at his new leather cowboy boots, I had to ask what the fuck he was thinking. He told me that it's okay to wear shit like that if it's second hand, because if he'd bought brand new another animal would have to be killed to make it.

Doesn't make sense to me. Fucking scenester faggots.

I went vegan 5 years ago. Not because I was a fan of PETA, not because I wanted to be a cool elitist scenester, not for any reason other than to see if I could do it. I feel fucking fantastic without the use of supplements, and I don't plan on going back.

If you're a vegan and eating nothing but potatoes and boca burgers then you're going to feel like shit. Eat a variety of vegan food and your health will improve. Can't seem to get your B12? Drink some fucking soy milk.

Ever heard of Carl Lewis? He won multiple gold medals in the Olympics while being on a vegan diet, saying that he performed best when he cut all animal products from his diet. I'm not saying that if you go vegan you'll be an Olympian, I'm just saying that not all vegans are weaklings.

I'm not one of those people who preach to my friends, or slap burgers out of their hands. I tend to keep it to myself because I don't appreciate when someone tries pushing a steak in my face, and I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate me carving murderer in their new couch.

Personal choice. Don't like it? I could care fucking less.

[GatorWarrior]

I've heard the same argument for meat.
That's true, as the human body was made to be an omnivore, the digestive system isn't suited towards one food group.

[sdmf_from_hell]

Being brought up on a farm and seeing the old man kill and cut up meat, i have no moral qualm with it.

You haven't had lamb until you've had home grown (literally) lamb. Fuck, i just can't express the full extent of it's tastiness. (milk on the other hand, i would rather have professional homogenized thank you very much)

I can see why people don't agree with eating meat, but we're animals and it's completely natural for most animals to eat other animals.
And yeah, as Jackketch said; a proper diet shouldn't need supplements.

Wouldn't it be more unnatural to supplement your body off a production belt than where the vitamins actually exist naturally?!

Did The Lion King not teach us anything?!

It's the ciiiiiiirrrrrrcle of liiiiiiiiiife.

[skinny love]

That's true, as the human body was made to be an omnivore, the digestive system isn't suited towards one food group.

the human body wasn't made to be anything. the human body wasn't even made. we have evolved to be physically able to be omnivores or herbivores. eating meat is not essential anymore, so if you believe in the sanctity of and respect for life then you should be a vegetarian. in my opinion, vegetarians are more evolved than omnivores, and vegans are the most evolved out of everyone.

[Irukanji]

Yes. With a side of medium/medium-rare t-bone/rid-eye/fillet steak.

Vegetable cells have walls too thick to be disolved easily. Meat have soft squishy cell walls, so are easier to digest.

Vegetables arent naturally our food, since more vegetables are poisonous then animals.

[mr.blunt]

in my opinion, vegetarians are more evolved than omnivores, and vegans are the most evolved out of everyone.

I don't know if I'd say they're more evolved, the only difference is the food they eat. It takes a looooong fucking time to evolve, obviously, but I know what you mean.

[Dream of the iris]

I'm lactose intolerant so I'm pretty much a forced vegan. I eat cheese occasionally, but only if I take a lactaid :o

I wouldn't say we're more evolved.

[skinny love]

I don't know if I'd say they're more evolved, the only difference is the food they eat. It takes a looooong fucking time to evolve, obviously, but I know what you mean.

evolved wasn't the right word i guess. advanced/futuristic is more accurate.

[Mankonaut X]

I just don't really care about the animals enough to stop eating. I stay away from shit like hotdogs and sausages but there's nothing like a chicken schnitzel sandwich for lunch :)

[xxombie]

Erm. They mean that humans evolved with an omnivorous diet. In other words, it's natural for humans to eat meat. That's the crux of the canine argument.

You seem to think that we should only use the 'I have canines therefore I must eat meat' argument if we catch animals ourselves and rip them apart raw, like the Great Apes do.

That's not why people say it - because it also works the other way around. You have molars, so you should only eat vegetables if you dig them out of the ground with your hands (or possibly a stick) and eat them raw.

Strangely enough though, I doubt you do that either.

Anyway, didn't you admit in G&G that you do actually eat meat now?

Okay, I totally see what you mean. But considering everything else humans do is pretty unnatural (wearing clothes, using condoms, line dancing) that argument is also kind of invalid.

And yeah, I do eat meat now, for the time being, but that's being I was retardedly unhealthy. I just hate when people try to defend why they eat meat with stupid logic. There are very few reasons why someone would have to eat meat, having special teeth isn't one of them.

[blerrh]

People who are interested in getting the best fuel for their body have my respect. People who get unhealthy because they cut certain kinds of food out of their diet do not. If you cut meat out of your diet and think you feel better it is all in your head. You may feel better if you switch from an unhealthy diet to a healthy one but that is regardless of whether it has meat in it or not

[reallystupidstuff]

http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/slaughterhouse2.gif

Delicious

http://www.harpelsremodeling.com/images/skinned-pigs-hanging-in-a-slaughterhouse-%7E-gwe28273853.jpg

dead

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k51/angiex5/slaughterhouse.jpg

animals.



Om nom nom nom... I would eat that beef raw

[Crashwangdoodle]

Jarp... But ive been vegetarian for my whole life so I've never experienced meat...

[NightVision]

No. In honor of this thread I will make myself a bacon sammich from some very high quality organic bacon.:D Vegetarian based diets can be very unhealthy especially when they still want to eat pastries/baked goods but they replace the lard that it is traditionally made out of with trans fats. That is much worse than the flesh, altho nitrates and other shit in meat can make it very bad. There are a lot of places that have a much longer life expectancy than veg yet still eat stuff that is considered unhealthy in the us of a. Oh, and global warming is liberal secularized religion.

[ayingerbrau]

It's funny when people bring up Carl Lewis or some other vegan/vegetarian athlete to back up their claims that it's a good diet. There's literally thousands of athletes that eat meat. The ones that don't are in the minority. If Lewis felt better on a vegan diet then good for him, but whatever. Usain Bolt ate a McDonalds before he broke the 100m world record.

There's nothing particulalrly "wrong" with eating meat, or not eating meat. The bitchy arguments go nowhere.

You can be a healthy meat eater and you can be a healthy vegetarian or vegan. Neither diet is superior.

If there WAS a superior diet, we'd all be eating that way. Unfortunately, there isn't.

[razlyubleno]

Who fucked up the page formatting?

But to be on topic, I try to not eat meat, but that doesn't always go according to plan. I think it's dictated by my mood, basically. On my good days, I'm a bleeding-heart who feels the pain of the poor widdle bunny wabbits, but good days are not the most common type. Also, I don't think it makes you healthier, I don't think we were designed to be herbivores (since we clearly weren't "designed" in the first place), and I don't preach vegetarianism to people because I'm lazy and I just don't care enough.

So how come there's no option in that poll for me? How about a "I'm a vegetarian when I'm not in a hurry" option? I'd click that.

razly

[scovegner]

Vegan.
Coupl'a facts .. *Digs into livestock's long shadow fer some stats*
Animal agriculture is responsible for 17% of anthropogenic carbon emissions, compared to approximately 13% for transport ..
A good varied vegan diet will need approximately 700 square meters of land to grow the food on, a typical European omnivorous diet will need about 9 times as much, 6300 square meters of land ..
There is 148,940,000 square kilometers of land on the earth.
Approximately 23% of this is fertile enough land suitable to grow crops upon.
Leaving us with 34256200 square kilometers of land, 34256200000000 square meters.
The April 2009 estimate of world population is around 6.77 billion people.
Giving each of us a 'share' of 5060m square meters of land, this doesn't really take into account accessibility, wilderness areas left aside, forestry, other necessary land use etc ..
Indicating that meat use simply is NOT sustainable for the majority of the population in the long term, and part of my values is a respect for ALL life and the preservation of wilderness areas, and these two things are simply incompatible with each other ..
And beef typically takes 64 times protein->protein feed->meat, and shitloads of water too .. chicken is about 6 times as much so not quite as bad but still shitloads considering both are normally grain based feed - fed animals for at least part of their diet ..

Considering 'natural', I can probably see it being as humans having a largely plant based diet for the large majority, with small amounts of meat supplemental to that, although imho arguing over what's 'natural' or not is bullshit as anything could be defined as 'natural' if we so wish .. and tbh the human body is built pretty solidly so can digest pretty much whatever we put into it ..
Just thought I'd work out the calculations properly to give a solid basis, might as well post here at the same time :) .. hopefully it doesn't come across as preachiness or anything.

Mostly it's just a personal thing that works well for me really, but what really pisses me off is people who don't know the nearest thing about even where on the animal their meat comes from, just a little package on a supermarket shelf, just so far removed from hunting and killing your own meat quickly with it being the only major encounter it's had with a human and butchering, cooking then eating it yourself, which I've been around before, of course it's not a great thing to do but I'd support anyone who chose to do that instead of picking up some intensively farmed beef
from a supermarket shelf .. But I say 'If I wouldn't do it myself then I'm not going to get other people to do it for me', and honestly I can't say that I would be able to, so I don't ..

And vegan vs. vegetarian, not only are you using their products, a lot of which do cause direct harm and suffering to the animals, you're also putting money into an industry which in the end WILL kill every single one of those animals, especially the males of the species which are often killed days after they're born simply because there is no profitability in raising them for meat ..

[Nero]

This is, I fear, typical of the obnoxious, self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude of many vegans. Granted, it IS a healthier and more humane lifestyle.

That said, the rampant ego-tripping and arrogance which so often accompanies it is fatal to spiritual growth.

Alzheimers much?

I never said there was anything wrong with eating meat. Go ahead and eat it.

I wear leather belts, I litter and I don't recycle. I'm truly apathetic when it comes to animal rights/environmental issues.

It's just that, fuck, it's a body you're eating. That's like...Flesh, blood, muscle.

It's really no different from eating a human, in a physical sense.

In short; it's ewwy.

[sdmf_from_hell]

Larry the Lamb says:

"Don't be gay, eat my meat!"

http://sheep.youssouf.com/sheeplog/blogimages/sheep_transported_on_motorcycle.gif

[PieGirl]

meat is yummy
yummy yummy meat
om nom.

plus there is not one single vegetable that I like...
none. Not even fake ones like tomatoes.
Though I like ketchup.

I like fruit and pasta and other non meaty things but I would probably wither away...

[Terrestrial Mass]

Like or not, we evolved as omnivores (ask a dentist if you're unsure about that).


Apes (animals we were said to evolve from) are fruitarians and they have pointed fang teeth like us, which were only used for intimidation. Fang teeth used only for this purpose is actually pretty common among herbivores. The rest of our teeth are shaped more like ones of an herbivore (flat and square for grinding rather than all sharp and pointed for ripping). I don't know what your dentist is telling you....

[Mullen]

Apes (animals we were said to evolve from) are fruitarians and they have pointed fang teeth like us, which were only used for intimidation.

Yep, they intimidated the hell out of this red colobus.

http://tolweb.org/tree/ToLimages/chimp_pred2.jpg

[DarkMage35]

I'm lactose intolerant so I'm pretty much a forced vegan. I eat cheese occasionally, but only if I take a lactaid :o

I wouldn't say we're more evolved.No, that just means youre stupid. Try a paleo diet.

All vegetarians who arent that way for medical reasons are either ignorant or stupid (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html).

[PROJECT PAT]

I was a real vegetarian ,ie a vegan, until I almost died of it -from vitamin deficiency. And before any pasty carrot sucker says "vitamin supplements", that rather proves the point that vegetarianism is both unnatural and unhealthy. A good diet needs no supplement does it?

You're really stupid.

No, I'm not.

[sdmf_from_hell]

You're really stupid.

No, I'm not.

explain.

[Anima Mundi]

Pat is a troll. It is best you ignore him whenever you see him.

[skinny love]

All vegetarians who arent that way for medical reasons are either ignorant or stupid (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html).

all people who don't like the color blue are ignorant or stupid.


oh wait, you're a fucking retard.

[scovegner]

No, that just means youre stupid. Try a paleo diet.

All vegetarians who arent that way for medical reasons are either ignorant or stupid (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html).

Wow don't think I've seen so much bullshit on a page in a long time .. could go through it 'point by point' if you wish but'd probably just take up more page space ..

[Dream of the iris]

Breatharian — This is more a non-diet as breatharians believe they can survive without eating at all, getting the nutrients and energy their bodies need from the air they breathe.

Jeez.

In the realm of extreme unlikeliness, however, there are stories of some Indian holy men who some claimed to be able to survive off sunlight/breathing.

[blerrh]

Apes (animals we were said to evolve from) are fruitarians and they have pointed fang teeth like us, which were only used for intimidation. Fang teeth used only for this purpose is actually pretty common among herbivores. The rest of our teeth are shaped more like ones of an herbivore (flat and square for grinding rather than all sharp and pointed for ripping). I don't know what your dentist is telling you....

We are apes. Actually chimps hunt and eat meat and are omnivores. Bonobos eat fruit and gorillas eat plants. Guess which one is more closely related to us?

[DarkMage35]

Wow don't think I've seen so much bullshit on a page in a long time .. could go through it 'point by point' if you wish but'd probably just take up more page space ..Please do. I havent gone through it 100% myself yet, but it seems to be mostly accurate, with some small inaccuracies about the extent of antinutrients and such (theyre in grains, legumes and potatos, not so much fruit and vegetables). At least youre not resorting to ad hominem like skinny love.

[Dog]

I was a real vegetarian ,ie a vegan, until I almost died of it -from vitamin deficiency. And before any pasty carrot sucker says "vitamin supplements", that rather proves the point that vegetarianism is both unnatural and unhealthy. A good diet needs no supplement does it?

ROFL. You spew shit 24/7 about other people being pussies, dumb, etc. and you were a vegetarian/vegan. The irony is brilliant.

----

I'm an omnivore and damn happy about it. Why would I want to limit myself to only plant products? I mean, shit, you could probably fill a library with delicious meat-based dishes, and yet people still choose to forgo all that wonderful food. I find all reasons for being a vegetarian/vegan to be utterly retarded. Ethical reasons? Bah, animals killing other animals for food is the circle of life. Until we're wiping a given species out from over-hunting them, I really don't see any issue. Health reasons? Bullshit. Our bodies aren't even equipped to properly digest many types of plant material, and as our resident dumbass ketch pointed out, it's easy to become malnourished without meat.

[skinny love]

Please do. I havent gone through it 100% myself yet, but it seems to be mostly accurate, with some small inaccuracies about the extent of antinutrients and such (theyre in grains, legumes and potatos, not so much fruit and vegetables). At least youre not resorting to ad hominem like skinny love.

how is calling vegetarians stupid and ignorant not ad hominem?:rolleyes:

if i don't like the taste of meat, how is it ignorant or stupid for me to be a healthy vegetarian? please explain this to me. until then, you're a retard.

[Dog]

if i don't like the taste of meat, how is it ignorant or stupid for me to be a healthy vegetarian? please explain this to me. until then, you're a retard.

Given all the different types of meat and the thousands of preparations, I think that's very possibly just bullshit. Plus, there are vegetables that also have a "meat-like" taste, and that's not even including the intentional fake stuff like "soy burgers".

[DarkMage35]

how is calling vegetarians stupid and ignorant not ad hominem?:rolleyes:

if i don't like the taste of meat, how is it ignorant or stupid for me to be a healthy vegetarian? please explain this to me. until then, you're a retard.Oh, so youre just incapable of recognising a link when it smacks you in the face. My mistake.

[Animal Farm Pig]

I was thinking about where I stand on things a bit more. I don't like the killing or enslavement of animals. I think it's wrong. However, I don't put it at the same level as rape, murder, etc. I'll put eating meat or using animal products at the level of lying to one's spouse or shop lifting. It's something that is wrong, and I wouldn't want to make a habit out of it. But, well, sometimes it's necessary or the easiest solution, and I won't be wracked by guilt for it.

[scovegner]

Please do.

Sure ..

The road to vegetarianism often starts in college. Most professed vegetarians are in the twenty-six to thirty-five age group with comparatively few under twenty or over forty.
As an example, I went vegetarian when I was 10 and vegan when I was 14 ..


The human population of this planet is now approaching six billion and, even if every country on Earth enforced a strict and effective birth-control policy today, it is estimated that the total population will climb to fifteen billion before stabilising. The Earth's total land area is 179,941,270 square kilometres (69,479,518 square miles). A little simple mathematics tells us that at present, on average, one square kilometre has to support just over thirty-three people. If all of it were cultivated, that would certainly be possible.

In fact, this would be more of an argument for veg*nism, as often perfectly fertile farmable land is used primarily for animal agriculture and the crops that feed them ..

The argument fails, however, because not all of it is available for arable cultivation. The main environmental factors which determine plant development and distribution are climate and soil type. We can discount the whole of the unproductive continent of Antarctica, so that reduces the total by 13,335,740 square kilometres immediately. We can also discount, at least as far as arable farming is concerned, all other ice-covered areas, tundra, mountains, deserts, heath and moor land, areas covered by rivers, salt marshes and lakes, cities, roads, and railways; and to a large extent semi-deserts, savannah, rain forest, low-lying meadow land and areas liable to regular flooding. We have now discounted most of the Earth's surface. In fact, only eleven percent of the land surface is farmed.

There you go, 11%, lower than the figure I had worked out, but just quickly calculated it (23%/(5060/700)) and turns out that the land needed for a universal vegan diet would be about 3%, of course it'll probably be more than that in reality but there's plenty of margin ..

Almost all of the land we have just discounted does support grass or other plant life which we cannot utilise directly. We need a system which converts that grass into a form of food that we can eat.
This is the point where I totally disagree. First, as shown above we really don't need it, and imho land isn't there solely for us to use, and a goal should really be to reduce our land use for environmental reasons and simple sustainability rather than exploiting it 'because it is there'. Although that is a whole other argument which you may disagree with ..

Take New Zealand, for example. Here we have a country of 269,000 square kilometres — larger than Great Britain — with a human population of 3 million, a sheep population of 42 million (see figure 1) and many cattle. When I was in New Zealand for three months in Spring 1999, I didn't see one field of grain. It wasn't surprising: as the ground is rarely flat and the volcanic rock on which New Zealand is built is very close to the surface, that country is quite unsuitable for the cultivation of grain (see figure 2). And the same applies to many other parts of the world.
I'm not really sure about the particular case of new zealand as I haven't looked into it much, but there must be areas of land there that have fertility by rivers etc, as said it's volcanic so the ash should be at least reasonable fertility, I doubt it's less than 3% of the land ..
No reasonable diet is 100% meat, so new zealanders must have to get food from somewhere? If it is grown at home then it can be done, if it is flown in then nothing would be changed, it'd hardly be a worse off situation ..
At present one-third of the world's population is starving. If we all became vegetarians, we would have no use for, and would stop farming, all the land that will support only food animals.
Exactly. Why does this land have to be used by humans?

But taking all the land that supports food animals, but cannot support arable farming, out of production is hardly likely to ease the problem. In many areas where animals are farmed, they are the only things which can be farmed. In these areas, therefore, animal farming is the most efficient use of the land.
With new techniques such as permaculture, clever combinations of crops or planting stuff that doesn't require shitloads of nutrients such as hemp and flax, stuff can be grown in most places, although I would argue that we shouldn't do so ..

n many areas with naturally low productive capability, irrigation is used to increase agricultural productivity. But irrigation carries with it the seeds of its own destruction. Semi-arid soils are characteristically salty. The irrigation water, from essentially the same area, is also usually saline. Without adequate drainage, the irrigation water seeps into the soil and raises the water table. This brings the underlying water nearer the surface where it evaporates more freely, leaving behind the salty chemicals. In time, the salts of sodium, magnesium and calcium clog the pores in the soil and leave a whitish bloom on the surface. This process not only destroys the soil structure so that yields fall, it leads eventually to a level of salinity where no plant can grow. Kovda estimates that between sixty and eighty percent of all irrigated land, that is millions of acres, is being transformed into deserts in this way.
Agreed, this is why irrigation water shouldn't be taken from saline sources .. can still be done on a smaller scale, which is all that's really needed, from freshwater river sources ..
Most of the world's surface is not covered by land, but by the oceans and seas. At present, millions of tonnes of fish are caught or farmed each year. As well as not eating meat, many vegetarians don't eat fish. If vegetarianism really caught on and everybody on the planet stopped eating fish, the two-thirds of the population who are not starving at present would soon join the third who are.

Not really sure where they get it at this point, but it is quite unsustainable to farm fish and there's already HUGE problems with overfishing just about everywhere ..
The UK's major livestock production is sheep, which are reared in almost every part of the kingdom. If we all became vegetarians, the mountains of Wales and Scotland would become largely unproductive, as would the moorlands of central and northern England.
Every time I go up into the highlands here it's a fucking pity; all the hills are totally stripped bare of any life apart from just heather, the areas without sheep are easily recognizable as there's small trees, shrubs, etc growing up .. imho some land should just be left alone or managed sustainably ..

We would not eat the 720,000 tonnes of fish caught each year — over 12.7kg (28 lbs) per head. If we all became vegetarians, how much more food would we have to import?
Less in fact, as we can use our existing land more efficiently without the use of animal agriculture ..

and where would it come from? The USA and Canada, who are net exporters of grain, might seem to be the answer to the latter question, although our food import bill — already £6 billion per annum — would rise alarmingly. If they too became vegetarian, however, they too would need to import.

See above
No: if we all became vegetarians, make no mistake, we would starve.
Now that ^ is just total bullshit ..
For many lacto-ovo-vegetarians, the killing of animals is a problem. On moral grounds some are tending to change to eating fish — although the logic whereby the killing of fish is considered correct if the killing of land animals is not, escapes me. They are encouraged in this change by the belief that the eating of fish is what has allowed the Japanese to live longer and that it is good for them. Wanting to be healthy themselves, they buy sea fish like cod, sea bass, red snapper and haddock. But these are not the 'healthy', omega-3-oil bearing fish that doctors are advising us to eat.
Agreed, and they would not be vegetarians ..
Fish stocks are declining. Cod used to be a cheap fish. It is presently £7.70 per kilogramme, — over £2 more than farmed salmon. As prices reflect the laws of supply and demand, this can mean only one thing: there is a shortage of cod. Cod is not the only fish that is scarce around Britain, so are haddock, wild salmon and monkfish. It is the same story world-wide. The one fish which is plentiful now is the North-Sea herring.
Exactly, showing how ocean fishing is unsustainable ..
This does contain omega-3 oils and, with the mackerel, is good for us. Yes, omega oils can be quite healthy, which can also be found in good quantities and ratios in crops such as flax and hemp .. However fish are very efficient bioaccumulators through their long food chain and can pick up levels of harmful chemical such as mercury, pregnant women are often advised not to eat fish because of this ..
The fish for which we have rejected herring is tuna from the Pacific and other exotic species [...] managing their fish stocks properly and the problem of over-fishing is spiralling out of control.
Agreed.
Fishermen's methods have been likened to farming. But they are centuries behind: where the farmer sows and reaps, the fisherman, like the primitive hunter-gatherer, only reaps. He does not use his resources nearly as efficiently as the land farmer.
Agreed.
Without fish, we would be hard pressed in this island for sufficient high-quality food. We need fish
Disagreed.
but we will only exacerbate the problem of over-fishing if we switch from meat to fish — from efficient animal farming to inefficient and wasteful fishing.
Agreed.
A question frequently posed by vegetarians is: how can you justify killing an innocent animal for food? This question may seem difficult to answer at first but really it is not. Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.
Well this is a matter of opinion really, I just believe that animals are comparable to us and clearly show pain, suffering and conscience so should be respected in those regards ..
Crop agriculture, even if inveterbrates are excluded, is devastating to small amphibians, reptiles, nesting birds and mammals. Even the occasional larger mammal is injured during the cropping process. Unavoidably, the plow destroys burrows and young. Harvest machines kill some animals directly and expose others to the tender mercies of predators. Many times, I have watched as coyotes and hawks follow my tractor feasting on the victims of the plow and reaper [hey, but it is nice for these predators].

Really, how could it be otherwise? Vegetables and cereals are the foods of many animals. For rodents, crops are a real bonanza in terms of food and shelter. They multiply rapidly which only increases the tally during field preparation and harvest.

To my thinking, there is little question that raising animals for meat, especially if they are not fattened with agricultural products, is far less devastating to animal life than is agriculture. If one acre of land produces one sheep a year for slaughter, one life is taken. If one acre of land is put into cereal production the cost in just mammalian life can be measured in the dozens or more.

Of course, animal death due to cropping is "invisible" and therefore doesn't happen. Lamb chops in the market are visible and vegetarians weep for the victim. I know that these realities have no impact on animal-rights types -— they are not nearly so concerned with animal death and suffering as they are with animal death and suffering due to deliberate human actions. Their emphasis is, in fact, not on animal welfare but on the control of other human beings.
This is more an objection to large scale mechanized agriculture, but overall the reduction in deaths is still much greater, also remember that a lot of animals are grain fed so also cause more damage through this than the crops alone. Also these are unintentional deaths to pests, most people would stop a rat running around their house if there was one ..
Vegetarianism is unnatural. This is not a modern finding. The Bible gives us evidence of this, and clues that vegetarianism was not regarded with favour. In Genesis , Chapter Four, Eve bears Cain and Abel. 'And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.' That 'but' in the middle of the sentence is the first clue to disapproval. This disapproval is confirmed by verses three to five. Abel and Cain bring offerings to God: Abel of his sheep and Cain, the fruits of the ground. God, we are told, had respect for Abel's carnivorous offering, but He had no respect for Cain's vegetarian one.
IMHO the bible is bullshit anyway, and this is just twisting the words of it to fit a particular circumstance ..
To determine what foods are likely to make up an ideal diet for us as a species, we must look further back, at our evolutionary history.[...]
As said before, natural is not necessarily 'right' in any way; many species rape and murder others of their own, but does that make it in any way right? IMHO probably the closest to a 'natural profile' would be a largely vegetable, fruit etc based diet with meat in small amounts as supplemental to it, but we're hugely removed from nature as it is anyway so it's hardly any change ..
Two means only are available to make them digestible: cooking and grinding.
Which are both extremely easy to do with quite simple tools ..
About half our brain and nervous system is composed of complicated, long-chain, fatty acid molecules. The walls of our blood vessels also need them. Without them we cannot develop normally. These fatty acids do not occur in plants.
They do occur in many plants, as said below ..
Fatty acids in a simpler form do but they must be converted into the long-chain molecules by animals — which is a slow, time-consuming process. This is where the herbivores come in. Over the year, they convert the simple fatty acids found in grasses and seeds into intermediate, more complicated forms that we can convert into the ones that we need.
Which we do quite effectively ..
The vegetarian will be dismayed to learn that while soya bean is rich in complete protein, and grains and nuts also combine to provide complete proteins, none contains the fats that are essential for proper brain development.
Many contain the necessary fats as said before, the body is perfectly able to synthesize all it needs from the short chain and/or long chain fatty acids available from plant sources ..
The second investigation (10) concerned the inedibility of many of today's plant foods in the raw state which contain many anti-nutrients that can damage a wide variety of human physiological systems. These antinutrients include alkylrescorcinols, alpha-amylase inhitors, protease inhibitors, etc. These must be broken down by cooking, and cooking for a long time, before they can be eaten safely. Beans and other legumes although rich in both carbohydrate and protein, also contain protease inhibitors. Starchy roots — yams and cassava — are common staples today, but if not well cooked are very toxic indeed. The cassava even contains cyanide which must be oxidised by heat to make it safe to eat. And apart from the anti-nutrients above, the starch in cereals — wheat, rice, barley, oats, and rye — are also inedible in quantity if not cooked first. Cooking causes the starch granules in the flour to swell and be disrupted by a process called gelatinization Without this the starch much less accessible to digestion by pancreatic amylase.
Sure, some plants are toxic when not cooked, but a large amount of them simply are not and can be consumed whole raw, just about all fruits for example .. That's no reason not to use them when cooked, meat needs to be cooked too right?
There is no doubt whatsoever that we cannot be a vegetarian species. From at least the time that Homo erectus appeared in the cold Eurasian continent some 500,000 years ago, we must have lived on and adapted to a diet almost exclusively of meat.
{citation needed}
All this evidence points to our being pure carnivores, as are the big cats. However, we are a remarkably successful species. It is unlikely that we would have been quite so successful if we had been forced to rely on only one source of food. It is obvious from archaeological remains that we tended to be more opportunist eaters. We hunted and ate meat primarily but, if meat was in short supply, we would eat almost anything — so long as it did not require cooking. This still precluded some of the roots and most of the legumes and cereals that we eat today. When meat was in short supply, we got our protein from nuts and ate fruits and berries. During our evolution, therefore, when we lived well, our diet was high in protein and fat: during lean times it was richer in carbohydrates.
Not sure I really agree totally, but as has been said the human body can perfectly well survive on many other foods, it's not necessary to eat meat, I've been fine without it for years ..
As vegetable foods made up an increasing proportion of our diet and intakes of meat declined, so our height also declined. European, meat-eating Homo erectus erectus of 30,000 years ago was some 150 mm (6 inches) taller than his agricultural descendants. Indeed, even today we are still shorter than they were. We see the same pattern in North America. The Paleoindian hunters of 10,000 years ago were much taller than their farming descendants at the time of European conquests of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries AD.
I thought it was totally the other way round? Even if so, so what?
There is no evidence of nutritional diseases before the advent of agriculture. After it, there is. The cereal crops that became the modern staples, together with root crops which began to be cultivated, are all relatively deficient in protein and the B vitamins.
B vitamins can be found in plentiful quantities from unchlorinated water, many fermented sources etc etc, protein-beans?!
[...] Cooking can also destroy some nutrients: Vitamin C is a good example. Thus nutrients, which might be present when food is 'natural', are lost and their correct balance may also be lost.

Cooking food, therefore, may cause changes to which the body's systems are not entirely adapted and which, as a consequence, may cause us minor problems.
Which is why there should be a good balance of cooked and raw food ..
Vitamin B12 stuff
B12 is available from many non-animal sources; direct fermentation, natural water/vegetables, anywhere where some number of bacteria can survive, as mentioned it's already added to foods anyway so not much change .. Incidentally statistically there is no higher incidence of B12 deficiency in vegans ..
Have you noticed the increasing numbers of occasions when small groups of very militant people demonstrate against all sorts of things: animal experiments, butchers' shops, new roads, footpaths, nuclear power stations, civil rights, homosexuals' rights or anybody else's rights. The odds are that the majority are vegetarians.
That's a whole different issue, personally I support them totally but others may not in any way, just because they're veg*n doesn't mean a causual relationship in any way shape or form, probably more that they've had the sense to think for themselves and see things that have gone wrong .. all those things mentioned are imho worth campaigning for ..
If the mother is deficient in vitamin B-12, for example, this deficiency is passed onto the breast-fed child (20) with unfortunate consequences.
See above.
With the more extreme macrobiotic diets the situation is even worse. Serious brain damage is seen in children on macrobiotic diets where it was found that " Vitamin B-12 is sufficiently low as to have psychological consequences that also raise legitimate concerns about neurological development " (21) . Other research confirms the depth of the problem. Mental development of four- to five-year-old children on macrobiotic diets (almost devoid of animal foods and fat) with long-term growth deficits, was studied. In addition food consumption and behavioural style of the children, and family and parent characteristics were assessed. Children had only seventy percent of the energy and forty percent of the calcium intake of that reported for children on conventional diets. Thirty three percent of the children studied failed to finish IQ tests due to an inability to concentrate (22) .
Not particularly sure about macrobiotic diets, but that is a study of the children with growth deficits, which is hardly indicative of the whole population of them ...
Many people become vegetarians because they believe that such a lifestyle is healthier, particularly in terms of heart disease and cancer. They believe that an intake of meat, and particularly animal fat, will shorten their lives. As evidence of this, a study of largely vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists is usually quoted (32) despite the fact that its authors conclude: ' We hope that no-one will take data from this report and use it to say "Food A lowers or food B raises mortality risk". ' It is certainly true that this religious sect suffers less from heart disease than the general population. However, the use of this argument to show that vegetarianism is healthier is flawed. A similar study of Mormons in Utah, who eat a considerable amount of meat, found similar low levels of the disease. In fact, the diet of both communities had little or no impact on their incidences of heart disease; the incidences of the disease is low because they are both close-knit and supportive communities, a situation which is known to be protective as far as such diseases are concerned (33) .
Can't remember the specifics of that particular study, but as I remember it was comparing meat eaters and veg*ns inside the sect, not compared to outwith, if so it'd be pretty correct and if not, well, not :)
A study by Drs. W. S. McClellan and E. F. Du Bois (35) found that the Eskimos in Baffin Island and Greenland living on a diet composed almost entirely of meat and fish, and eating no starchy or sugary foods, suffered few diseases.
They are also extremely isolated from anyone else or other animals who'd have the chance of being carriers of disease, total separate factor ..
ther evidence refutes the 'vegetarianism is healthier' dogma. London has a high proportion of Asian immigrants. They live in the same environment as the indigenous population and mix freely with them. But the incidence of coronary artery disease is much higher in the Asian population. A study published in 1985 (38) was pretty conclusive evidence that the Asian's diet — high in linoleic acid and predominantly vegetarian — was not protective against the disease.
Correlation is not causation, this is correlating two totally unrelated factors and trying to make it look like causation ..
Diseases such as salmonella are usually associated in people's minds, with meat, particularly chicken. But vegetarianism doesn't necessarily protect against such bacterial infections. In 1999, Minerva in the British Medical Journal reported that "alfalfa sprouts, the icon of healthy eaters everywhere, are efficient carriers of salmonella ( JAMA 1999;281:158-62). International detective work led investigators of one North American outbreak in 1995 to a single contaminated seed lot from a Dutch distributor. They estimate that over 20 000 people were infected during the prolonged outbreak and warn that alfalfa sprouts should be considered high risk until the commercial sprouting process incorporates an effective 'kill step'."
Not mentioned is where the salmonella comes from, almost all the salmonella outbreaks in food are from using infected manure or from contamination with infected meat/products ..
[..] Soybeans also contain other undesirable chemicals:

¨ Potent enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin, a digestive enzyme needed to digest proteins. This leads not only to chronic amino acid deficiencies but also to enlargement of the pancreas (in animals) and cancer.

¨ Hemaglutinin, which promotes the clumping of red blood cells. These clumped cells are less able to take up oxygen and carry it to body tissues. Hemaglutinin is also known to retard growth.

Fermentation reduces these harmful effects. Miso and tamari are fermented soy products.[...]

First off, as said fermentation reduces these effects, and soya really isn't needed, it forms a very small part of my diet looking at it, they're making the naive assumption that all veg*ns eat soy all the time ..
For the most part, it is the more extreme forms of vegetarianism that are dangerous. Lacto-ovo-vegetarianism carries little or no health risk for its adult adherents (although there may still be risk for children if a bulky, high-fibre, low-fat/protein diet is fed). In this category are those who have given up meat for moral reasons: those who don't like the thought of the slaughter of food animals, but do continue to eat milk, cheese and eggs. Here we have the situation where people who cannot bear the thought of killing animals for food, rely on the rest of us to carry the burden of guilt for them — as the production of milk, cheese and eggs inevitably involves the birth and the death of animals.

A cow produces milk for about one year. Before she can give milk, however, like any other mammal she has to have a calf. If we are not to eat those calves, what are we to do with them? Some, of course, would be kept to produce milk themselves in the fullness of time, but what of the rest — the bull calves and the excess heifers — indeed the majority? Could we, perhaps, just keep them, unproductive, on pasture for the rest of their natural lives? Well, no, that would be quite impractical. We cannot afford the land to keep unproductive animals in any quantity. We could, of course, kill them at birth, but that surely, makes the whole exercise pointless. The same goes for the other animals.

The vegetarian is in the dilemma that he can't kill animals — yet he cannot afford to let them live. So the vegetarian conveniently puts this out of his mind, carries on his unnatural lifestyle, relying selfishly on the meat eaters to solve his dilemma for him.
Agreed, one of the many reasons I'm vegan ..
In Britain today, it is difficult, if not impossible to find a British cheese that is not 'suitable for vegetarians'. In traditional cheeses, the curdling agent, rennet, is an animal product. So vegetarians don't want it. However, the rennet used in cheeses that are 'suitable for vegetarians' is a product made from genetically modified soy. I wonder how many realise this?
Again, agreed.



I've probably missed out some stuff there, mostly just the random studies that I haven't looked into the circumstances and not making any reasonable conclusions without them ..

[sdmf_from_hell]

tl;dr

Eat Meat.

[Dog]

I was thinking about where I stand on things a bit more. I don't like the killing or enslavement of animals. I think it's wrong. However, I don't put it at the same level as rape, murder, etc. I'll put eating meat or using animal products at the level of lying to one's spouse or shop lifting. It's something that is wrong, and I wouldn't want to make a habit out of it. But, well, sometimes it's necessary or the easiest solution, and I won't be wracked by guilt for it.

So, all of the other carnivores and omnivores are committing morally bad acts, and should be herbivores?

[Mantikore]

I eat meat because Sam Motherfucking Neill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9SuABGeeb8) told me too. Now, you see, Sam Motherfucking Neill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9SuABGeeb8) has faced off against commies, witches and tyrannosaurus rexes, so im going to have to agree with Sam Motherfucking Neill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9SuABGeeb8).
:mad:


Plus, he dances
:)

[Vizier]

Food chain motherfuckers, ever heard of it? It's only natural.

[Dark Feather]

Well i ave been vegan all my life.
To jakketh: I have better blood reports than most of my non vegan friends. You never really ate anything, that must ave been your problem.

[skinny love]

Oh, so youre just incapable of recognising a link when it smacks you in the face. My mistake.

your second mistake was avoiding my second question. if i don't like meat, how is it stupid or ignorant for me to be a healthy vegetarian?

[ayingerbrau]

http://governing.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/arnold_1.jpg

Arnold says: "Eat meat."

[Animal Farm Pig]

So, all of the other carnivores and omnivores are committing morally bad acts, and should be herbivores?

Yes-- including animals.

[DarkMage35]

your second mistake was avoiding my second question. if i don't like meat, how is it stupid or ignorant for me to be a healthy vegetarian?No, my first and only mistake was it slipping my mind that my statement more applies to vegans then vegetarians, but whatever.

The answer to your question depends on the amount of eggs/milk in your diet. And whether youve actually tried all kinds of meat available to you. If youre getting enough B12 and such, and it is genuinely purely a taste thing (I doubt it), and you really dont like ANY variety of meat, no matter how its cooked, then I'll write you off as a freak of nature rather then stupid/ignorant. Sound good?


Scovegner, you probably have a point with the amount of land required to support universal veganism. I'm having trouble finding good statistics on the subject, but that site does appear to be off with its figures. The problem of effective distribution hasnt been brought up yet, which would complicate things... The fact about some land being unsuitable for crops yet suitable for animals stands, although its not really an argument for either side unless you consider distribution and economics. Honestly I've never really considered all the ramifications of omnivore vs vegetarian in terms of farming resources needed/available, and as such it doesnt really factor in to why I think vegetarianism/veganism is stupid.

This is the point where I totally disagree. First, as shown above we really don't need it, and imho land isn't there solely for us to use, and a goal should really be to reduce our land use for environmental reasons and simple sustainability rather than exploiting it 'because it is there'. Although that is a whole other argument which you may disagree with ..

Exactly. Why does this land have to be used by humans?Why does the land have to be not used by humans (assuming its used sustainably)? Youre right, it is a whole other argument. I prefer to leave philosophy out of my food, myself.

Not really sure where they get it at this point, but it is quite unsustainable to farm fish and there's already HUGE problems with overfishing just about everywhere ..

Exactly, showing how ocean fishing is unsustainable ..Slight correction: its quite unsustainable to farm fish on the scale which we are doing now. Sustainable fishing is possible, its just we're overdoing the fishing part and underdoing the waiting/farming part at the moment.

A question frequently posed by vegetarians is: how can you justify killing an innocent animal for food? This question may seem difficult to answer at first but really it is not. Would it be reasonable to ask a lion to justify his killing of an innocent gazelle? Of course not: it is natural for the lion to kill the gazelle and that is justification enough. And what of a gazelle's right not to be eaten? Put this way, you can see that such questions are really meaningless. The same is true for us, for we are not a vegetarian species.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Well this is a matter of opinion really, I just believe that animals are comparable to us and clearly show pain, suffering and conscience so should be respected in those regards ..Agreed. However, killing other animals is a natural part of life, as the article says. The difference between us and the lion is that we are able to kill with a minimum of pain after a comfortable (till that point) life, if we choose. So we should respect other animals by doing so. Incidently, this is largely why being a vegetarian for ethical reasons is stupid.

The other ethical reason of objecting to farming practices is also stupid, because such a vegetarian is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, giving up meat entirely instead of the logical step of watching where they get their meat from.

IMHO the bible is bullshit anyway, and this is just twisting the words of it to fit a particular circumstance ..Agreed. Doesnt really mean anything.

As said before, natural is not necessarily 'right' in any way; many species rape and murder others of their own, but does that make it in any way right? IMHO probably the closest to a 'natural profile' would be a largely vegetable, fruit etc based diet with meat in small amounts as supplemental to it, but we're hugely removed from nature as it is anyway so it's hardly any change ..The closest to "natural profile" would probably be pretty much anything and everything that can be eaten raw safely, with the ratio between meat and nonmeat determined by other factors, like location, season, luck, skill, tools and so forth. This is largely what a paleo diet tries to emulate.

Sure, some plants are toxic when not cooked, but a large amount of them simply are not and can be consumed whole raw, just about all fruits for example .. That's no reason not to use them when cooked, meat needs to be cooked too right?As I said, I'd already noticed the discrepancies here. The toxic plants are pretty much legumes, grains and potatos. And meat doesnt actually need to be cooked at all. Its just part cultural preference, part to make pathogen safety easier. Pasteurisation of milk is a similar issue.

{citation needed}They would obviously be referring to the last glacial period and its effect on the ratio of available plant/animal food. Not exactly my field of expertise.

I thought it was totally the other way round? Even if so, so what?Here you would be wrong. Specifically, they would be referring to the start of neolithic farming and grain/legume intake. The cause was the antinutrients involved.


I'm getting too tired for this... Perhaps in the morning I might start writing out my thought and arguments in the first place instead of looking up a random website that has them, but inevitably also has a bunch of misinformation to go with it. Or perhaps I'll continue being paradoxically lazy. Its more fun this way. :p

[Anima Mundi]

So is anything usefull going to actually come up in this thread, or is it just going to be mostly a bunch of guys who think that because they eat meat they are MANLY!1!, coming in and yelling at vegans about it?

EDIT- and right after a decent post against the vegetarians. Damn.

[Eridani]

I was a real vegetarian ,ie a vegan, until I almost died of it -from vitamin deficiency. And before any pasty carrot sucker says "vitamin supplements", that rather proves the point that vegetarianism is both unnatural and unhealthy. A good diet needs no supplement does it?

Well obviously you weren't on a good diet. Millions of people do survive on a vegetarian diet (I don't agree with veganism - so if that's what you are ciriticising then ignore this) - Hindus and so on for example. Most vegetarians realise you need to compensate for the vitamins/protein you lose from not eating meat.

[Animal Farm Pig]

...killing other animals is a natural part of life...

Dogs hump legs. Humping legs is natural. Nobody minds if I hump their leg. :rolleyes:

[Dog]

Yes-- including animals.

You are a complete moron.

:facepalm:

[jackketch]

Most vegetarians realise you need to compensate for the vitamins/protein you lose from not eating meat.

So it isn't a healthy diet and they are by definition unhealthy.

Oh and btw I was taking supplements but you see supplements don't actually work very well and the amounts of alcohol I was drinking just rinsed them out of my body faster than I could absorb.

[ArmsMerchant]

doesn't vegetarian mean faggot?

BTW--this is the type of off-topic and mean-spirited post that i tend to delete or infract (if repeated).

Back to topic--if one is considering a specific type of diet, I suggest he consult "Eat Right For Your Type." For some of us, beef is quite wholesome, and soy products are somewhat toxic.

[Anima Mundi]

this is the type of off-topic and mean-spirited post

What post now? I delete them as well, usually 2 or 3 per thread.

[neil420]

Damn, people seem to care so much for cows and chickens. They are here to be eaten, plain and simple. You guys care so much about killing cows and shit, but there are much bigger problems in this world. Oh and healthy, why in the world would you have to take supplements if it is a healthy diet? Kinda contradicts itself. Granted, over indulging in anything is unhealthy, but within limits it is completely safe and natural. And all this cow mutilation/murder being slammed down my throat. Well call me inhumane because I honestly don't give a flying fuck. Sorry, it's a fucking cow/chicken, you really get all defensive of these poor animals. But what about the poor people of Sierra Leone/most of africa being slaughtered daily? I can more easily identify with these people, yes actual people suffering, not some animals grazing in a field that know nothing of life and death.

[elf omg]

Damn, people seem to care so much for cows and chickens. They are here to be eaten, plain and simple. You guys care so much about killing cows and shit, but there are much bigger problems in this world. Oh and healthy, why in the world would you have to take supplements if it is a healthy diet? Kinda contradicts itself. Granted, over indulging in anything is unhealthy, but within limits it is completely safe and natural. And all this cow mutilation/murder being slammed down my throat. Well call me inhumane because I honestly don't give a flying fuck. Sorry, it's a fucking cow/chicken, you really get all defensive of these poor animals. But what about the poor people of Sierra Leone/most of africa being slaughtered daily? I can more easily identify with these people, yes actual people suffering, not some animals grazing in a field that know nothing of life and death.

Cows and chickens feel pain, too. What makes people more important than them?

[Mullen]

Cows and chickens feel pain, too. What makes people more important than them?

We're higher on the food chain and have declared them tasty.

[elf omg]

We're higher on the food chain and have declared them tasty.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f75/dumace/food_chain.jpg

Hehe.

[Township Rebellion]

Vegetarians can all lick my balls.

Dogs hump legs. Humping legs is natural. Nobody minds if I hump their leg. :rolleyes:

Yes, it's natural for dogs to hump. They're horny. Sexual intercourse and any attempt at engaging in such activities are entirely natural. It's part of the reproduction process, hence very important. The only reason people would mind you humping their legs is because you aren't humping the correct area. Faggot.

I am what you would call an Omnivore, somebody who eats enough vegetables to stay healthy, and enough meat to stay happy. Fuck not eating meat.

I look at it this way: since the dawn of our existence eating meat has been as natural as eating any other edible source of food. It is ridiculously naive to believe us humans were "meant" to be herbivores - that's fucking retarded. If that were correct, than we would all become terribly sick and the human race would die out - further more, every human WOULD be eating only vegetables because that is how our bodies would work.

But, our bodies DON'T work that way. We eat meat. We also eat vegetables, grain products, dairy products, and anything else I'm forgetting; it's all there for a reason. We humans are the dominant life form, A) because we have the most advanced brains on this planet, and B) we have used our superior intelligence to discover the best way to survive. Amongst those survival techniques, our diet has been refined and expanded over the years to epic proportions.

Where did it start? Well, early man would have adopted the hunter/gatherer scheme. Johnny caveman would take his home-made spears and gone hunting for game, whilst the others would've gone looking for some berries or whatever flora their environment carried. So in reality we've always been eating meat, because it's always been a natural part of our diet, because otherwise it wouldn't be in our instinct to eat meat. It's that simple.

In the middle ages, it wasn't that most people didn't eat meat because it wasn't the natural or obvious thing to do; anyone who uses this arguement is probably an American and completely oblivious to any form of life different to their own; the peasants of the time didn't eat meat because they couldn't afford to - they weren't allowed to hunt nor were they really instructed to do so because the rich and powerful kept that shit for themselves. They kept the poor weak and sickly because that was the best way to continue to control them. What, do you idiots think life was all roses and sunshine in those days?? Trust me, if they could eat meat regularly, they would have.

In todays world, everything's changed. In modern civilization, at least in countries where such an advanced lifestyle exists, we have life so good that some people notice it and realize they have a conscience. Some people feel guilty because they are overfed and instead of trying to better themselves in other ways, they decide to not eat meat for a variety of what feel are inherently poor reasons. I can see someone not eating meat because they are worried about the environment - personally, the environment is fine; the earth will not die because of us, the fact is us humans will all die out before the planet does. Nature has always had a way of sorting itself out, and seeing as the earth has always been able to deal with the farts of big animals in the past, I'm sure it can deal with a few more*.

My main issue is with people who don't want to eat meat because we're eating corpses. WAAAAAAAAHHH! You're killing a poor innocent cow and eating its corpse! That's MURDER! WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH! Get fucked you little pansies! You're all a bunch of fairies that ought to be castrated. Here's why you're all a bunch of worm eating faggots who cry too much: Death happens. It's unavoidable. Being uncomfortable with the idea that we're killing animals is just another form of fear of the unknown. You also seem to think killing in any way is not only murder but unnatural and should be avoided at all costs. Okay, taking an axe to your ma and throwing sharp objects at the police afterwards isn't what I'd call a good idea worthy of following up any old time, however it is NATURAL. The axe-murderer had a problem in his/her brain that caused him/her to go apeshit and kill. It's unfortunate, but that's life. It couldn't be helped.

This, however, is absolutely NOT the same as killing an animal. Especially when killing an animal for sustenance; not only is this also natural but entirely necessary. And don't give me that "lol but you can live as a vegetarian and be more healthy and consume less in more ways than one lol!!1!"

...but WHY THE FUCK SHOULD I? We're breeding, feeding and killing most of the animals we eat in a closed environment; they're born just so we can eat them! And fuck it's not like they live a bad life, and what the fuck else do these creatures have to live for? Nothing! Their bodies are FOOD! For us! Meanwhile these farmers are working hard for a living so the rest of us can eat heartily and live comfortably, just so you weiner vegetarians can slap them in the face and call them murderers! And hey, while we're at it why don't we have a little talk with all the large felines and canines, the birds of prey, the whales and sharks, and all the other various predators that almost entirely eat meat: they're murderers too! How dare they?? Hey guys, these animals are equals, huh, you fucking piece of shit vegans; how dare that lion attack and eat that gazelle?? That fucking murderer, why doesn't it just eat plants??? You should run up to it and throw blood on its face; that'll make it feel guilty.

Obviously this is as ridiculous as humans never eating meat. Our bodies were designed to be able to run off a variety of fuels, and the healthiest choice is to consume a good variety of these fuels. INCLUDING meat. Stop worrying about your conscience; I can guarentee there are many other things to worry about. Why do you care about the animals? They aren't equal to us humans and we shouldn't spend our time worrying about what they think; they don't give a flying fuck what we're doing, after all. All a cow is thinking about is "mmmmmm, this grass is tasty", they aren't worrying about their impending doom because they know they're going to die anyway. All they have is a natural survival instinct which would only kick in once it's too late because we've already figured out the best process for for turning a cow into a delicious burger.

Instead, ladies and gentlemen, instead of worrying what's for dinner, stop worrying. Corpses are delicious. They have protein and vitamins that keep the body in good working shape. And somehow, they certainly help ones mental stability as well; it satisfies that natural killer instinct in all of us and, at least for me, certainly can help control my mood favorably. And while we're at it, consider all the other bad shit going on in the world: there's terrorism, disease, social oppression, poverty and considerable world hunger amongst other things. The ethiopians don't really eat meat, therefor they know whats what! Oh wait, they don't eat meat because they don't have any food. That's right.

Consider saving the rest of the human race; don't worry about the animals or your diet. Because honestly, if you're in a position where you can eat whatever you want, you've got it GOOD. Save your guilt for those that aren't in your position, not for the animals.

This has been quite the rant. I understand a bunch of vegans will jump up and shove a bunch of numbers or their own spurious logic down my throut, just know now that it's in vain. And for fucks sake, don't get me started on religious implications and related diets, I think organized religion as a whole is about as mentally unhealthy and stupid as vegetarians are. Not eating pigs because god said so is irrational and retarded. Ham is awesome, god can eat shit.

TL;DR Vegetarians are a bunch of whinging losers with stupid ideas and a ridiculously overactive conscience. There are many more important issues in the world today; eating meat and the moral implications thereof are in fact a non-issue created solely by a bunch of unenlightened pussies.

*Yes, I realize that we're breeding alot more animals for our consumption so there are alot more animals, but we've essentially been doing that for centuries. It's still not going to make a huge difference in the long run - and I'm not talking in the next few years, I'm talking millennia down the road when humans will have ceased to exist, or have somehow been dramatically cut down in numbers: I do believe this will happen. Life will go on in other forms, and the planet will survive... until the sun dies spectacularly and takes the earth with it. Shit happens.

On that note, I'm going to go get a nice, juicy burger.

[Snoopy]

The big problem here is that most people here don't even eat real meat, they eat processed meat. My grandfather had a small farm before he died and I would slaughter a few pigs and sheep with him ever year and countless chickens. All of his animals were raised in the open, with a wide variety of foods they consumed. It's impossible to compare that meat to the meat you buy in stores. All the chicken in stores when cooked looks fucking white and tastes like paper. Chicken is supposed to be yellow and juicy.

I'm not even going to start about all those meat products. Shit like hamburgers from a fast food "restaurant" only has like 10% beef in it. It's full of poisonous calories and has almost no nutritious value at all.

Eating too much red meat is bad for your digestive system and colon. Eating no meat at all isn't good either, as you're missing out on a lot of nutrients you can't get from plants only. About a tenth of daily food you consume should be meat. Fish is a great replacement for red meat. It's very important to portion your meals well, and spread them evenly throughout the day. Say, stew on monday, chicken on Tuesday, red meat on Wednesday, seafood on Thursday and fish on Friday. Cook your potatoes or steam them instead of frying them. Same goes for vegetables. Eat wholewheat bread for breakfast and fruits for dinner. Don't skip on food you like. Chocolate is good for you, just don't eat too much. Ice cream is better than cake. Avoid candy that has color additives. Eat eggs, but no more than twice a week. Preferably for breakfast. Avoid eating food that your stomach reacts poorly to. Some people can't handle certain beans, or spicy food. Don't eat if if your stomach doesn't like it. If you fry your food, use proper oil. Seriously, this is all common sense. It's real easy eating healthy and staying fit. The problem is that people just eat too much. More than their bodies need. Instead of waste a shitload of money of shitty food, eat less but better quality. Certain quality butchers have good quality meat that came from small farms that didn't "produce" their animals but just raised them. Their meat is more expensive, but it's better to eat the good quality stuff than the beef that's been grown to insane proportions through hormone injection.

[zooting22]

1. I think the meat industry contributes to 40% of CO2 emissions due to cow farts. although I'm a sceptic of global warming, I may as well play it safe.
2. It takes 3 barrels of oil to raise one cow. I fear the oil crisis and I think its a complete waste of oil. It isn't economical at all.

You might as well take something out of it, since they're doing it wether you like it or not.

4. I'm agnostic and I don't think god would approve of us eating other animals. Either way I'm playing it safe. The bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill" not "Thou Shalt Murder" (Kill can be killing of anything in our language, but I guess it could be a mistranslation)
:facepalm:


5. Sometimes when they push the meat line too fast, when the animals are having their intestines ripped out they burst open and shit gets on the meat.
Manure is used to grow vegetables. Also, the meat is sort of washed, and cooking it finishes most bacteria.

6. I think there are several health benefits with going veg (as long as you take suppliments) and studies show that on average vegs lead longer lives.

Would you rather live 7 years longer than your neighbor by never having sex? happy life (in which meat is a must)>long life

7. The notion of eating meat every night is very modern, in the middle ages it was not a common thing. We weren't designed to eat meat every day, like most people do now.

We weren't "designed" dipshit, humans found what worked for them.


8. And finally, I highly respect the concept of hunting

I kill my own food


Also: meat=good

[Township Rebellion]

Eating no meat at all isn't good either, as you're missing out on a lot of nutriments you can't get from plants only.

Nutriments?? :confused:

Otherwise I agree entirely with this post.

[Anima Mundi]

7. The notion of eating meat every night is very modern, in the middle ages it was not a common thing. We weren't designed to eat meat every day, like most people do now.

We weren't "designed" dipshit, humans found what worked for them.


Designed can mean through evolution as well, you mouthbreathing sub-human cockroach. And that is very true, humans found what works for THEM. Not what works for the planet, not what works for sustainability, but what works for them. And they will be damned if they don't kill every trace of life on this rock.

[Township Rebellion]

Designed can mean through evolution as well, you mouthbreathing sub-human cockroach. And that is very true, humans found what works for THEM. Not what works for the planet, not what works for sustainability, but what works for them. And they will be damned if they don't kill every trace of life on this rock.

Oh noes, teh planet will die! We'll kill it! We're meanies!

Mother nature is laughing at you right now.

[DarkMage35]

B vitamins can be found in plentiful quantities from unchlorinated water, many fermented sources etc etc, protein-beans?!

B12 is available from many non-animal sources; direct fermentation, natural water/vegetables, anywhere where some number of bacteria can survive, as mentioned it's already added to foods anyway so not much change .. Incidentally statistically there is no higher incidence of B12 deficiency in vegans ..Citation needed for these supposed other B12 sources. Everywhere I look, even the vegetarian sites, says the only way to get it is via animal sources.

Beans are rather useless if you want to avoid the antinutrients they have, so for protein that leaves nuts.

First off, as said fermentation reduces these effects, and soya really isn't needed, it forms a very small part of my diet looking at it, they're making the naive assumption that all veg*ns eat soy all the time ..Antinutrients are found throughout legumes. Soy is just a particularly bad variety.

Agreed, one of the many reasons I'm vegan ..The point the article makes about cows is correct, but it doesnt really extend to, say, chickens. Milk is a rather unnatural food anyway - all of us who can drink the stuff in adulthood are mutants.

[Snoopy]

Nutriments?? :confused:

Otherwise I agree entirely with this post.

Nutrients, just for you Mr. Perfect.

[scovegner]

Funny how a lot of you seem to think it's a HUGE big deal, SO difficult going veg*n, well it's not, it's just choosing to not eat some foods and eat others, I've never really found it difficult, had cravings etc, but I guess that is me and it just seems 'right' for me ..
The beauty and complexity of life does not equate to the taste in my mouth for a minute pretty much :D

[DarkMage35]

Funny how a lot of you seem to think it's a HUGE big deal, SO difficult going veg*n, well it's not, it's just choosing to not eat some foods and eat others, I've never really found it difficult, had cravings etc, but I guess that is me and it just seems 'right' for me ..
The beauty and complexity of life does not equate to the taste in my mouth for a minute pretty much :DMind posting your diet? I'm interested as to how you get adequate amounts of the nutrients you need...

[Anima Mundi]

Oh noes, teh planet will die! We'll kill it! We're meanies!

Mother nature is laughing at you right now.

HUR DUR, TAUNTING WINS TEH ARGUMENS.

Fuck off and die.

[scovegner]

Mind posting your diet? I'm interested as to how you get adequate amounts of the nutrients you need...

Lotsa different stuff really, stuff like chili, pies, rice, potatoes, fruit, cake, some straight up vegetables and salad sometimes, loads more but a general idea ^

[Jamie "fuck constipation" Lee Curtis]

All of your arguments exist inside this little bubble of fabricated logic that doesn't even make any real sense considering our past, our present, and the grand scheme of things.

The only real "argument" for vegetarianism is "I have the free will of human thought and, because of technological achievements such as refrigeration, fermentation, shipping, and having a disposable income that I may do what I wish with, choose to completely exclude a part of the human diet for the past 40,000 years because of personal reasons."

I eat meat, and "dirty bits." Oh gawd. I don't eat processed meats.

[Township Rebellion]

HUR DUR, TAUNTING WINS TEH ARGUMENS.

Fuck off and die.

I'm only taunting you because you have no argument.

[Snoopy]

I'm only taunting you because you have no argument.

You're both being huge morons in this thread. I suggest you fellers get drunk then bungee jump while tied to each other's dicks.

[jackketch]

You're both being huge morons in this thread. I suggest you fellers get drunk then bungee jump while tied to each other's dicks.

Ahh yes, those long dark winter evenings in Belgium when there is nothing worth watching on TV. I remember them well.

[Snoopy]

Ahh yes, those long dark winter evenings in Belgium when there is nothing worth watching on TV. I remember them well.

It's spring and I'm at work. I need to find myself a job where I work during daytime. Getting payed to troll Internet forums just isn't as fun anymore.

[jackketch]

It's spring and I'm at work. I need to find myself a job where I work during daytime. Getting payed to troll Internet forums just isn't as fun anymore.

A day job?

Well to misquote Blackadder...never before have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity as Snoopy. Have you ever considered a career in the church?"

[

[Snoopy]

A day job?

Well to misquote Blackadder...never before have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity as Snoopy. Have you ever considered a career in the church?"

[

Yes I have, actually. My only problem is my honesty. I just can't get it over my heart to lie that much to myself. Twisting the truth a little bit is one thing, but outright lying to everyone and myself is something that my character isn't compatible with.

[DarkMage35]

Lotsa different stuff really, stuff like chili, pies, rice, potatoes, fruit, cake, some straight up vegetables and salad sometimes, loads more but a general idea ^Yes, I do. Hows your protein intake? Vitamin B12? Fat (and what kinds)? I'm assuming theres some beans and nuts youve forgotten to mention there somewhere...

[princessnoodles]

I'm vegetarian, mainly cause i dont like the taste of meat.
The thought of eating dead carcassess disgustes me.
you would have more chance in convincing me to eat a human alive.

[Snoopy]

I'm vegetarian, mainly cause i dont like the taste of meat.
The thought of eating dead carcassess disgustes me.
you would have more chance in convincing me to eat a human alive.

You're a fucking idiot. Would you rather eat a living animal than a dead one? Seriously, is this thread filled with idiots or what? You all keep talking some retarded nonsene about eating animal corpses. How god damn retarded is this?

[skinny love]

You're a fucking idiot. Would you rather eat a living animal than a dead one? Seriously, is this thread filled with idiots or what? You all keep talking some retarded nonsene about eating animal corpses. How god damn retarded is this?

is it really that confusing to you? eating the flesh of other animals dead or alive is gross and unnecessary.

[Snoopy]

is it really that confusing to you? eating the flesh of other animals dead or alive is gross and unnecessary.

Congratulations, you've been diagnosed with a neurological disorder!

[Anima Mundi]

This thread isn't about neurological disorders. Off topic posting again will garner you an infraction.

[princessnoodles]

You're a fucking idiot. Would you rather eat a living animal than a dead one? Seriously, is this thread filled with idiots or what? You all keep talking some retarded nonsene about eating animal corpses. How god damn retarded is this?


Wow, hit a nerve?
I'll eat what i want, and my own beliefs govern what i do or don't eat, its not like i was imposing this on you, just adding my view.
maybe you need to open your eyes a little, get out more?
xxx

[Snoopy]

This thread isn't about neurological disorders. Off topic posting again will garner you an infraction.

I'm believe that all vegetarians suffer from a neurological disorder. There, now this thread is about neurologica disorder. You mention thread derailment one more time and I'm going to rape your faggot emo face, faggot.

Wow, hit a nerve?
I'll eat what i want, and my own beliefs govern what i do or don't eat, its not like i was imposing this on you, just adding my view.
maybe you need to open your eyes a little, get out more?
xxx

My point is that all of you fucking idiots who keep going on about "eating coprses" are that, fucking idiots. And you suffer from some weird kind of neurological disorder as well.

[skinny love]

Congratulations, you've been diagnosed with a neurological disorder!

don't even pretend you know what a neurological disorder is, you dolt.

[Snoopy]

don't even pretend you know what a neurological disorder is, you dolt.

Seriously, if you don't like meat that's your choice. But this entire not wanting to eat me because you're eating "corpses" excuse is just retarded. It makes you all look like a bunch of dumbasses.

[princessnoodles]

Seriously, if you don't like meat that's your choice. But this entire not wanting to eat me because you're eating "corpses" excuse is just retarded. It makes you all look like a bunch of dumbasses.

How is it retarded, care to explain?
I think your just refusing to accept what you can't understand.
maybe your the dumb arse?

[Snoopy]

How is it retarded, care to explain?
I think your just refusing to accept what you can't understand.
maybe your the dumb arse?

What don't I understand here exactly? Seems like a load of crap on semantics.

[skinny love]

Seriously, if you don't like meat that's your choice. But this entire not wanting to eat me because you're eating "corpses" excuse is just retarded. It makes you all look like a bunch of dumbasses.

fair enough. i don't really mind if my views make me look like a dumbass because i know i have proper justifications for them. eating animals makes you all look like a bunch of primitive cavemen, and the meat eaters who eat processed carcasses especially are disgusting.

if you really wanna see a bunch of dumbasses, make all the meat eaters hunt their own meat and watch how many of them suddenly become hesitant to eat carcasses. you think people would enjoy bacon that much when they have to cut their own bacon? if you would, i respect that but i know a lot of meat eaters wouldn't want to eat it if the meat industry didn't make you so removed from the slaughtering process.

[princessnoodles]

What don't I understand here exactly? Seems like a load of crap on semantics.

why people don't eat dead things.

would you eat a dead human?
what makes it different to eating a dead animal?

[DarkMage35]

why people don't eat dead things.

would you eat a dead human?
what makes it different to eating a dead animal?To answer your questions:

Yes, but only if my life depended on it. Preferably also only if the person was going to die/dead anyway.

Its easier for me to get dangerous pathogens from human meat because, well, its human meat, and so is vastly more likely to contain pathogens that can live in humans. I'm human. Duh. The other difference is I respect an intelligence similar to my own. This is why I wouldnt really want to eat, say, dolphin meat. The other other reason that I dont really care about is how society views it.


fair enough. i don't really mind if my views make me look like a dumbass because i know i have proper justifications for them. eating animals makes you all look like a bunch of primitive cavemen, and the meat eaters who eat processed carcasses especially are disgusting.

if you really wanna see a bunch of dumbasses, make all the meat eaters hunt their own meat and watch how many of them suddenly become hesitant to eat carcasses. you think people would enjoy bacon that much when they have to cut their own bacon? if you would, i respect that but i know a lot of meat eaters wouldn't want to eat it if the meat industry didn't make you so removed from the slaughtering process.Lets hear these "proper justifications" then. It'll be fun.

Not eating animals makes you all look like a bunch of deluded idiots. Animals killing other animals happens whether you eat meat or not, and without meat the only sensible diet possible involves lots of eggs. Do you like eggs that much? Not to mention that killing plants is still killing. Sounds like you have an unnaturally strong fear of death to me, or you havent really thought this through.

I wouldnt mind having to hunt my own meat at all, except for the extra demands on my time. Would mean I have a better control over the quality of my food, and more variety. Pity how it would result in more suffering for the animals then proper farming practices (wow, youre a vegetarian advocating more animal suffering).

[skinny love]

Lets hear these "proper justifications" then. It'll be fun.

you must be really dense because i've already told you them several times. i don't like meat, i think it's gross, and i can easily be healthy without it.

Not eating animals makes you all look like a bunch of deluded idiots. Animals killing other animals happens whether you eat meat or not, and without meat the only sensible diet possible involves lots of eggs. Do you like eggs that much? Not to mention that killing plants is still killing. Sounds like you have an unnaturally strong fear of death to me, or you havent really thought this through.

i rarely eat eggs and i'm still healthy according to numerous health check ups so that obviously isn't the only sensible vegetarian diet. i think the last time i ate an egg was a few months ago. once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. i don't have a fear of death, you just lack a respect for life.

I wouldnt mind having to hunt my own meat at all, except for the extra demands on my time. Would mean I have a better control over the quality of my food, and more variety. Pity how it would result in more suffering for the animals then proper farming practices (wow, youre a vegetarian advocating more animal suffering).

proper farming practices? you mean slaughtering practices? there's no such thing as a proper slaughtering process, you primitive hedonist.

[Snoopy]

why people don't eat dead things.

would you eat a dead human?
what makes it different to eating a dead animal?

That is a retarded question, as are you. What difference does the dead or alive make? If you want to know if I would eat human meat, then then the answer is yes.

Would you rather have me eat an animal while it's still living and breathing? How does that improve anything?

Idiots.

[DarkMage35]

you must be really dense because i've already told you them several times. i don't like meat, i think it's gross, and i can easily be healthy without it.You must be really dense because I said "proper justifications". Hell, YOU said "proper justifications". I call bullshit on you not liking meat at all, thinking something is gross isnt good justification for anything, and I doubt youre as healthy as you think you are.

i rarely eat eggs and i'm still healthy according to numerous health check ups so that obviously isn't the only sensible vegetarian diet. i think the last time i ate an egg was a few months ago. once again, you have no idea what you're talking about.So I assume you have an adequate intake of vitamins B12, A, D, E, K, calcium, unpoly fat, and protein? And youre obviously not overweight. Also, clearly your cholesterol (heh) levels are fine and youre not getting anywhere near resistant to insulin, now or later on in life.

Really? Is that so? Tell me more of this fantasy land of yours.


i don't have a fear of death, you just lack a respect for life.

proper farming practices? you mean slaughtering practices? there's no such thing as a proper slaughtering process, you primitive hedonist.I mean proper farming practices. Y'know, raising animals in something approaching their natural environment with plenty of their natural food and minimal predators. As opposed to in a small unnatural living space with unnatural food. But there is such thing as proper slaughtering practices. It involves killing animals as swiftly as possible when it comes time to do so, as opposed to a long drawn out process from bleeding or exhaustion. And thats an important part of it, its just that the farming portion needs more work at the moment, so I chose to emphasize that.

Also, I'd go see a psychiatrist if I were you. You have issues you need to work out. You and princessnoodles.

[skinny love]

don't take princessnoodles too seriously, she using some pretty dumb arguments for something i just happen to agree with.

there's obviously a difference between eating a human and animal. and there's also a difference between eating an animal and a plant. if you can't see the differences, you're retarded.

[Snoopy]

and there's also a difference between eating an animal and a plant. if you can't see the differences, you're retarded.

What? You eat them both with your mouth.

[skinny love]

You must be really dense because I said "proper justifications". Hell, YOU said "proper justifications". I call bullshit on you not liking meat at all, thinking something is gross isnt good justification for anything, and I doubt youre as healthy as you think you are.

your only counterarguments are calling bullshit and dismissing my opinions. great job.:thumbsup:

if not liking something isn't a proper reason to not eat it, then what the fuck is? i don't like meat, the only meat that has a bearable taste is bacon and even that greasy shit is too gross to eat. i was raised vegetarian and i'm glad i was.

So I assume you have an adequate intake of vitamins B12, A, D, E, K, calcium, unpoly fat, and protein? And youre obviously not overweight. Also, clearly your cholesterol (heh) levels are fine and youre not getting anywhere near resistant to insulin, now or later on in life.

Really? Is that so? Tell me more of this fantasy land of yours.

walnuts, peanut butter, calcium enriched orange juice, soy protein, etc. even fucking redbull has enough b12 in it. it's really not that impossible.


I mean proper farming practices. Y'know, raising animals in something approaching their natural environment with plenty of their natural food and minimal predators. As opposed to in a small unnatural living space with unnatural food. But there is such thing as proper slaughtering practices. It involves killing animals as swiftly as possible when it comes time to do so, as opposed to a long drawn out process from bleeding or exhaustion. And thats an important part of it, its just that the farming portion needs more work at the moment, so I chose to emphasize that.

but at the end of the day, you're still slaughtering animals. and that's unnecessary no matter how "proper" you think it is.

Also, I'd go see a psychiatrist if I were you. You have issues you need to work out. You and princessnoodles.

you wish i had psychological issues because it might help you cope with the fact that what i'm saying has validity and that's kind of pathetic.

[skinny love]

What? You eat them both with your mouth.

your lack of ability to distinguish between the things you put in your mouth could explain why you suck so much dick. or you're just gay.:thumbsdown:

[Snoopy]

your lack of ability to distinguish between the things you put in your mouth could explain why you suck so much dick. or you're just gay.:thumbsdown:

I call troll.

[DarkMage35]

your only counterarguments are calling bullshit and dismissing my opinions. great job.:thumbsup:My counterarguments are probability, knowledge of cooking, some knowledge of dietary requirements, and your words.

if not liking something isn't a proper reason to not eat it, then what the fuck is? i don't like meat, the only meat that has a bearable taste is bacon and even that greasy shit is too gross to eat. i was raised vegetarian and i'm glad i was.Ah, so you were brainwashed from an early age. Explains a lot. Also makes me doubt even more about you being as healthy as you think you are.

And not liking something is a flimsy reason for not eating something on a personal level, but completely falls down if applied to people in general. Hence why I called you on it.

walnuts, peanut butter, calcium enriched orange juice, soy protein, etc. even fucking redbull has enough b12 in it. it's really not that impossible.So you would fuck your body up with stimulants to get B12? And ingest soy (of all things) to get protein? Amusing. You just keep on doing that. Have fun. :p

but at the end of the day, you're still slaughtering animals. and that's unnecessary no matter how "proper" you think it is.

you wish i had psychological issues because it might help you cope with the fact that what i'm saying has validity and that's kind of pathetic.Are you god? No? Then shut up and watch the nature channel for a while.

[Jamie "fuck constipation" Lee Curtis]

if you really wanna see a bunch of dumbasses, make all the meat eaters hunt their own meat and watch how many of them suddenly become hesitant to eat carcasses. you think people would enjoy bacon that much when they have to cut their own bacon? if you would, i respect that but i know a lot of meat eaters wouldn't want to eat it if the meat industry didn't make you so removed from the slaughtering process.

The same can go for vegetarians. I want to see what your holier-than-thou asses do in winter suburbia about finding some vegetables.

How many vegetarians grow their own beans, legumes, chilis, cabbages, lettuce, carrots, potatoes, rice, ETC and store them for the non-growing season so they don't starve? How many bare-footed five year old Mexicans do you send into the highland orchards to spray poison on your not-in-season produce?

We make animals die, you ship non-local produce from god knows where half way across the world. Both drain resources, someone has do work hard for both, and people eat them both. Make that freaking fresh, vibrant salad with lime, onion, pepper, herbs, and romaine/spinach in the middle of a snowstorm in your stupid little neighborhood in your stupid little front yard when there is a snowstorm. See how well that works out.

Then get back to me about how *natural* vegetarianism is. You can't hold skinny love's argument unless you forage your yard for all it's worth and then half-starve in the winter like every other herbivore outside of subtropical zones.

*edit
bottom line, you are just as far removed from the food production process as the rest of us.

[Township Rebellion]

Here's another question: how the fuck can you live with yourselves for not liking ham? Ham??? Ham is literally the best food in the world!

[Snoopy]

Here's another question: how the fuck can you live with yourselves for not liking ham? Ham??? Ham is literally the best food in the world!

Damn you're wrong.

[skinny love]

The same can go for vegetarians. I want to see what your holier-than-thou asses do in winter suburbia about finding some vegetables.

How many vegetarians grow their own beans, legumes, chilis, cabbages, lettuce, carrots, potatoes, rice, ETC and store them for the non-growing season so they don't starve? How many bare-footed five year old Mexicans do you send into the highland orchards to spray poison on your not-in-season produce?

We make animals die, you ship non-local produce from god knows where half way across the world. Both drain resources, someone has do work hard for both, and people eat them both. Make that freaking fresh, vibrant salad with lime, onion, pepper, herbs, and romaine/spinach in the middle of a snowstorm in your stupid little neighborhood in your stupid little front yard when there is a snowstorm. See how well that works out.

Then get back to me about how *natural* vegetarianism is. You can't hold skinny love's argument unless you forage your yard for all it's worth and then half-starve in the winter like every other herbivore outside of subtropical zones.

*edit
bottom line, you are just as far removed from the food production process as the rest of us.

your argument sucks because it's completely irrelevant. i'm not arguing that meat eaters shouldn't eat meat because they are removed from the industry. if you had any reading comprehension skills, you'd understand that i'm arguing about the morality and brutality behind the slaughtering of animals, not how unfeasible raising your own farm animals is.

this is not about how difficult it would be to raise your own farm animals or grow your own vegetables. it's about the fact that a lot of meat eaters would be hesitant to eat meat if they had to slaughter it themselves, while vegetarians would have no ethical problems eating the vegetables that they grew.

[Snoopy]

your argument sucks because it's completely irrelevant. i'm not arguing that meat eaters shouldn't eat meat because they are removed from the industry. if you had any reading comprehension skills, you'd understand that i'm arguing about the morality and brutality behind the slaughtering of animals, not how unfeasible raising your own farm animals is.

this is not about how difficult it would be to raise your own farm animals or grow your own vegetables. it's about the fact that a lot of meat eaters would be hesitant to eat meat if they had to slaughter it themselves, while vegetarians would have no ethical problems eating the vegetables that they grew.

I have slaughtered plenty of farm animals myself. Where does that put me?

[DarkMage35]

your argument sucks because it's completely irrelevant. i'm not arguing that meat eaters shouldn't eat meat because they are removed from the industry. if you had any reading comprehension skills, you'd understand that i'm arguing about the morality and brutality behind the slaughtering of animals, not how unfeasible raising your own farm animals is.

this is not about how difficult it would be to raise your own farm animals or grow your own vegetables. it's about the fact that a lot of meat eaters would be hesitant to eat meat if they had to slaughter it themselves, while vegetarians would have no ethical problems eating the vegetables that they grew.Hesitancy due to anthropomorphisation, and morality, are two very different things.

[Jamie "fuck constipation" Lee Curtis]

it's about the fact that a lot of meat eaters would be hesitant to eat meat if they had to slaughter it themselves

Skinning and butchering animals is actually pretty enjoyable if you ask me. Munching shotgun pellet is the not fun part, also if you accidentally cut the poop sack. People who can't deal with animal death and the realities it brings are pretty pathetically removed from reality, I cannot deny that fact in and of itself.

I just don't like how people on both sides act like little bitches about everything.

[skinny love]

Hesitancy due to anthropomorphisation, and morality, are two very different things.

yeah you're right. respect for life is definitely not morality:rolleyes:

[skinny love]

I have slaughtered plenty of farm animals myself. Where does that put me?

there are two groups of meat eaters. hypocrites and barbarians. you're just a barbarian.:thumbsup: don't worry, i like you guys more than the hypocrites who wouldn't touch meat if they had to skin it.

[Snoopy]

there are two groups of meat eaters. hypocrites and barbarians. you're just a barbarian.:thumbsup: don't worry, i like you guys more than the hypocrites who wouldn't touch meat if they had to skin it.

I'm a barbarian because my grandparents were farmers? Interesting.

[skinny love]

I'm a barbarian because my grandparents were farmers? Interesting.

the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. not that you would know anything about apples...

[Snoopy]

the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. not that you would know anything about apples...

So you're saying I don't like fruit beceause I eat meat? I call troll again.

[Jamie "fuck constipation" Lee Curtis]

yeah you're right. respect for life is definitely not morality:rolleyes:

Sheesh, those rolleyes... vicious stuff.

Since when was respecting something entail leaving it completely alone? Your definition of respect must be the one-liner Merriam-Webster version of respect.

[skinny love]

So you're saying I don't like fruit beceause I eat meat? I call troll again.

it was a joke. haha i'm not a troll.:p

[skinny love]

Sheesh, those rolleyes... vicious stuff.

Since when was respecting something entail leaving it completely alone? Your definition of respect must be the one-liner Merriam-Webster version of respect.

hahaha i'm not telling you to leave animals completely alone. fuck, i drink cow's milk every once in a while. but there's a huge difference between leaving something alone and slaughtering it, don't pretend to be stupid... or maybe you're not pretending?

[Snoopy]

it was a joke. haha i'm not a troll.:p

No, of course you're not.

[Jamie "fuck constipation" Lee Curtis]

don't pretend to be stupid... or maybe you're not pretending?

Ever stepped on an ant? You're a killer.

[DarkMage35]

yeah you're right. respect for life is definitely not morality:rolleyes:Hesitating because youre mistakenly assigning human traits to something that isnt remotely human is not respect for life. Killing plants isnt respect for life either.

Respect for life would either involve leaving it to live (in which case, please go starve yourself), or killing quickly where necessary (and only where necessary). As well as not being cruel to things while theyre alive. Dont pretend to be stupid... or maybe youre not pretending?

[skinny love]

Hesitating because youre mistakenly assigning human traits to something that isnt remotely human is not respect for life. Killing plants isnt respect for life either.

Respect for life would either involve leaving it to live (in which case, please go starve yourself), or killing quickly where necessary (and only where necessary). As well as not being cruel to things while theyre alive. Dont pretend to be stupid... or maybe youre not pretending?

repeating what i said at the end of your post doesn't make you witty or funny. good effort though.

anyways, you're arguing that respect for life means 1) leaving it to live, and i agree with you for once. or 2) killing quickly where necessary... and it's never necessary unless you have no access to a fucking grocery store and have to hunt like cavemen for your food. killing animals is never necessary and the only reason most people eat meat is because they like the taste.

if you cannot understand the difference between plant life and animal life, then you're mentally challenged and i'm afraid i have no hope for you. besides, you don't always have to kill a plant to eat its fruit, so that argument isn't even valid all the time.

prove to me that i'm assigning human traits to animals. has it ever crossed your mind that it is possible to respect life even if it lacks human qualities? have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, i respect human life and the lives of other animals, despite their differences? or am i giving you too much credit?

[skinny love]

Ever stepped on an ant? You're a killer.

you can't even think of a worthy reply to my post, so you post this retarded shit? stop wasting my time, and more importantly, stop wasting your own damn time writing bullshit.

[Township Rebellion]

i'm arguing about the morality and brutality behind the slaughtering of animals, not how unfeasible raising your own farm animals is.

it's about the fact that a lot of meat eaters would be hesitant to eat meat if they had to slaughter it themselves, while vegetarians would have no ethical problems eating the vegetables that they grew.

This is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard and continues to come from your warped, pussy whipped view of the world.

If I had to kill my own food I definitely would. I think the vast majority of meat eaters are the same way, because the reality of it is there is no morality or brutality here. You think we're being inhumane towards animals, as if it's a bad thing. Of course we're being inhumane towards animals! They aren't human! They're food!

It's also rich for you arrogant veggie munchers to call us "barbarians". Do you really think you're some enlightened, advanced, improved variety of human because you don't eat meat? Do you really think eating meat is beneath you? Do you really think meat eaters are "morally corrupt"?

Morality is nothing but an abstract idea thought up by man. Just because we can come up with this stuff doesn't mean it's always correct. The russians thought they had a good idea, but look what happened there. Adolf Hitler thought he had shit figured out, and look how wrong he was. In ancient times, many civilizations thought the earth was flat; well, I don't have to tell you how incorrect that is. These days, there are lots of bad ideas still floating around; some people think we came from the spirits of aliens sent here from an evil alien overlord. Worse, some people think everyone that doesn't believe in their god rightly deserves to be killed. And, some people think it's morally wrong to eat meat.

Well, what else is a cow going to do? And what about the chickens? What do these creatures offer us, other than something to throw on the BBQ? Is a pig going to cure cancer for us? Will the cows go get jobs managing at Mcdonalds? No; these creatures are here for a reason: for the dominant life form on this planet to use as sustenance. Us humans happen to be the dominant life form, therefor, these creatures will continue to be raised solely for our benefit. That's how it is, that's how it always will be. And hey, if you don't want any, that's fine. More ham for me.

[DarkMage35]

repeating what i said at the end of your post doesn't make you witty or funny. good effort though.

anyways, you're arguing that respect for life means 1) leaving it to live, and i agree with you for once. or 2) killing quickly where necessary... and it's never necessary unless you have no access to a fucking grocery store and have to hunt like cavemen for your food. killing animals is never necessary and the only reason most people eat meat is because they like the taste.

if you cannot understand the difference between plant life and animal life, then you're mentally challenged and i'm afraid i have no hope for you. besides, you don't always have to kill a plant to eat its fruit, so that argument isn't even valid all the time.

prove to me that i'm assigning human traits to animals. has it ever crossed your mind that it is possible to respect life even if it lacks human qualities? have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, i respect human life and the lives of other animals, despite their differences? or am i giving you too much credit?Ah, I'd forgotten for a second about plants you dont have to kill to eat the produce of. I assume you only eat these plants, of course. The ones you do have to kill still involve killing. Killing is killing. Killing a plant instead of an animal does not change that.

Its very necessary because its what we are adapted to eat. Go argue with your DNA. Theres nothing ethically wrong with it due to nature. Go watch the nature channel for a while. In fact, theres ethical advantages to it, because its possible to give animals a better life then that they would have in the wild (before they are killed quickly, of course).

YOU arent assigning human traits to animals. A lot of omnivores who would shy away from getting their own meat possibly are. What youre doing is denying reality.

[skinny love]

This is the biggest load of shit I've ever heard and continues to come from your warped, pussy whipped view of the world.

the truth hurts, i guess. it's okay, you'll get over it.

If I had to kill my own food I definitely would. I think the vast majority of meat eaters are the same way, because the reality of it is there is no morality or brutality here. You think we're being inhumane towards animals, as if it's a bad thing. Of course we're being inhumane towards animals! They aren't human! They're food!

haha if animals are food, why the fuck don't you eat dogs and cats then?

this is basically what you sound like, "mmm me a caveman. me want meat. meat taste good. i eat animal. i go beat wife with club"

It's also rich for you arrogant veggie munchers to call us "barbarians". Do you really think you're some enlightened, advanced, improved variety of human because you don't eat meat?

yes. i think that in the future everyone will shift to vegetarianism.

Do you really think eating meat is beneath you?

yes.

Do you really think meat eaters are "morally corrupt"?

either morally corrupt like you, or morally apathetic.

Morality is nothing but an abstract idea thought up by man. Just because we can come up with this stuff doesn't mean it's always correct. The russians thought they had a good idea, but look what happened there. Adolf Hitler thought he had shit figured out, and look how wrong he was. In ancient times, many civilizations thought the earth was flat; well, I don't have to tell you how incorrect that is. These days, there are lots of bad ideas still floating around; some people think we came from the spirits of aliens sent here from an evil alien overlord. Worse, some people think everyone that doesn't believe in their god rightly deserve to be killed. And, some people think it's morally wrong to eat meat.

thanks for the irrelevant history lesson, the earth being flat and hitler's regime have nothing to do with the morality of diets but thanks anyways for your valuable insight.

Well, what else is a cow going to do? And what about the chickens? What do these creatures offer us, other than something to throw on the BBQ? Is a pig going to cure cancer for us? Will the cows go get jobs managing at Mcdonalds? No; these creatures are here for a reason: for the dominant life form on this planet to use as sustenance.

the cows and chickens probably wouldn't be so abundant if we didn't breed them to slaughter and eat. besides, if you weren't so retarded you could have made a better argument about how we should treat animals. maybe a pig won't cure cancer but a lab rat could help us get closer, but you don't even acknowledge that to support your lack of respect for animals. it's all just food to you, you fucking caveman.

Us humans happen to be the dominant life form, therefor, these creatures will continue to be raised solely for our benefit. That's how it is, that's how it always will be. And hey, if you don't want any, that's fine. More ham for me.

prove to me that is how it will always be. until then, keep shoving your disgusting face with ham. you are what you eat and you're fucking gross.

[skinny love]

township rebellion, do you believe in evolution? if you do, you should admit that believing that humans are eternally the dominant life form is a completely retarded idea. but retarded ideas seem to suit you well. :)

[Township Rebellion]

township rebellion, do you believe in evolution? if you do, you should admit that believing that humans are eternally the dominant life form is a completely retarded idea. but retarded ideas seem to suit you well. :)

Well sure that's a retarded idea, but I never said anything about humans eternally being the dominant life form, either. I know very well that the human race is going down hard eventually, but I guarentee you it'll have nothing to do with diet. Wherever did you get the retarded idea I thought otherwise? Do you really think humans will go extinct unless we all become vegetarian?

Speaking of retarded ideas, what exactly are you trying to say? That humans are all nazis and the animals are the poor oppressed jews, and that a whole bunch of elite predators from the animal kingdom will get together and start a war against us, taking back the earth to teach us a lesson in respect?? Do you think a race of super-Apes will take over and use us as food? Or do you just watch too many disney movies? Or is the lack of essential nutrients you would get from various meats causing your brain to malfunction?

Oooh! Ohhh! I missed a post! Holy shit, you double posted! Jesus I got you riled, considering the enormous amount of fagsauce spewed all over my screen from your direction! Wow you're a loser. And clearly overly combative for your "cause". Well I'm enjoying this so I'll play this line.

the truth hurts, i guess. it's okay, you'll get over it.

Well... considering "the truth" as it were came to me a long time ago, I guess that means I have gotten over it. It didn't hurt, though. It will doubly hurt you, though, and I know what the lack of a proper, meat-filled diet does to ones attitude. I suggest you have a massive burger before you start to actually contemplate "truth".

haha if animals are food, why the fuck don't you eat dogs and cats then?

Well, speaking from logic, cats and dogs are both entertaining while alive and also generally impractical to eat. Why the hell should I kill my dog when there's some perfectly good pork chops in the freezer? Don't be silly, now.

this is basically what you sound like, "mmm me a caveman. me want meat. meat taste good. i eat animal. i go beat wife with club"

Are you 12? I mean, hey, whatever makes your ego feel better.

yes. i think that in the future everyone will shift to vegetarianism.

LMFAO! Hey, I thought Pogs would last too.

yes.

no. (lulz)

either morally corrupt like you, or morally apathetic.

OMG... I can't breathe... fuck sakes... stop making jokes when you're in an argument. Seriously, there are others in the house that are trying to sleep, try to remain serious. It's easier to choke back my laughter that way.

...oh wait.

thanks for the irrelevant history lesson, the earth being flat and hitler's regime have nothing to do with the morality of diets but thanks anyways for your valuable insight.

Actually it has lots to do with this discussion. Those are all bad ideas. Vegetarianism under the guise of morality definitely is one of them.

the cows and chickens probably wouldn't be so abundant if we didn't breed them to slaughter and eat. besides, if you weren't so retarded you could have made a better argument about how we should treat animals. maybe a pig won't cure cancer but a lab rat could help us get closer, but you don't even acknowledge that to support your lack of respect for animals. it's all just food to you, you fucking caveman.

Oh, so you support scientists exploiting mice, then? You evil bitch, living your days out being forced to run frivolous excercises to benefit creatures other than your own kind is far nicer than lazily chewing grass all day, only to have your head chopped off before you get too old and miserable. All with the knowledge that your body was sacrificed in the name of feeding a hungry family after a long day of work.

I'm going to stop engaging your retort here and give you some insight into the barbarian you're arguing with. I don't think all animals are the same. For example, when I see a fat quadruped munching on some grass, I think "Hamburger". When I see an eagle sailing serenely through the sky, I see a graceful, strong creature that deserves respect. It's the master of the skies. When I see a bear.. well, I keep my distance. It's a bear. It'll tear you a few new assholes if you aren't careful. It carries on like so. You see, you seem to have a very black & white view of the world. I see multiple shades of many different colours, and black and white. Some animals are edible, and the ones that aren't should be left alone. It's not that I don't respect animals; I respect the farm animals because these are the creatures that will give their lives so I may continue mine. They may not have a choice, however if they weren't supposed to be eaten then they would've evolved in such a manner that they wouldn't be so easy to kill and wouldn't be so filling and nutritious. There's a reason why we don't eat lions, for example.

prove to me that is how it will always be. until then, keep shoving your disgusting face with ham. you are what you eat and you're fucking gross.

Sure: prove to me why everyone will turn vegetarian! How will this happen? How? Realize that people that are vegetarian usually are so because they can, they have the privilege of a comfortable life and little to complain about. Sooner or later, they'll find something to complain about. And that's the point - you live in a society that is able to shield you from the true horrors life can throw at you, so it's easy to latch on to something that is feasible in your world. Ask yourself: are you afraid of a militant group taking over your town, kidnapping your youngest boys and raping your women? Do you have enough money to not only pay your taxes, but feed and shelter yourself? Are you worried you might catch whatever local disease is going around killing your nieghbors?

No, I'll bet a vegetarian has none of these problems to worry about. It's not like all those people in the third world have the option of eating meat half the time anyway, they're too busy just trying to survive!

My point here is this: YOU are worried about the welfare of the animals, and you think we should all go vegetarian because it's "the right thing to do". I think you need a reality check. Not eating meat isn't going to solve world hunger, just exacerbate it (shit, you aren't even going to send the leftover animals to third world countries that need that food??). Not eating meat won't do anything to solve the problem of AIDS in africa, or the war in middle east. Not eating meat certainly won't solve the global economic crisis, either, in fact that would make it worse I'm sure, for obvious reasons. Not eating meat sure won't prevent volcanos from erupting, hurricanes from blowing, rivers from flooding, or albertans being born. Not eating meat certainly won't help all the homeless people; there'll be even less edible garbage around for them to live on. And there will be more homeless people because there will be alot of delicatessens, restaurants, and possibly grocery stores that'll either have to close down or seriously cut back on employees due to lack of business. And don't think you can replace all that meat with more grains and produce, either; all the grains and produce in the world won't keep the masses fed. Both the big, healthy herbivores and our physical design allowing for the processing of meat exists for a reason, you know.

And then there are more practical problems: what of those masses? Do you think they'll take a world-wide ban on meats lightly? This is coming from a realistic standpoint that the vast majority of humans will never give up on eating meat. It's as natural as taking a shit and having sex, humans have been eating meat since the dawn of our existence, do you really think the majority of these masses will actually agree with you and your cause? Hell no. You'll never convince everyone. There are far too many people like me, and there always will be, who will continue to eat and enjoy meat despite whatever nonsense a hippy tells them. Now; if in a few thousand years some significant planetary event happens where not eating meat becomes vital for human survival, as unlikely as that is, I'm sure nature will sort us out and over time we will become vegetarian. However, in our modern world, vegetarianism is entirely useless.

Lastly, I'd like to compliment on that 'caveman' remark(s) you made. Yes, we're a proud bunch, us cavemen. Seriously, we hang around outside all day in the buff, we grow our hair out because there's no need to cut it, we hunt for our dinner using spears which is especially fun, and in the evening the cave is so dark that we can all take our cavewomen to our corners in piece. And man, roasting a boar over a fire is quite possibly the awesomest thing ever, never mind how it tastes! You should come join us sometime, being a caveman rulz.

[DarkMage35]

i think that in the future everyone will shift to vegetarianism.

yes, [I think eating meat is beneath me]



[Yes, I think meat eaters are] either morally corrupt like you, or morally apathetic.

the cows and chickens probably wouldn't be so abundant if we didn't breed them to slaughter and eat. besides, if you weren't so retarded you could have made a better argument about how we should treat animals. maybe a pig won't cure cancer but a lab rat could help us get closer, but you don't even acknowledge that to support your lack of respect for animals. it's all just food to you, you fucking caveman.Hahahaha, oh this is rich. This post of yours alone proves youre naive, morally inconsistent (ie corrupt), and REALLY havent thought this through. It also shows signs of possible religious fanaticism. I dont even have to say anything anymore, do I?

[mr.blunt]

*snip*

Nice post.:thumbsup:

[Mullen]

yes. i think that in the future everyone will shift to vegetarianism.


But we just ditched being herbivores one evolutionary stage ago.. :(

http://www.bio.miami.edu/dana/pix/primatephylogeny.jpg

[skinny love]

Well sure that's a retarded idea, but I never said anything about humans eternally being the dominant life form, either. I know very well that the human race is going down hard eventually, but I guarentee you it'll have nothing to do with diet. Wherever did you get the retarded idea I thought otherwise?

you just contradicted what you said in an earlier post:

Us humans happen to be the dominant life form, therefor, these creatures will continue to be raised solely for our benefit. That's how it is, that's how it always will be.

first you claimed that humans are the dominant life form and that is how it will always be, and then you claim that you never said humans are eternally dominant. this is a blatant contradiction in your argument.

Speaking of retarded ideas, what exactly are you trying to say? That humans are all nazis and the animals are the poor oppressed jews, and that a whole bunch of elite predators from the animal kingdom will get together and start a war against us, taking back the earth to teach us a lesson in respect?? Do you think a race of super-Apes will take over and use us as food? Or do you just watch too many disney movies? Or is the lack of essential nutrients you would get from various meats causing your brain to malfunction?

where did i say any of this would happen? this is just an attempt to try to dismiss my arguments. if you sincerely think this is what i'm suggesting, you have poor reading comprehension.


Oooh! Ohhh! I missed a post! Holy shit, you double posted! Jesus I got you riled, considering the enormous amount of fagsauce spewed all over my screen from your direction! Wow you're a loser. And clearly overly combative for your "cause". Well I'm enjoying this so I'll play this line.

so i'm overly combative and a loser... and you reply by being overly combative and a loser. once again, hypocritical.

Well... considering "the truth" as it were came to me a long time ago, I guess that means I have gotten over it. It didn't hurt, though. It will doubly hurt you, though, and I know what the lack of a proper, meat-filled diet does to ones attitude. I suggest you have a massive burger before you start to actually contemplate "truth".


how does a lack of meat in a diet affect attitude? do you have any proof or is that just another one of your attempts to justify your diet?


Well, speaking from logic, cats and dogs are both entertaining while alive and also generally impractical to eat. Why the hell should I kill my dog when there's some perfectly good pork chops in the freezer? Don't be silly, now.

but you stated earlier that "animals are food." apparently animals are only food when it is convenient to you. animals are only food to you when you like the taste of their flesh. that's pretty selfish.


Are you 12? I mean, hey, whatever makes your ego feel better.



LMFAO! Hey, I thought Pogs would last too.



no. (lulz)



OMG... I can't breathe... fuck sakes... stop making jokes when you're in an argument. Seriously, there are others in the house that are trying to sleep, try to remain serious. It's easier to choke back my laughter that way.

...oh wait.



you know what happens when people realize they don't have anything valid to say to an argument? it looks a lot like this ^^^^

Actually it has lots to do with this discussion. Those are all bad ideas. Vegetarianism under the guise of morality definitely is one of them.

why is vegetarianism inherently a bad idea? if a vegetarian can be healthy and enjoy their diet, how is that a bad idea? you only think it's a bad idea because you disagree with it and that's pretty childish.



Oh, so you support scientists exploiting mice, then? You evil bitch, living your days out being forced to run frivolous excercises to benefit creatures other than your own kind is far nicer than lazily chewing grass all day, only to have your head chopped off before you get too old and miserable. All with the knowledge that your body was sacrificed in the name of feeding a hungry family after a long day of work.

i never said that i supported it.

I'm going to stop engaging your retort here and give you some insight into the barbarian you're arguing with. I don't think all animals are the same. For example, when I see a fat quadruped munching on some grass, I think "Hamburger". When I see an eagle sailing serenely through the sky, I see a graceful, strong creature that deserves respect. It's the master of the skies. When I see a bear.. well, I keep my distance. It's a bear. It'll tear you a few new assholes if you aren't careful. It carries on like so. You see, you seem to have a very black & white view of the world. I see multiple shades of many different colours, and black and white. Some animals are edible, and the ones that aren't should be left alone. It's not that I don't respect animals; I respect the farm animals because these are the creatures that will give their lives so I may continue mine.

hahaha that isn't even respect. you can't respect an animal that you've raised solely to slaughter and eat its carcass. you don't respect animals, respect has nothing to do with careless hedonism. if you're going to eat meat, that's fine but at least never pretend like you respect the cow whose life exists for your fucking hamburger.

They may not have a choice, however if they weren't supposed to be eaten then they would've evolved in such a manner that they wouldn't be so easy to kill and wouldn't be so filling and nutritious. There's a reason why we don't eat lions, for example.



so you're advocating the idea of survival of the fittest? you think that the strongest life forms should dominate the lower, vulnerable ones? hahaha that sounds exactly like something a barbarian and a caveman would say.

Sure: prove to me why everyone will turn vegetarian! How will this happen? How?

what a retarded question. how could i prove something that would happen in the future? that doesn't even make sense.

Realize that people that are vegetarian usually are so because they can, they have the privilege of a comfortable life and little to complain about. Sooner or later, they'll find something to complain about. And that's the point - you live in a society that is able to shield you from the true horrors life can throw at you, so it's easy to latch on to something that is feasible in your world. Ask yourself: are you afraid of a militant group taking over your town, kidnapping your youngest boys and raping your women? Do you have enough money to not only pay your taxes, but feed and shelter yourself? Are you worried you might catch whatever local disease is going around killing your nieghbors?

you're saying that the more comfortable and civilized a person is, the less dependent they are on meat. i agree, and that's exactly why meat eaters are more barbaric than vegetarians.


No, I'll bet a vegetarian has none of these problems to worry about. It's not like all those people in the third world have the option of eating meat half the time anyway, they're too busy just trying to survive!

HAHAHA i don't think you understand that you just supported my argument completely. the third world countries are more barbaric then any of the first world countries, and therefore they are dependent on meat. civilized and peaceful countries allow people to have vegetarian diets, hence why vegetarianism will become a lot more popular in the future.

My point here is this: YOU are worried about the welfare of the animals, and you think we should all go vegetarian because it's "the right thing to do". I think you need a reality check. Not eating meat isn't going to solve world hunger, just exacerbate it (shit, you aren't even going to send the leftover animals to third world countries that need that food??). Not eating meat won't do anything to solve the problem of AIDS in africa, or the war in middle east. Not eating meat certainly won't solve the global economic crisis, either, in fact that would make it worse I'm sure, for obvious reasons.

you have seriously misunderstood me and my argument. i'm not arguing that people in third world countries should all become vegetarians because that simply isn't practical. but YOU and darkmage35 and every other person with a little bit of money in this country can be a vegetarian. YOU are fortunate enough to have the option to eliminate the pain and death caused by the barbaric practice of slaughtering animals. the only reason you all still eat meat is because of 1) the taste or 2) convenience.

Not eating meat sure won't prevent volcanos from erupting, hurricanes from blowing, rivers from flooding, or albertans being born. Not eating meat certainly won't help all the homeless people; there'll be even less edible garbage around for them to live on. And there will be more homeless people because there will be alot of delicatessens, restaurants, and possibly grocery stores that'll either have to close down or seriously cut back on employees due to lack of business. And don't think you can replace all that meat with more grains and produce, either; all the grains and produce in the world won't keep the masses fed. Both the big, healthy herbivores and our physical design allowing for the processing of meat exists for a reason, you know.

i'm not arguing that vegetarianism will save the earth and fix all of its problems. but i am arguing that you have the opportunity to reduce some of the unnecessary slaughtering and death in this world. you are fortunate enough to have the choice of your diet. you can either choose to eat meat like our ancestors have for many years in a cycle of purposeless, vain birth and slaughter, or you can rise to the occasion and end the cycle. it's completely up to you, i'm just wondering why the taste of meat is really a good enough reason to kill these animals. is the taste of that hamburger really worth that animal's life and death? if your answer is yes, maybe you should think about your priorities.

And then there are more practical problems: what of those masses? Do you think they'll take a world-wide ban on meats lightly? This is coming from a realistic standpoint that the vast majority of humans will never give up on eating meat.

obviously we can't shift to vegetarianism overnight. even if EVERYONE wanted to, that isn't even physically possible. it will be a gradual transition, beginning with a few vegetarians and vegans. some will obviously be reluctant but that's just reality.

It's as natural as taking a shit and having sex, humans have been eating meat since the dawn of our existence, do you really think the majority of these masses will actually agree with you and your cause? Hell no. You'll never convince everyone. There are far too many people like me, and there always will be, who will continue to eat and enjoy meat despite whatever nonsense a hippy tells them. Now; if in a few thousand years some significant planetary event happens where not eating meat becomes vital for human survival, as unlikely as that is, I'm sure nature will sort us out and over time we will become vegetarian. However, in our modern world, vegetarianism is entirely useless.

first, you're right about one thing. i won't convince everyone to stop eating meat. defining what is natural is always a difficult task. eating food is natural but being a vegetarian isn't. kind of like how having sex is "natural" but using a condom isn't. it doesn't matter what's "natural." ethics aren't a matter of what our ancestors did anyways.


Lastly, I'd like to compliment on that 'caveman' remark(s) you made. Yes, we're a proud bunch, us cavemen. Seriously, we hang around outside all day in the buff, we grow our hair out because there's no need to cut it, we hunt for our dinner using spears which is especially fun, and in the evening the cave is so dark that we can all take our cavewomen to our corners in piece. And man, roasting a boar over a fire is quite possibly the awesomest thing ever, never mind how it tastes! You should come join us sometime, being a caveman rulz.

no thanks, i'm perfectly happy with my delicious soy milk and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. :)

that took way too long to type, so don't expect a lengthy response like this again.

[Jamie "fuck constipation" Lee Curtis]

that took way too long to type, so don't expect a lengthy response like this again.

Your arrogant self-righteousness is clearly evident in the intensity, and length of this bitching.

Jesus Blueberry Ballsack Christ.

[skinny love]

Your arrogant self-righteousness is clearly evident in the intensity, and length of this bitching.

Jesus Blueberry Ballsack Christ.

if you're not going to contribute to the discussion, why even bother posting?

[DarkMage35]

why is vegetarianism inherently a bad idea? if a vegetarian can be healthy and enjoy their diet, how is that a bad idea? you only think it's a bad idea because you disagree with it and that's pretty childish.If a vegetarian can be healthy and enjoy their diet, then they are a genetic freak, in the grand scheme of things. Go argue with your DNA.

hahaha that isn't even respect. you can't respect an animal that you've raised solely to slaughter and eat its carcass. you don't respect animals, respect has nothing to do with careless hedonism. if you're going to eat meat, that's fine but at least never pretend like you respect the cow whose life exists for your fucking hamburger.I respect cows. I also enjoy eating beef. In fact, I have some nice rump steak in the fridge that will be part of my lunch.

so you're advocating the idea of survival of the fittest? you think that the strongest life forms should dominate the lower, vulnerable ones? hahaha that sounds exactly like something a barbarian and a caveman would say.Its not so much advocation as observation. Survival of the fittest is just how the world works.

you're saying that the more comfortable and civilized a person is, the less dependent they are on meat. i agree, and that's exactly why meat eaters are more barbaric than vegetarians.I would hardly hold up western countries as shining examples of civilisation. People in rich countries may have the option of vegetarianism, but if you want to call a diet which will keep you alive but not entirely healthy better then a diet which will do both, youve clearly made a mistake somewhere.

you have seriously misunderstood me and my argument. i'm not arguing that people in third world countries should all become vegetarians because that simply isn't practical. but YOU and darkmage35 and every other person with a little bit of money in this country can be a vegetarian. YOU are fortunate enough to have the option to eliminate the pain and death caused by the barbaric practice of slaughtering animals. the only reason you all still eat meat is because of 1) the taste or 2) convenience.Or 3) Its healthy, and 4) Its ethically fine. And no, its not barbaric. Barbaric would be ritual drawn out slaughtering and possibly sacrifices to non-existent gods. Barbaric would also be fanatical devotion to a stupid idea you havent really thought through because it was what you were taught since childhood. Y'know, like your attitude to vegetarianism.

i'm not arguing that vegetarianism will save the earth and fix all of its problems. but i am arguing that you have the opportunity to reduce some of the unnecessary slaughtering and death in this world. you are fortunate enough to have the choice of your diet. you can either choose to eat meat like our ancestors have for many years in a cycle of purposeless, vain birth and slaughter, or you can rise to the occasion and end the cycle. it's completely up to you, i'm just wondering why the taste of meat is really a good enough reason to kill these animals. is the taste of that hamburger really worth that animal's life and death? if your answer is yes, maybe you should think about your priorities.Its ALL purposeless, no matter what you do. Our ancestors having eaten meat is actually a very good argument for continuing to do so, unless there are a lot of new breakthroughs in genetics I dont know about. And taste is not the reason, at least not for those of us who've thought about it.

Look, go reconcile your views on the meat industry with your views on lab rats, for starters. Then go read up on the health dangers of soy. Go learn some critical thinking skills as well at some point, and check your beliefs. At the moment youre just a misguided idiot who is mainly arguing with someone who isnt particularly good at justifying their diet (no offense meant, Township Rebellion).

[skinny love]

i'm not going to dissect your post because it's a waste of time for both of us. you're misjudging my health, but i realize i won't be able to convince you otherwise. we're both stubborn and we're obviously not going to convince each other with our opposing views.

you should know that i am healthy, whether or not you believe it, and i have constantly reevaluated my views regarding my diet. it is possible to be a healthy vegetarian, i am living proof, and no i'm not a genetic freak. i'm perfectly normal. every check up at the doctor i've had since i can remember has been overwhelmingly positive and yet i'm probably not physically different from you or township rebellion at all.

it is entirely possible to be a healthy vegetarian. you can argue how soy is bad for you and there are just as many arguments against cow's milk.

enjoy your diet, and i'll enjoy mine. we obviously have different opinions about the concepts of respect and the role of human life, and nothing is going to change about that. it's just unsettling when you attribute my diet to ignorance or poor health choices, because i can assure that's the farthest from the truth.

[Township Rebellion]

Go learn some critical thinking skills as well at some point, and check your beliefs. At the moment youre just a misguided idiot who is mainly arguing with someone who isnt particularly good at justifying their diet (no offense meant, Township Rebellion).

That's my point though; I don't feel the need to justify my diet because I don't have that same guilty conscience attitude that many vegetarians seem to have.

I do agree the matter is kinda subjective and these are all things that only occupy stubborn minds. I guess the point is not alot of people really care.

[skinny love]

it's not always a matter of guilt.

[Tokerface]

I really feel about the animals and shit, but you really need meat for balance diet. I mean, vegetarians have to take protein pills for fucks sake

Plus meat tastes delicious

[skinny love]

hahaha i've never taken a protein pill in my life.

i do eat a lot of walnuts and peanut butter though. soy milk has protein as well.

[Snoopy]

hahaha i've never taken a protein pill in my life.

i do eat a lot of walnuts and peanut butter though. soy milk has protein as well.

Sperm too. Drink a lot of that.

[skinny love]

Sperm too. Drink a lot of that.

speaking from experience again?

[Snoopy]

speaking from experience again?

Yes actually I am. Every vegetarian I ever dated was a swallower.

[pengd0t]

Wow, I'm not sure I remember a Jackketch post so high in bullshit. You had a bad experience... but you were a drunk... Obviously you were doing it wrong...
You probably had bad sexual experiences too, but that's not a legitimate reason to be asexual.

I'm a vegetarian and I didn't even know they made protein pills. I'm not sure why you'd need them since protein deficiency is pretty much unheard of in the developed countries. You just don't need that much of it, so if you aren't just starving to death in general, odds are you're getting plenty.

Really, if you eat a somewhat varied diet, regardless of whether it contains meat, you'll probably be just fine.

At the moment, I've found that I don't require contributing to the way food-animals are raised and killed, and so I don't. As a result I feel much better and have more energy (that was the first thing I noticed after not eating meat for a little while).

If I end up living on a little plot of land in the middle of nowhere with access to a river/stream/lake of some sort, I'll probably catch an occasional fish or something like that. But until I'm out and living in a place where I can assert my place in the environment's food chain as an active, local participant, I'll not be eating any meats.

I think the whole health issue is just silly. Does anyone really believe that the average vegetarian is less healthy than the average... everyone else? I'm not sure it's quite as obvious in the rest of the world, but in the United States, particularly the south, it's pretty obvious who is a vegetarian based strictly on their circumference.
There are bodybuilders who are vegetarian or vegan, and they may take protein supplements, since all of them do anyway... but that shows that even with an abnormally high need for protein, meat just isn't necessary.

And if we were evolved to to be able to eat one another, what does it matter?
I am aware that I contain the enzymes to break down meats if I need to kill something else to keep myself alive. It's a pretty good survival mechanism. But I don't need it at the moment... I mean, it looks like we evolved to beat the shit out of one another all the time too and I wouldn't mind if we started thinking about cutting back on that as well.

[skinny love]

personally i think seafood doesn't taste very good. so i agree with everything you said except for the part about fishing.

[reggie_love]

Wait! Shit! I hit "yes" when I meant "no".

I love me some meat in my mouth.

[Bender]

The way I see it, animals were put on this planet to benefit humans. This doesn't mean torture them, or have sadistic weird dog eating shit. Cow's produce milk, hide, and meat. The animal was clearly here to benefit the human race. I'm all for eating meat, as long as the animals are killed quickly and properly with no suffering. Also, with the human population rising so much, were only trying to keep up with our growing population. We can't just eat berries and chew on some bark. I doubt thats how evolution (or God) wanted things to play out.

[pengd0t]

personally i think seafood doesn't taste very good. so i agree with everything you said except for the part about fishing.

"Seafood" has always struck me as an incredibly arrogant, derogatory, dismissive thing to say... as though anything that might live in fresh or salt-water is only significant in that it can be killed and put in our mouths.

[neon]

vegan. eating meat is so ghey-ballz.

Human Physiology & Comparative Anatomy
http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet_physiology.asp

The Comparative Anatomy of Eating
by Milton R. Mills, M.D.
http://www.ecologos.org/anatomy.htm


Humans are most often described as "omnivores". This classification is based on the "observation" that humans generally eat a wide variety of plant and animal foods. However, culture, custom and training are confounding variables when looking at human dietary practices. Thus, "observation" is not the best technique to use when trying to identify the most "natural" diet for humans. While most humans are clearly "behavioral" omnivores, the question still remains as to whether humans are anatomically suited for a diet that includes animal as well as plant foods.

A better and more objective technique is to look at human anatomy and physiology. Mammals are anatomically and physiologically adapted to procure and consume particular kinds of diets. (It is common practice when examining fossils of extinct mammals to examine anatomical features to deduce the animal's probable diet.) Therefore, we can look at mammalian carnivores, herbivores (plant-eaters) and omnivores to see which anatomical and physiological features are associated with each kind of diet. Then we can look at human anatomy and physiology to see in which group we belong.

Oral Cavity

Carnivores have a wide mouth opening in relation to their head size. This confers obvious advantages in developing the forces used in seizing, killing and dismembering prey. Facial musculature is reduced since these muscles would hinder a wide gape, and play no part in the animal's preparation of food for swallowing. In all mammalian carnivores, the jaw joint is a simple hinge joint lying in the same plane as the teeth. This type of joint is extremely stable and acts as the pivot point for the "lever arms" formed by the upper and lower jaws. The primary muscle used for operating the jaw in carnivores is the temporalis muscle. This muscle is so massive in carnivores that it accounts for most of the bulk of the sides of the head (when you pet a dog, you are petting its temporalis muscles). The "angle" of the mandible (lower jaw) in carnivores is small. This is because the muscles (masseter and pterygoids) that attach there are of minor importance in these animals. The lower jaw of carnivores cannot move forward, and has very limited side-to-side motion. When the jaw of a carnivore closes, the blade-shaped cheek molars slide past each other to give a slicing motion that is very effective for shearing meat off bone.

The teeth of a carnivore are discretely spaced so as not to trap stringy debris. The incisors are short, pointed and prong-like and are used for grasping and shredding. The canines are greatly elongated and dagger-like for stabbing, tearing and killing prey. The molars (carnassials) are flattened and triangular with jagged edges such that they function like serrated-edged blades. Because of the hinge-type joint, when a carnivore closes its jaw, the cheek teeth come together in a back-to-front fashion giving a smooth cutting motion like the blades on a pair of shears.

The saliva of carnivorous animals does not contain digestive enzymes. When eating, a mammalian carnivore gorges itself rapidly and does not chew its food. Since proteolytic (protein-digesting) enzymes cannot be liberated in the mouth due to the danger of autodigestion (damaging the oral cavity), carnivores do not need to mix their food with saliva; they simply bite off huge chunks of meat and swallow them whole.

According to evolutionary theory, the anatomical features consistent with an herbivorous diet represent a more recently derived condition than that of the carnivore. Herbivorous mammals have well-developed facial musculature, fleshy lips, a relatively small opening into the oral cavity and a thickened, muscular tongue. The lips aid in the movement of food into the mouth and, along with the facial (cheek) musculature and tongue, assist in the chewing of food. In herbivores, the jaw joint has moved to position above the plane of the teeth. Although this type of joint is less stable than the hinge-type joint of the carnivore, it is much more mobile and allows the complex jaw motions needed when chewing plant foods. Additionally, this type of jaw joint allows the upper and lower cheek teeth to come together along the length of the jaw more or less at once when the mouth is closed in order to form grinding platforms. (This type of joint is so important to a plant-eating animal, that it is believed to have evolved at least 15 different times in various plant-eating mammalian species.) The angle of the mandible has expanded to provide a broad area of attachment for the well-developed masseter and pterygoid muscles (these are the major muscles of chewing in plant-eating animals). The temporalis muscle is small and of minor importance. The masseter and pterygoid muscles hold the mandible in a sling-like arrangement and swing the jaw from side-to-side. Accordingly, the lower jaw of plant-eating mammals has a pronounced sideways motion when eating. This lateral movement is necessary for the grinding motion of chewing.

The dentition of herbivores is quite varied depending on the kind of vegetation a particular species is adapted to eat. Although these animals differ in the types and numbers of teeth they posses, the various kinds of teeth when present, share common structural features. The incisors are broad, flattened and spade-like. Canines may be small as in horses, prominent as in hippos, pigs and some primates (these are thought to be used for defense) or absent altogether. The molars, in general, are squared and flattened on top to provide a grinding surface. The molars cannot vertically slide past one another in a shearing/slicing motion, but they do horizontally slide across one another to crush and grind. The surface features of the molars vary depending on the type of plant material the animal eats. The teeth of herbivorous animals are closely grouped so that the incisors form an efficient cropping/biting mechanism, and the upper and lower molars form extended platforms for crushing and grinding. The "walled-in" oral cavity has a lot of potential space that is realized during eating.

These animals carefully and methodically chew their food, pushing the food back and forth into the grinding teeth with the tongue and cheek muscles. This thorough process is necessary to mechanically disrupt plant cell walls in order to release the digestible intracellular contents and ensure thorough mixing of this material with their saliva. This is important because the saliva of plant-eating mammals often contains carbohydrate-digesting enzymes which begin breaking down food molecules while the food is still in the mouth.

Stomach and Small Intestine

Striking differences between carnivores and herbivores are seen in these organs. Carnivores have a capacious simple (single-chambered) stomach. The stomach volume of a carnivore represents 60-70% of the total capacity of the digestive system. Because meat is relatively easily digested, their small intestines (where absorption of food molecules takes place) are short -- about three to five or six times the body length. Since these animals average a kill only about once a week, a large stomach volume is advantageous because it allows the animals to quickly gorge themselves when eating, taking in as much meat as possible at one time which can then be digested later while resting. Additionally, the ability of the carnivore stomach to secrete hydrochloric acid is exceptional. Carnivores are able to keep their gastric pH down around 1-2 even with food present. This is necessary to facilitate protein breakdown and to kill the abundant dangerous bacteria often found in decaying flesh foods.

Because of the relative difficulty with which various kinds of plant foods are broken down (due to large amounts of indigestible fibers), herbivores have significantly longer and in some cases, far more elaborate guts than carnivores. Herbivorous animals that consume plants containing a high proportion of cellulose must "ferment" (digest by bacterial enzyme action) their food to obtain the nutrient value. They are classified as either "ruminants" (foregut fermenters) or hindgut fermenters. The ruminants are the plant-eating animals with the celebrated multiple-chambered stomachs. Herbivorous animals that eat a diet of relatively soft vegetation do not need a multiple-chambered stomach. They typically have a simple stomach, and a long small intestine. These animals ferment the difficult-to-digest fibrous portions of their diets in their hindguts (colons). Many of these herbivores increase the sophistication and efficiency of their GI tracts by including carbohydrate-digesting enzymes in their saliva. A multiple-stomach fermentation process in an animal which consumed a diet of soft, pulpy vegetation would be energetically wasteful. Nutrients and calories would be consumed by the fermenting bacteria and protozoa before reaching the small intestine for absorption. The small intestine of plant-eating animals tends to be very long (greater than 10 times body length) to allow adequate time and space for absorption of the nutrients.

Colon

The large intestine (colon) of carnivores is simple and very short, as its only purposes are to absorb salt and water. It is approximately the same diameter as the small intestine and, consequently, has a limited capacity to function as a reservoir. The colon is short and non-pouched. The muscle is distributed throughout the wall, giving the colon a smooth cylindrical appearance. Although a bacterial population is present in the colon of carnivores, its activities are essentially putrefactive.

In herbivorous animals, the large intestine tends to be a highly specialized organ involved in water and electrolyte absorption, vitamin production and absorption, and/or fermentation of fibrous plant materials. The colons of herbivores are usually wider than their small intestine and are relatively long. In some plant-eating mammals, the colon has a pouched appearance due to the arrangement of the muscle fibers in the intestinal wall. Additionally, in some herbivores the cecum (the first section of the colon) is quite large and serves as the primary or accessory fermentation site.

What About Omnivores?

One would expect an omnivore to show anatomical features which equip it to eat both animal and plant foods. According to evolutionary theory, carnivore gut structure is more primitive than herbivorous adaptations. Thus, an omnivore might be expected to be a carnivore which shows some gastrointestinal tract adaptations to an herbivorous diet.

This is exactly the situation we find in the Bear, Raccoon and certain members of the Canine families. (This discussion will be limited to bears because they are, in general, representative of the anatomical omnivores.) Bears are classified as carnivores but are classic anatomical omnivores. Although they eat some animal foods, bears are primarily herbivorous with 70-80% of their diet comprised of plant foods. (The one exception is the Polar bear which lives in the frozen, vegetation poor arctic and feeds primarily on seal blubber.) Bears cannot digest fibrous vegetation well, and therefore, are highly selective feeders. Their diet is dominated by primarily succulent lent herbage, tubers and berries. Many scientists believe the reason bears hibernate is because their chief food (succulent vegetation) not available in the cold northern winters. (Interestingly, Polar bears hibernate during the summer months when seals are unavailable.)

In general, bears exhibit anatomical features consistent with a carnivorous diet. The jaw joint of bears is in the same plane as the molar teeth. The temporalis muscle is massive, and the angle of the mandible is small corresponding to the limited role the pterygoid and masseter muscles play in operating the jaw. The small intestine is short ( less than five times body length) like that of the pure carnivores, and the colon is simple, smooth and short. The most prominent adaptation to an herbivorous diet in bears (and other "anatomical" omnivores) is the modification of their dentition. Bears retain the peg-like incisors, large canines and shearing premolars of a carnivore; but the molars have become squared with rounded cusps for crushing and grinding. Bears have not, however, adopted the flattened, blunt nails seen in most herbivores and retain the elongated, pointed claws of a carnivore.

An animal which captures, kills and eats prey must have the physical equipment which makes predation practical and efficient. Since bears include significant amounts of meat in their diet, they must retain the anatomical features that permit them to capture and kill prey animals. Hence, bears have a jaw structure, musculature and dentition which enable them to develop and apply the forces necessary to kill and dismember prey even though the majority of their diet is comprised of plant foods. Although an herbivore-style jaw joint (above the plane of the teeth) is a far more efficient joint for crushing and grinding vegetation and would potentially allow bears to exploit a wider range of plant foods in their diet, it is a much weaker joint than the hinge-style carnivore joint. The herbivore-style jaw joint is relatively easily dislocated and would not hold up well under the stresses of subduing struggling prey and/or crushing bones (nor would it allow the wide gape carnivores need). In the wild, an animal with a dislocated jaw would either soon starve to death or be eaten by something else and would, therefore, be selected against. A given species cannot adopt the weaker but more mobile and efficient herbivore-style joint until it has committed to an essentially plant-food diet test it risk jaw dislocation, death and ultimately, extinction.

What About Me?

The human gastrointestinal tract features the anatomical modifications consistent with an herbivorous diet. Humans have muscular lips and a small opening into the oral cavity. Many of the so-called "muscles of expression" are actually the muscles used in chewing. The muscular and agile tongue essential for eating, has adapted to use in speech and other things. The mandibular joint is flattened by a cartilaginous plate and is located well above the plane of the teeth. The temporalis muscle is reduced. The characteristic "square jaw" of adult males reflects the expanded angular process of the mandible and the enlarged masseter/pterygoid muscle group. The human mandible can move forward to engage the incisors, and side-to-side to crush and grind.

Human teeth are also similar to those found in other herbivores with the exception of the canines (the canines of some of the apes are elongated and are thought to be used for display and/or defense). Our teeth are rather large and usually abut against one another. The incisors are flat and spade-like, useful for peeling, snipping and biting relatively soft materials. The canines are neither serrated nor conical, but are flattened, blunt and small and function Like incisors. The premolars and molars are squarish, flattened and nodular, and used for crushing, grinding and pulping noncoarse foods.

Human saliva contains the carbohydrate-digesting enzyme, salivary amylase. This enzyme is responsible for the majority of starch digestion. The esophagus is narrow and suited to small, soft balls of thoroughly chewed food. Eating quickly, attempting to swallow a large amount of food or swallowing fibrous and/or poorly chewed food (meat is the most frequent culprit) often results in choking in humans.

Man's stomach is single-chambered, but only moderately acidic. (Clinically, a person presenting with a gastric pH less than 4-5 when there is food in the stomach is cause for concern.) The stomach volume represents about 21-27% of the total volume of the human GI tract. The stomach serves as a mixing and storage chamber, mixing and liquefying ingested foodstuffs and regulating their entry into the small intestine. The human small intestine is long, averaging from 10 to 11 times the body length. (Our small intestine averages 22 to 30 feet in length. Human body size is measured from the top of the head to end of the spine and averages between two to three feet in length in normal-sized individuals.)

The human colon demonstrates the pouched structure peculiar to herbivores. The distensible large intestine is larger in cross-section than the small intestine, and is relatively long. Man's colon is responsible for water and electrolyte absorption and vitamin production and absorption. There is also extensive bacterial fermentation of fibrous plant materials, with the production and absorption of significant amounts of food energy (volatile short-chain fatty acids) depending upon the fiber content of the diet. The extent to which the fermentation and absorption of metabolites takes place in the human colon has only recently begun to be investigated.

In conclusion, we see that human beings have the gastrointestinal tract structure of a "committed" herbivore. Humankind does not show the mixed structural features one expects and finds in anatomical omnivores such as bears and raccoons. Thus, from comparing the gastrointestinal tract of humans to that of carnivores, herbivores and omnivores we must conclude that humankind's GI tract is designed for a purely plant-food diet.

Summary

Facial Muscles

CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed

Jaw Type

CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle

Jaw Joint Location

CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars

Jaw Motion

CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

Major Jaw Muscles

CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids

Mouth Opening vs. Head Size

CARNIVORE: Large HERBIVORE: Small OMNIVORE: Large HUMAN:
Small

Teeth: Incisors

CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

Teeth: Canines

CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted

Teeth: Molars

CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing

CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva

CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

Stomach Type

CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple

Stomach Acidity

CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach

Stomach Capacity

CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

Length of Small Intestine

CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

Colon

CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated

Liver

CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

Kidney

CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine

Nails

CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails

[Please insert username]

What neon said.

tl;dr Also no one gives a shit?

[neon]

tl;dr Also no one gives a shit? eating meat is so ghey-ballz. and unnecessary. without a doubt it's bad for the environment and the eco-sphere. it's for the delusional wimp-o-matics, the unthinking social cowardly lions, and the "successful" apathetic & uncompassionate DUMBY-ist drones among us. Period.

[Mullen]

tl;dr Also no one gives a shit?

This.

Get over it. You're an omnivore, veggie-humper.

[Bender]

This.

Get over it. You're an omnivore, veggie-humper.

That

[pengd0t]

@neon
I read it all and found it interesting.