Hitler should have won the war

[Mirana]

Things would have sucked from like 1944-1970'ish, it would be harsh and brutal. But since the allies won things were great from 1944-1970. Where everyone could afford a mortgage and a house, even if you were a fucking bum! but after the 70's almost half the country is on minimum wage and can barely afford bills and food. Let alone anything else nice.

But think about it if hitler won, after the shit storm settles down we would probably have a much better system. Look at the real problem today, it's lower class communities committing crimes. Most of them it's not their fault, they are just born to be non-white and can't help it they have a set IQ of 40-60. And being raised by a community of other lowlife minorities, how can they know anything else but crime?

Another problem is "human rights" have spun out of control. Every woman and gay person thinks they deserve everything, just cause they know cops can't do shit. Sit in the street protesting and bitching until they get their way, and the government needs to waste tax dollars, cause we follow stupid laws to protect idiots like this.

Control and harsh punishment is the only way. There's gonna be un happy people either way, I rather live in a world where I'm being watched 24/7 by the government then stay at home wondering if the blacks are raping and killing my family.

we'll have a better economy if we had a communism banking system. :thumbcat:

[is all mememememe with me]

well that's a matter of opinion isn't it? fact is he didn't cause he simply wasn't up to the job. end of story.

next...

[Rolf]

Fuck yeah, Ustashe, adds Rolf.

[Cory]

OP doesn't know very much about WWII. And "communism banking system"? WTF?

Even though you're trolling we can make something of this thread.

But while I've got you, in all likleyhood Hitler winning WWII consists of German/European Axis conquest of Mainland Europe from the Atlantic to the Volga. Italy (with German aid) securing Libya, Egypt, and the Suez. This is a best-case scenario for Germany. Japan still gets beaten. France is rebuilt in the Vichy image, but still losses Alsace-Lorraine, and has limitations on it's armor and air force development. Germany has a major insurgency problem on it's hand in the East when they implement Generalplan Ost in full force. They should be able to put it down however, over time and it will delay their progress in the alternate Cold War with the Western Powers (no, Germany isn't going to "conquer America" or such nonsense in WWII).

German Europa (an EU-like organization, dominated by Germany) is actually going to have a hard time ahead of it in this scenario. They will be encircled by the Allies to the West and the Soviets still seething for vengeance in the East. They will be want for overseas allies outside of their immediate area. The Allies will have global force protection, the Germans not so much. Also they will initially fall behind the Americans in atomic weapons production and deployment. They would likely face a similar "atomic deficit" akin to what the Soviets experienced in the late 40's-early 50's IRL.

So yeah, alternate Cold War basically. By no means was Nazi Germany in WWII going to "conquer the world". That's a very cartoon version of history.

[JC Denton]

This has to be the most idiotic half-baked idea I've ever heard.

Although I am curious what it would be like if Hitler did win the war - this has no doubt happened in some parallel universes.

[Mirana]

OP doesn't know very much about WWII. And "communism banking system"? WTF?

You tell me I don't know very much but you don't say why. So apparently I DO KNOW A LOT.

And how can you not know what communist banking is?

[Cory]

You tell me I don't know very much but you don't say why. So apparently I DO KNOW A LOT.

:rolleyes: You think Nazi Germany could take over the world. See my edited post for details.

And how can you not know what communist banking is?

There is no such thing as "communist banking". Unless you're trying to be "witty" and referring to Fractional Reserve Banking, which isn't communist anyways.

[Mirana]

You clearly haven't studied economics at all, I learned about communist banking in 7th grade. What country did you receive your elementary school graduation from? :facepalm:

you just edited your post with a bunch of nonsense. Germans were very close to having nuclear missiles. They would have easily taken out new york and moscow, after that all nations would come under their control.

remember when we nuked japan and controlled the entire world for 50+ years? this is how our economy grew so strong, everyone gave in to the USA and signed contracts.

[Cory]

You clearly haven't studied economics at all, I learned about communist banking in 7th grade. What country did you receive your elementary school graduation from? :facepalm:

Cite it then, from an objective source. Oh right, you can't, it doesn't exist. FYI, The USSR did not have a "communist banking system", they were not communist.

Germans were very close to having nuclear missiles.

No they weren't. Their science was flawed and they would get their first bomb probably sometime in the late 40's-early 50's. They even fucking cancelled the project in 1942 because they didn't think they could get a workable device between 5-10 years.

The Germans were nowhere fucking near getting a nuke. That's one of the more annoying myths about WWII.

They would have easily taken out new york and moscow, after that all nations would come under their control.

As I've already gone over the premise of nuking Moscow and NY is ASB. Even if they did, "all nations" would most certainly not have "come under their control". How would the Germans occupy this area? How would they possibly administer it? Oh wait, they can't. But you wouldn't know very much about the actual details of history so whatever.

Also, even if the Germans make a nuclear device, by then the Americans will already have them too (as I went over formerly). Also we would have the economy to massively outproduce Germany in this regard (yes, even if they "liek nukzord new york and DC!!!11).

remember when we nuked japan and controlled the entire world for 50+ years? this is how our economy grew so strong, everyone gave in to the USA and signed contracts.

No, because that never happened as you describe it. This thing call the "Cold War" happened. The Cold War was when, after WWII the Western Powers and the USSR competed for the advantage over the other in global influence.

Also, the reason the American economy grew so much after the war is because out mainland was virtually untouched by the ravages of war, unlike almost everyone else. The nations of Western Europe and the Pacific rim needed aid and investment in their economy, that's why they allied with us. Not because France and Britain thought "oh my the Americans will nuke us!".

:picard:

[Mirana]

Fucking kid doesn't know what communist banking is, have you ever heard of the communist manifesto? written by karl marx. A man much smarter then you, he talks about state property. Heard of this shit bitch? bet you haven't, you're to busy reading conspiracy books on how Germans didn't have nukes until 5-10 years later? like you for serious bro?

that shit is just ridiculous, germany was ready to nuke your grandpas face off. The only reason they didn't was cause german scientists pretended not to have it complete. In a few weeks they would have found someone else to complete the near-finished project. And then they would have nuked everyone and everything that didn't obey their orders.

you really need to brush up on your WWII history, I feel like I'm debating with a highschool stoner.

[Cerberus]

Bitches don't know bout communist banking.

[Cory]

Fucking kid doesn't know what communist banking is, have you ever heard of the communist manifesto? written by karl marx. A man much smarter then you, he talks about state property. Heard of this shit bitch? bet you haven't, you're to busy reading conspiracy books on how Germans didn't have nukes until 5-10 years later? like you for serious bro?

In the Communist Manifesto Marx outlines how the state would play a role in the economy in a post-revolutionary socialist society. Credit itself would be abolished as property would be shared. There is no "money" in a Marxian society and thusly there is no such thing as "communist banking". The "state" in a Marxian society would be the representation of the working classes via worker's councils. The very definition of state takes on a whole new meaning in a socialist society according to Marx.

So no, there is no "communist banking". You're literally making this up on the spot.

that shit is just ridiculous, germany was ready to nuke your grandpas face off. The only reason they didn't was cause german scientists pretended not to have it complete. In a few weeks they would have found someone else to complete the near-finished project. And then they would have nuked everyone and everything that didn't obey their orders.


:facepalm: No they weren't because there was no "near finished German a-bomb". You're literally making it up as you go along as part of your act. Care to cite any credible source claiming that the Germans had a near-finished nuclear weapon? You won't, because you can't.

Also, you forget that even if Germany did magically have nukes in 1945, the Americans would have them too and have the economy to make more. Also, Germany can't turn the weapons out at a rate to save them even if the Americans didn't have nukes. They wouldn't have enough.

It's clear from this engagement that you literally don't know anything of merit about this subject, and probably most others judging by your performance here. You probably got your opinion on this from Spike TV. Ya know, that stupid show they did going on about how if Germany won at D-Day they would've won the war and conquered America. :rolleyes:

[JC Denton]

America got nukes because they stole the German scientists that worked on the project, after the war was over. The Soviets did this too. I highly doubt America would invent nukes before Germany if it weren't for this.

[Mirana]

lol @ tags in this thread

Tags
hitler, war, won

you know what that means Cory? it means zoklet sides with me. You should read the manifesto again cause it's all gibberish you're saying. It talks about merchantilism and how foreign trade routes wont work. That itself is communist banking. In broken down terms.

please just stop spewing your ignorance.

[AdMech]

Re: nukes, German scientists were basically the reason we got the bomb, yeah... but that said, even in this alternate history these scientists would still be in the U.S. (unless some of them were imported/emigrated after the point in time the timelines diverge - 194X?), so America probably would have the bomb first.

Regarding the economy of America vs Nazi Europe, however, I could see the production rates being pretty close - remember, this wouldn't be the U.S. vs Germany, but the U.S. vs the resources of all of Europe. America would have more land and resources, but that might not be the most important thing in making nukes... I'd say manpower would be the deciding factor, and Europe would have the edge there.

They will be encircled by the Allies to the West...
Agreed, except for this. There wouldn't be anything to the west to encircle them, except for America - across the ocean. We could say they conquer England, or that they don't, but in any case I wouldn't call it encirclement. We also have to consider what we would call the Nazis winning: did America and England sue for peace? Was England conquered, or not? What's the status of Russia - did the Wehrmacht manage to stay in Moscow?

Hitler probably wouldn't survive too long, considering his health, and his replacement - assuming the question of succession didn't send Nazi Europe into chaos - would probably be more effective, as Hitler was becoming a liability before the close of the war. Also considering that Hitler initially wanted to be allied with the U.S. and England, and that in this alternate history scenario the Nazis already achieved their basic aim, I could see the "alternate Cold War" powering down earlier than the real one did.

I've also read an analysis on what a Nazi-dominated Europe would have probably looked like, and while any such analysis must, of course, be pure conjecture, the author made a good point that concentration camps would probably not be created anywhere else, and Jews would more likely be deported or "merely" oppressed rather than killed (except where they already were, and possibly a few more in the East).

[Cory]

Agreed, except for this. There wouldn't be anything to the west to encircle them, except for America - across the ocean. We could say they conquer England, or that they don't, but in any case I wouldn't call it encirclement. We also have to consider what we would call the Nazis winning: did America and England sue for peace? Was England conquered, or not? What's the status of Russia - did the Wehrmacht manage to stay in Moscow?

Well my example called for Axis conquest of Russia to the Volga and Egypt to the Suez. Allied forces continue to build up in Britain until launching a failed invasion of Europe leading to an unofficial white peace. Germany does not conquer England (I don't think they could to begin with, but I digress). This leads to a situation in which Allied forces are still strong in Britain and to the East the USSR supports partisan groups against German occupation forces and rebuilds it's economy in preparation for the inevitable vengeance war.

Hitler probably wouldn't survive too long, considering his health, and his replacement - assuming the question of succession didn't send Nazi Europe into chaos - would probably be more effective, as Hitler was becoming a liability before the close of the war.

Yeah who takes over afterwards is interesting. Keep in mind that after the war Hitler planned to more or less phase out the Wehrmacht and replace it with the Waffen SS entirely. So you would have the smaller but more elite SS divisions supplemented by the AirForce and the 'National Armies' (France, Italy, Hungary, ect). You could very well see the diminishing of influence from the traditional general staff and a rise of a new military hierarchy from within the SS.

This means that I see a bright future for the radical Nazi elements of the leadership going forward. The 'moderates' will have lost their only institution, the traditional military. Fuhrer Heydrich?

Also considering that Hitler initially wanted to be allied with the U.S. and England, and that in this alternate history scenario the Nazis already achieved their basic aim, I could see the "alternate Cold War" powering down earlier than the real one did.

I don't know, remember that although Hitler may have wanted to make accords with the West the West most definitely wasn't interested in making accords with him. Also to be honest I think the whole "Anglo-German" alliance idea Hitler had was a pipe-dream really. Britain can be made to make peace, but ally Germany? Nonsense.

I've also read an analysis on what a Nazi-dominated Europe would have probably looked like, and while any such analysis must, of course, be pure conjecture, the author made a good point that concentration camps would probably not be created anywhere else, and Jews would more likely be deported or "merely" oppressed rather than killed (except where they already were, and possibly a few more in the East).

To be honest I think at that point it would be easier and more economical for the Nazis to simply exterminate the Jews entirely. Remember the Final Solution came about after the influx of Jews under Nazi control from Operation Barbarossa. In this scenario with Germany already killing upwards of 50,000,000 Slavs and Poles via starvation, why not just finish the Jews also?

[Rolf]

'Tis just not a true history forum if there is not at least fifteen alternate WWII scenarios floating around, notes Rolf.

[Ghost Buster]

Things would have sucked from like 1944-1970'ish, it would be harsh and brutal. But since the allies won things were great from 1944-1970. Where everyone could afford a mortgage and a house, even if you were a fucking bum! but after the 70's almost half the country is on minimum wage and can barely afford bills and food. Let alone anything else nice.

But think about it if hitler won, after the shit storm settles down we would probably have a much better system. Look at the real problem today, it's lower class communities committing crimes. Most of them it's not their fault, they are just born to be non-white and can't help it they have a set IQ of 40-60. And being raised by a community of other lowlife minorities, how can they know anything else but crime?

Another problem is "human rights" have spun out of control. Every woman and gay person thinks they deserve everything, just cause they know cops can't do shit. Sit in the street protesting and bitching until they get their way, and the government needs to waste tax dollars, cause we follow stupid laws to protect idiots like this.

Control and harsh punishment is the only way. There's gonna be un happy people either way, I rather live in a world where I'm being watched 24/7 by the government then stay at home wondering if the blacks are raping and killing my family.

we'll have a better economy if we had a communism banking system. :thumbcat:

Lol you're clearly retarded robby, stop trying to form opinions on any matter of intellect.

[Ghost Buster]

The Germans were nowhere fucking near getting a nuke. That's one of the more annoying myths about WWII.


I guess you never read the play Copenhagen eh?

[Ed Lister]

I rather live in a world where I'm being watched 24/7 by the government then stay at home wondering if the blacks are raping and killing my family.
:

Goddamn, you're a a fucking faggot.

[da teacha]

The USSR/Russia doesn't exist if Nazi Germany has conquered all upto the Volga.

Post-Volga land consists of the Russian cities of Samara, Ekat, Novosib, Irkutsk and Vladi - which are linked via Trans-Siberian and 'some' badly kept roads. Also, there are the other Soviet states.

Without any strong central command and leader, Asian Russia falls apart. Even today there aren't even roads connecting some of the cities out there. Combined with a wore-torn economy, practically no army left, and the war killing millions of civs, I predict revolutions in every part of what remains of Russia.

Secondly, the other Soviets aren't going to be hanging around for too long when the motherstate disintegrates. The -stans and the caucus region are going to scramble for independance.


This possibly leads to the next Cold War being a scramble for Central Eurasia between the US and Europe. And can we discount China at this point, being so close to the action?

Pacific Russia, assuming Japan's demise, is easily under US influence, possibly giving way to a very successful trading centre at Vladivostok, whose wealth and prosperity may spread down the railroad.

A weakened, war-torn Nazi Europe struggles to hold together the nation, and has to compete with a prosperous America. They'll undoubtedly be interested in conquering Asian Russia for resources.

Islam in Caucasian Russia and Tatarstan possibly takes a turn for the worse and tries to spread throughout a weak Russia. Being on the Eastern frontier of Nazi Europe, may lead to a 2nd persecution.

China may be up for land grabs on some Russian cities straddling the border, and may compete for influence in the Eurasian cities. Does India attempt such aswell?


But all in all, who fucking knows?

[whocares]

op has officially declared retardation

[Goddess66]

Move to a communist country.

[Mirana]

op has officially declared retardation

:double fuck:

at least other people debated with me, you just walk in here throwing insults with no backing whatsoever. That itself is more retarded cause you have nothing to say LOL

[PheonyxXx]

In all honesty, the only reason the germans never won the war is because of Japan bombing pearl harbor. Which made the US enter the war, then the germans had to split their troops up to not only take on the US, but Russia as well. It also doesn't help that Hitler kinda moved too fast. Taking over Poland, ok ok, thats fine, but don't rush things. Take it slow and it would've worked out.

[whocares]

:double fuck:

at least other people debated with me, you just walk in here throwing insults with no backing whatsoever. That itself is more retarded cause you have nothing to say LOL

i can already tell you're a dumbass based how you presented yourself, and you don't know anymore than what you can google and you are over-simplifying history.

are you seriously gonna compare niggers in the hood to justify hitler's history? i mean, look at your own logic. :facepalm:

[The Pat-Man]

What about the Japs, they came a lot closer to victory than the nazis.

[Ghost Buster]

What about the Japs, they came a lot closer to victory than the nazis.

No they didn't.

[da teacha]

In all honesty, the only reason the germans never won the war is because of Japan bombing pearl harbor. Which made the US enter the war, then the germans had to split their troops up to not only take on the US, but Russia as well. It also doesn't help that Hitler kinda moved too fast. Taking over Poland, ok ok, thats fine, but don't rush things. Take it slow and it would've worked out.

I've always held the belief that a combined Russia and UK was enough to keep the Nazis at bay due to the following:

1) The Allies (sans USA) wins the North African campaign and launches an assault on Italy.

2) Germany loses the Battle of Britain and cannot invade the UK. Additionally, the Allies now have air superiority.

3) Germany cannot sustain a long, gruelling war against Russia unless they possibly commit everything they have.

4) Through commiting too much in Russia, the West is free to launch an assault. Germany simply cannot sustain fighting on 2 fronts.

Though my exact knowledge on financial and material contributions from the US to Russia/Europe is unknown, maybe it creates the turning point and allows the Russkies and Commonwealth to hold out. Maybe not.


Nonetheless, the US' late involvement ensures their status as the next global superpower, and wins them the forthcoming Cold War. Non entrance practically hands Eurasia to Russia as they are free to march through Germany and into France and Italy.


I wish the UK never got involved, or possibly allied with Germany to maintain her Empire and dominance of the world. We sacrified so much for what now appears so little.

[blaze]

the united states had its chance for world domination when it was the only superpower with readied nuclear bombs back in '45

[Mirana]

i can already tell you're a dumbass based how you presented yourself, and you don't know anymore than what you can google and you are over-simplifying history.

are you seriously gonna compare niggers in the hood to justify hitler's history? i mean, look at your own logic. :facepalm:

Well you haven't said anything to argue with my logic, besides throwing insults which anyone can do. :lolcat:

[The Pat-Man]

I've always held the belief that a combined Russia and UK was enough to keep the Nazis at bay due to the following:

1) The Allies (sans USA) wins the North African campaign and launches an assault on Italy.

2) Germany loses the Battle of Britain and cannot invade the UK. Additionally, the Allies now have air superiority.

3) Germany cannot sustain a long, gruelling war against Russia unless they possibly commit everything they have.

4) Through commiting too much in Russia, the West is free to launch an assault. Germany simply cannot sustain fighting on 2 fronts.

Though my exact knowledge on financial and material contributions from the US to Russia/Europe is unknown, maybe it creates the turning point and allows the Russkies and Commonwealth to hold out. Maybe not.


Nonetheless, the US' late involvement ensures their status as the next global superpower, and wins them the forthcoming Cold War. Non entrance practically hands Eurasia to Russia as they are free to march through Germany and into France and Italy.


I wish the UK never got involved, or possibly allied with Germany to maintain her Empire and dominance of the world. We sacrified so much for what now appears so little.

America was in both North Africa and Italy.

[da teacha]

America was in both North Africa and Italy.

So were New Zealanders and Poles...

[The Pat-Man]

yea but thats not the point i was making, america was in every large offensive on the western front.

[neg.z]

We'd all be driving BMWs and VWs. No shitty American cars.

[is all mememememe with me]

I wish the UK never got involved, or possibly allied with Germany to maintain her Empire and dominance of the world. We sacrified so much for what now appears so little.

fuck off, they're germans, you cunt. never gonna happen.

you talked a lot of sense till you said that.

So were New Zealanders and Poles...

so was britain. we probly did the bigger share of the fighting out there. so did the indians.

[The Pat-Man]

No doubt north africa was britains shining moment of the war.

[is all mememememe with me]

No doubt north africa was britains shining moment of the war.

no i'd have to say battle of britain myself.

[PheonyxXx]

France and Britain declared war on Germany following the invasion of Poland. Contrary to what most think, the Nazis didn't have some plan of going to war against the world and taking it over. I really doubt they would have invaded Russia if it wasn't obvious they were ready to attack.

yea but heres the thing, France gave up quite quickly. Britain was the main concern. And the germans pretty much had them cornered until the Americans joined the fight

[is all mememememe with me]

hitler actually admired britain. the SS was based on the knights templar and no he didn't want to go to war with us. his plans included us allying with him. but lets face it, that was only ever going to be a means to an end. keeping us on hold till he conquered the rest and was in a better position to take us on. but his idea of a pure aryan race was never gonna involve sticking with his allies to the end. i mean where do you think japan would have fitted into all that? he would have switched on them as soon as he had no use for them anymore. and he would have done the same to anyone else who allied with him, america included.

[is all mememememe with me]

yea but heres the thing, France gave up quite quickly. Britain was the main concern. And the germans pretty much had them cornered until the Americans joined the fight

dunkirk was the only time they had us cornered. and they fucked that up. they could have wiped out our forces there, but they held back.

[Rolf]

fuck off, they're germans, you cunt. never gonna happen.

Britain shares more in common with Germany than with say, Russia, especially communist Russia, states Rolf.

No doubt north africa was britains shining moment of the war.

Even if one argues the significant advantage in defending an island, Britain's shining moment of WWII was certainly the Battle of Britain...

no i'd have to say battle of britain myself.

... even if it was Poland who won it for them, notes Rolf.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Polandball.PNG

hitler actually admired britain. the SS was based on the knights templar

What does the Knights Templar have to do with Britain? asks Rolf. It was the Teutonic Knights that Himmler is often said to have based the SS on, adds Rolf.

[Morb]

If Hitler had won the war, the world would deserve what it would have gotten (which is an even sicker nightmare than what we've managed to build so far).

If that's all the human race is good for, then the human race deserves to die.

I think the world deserves better than Hitler, and I don't think it's any coincidence that it got better. Which isn't necessarily saying much, but I try to be an optimist.:D

Hard to be an optimist, though, when it's the year 2012 and some people around the world are still talking about Hitler as if he were anything but an insane, incompetent, childish, impressively deranged, drug-addled, mentally damaged, stupid evil asshole.

I guess I like the challenge.

[is all mememememe with me]

Britain shares more in common with Germany than with say, Russia, especially communist Russia, states Rolf.



Even if one argues the significant advantage in defending an island, Britain's shining moment of WWII was certainly the Battle of Britain...



... even if it was Poland who won it for them, notes Rolf.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Polandball.PNG



What does the Knights Templar have to do with Britain? asks Rolf. It was the Teutonic Knights that Himmler is often said to have based the SS on, adds Rolf.

i didn't think it'd take you long, lol.

knights templar, round table, all that bollocks. whatever. the SS based a lot of their ceromonies around them.

[Rolf]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/186/005/1318640153003.png

knights templar, round table, all that bollocks. whatever. the SS based a lot of their ceromonies around them.

Teutonic Knights, notes Rolf. Those militaristic guys with the cool uniforms that invaded, dominated, subjugated and ethnically cleansed large regions of central and eastern Europe, agrees Rolf.

[Morb]

the united states had its chance for world domination when it was the only superpower with readied nuclear bombs back in '45

Consider what might have happened if it were any other country.

England is the only other country I'd be comfortable with having the bomb at that point.

[Rolf]

Poland with nukes would be interesting, adds Rolf. England and the United States are two of the most warlike nations on the planet, give the nukes to Germany, suggests Rolf.

[The Pat-Man]

I think Japan should get the bomb -_-

[JC Denton]

Teutonic Knights, notes Rolf. Those militaristic guys with the cool uniforms that invaded, dominated, subjugated and ethnically cleansed large regions of central and eastern Europe, agrees Rolf.

Oh yea, they did alright. By massacring the helpless innocent inhabitants of Danzig, and destroying a good portion of the town before germanizing it.

But those crazy crusaders got owned in practically all of the Polish-Teutonic wars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald

[Cory]

The USSR/Russia doesn't exist if Nazi Germany has conquered all upto the Volga.

Post-Volga land consists of the Russian cities of Samara, Ekat, Novosib, Irkutsk and Vladi - which are linked via Trans-Siberian and 'some' badly kept roads. Also, there are the other Soviet states.

Without any strong central command and leader, Asian Russia falls apart. Even today there aren't even roads connecting some of the cities out there. Combined with a wore-torn economy, practically no army left, and the war killing millions of civs, I predict revolutions in every part of what remains of Russia.

Secondly, the other Soviets aren't going to be hanging around for too long when the motherstate disintegrates. The -stans and the caucus region are going to scramble for independance.

This is interesting, but I think that with proper (read: harsh) leadership the Soviets rump state can survive. Maybe Beria takes over after Stalin is discredited after the failure against the Germans?

That being said you are right in saying that the minor ethnicity will vie for independence and the Germans will be happy to support them. However I think the Soviets will be happy to starve/kill anyone who seriously resists them in any way. Also perhaps a "hang together or die separately" mentality will take hold. But yeah the rump Soviets will be largely dependent of American economic aid to keep them alive (which they will be happy to provide, for obvious reasons).

This possibly leads to the next Cold War being a scramble for Central Eurasia between the US and Europe. And can we discount China at this point, being so close to the action?

A weakened, war-torn Nazi Europe struggles to hold together the nation, and has to compete with a prosperous America. They'll undoubtedly be interested in conquering Asian Russia for resources.

This is intrusting. But that begs the question: does Germany have the logistics capability of projecting her power that far? I think mostly the Germans would provide weapons and supplies to those anti-Soviet rebels.

Islam in Caucasian Russia and Tatarstan possibly takes a turn for the worse and tries to spread throughout a weak Russia. Being on the Eastern frontier of Nazi Europe, may lead to a 2nd persecution.

China may be up for land grabs on some Russian cities straddling the border, and may compete for influence in the Eurasian cities. Does India attempt such aswell?

I don't know. the Germans were more then willing to recruit Muslims to do some of their dirty work for them (see: Yugoslavia). They even had and entire Waffen SS division for them (Handschar).

As for India and China, I don't think either of those nations will be in position to project any kind of international power. China will be recovering from warlordism and civil war, and assuming the Nationalists win, cleaning up a good deal of institutional corruption. And India just doesn't have the capability to begin with at this point.

[Cory]

It also doesn't help that Hitler kinda moved too fast. Taking over Poland, ok ok, thats fine, but don't rush things. Take it slow and it would've worked out.

Well the thing is the longer the war goes on the stronger the Allies get. The German high staff in 1941 speculated (correctly, IMO) that they had until the end of 1942 to defeat Russia or the Soviets military reforms will be in place and their economy will be unstoppable. Also by then the Americans will have found some excuse to enter the way.

[Rolf]

Oh yea, they did alright. By massacring the helpless innocent inhabitants of Danzig, and destroying a good portion of the town before germanizing it.

But those crazy crusaders got owned in practically all of the Polish-Teutonic wars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald

They got owned far earlier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Peipus), by a saint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Nevskiy), nonetheless, notes Rolf.

Well the thing is the longer the war goes on the stronger the Allies get. The German high staff in 1941 speculated (correctly, IMO) that they had until the end of 1942 to defeat Russia or the Soviets military reforms will be in place and their economy will be unstoppable.

That, German inability to keep their high pace was one of the reasons they eventually failed, states Rolf.

[The Pat-Man]

Nevsky was a badass, dude had life cheat codes.

[Cory]

I've always held the belief that a combined Russia and UK was enough to keep the Nazis at bay due to the following:

1) The Allies (sans USA) wins the North African campaign and launches an assault on Italy.

Keep in mind that the Allies are not predestined to win in North Africa. The Germans only sent a force to stop the British from rolling over the Italians and taking Tripoli. Rommel just got ahead of himself and wanted to march on the Suez. Additional German troop there could make all the difference.

2) Germany loses the Battle of Britain and cannot invade the UK. Additionally, the Allies now have air superiority.

I would charge that Germany doesn't need to invade Britain itself to win the war, and the Battle of Britain should've just been skipped altogether. If the Axis can defeat the British armies in Egypt and the Middle East they can reduce Britain to an isolated fortress that's ultimately irrelevant to the outcome of the war.

3) Germany cannot sustain a long, gruelling war against Russia unless they possibly commit everything they have.

Well the idea is to defeat the Soviet armies in the field in the 1941 campaign season. The Germans can take it into 1942 if need be (as we well know). If Germany can defeat Russia before the Americans get their economy in gear and forces in position they can win the war.

Nonetheless, the US' late involvement ensures their status as the next global superpower, and wins them the forthcoming Cold War. Non entrance practically hands Eurasia to Russia as they are free to march through Germany and into France and Italy.

Well keep in mind that the Soviets were already scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of manpower in our 1945 so in this scenario without a second front that effect will be even worse. Also the British had contingency plans (Operation Sledgehammer) to invade Europe in the case of a sudden Soviet or German collapse.

Good post, hope to hear more.

[ZappaFan]

Maybe its just the fact that I've watched a bunch of documentaries, but its still kinna interesting...

What really went down when the holocaust happened? Stop blaming Hitler for Holocaust-Not a single Jew died in a gas chamber - YouTube

[Cory]

Maybe its just the fact that I've watched a bunch of documentaries, but its still kinna interesting...

What really went down when the holocaust happened? Stop blaming Hitler for Holocaust-Not a single Jew died in a gas chamber - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16bNTpoNyY0&feature=related)

No. Leave now. This conversation is actually getting good. Don't ruin it.

[is all mememememe with me]

That, German inability to keep their high pace was one of the reasons they eventually failed, states Rolf.

there were many reasons yes. losing the russian oil fields was another as they were very dependent on them. thinking their communications were secure and not realizing for years they had been compromised was yet another. german arrogance and trying to take on too much too quickly was yet another still, but then the germans just didn't have time on their side anyway, especially considering what they were doing. it was always only going to be a matter of time before what was going on in the concentration camps got out, and the western world was no way going to sit by and do nothing once it did. either way it was a war they just were not going to win.

[Rolf]

it was always only going to be a matter of time before what was going on in the concentration camps got out, and the western world was no way going to sit by and do nothing once it did.

Rolf disagrees entirely with this, disagrees Rolf. The USA did not intervene in WWII because of Holocaust, and other important western nations were already involved in the conflict, states Rolf. The west has watched genocides happen in the past without military intervention and it will again in future, this is because realpolitik is more important than ethics, proclaims Rolf.

No. Leave now. This conversation is actually getting good. Don't ruin it.

But Jews = evil, informs Rolf sarcastically.

[Ghost Buster]

it was always only going to be a matter of time before what was going on in the concentration camps got out, and the western world was no way going to sit by and do nothing once it did.

Lol are you for real nigga? No one gave a shit about the holocaust camps. And no one goes to war for jews being genocided, not even jews.

Russia’s biggest fear in WW2 was that America was going to ally with nazi germany. I'd really like to see how that would have turned out. Well, I know how it would have turned out in the short term, nazis would come out of ww2 controlling europe and some of Asia. After that, I'm not sure what would happen. I imagine either a cold war or real war with america, although nuclear technology would determine the practically of such a move.

[is all mememememe with me]

Rolf disagrees entirely with this, disagrees Rolf. The USA did not intervene in WWII because of Holocaust, and other important western nations were already involved in the conflict, states Rolf. The west has watched genocides happen in the past without military intervention and it will again in future, this is because realpolitik is more important than ethics, proclaims Rolf.



But Jews = evil, informs Rolf sarcastically.

i think you're under estimating how much jewish influence there is in the american govt and elite. and saying other western powers were already involved is beside the fact when we are talking about hypothetical scenario where they didn't get involved when or for why they did.

but the main reason britain declared war was simply because we were not going to trust a crazed despot on a world conquering spree sitting on our doorstep. hitler was mad to think we were going to trust him after the way he had been behaving. poland was just the excuse we needed, attack being the best form of defense and all that.

[Rolf]

i think you're under estimating how much jewish influence there is in the american govt and elite.

Rolf believes that "meme with me me me with all is all me with Rolf" is underestimating the strength of US isolationism throughout the 1930's, nothing less than a direct attack on the US was going to send them guns blazing into Europe, states Rolf.

but the main reason britain declared war was simply because we were not going to trust a crazed despot on a world conquering spree sitting on our doorstep.

That and fear of another Great War and Great Britain's inability to fight said Great War alone, notes Rolf.

poland was just the excuse we needed, attack being the best form of defense and all that.

But "you" did not attack Germany, "you" and France declared war then sat back and watched in dread and fear of the Teutonic iron-clad war machine as it ravaged and decimated the nation "you" were supposed to allies with, states Rolf. Colonel-General Jodl even said that Germany only survived 1939 because the 100+ Franco-British divisions in Western Europe did nothing against the 20 German divisions they were supposedly at war against, proclaims Rolf.

[is all mememememe with me]

Rolf believes that "meme with me me me with all is all me with Rolf" is underestimating the strength of US isolationism throughout the 1930's, nothing less than a direct attack on the US was going to send them guns blazing into Europe, states Rolf.


by pearl harbor the US were fully aware they were going to war. pearl harbor just hastened their entry is all. your literally talking weeks, months at most.

[is all mememememe with me]

That and fear of another Great War and Great Britain's inability to fight said Great War alone, notes Rolf.

But "you" did not attack Germany, "you" and France declared war then sat back and watched in dread and fear of the Teutonic iron-clad war machine as it ravaged and decimated the nation "you" were supposed to allies with, states Rolf. Colonel-General Jodl even said that Germany only survived 1939 because the 100+ Franco-British divisions in Western Europe did nothing against the 20 German divisions they were supposedly at war against, proclaims Rolf.

you see there was a secret to our success over all them years rolf. we didn't need to go head on straight away like a fucking bulldozer. it wasn't in britains interests to do so. we play the smart game, make full use of our strengths, take advantage of the fact we are an island, we had the biggest and best navy in the world. use of intelligence and playing the other players like pawns. one way or another we was always going to win. time was on our side and we knew it. it was all a case of setting the stage for that final act.

[Rolf]

For once what said meme with me has said has been correct (and a decent strategy it was), however, this is not what said meme with me previously stated, notes Rolf. The previous statement was "we neded dem hunz ta atak polland so we hav excus to kik him hunz in da hed", Britannia never did this, explains Rolf. Like most empires in their miserable twilight days, Britannia did not have the ability to defeat the enemy and had to rely on defending what was left, adds Rolf.

[Ghost Buster]

by pearl harbor the US were fully aware they were going to war. pearl harbor just hastened their entry is all. your literally talking weeks, months at most.

Pearl harbor was actually fairly devastating for the american pacific navy. They fucked up big time, I don't get how anything like that can happen. If I was in command of any military institution, scouting the immediate area would be a top priority. No fucking fleet would get within striking distance undetected, that's fucking ridiculous. Whoever was in command of the fleet at pearl harbor should commit fucking seppuku.

[Cory]

it was always only going to be a matter of time before what was going on in the concentration camps got out, and the western world was no way going to sit by and do nothing once it did.

Which explains perfectly why the Allies attacked the Soviet Union. Somebody had to stop the Gulag! :rolleyes:

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that humanitarianism does not really weigh in significantly in major powers Geo-political decision making. It's all about self-interest.

by pearl harbor the US were fully aware they were going to war. pearl harbor just hastened their entry is all. your literally talking weeks, months at most.

Agreed. The USA was determined to get involved in the war and sans Pearl Harbor some kind of incident would have been cooked up in the Atlantic to justify American entry.

As a side not, it's important to keep in mind that nobody in the West (or the USSR, for that matter) really expected France to fall, let alone as rapidly as they did. The idea for the UK/France going into WWII was to defend France as per 1914-15 then build up for a major counter offensive in 1941. They were planning for a long war of attrition in which the overall superior economy of France and Britain would prevail. Power of the Purse Strings and such.

However, the Fall of France completely changed the impetus of the war. Germany was on the cusp of total victory and had they played their cards right there would be nothing Britain (alone) could do about it.

[is all mememememe with me]

For once what said meme with me has said has been correct (and a decent strategy it was), however, this is not what said meme with me previously stated, notes Rolf. The previous statement was "we neded dem hunz ta atak polland so we hav excus to kik him hunz in da hed", Britannia never did this, explains Rolf. Like most empires in their miserable twilight days, Britannia did not have the ability to defeat the enemy and had to rely on defending what was left, adds Rolf.

it wasn't as straight forward as that rolf, you've completely taken me out of context, altho i see why you made that mistake. trying to stay out of the war for longer would have risked having to go up against a possibly stronger germany, who may have by that time defeated russia and been looking to move all its forces westward. hard to tell at the early stage. we had to get in when we did, that way we could get on to starting the game. getting the ball rolling rather than trying to avoid war which was inevitably going to involve us sooner or later. dunkirk avoided many french forces from being destroyed or captured which was very useful at the time, even if they were french they were still battle hardy. supplying russia and defeating the italian navy in the med was hardly doing nothing. it tied down german forces in the east while we trained men and kept the suez canal open. as well as hindering axis supplies to north africa. helping build resistance in france and norway were also key factors that were very useful throughout the war. plus all the time we were gathering information, lots of information, as well as developing the bomb and convincing the US it could be done.

E: forgot to mention the battle of the atlantic and blockade of germany by the royal navy.

[is all mememememe with me]

America got nukes because they stole the German scientists that worked on the project, after the war was over. The Soviets did this too. I highly doubt America would invent nukes before Germany if it weren't for this.

what the fuck are you talking about. read up tube alloys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_alloys

[Rolf]

trying to stay out of the war for longer would have risked having to go up against a possibly stronger germany, who may have by that time defeated russia and been looking to move all its forces westward.

Rolf was referencing the so-called Phoney War, the five month period after declaring war where nothing was done to weaken or undermine Germany, states Rolf. In the opinion of Rolf had the British and French been more aware and ready for conflict, they could have severely weakened Germany far earlier than they did, adds Rolf. It could have been worse though, admits Rolf, the indecisive and conservative leadership was preferable to Churchill's plan called Catherine, proclaims Rolf.

we had to get in when we did, that way we could get on to starting the game. getting the ball rolling rather than trying to avoid war which was inevitably going to involve us sooner or later.

Rolf agrees, the only shame is that the Franco-British alliance was not ready for conflict far sooner and did not already have a militarily competent leadership at the outbreak of the war, adds Rolf.

dunkirk avoided many french forces from being destroyed or captured which was very useful at the time, even if they were french they were still battle hardy.

Slightly off topic, but Rolf does not truly understand Francophobia, does Rolf. They have a respectable military history, from Vercingetorix to Charles Martel to William the Conqueror and onto Napoleon Bonaparte, proclaims Rolf. Not to mention the French Resistance, adds Rolf.

supplying russia and defeating the italian navy in the med was hardly doing nothing.

Meme is looking too far forward into the war for Rolf was speaking of the very early period in the war, known as the Phoney War, notes Rolf. Rolf will happily admit that the Royal Navies dominance of the Atlantic and Mediterranean was decisive in World War II, most important would be the western allies supplies to the Soviet Union, which allowed the Red Army to eventually decimate the Wehrmacht despite the extreme loss of human life, states Rolf.

America got nukes because they stole the German scientists that worked on the project, after the war was over. The Soviets did this too. I highly doubt America would invent nukes before Germany if it weren't for this.

Nazi Germany having technology and science far superior to that of the Allies is a myth that continues to breed, proclaims Rolf. The allies were in many ways more advanced than the Axis, who were in some ways more advanced than the Allies, states Rolf. The truth is that the Germans were unable to produce a nuclear weapon anywhere near as quickly as the western allies were, proclaims Rolf.

[is all mememememe with me]

Slightly off topic, but Rolf does not truly understand Francophobia

yeah it's an england thing


Meme is looking too far forward into the war for Rolf was speaking of the very early period in the war, known as the Phoney War, notes Rolf. Rolf will happily admit that the Royal Navies dominance of the Atlantic and Mediterranean was decisive in World War II, most important would be the western allies supplies to the Soviet Union, which allowed the Red Army to eventually decimate the Wehrmacht despite the extreme loss of human life, states Rolf.


that was a funny old business that german russian thing wasn't it? i mean you got hitler writing in meine kampf about how the germans have to crush, enslave and pretty much wipe out the russian peoples. then before the war they are colluding together over invading poland and talking about an alliance. despite the fact that hitlers intentions for russia were pretty clear. then you got russia supplying germany, while we're declaring war with them over their invasion of poland. then they switch on each other and russia are needing us to supply them. while we are declaring war on germany for invading poland, we are allying with russia when they were also invading the said same country. what a complicated affair that must have been, lol.

kinda serves them right that 90% of the allied casualties were russians on the eastern front.

[Rolf]

yeah it's an england thing

Ironic, considering the origins of much of England's genetics, language and culture, notes Rolf. Jelly of the superior cuisine, believes Rolf.

that was a funny old business that german russian thing wasn't it? i mean you got hitler writing in meine kampf about how the germans have to crush, enslave and pretty much wipe out the russian peoples. then before the war they are colluding together over invading poland and talking about an alliance. despite the fact that hitlers intentions for russia were pretty clear. then you got russia supplying germany, while we're declaring war with them over their invasion of poland. then they switch on each other and russia are needing us to supply them. while we are declaring war on germany for invading poland, we are allying with russia when they were also invading the said same country. what a complicated affair that must have been, lol.

Hatred of Poland is a German and Russian thing, adds Rolf. But, alas, Rolf agrees, along with all his other flaws (including his own self-hate regarding his ethnic identity) Stalin was a horrible leader with no knowledge of strategy, no wisdom and no foresight, proclaims Rolf. Even after warnings from the few decent generals he hadn't executed, Stalin still believed that Germany would not attack USSR until after he had conquered Britain, Stalin also refused to respond after Germany attacked, believing instead that the actions were those of a rogue German commander, states Rolf.

kinda serves them right that 90% of the allied casualties were russians on the eastern front.

Millions of people who died due to being led by psychopathic megalomaniacal genocidal idiots did not deserve it, regardless of the side they fought for during the War, proclaims Rolf.

'Tis almost as absurd as stating that all Britons deserved to be lynched due to their governments betrayal of their Polish allies at the end of the War, or that Anglo-Americans deserve ethnic cleansing due to the destruction of the native population and for slavery, adds Rolf.

[water bottle]

Can we PLEASE ALL AGREE TO STOP TALKING ABOUT HITLER. Seriously. There's nothing new or exciting to talk about. Every aspect has been covered to death.

[is all mememememe with me]

Ironic, considering the origins of much of England's genetics, language and culture, notes Rolf. Jelly of the superior cuisine, believes Rolf.

lol no, i'm not jealous of people who munch on frogs legs and snails and have stinky breath.

Hatred of Poland is a German and Russian thing, adds Rolf. But, alas, Rolf agrees, along with all his other flaws (including his own self-hate regarding his ethnic identity) Stalin was a horrible leader with no knowledge of strategy, no wisdom and no foresight, proclaims Rolf. Even after warnings from the few decent generals he hadn't executed, Stalin still believed that Germany would not attack USSR until after he had conquered Britain, Stalin also refused to respond after Germany attacked, believing instead that the actions were those of a rogue German commander, states Rolf.



Millions of people who died due to being led by psychopathic megalomaniacal genocidal idiots did not deserve it, regardless of the side they fought for during the War, proclaims Rolf.

'Tis almost as absurd as stating that all Britons deserved to be lynched due to their governments betrayal of their Polish allies at the end of the War, or that Anglo-Americans deserve ethnic cleansing due to the destruction of the native population and for slavery, adds Rolf.

i meant that comment toward the russian machine as a collective rather than on any personal level. however any leader is only leader with the support of his people. so in that respect, by allowing him to represent the people of russia, the russian people are somewhat responsible for the leaders actions. in the same way as someone giving power of attorney is responsible for what said attorney does with that persons affairs after the fact.

[water bottle]

I heard Hitler liked getting his niece to pee on him. What a weirdo.

[Rolf]

Can we PLEASE ALL AGREE TO STOP TALKING ABOUT HITLER. Seriously. There's nothing new or exciting to talk about. Every aspect has been covered to death.

Rolf agrees and regrets dragging Rolfself into yet another discussion on a period of history talked about far too much, agrees Rolf regretfully.

by allowing him to represent the people of russia, the russian people are somewhat responsible for the leaders actions. in the same way as someone giving power of attorney is responsible for what said attorney does with that persons affairs after the fact.

:picard:

Coming from one whose ancestors have committed more crimes than any other, Rolf finds this statement to be extremely stupid.

I heard Hitler liked getting his niece to pee on him. What a weirdo.

Hitler liked rap music, adds Rolf.

[JC Denton]

They got owned far earlier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Peipus), by a saint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Nevskiy), nonetheless, notes Rolf.



That, German inability to keep their high pace was one of the reasons they eventually failed, states Rolf.

What I don't understand is why the Germans were still mad about centuries old defeats, and were so intent on getting their revenge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg_(1914)), against the Slavs. The second and third reich was much the same in their agenda as they were since the middle ages.

[is all mememememe with me]

I heard Hitler liked getting his niece to pee on him. What a weirdo.

i dunno, sounds kinda fun.

then again, looking at his niece, maybe not

[JC Denton]

I heard Hitler liked getting his niece to pee on him. What a weirdo.

This fetish seems to be common among fascists. Ever see Salo 120 days of sodom?

[Cory]

that was a funny old business that german russian thing wasn't it? i mean you got hitler writing in meine kampf about how the germans have to crush, enslave and pretty much wipe out the russian peoples. then before the war they are colluding together over invading poland and talking about an alliance. despite the fact that hitlers intentions for russia were pretty clear. then you got russia supplying germany, while we're declaring war with them over their invasion of poland. then they switch on each other and russia are needing us to supply them. while we are declaring war on germany for invading poland, we are allying with russia when they were also invading the said same country. what a complicated affair that must have been, lol.

Well the thing is Stalin was playing a double game. The Soviets were hoping that Germany and the UK/France would fight a long war similar to WWI in the West while the Soviets completed their military reforms and got their economy up to par. Then in 1942 or 1943 the Soviet would invade a fractured and weakened Europe, primarily at the expense of the Germans.

[is all mememememe with me]

Well the thing is Stalin was playing a double game. The Soviets were hoping that Germany and the UK/France would fight a long war similar to WWI in the West while the Soviets completed their military reforms and got their economy up to par. Then in 1942 or 1943 the Soviet would invade a fractured and weakened Europe, primarily at the expense of the Germans.

they did yes. can't help thinking if they hadn't been so fucking greedy, and not tried playing clever games with players that were much smarter than themselves, then not only would they have saved huge cost to themselves, but saved a lot of aggro all round.

[Rolf]

Lol, wut, lolwut's Rolf.

[Cory]

they did yes. can't help thinking if they hadn't been so fucking greedy, and not tried playing clever games with players that were much smarter than themselves, then not only would they have saved huge cost to themselves, but saved a lot of aggro all round.

Well to be fair the plan was pretty good. Nobody foresaw the rapid fall of France that completely changed the game. Even the German high command was against invading Western Europe until Von Mainstien came up with Operation Sicklecut. The Anglo-French armies outnumbered the Germans, and had more (better) tanks. The Germans were just intellectually leagues and bounds ahead of the Anglo-French in terms of military doctrine.

[AMFYOYO]

America got nukes because they stole the German scientists that worked on the project, after the war was over. The Soviets did this too. I highly doubt America would invent nukes before Germany if it weren't for this.

America detonated the worlds first successful atomic bomb on July 16, 1945 3 months after Germany's defeat. In 1942 Enrico Fermi, a physicist, successfully controlled a nuclear reaction in his reactor called CP-1. CP-1 was located at the University of Chicago. The idea of forming a research team to create a nuclear weapon was endorsed in a letter than Einstein sent to Franklin Roosevelt. So you tell me how they stole German scientists and invented the A bomb in just 4 months.