I denied God yesterday

[ArmsMerchant]

Denying God is not as melodramatic as the Book of Job might have you believe. Nor need it be as angsty as shaking one's fist at the sky and screaming "There is no God!"

God is not some invisible friend in the sky, nor a super Santa Claus who keeps a list of who's naughty and who's nice--God is infinite, not confined to a mythical heaven, but is in all of us, and everything. Eknath Easwaran said this of God: ". . . .the divine spark within your own heart; not some imposing figure seated on a throne in the far reaches of the heavens, but the very core of your own self.""

God is love, and God is the most loving and grateful and charitable and noble and honest part of us. We deny God when we fall short of our greatest and grandest conception of ourselves and what we can be.

We deny God when we are impatient with children or the elderly.

We deny God when we observe beauty in nature and scurry past, failing to take a moment to appreciate it.

We deny God when we have a kind or loving impulse and fail to act on it.

Recently I was at the local box store, and used the men's room. As I left, I noticed an employee cleaning out the women's room. I felt like thanking him, telling him I appreciated his efforts, that his work meant a lot to me, since I don't have running water in my cabin. It might have brightened his day, and that small act of kindness might have spread and grown--small acts have a way of doing that.

But I didn't. I was too busy, and thought he might resent my intrusion or think I as being patronizing or sarcastic. Truth is, I was fearful. And fear always drives out love.

And now I am remorseful.

PS--

Well, I did it.

A week or so later, I was in the store, the same guy was in one of the johns, down on his knees scrubbing the floor behind a toilet. I said "Excuse me," and he turned around with this sort of wary look on his face.

"I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your work. My cabin doesn't have running water and it is really great to be able to use a nice clean restroom now and then."

He got this big smile on his face, and said "Thank you very much."

It may have made his day--I know it made mine.

[Paragon]

As you should be.

...That janitor is probably dead now (shot himself).

[skinny love]

as long as you are learning from this experience, you're not denying god.

[Butcher]

crazy shit, holmes.

[bornkiller]

Truth is, I was fearful. And fear always drives out love.

And now I am ashamed.
Goddammit Greyfox!
If I didn't think you were :cool: I could have soooo much fun with this thread.
therefore I drop my head and move along. :(

[Built To Last]

as long as you are learning from this experience, you're not denying god.

Well said. If I remeber correctly, it was Greyfox himself, who gave me the advice, "forgive yourself for being you."

I've come to the point in my faith where I'll get a nagging feeling that I should do something, (go somewhere or say something), and I'll stop and seriously consider it. Then of course fear takes ahold and convinces me to keep on walking.

[Hyper-dimension]

I don't know if you're saying these things are inherently God, or if God is inherently these things. I'm not a Christian myself, but I agree with your sentiments, nonetheless. Please elaborate.

[Jai614]

I deny God everytime I use internets.

[THIS IS IMPORTANT GODDAMNIT]

Being impowered by something that can never be proved is always going to have it's set backs. Just be happy that you're far more spiritually developed than you could potentially be :thumbsup:

[pengd0t]

Judging by the way your thoughts/words usually seem to play out, this seems more like an emotional response than a thoughtful reflection. Or maybe the ends of an emotional response, and the beginnings of reflection...

You did one thing while you were thinking that something else was a possibility as well... the same as every other decision throughout the day. And like everything else, it only becomes a problem when you start hesitating and wishing to go back and change your past now that you've had time to think about the decisions a bit longer.

I can't fly without mechanical aids. And that's just that. But if I dwell on that and it becomes an uncomfortable preoccupation for me, then I've just attached myself to a nonsensical desire to change something unchangeable, a constant desire for something unattainable, and I don't see much that can come out of that but suffering.

I do things that, in retrospect, I think I might have rather done another way... but it's no more than a mild curiosity, the same as thoughts like "wouldn't it be interesting if I were 20 feet tall..." If anything I just end up thinking about the sorts of thought processes and actions that make up such daily interactions and in the end, just shrug my shoulders and reaffirm my beliefs that being human is an interesting thing to be.

[Snoopy]

Whatever you say, Obi-Wan.

[postdiluvium]

Happens to me quite a bit. I sometime have after thoughts about things I didn't do or things I thought I should have done. But whatever... thats what makes like unpredictable and precious. Those "what ifs".

[donvodka]

Well you have to realise that everyone is an asshole.. unless you're a fucking Saint. And it's human nature to do asshole things that you'll regret later. It's when you have enough courage to actually do more than say.

[pengd0t]

...a fucking Saint...

http://tinyurl.com/demtc9

[M. Samuel Chevalier]

Yesterday I had a lot of thoughts while out on a walk, and I felt really in touch with how and where I stood in the world. I even thought, "Maybe this is how Greyfox thinks from time to time". It's a shame I had to be high to get there, though. It really put a downer on something beautiful...

[DJ Meaty Cheeks]

Gotta love the self-pwnage.

[ArmsMerchant]

Whatever you say, Obi-Wan.

Hmm--the Farce is strong in this one.

[ArmsMerchant]

Gotta love the self-pwnage.

It is called humility.

Someday, you may experience it yourself.

[Snoopy]

Hmm--the Farce is strong in this one.

Sorry dude, but your OP sounded like something a Jedi would say and you do look like Obi-Wan in your picture as well, minus the cowboy hat.

[AngryOnion]

For some reason I thought of this thread today and thought to myself Arms I mean Greyfox you are not denying GOD,you are only human.
This is what people DO when we are on this plain of reality,this is nothing.
I cant wait until I am dead ,then the REAL stuff is gona happen:D

[ArmsMerchant]

This must be that guilt that religious people are always struggling to deal with.

Incorrect--what I felt was not guilt, it was remorse. There is a huge difference.

I don't do guilt.

Nor do I struggle.

[AngryOnion]

Sorry dude, but your OP sounded like something a Jedi would say and you do look like Obi-Wan in your picture as well, minus the cowboy hat.

Its not a cowboy hat its Indiana Jones Dammit!
I mean it looks like Indiana's hat anyway.Kby

[Manifesto]

God is the force that is not within, yet it is not without.
God is between the conscious and the subconscious.
God is the inescapable pattern that controls all "perception."
God is what is not real and what is not unreal.

God is acid.

[Rizzo in a box]

Hah, I deny God all the time. Hell, I deny everything. I've taken spirituality to a supremely nihilistic conclusion. Of course the Buddha warned against taking the teachings of emptiness and turning into nihilism but I think if properly done, it ownz.

Personally I feel that if you can't have the courage of Lucifer, you can't ever come close to God.

[Toothlessjoe]

God is not some invisible friend in the sky, nor a super Santa Claus who keeps a list of who's naughty and who's nice--God is infinite, not confined to a mythical heaven, but is in all of us, and everything.


That's your opinion. I thought you'd be smarter than to just shit on major religions that others follow in such a self-enlightened way.

[ArmsMerchant]

That's your opinion.

Yes, it IS my opinion.

It is also the opinion of Jesus Christ (who observed that "the kingdom of God is within you"), the Buddha, pretty much all the true saints, but especially John of the Cross, Teresa of Avilla, and Bernard; Rumi (a 12th century Sufi poet and mystic), and a host of more recent writers including Aldous Huxley, Deepak Chopra, Neale Donald Walsch, and Stephen Gaskin.

[Rizzo in a box]

You can't even prove that Jesus Christ existed, let alone what his opinion was, you arrogant piece of shit. Don't put words into Jesus' mouth, you scurvy shyster faggot!

Why talk of proof in a religion forum? Take that to the math forum.

[Snoopy]

Why talk of proof in a religion forum? Take that to the math forum.

Because people's "faith" is like a used maxi pad. Proof is everything. Mathematical proof. Words are always open to interpretation. Even theories need to have some mathematical and logical background.

You people, have none.

[Persian]

Yea, if you could prove anything you say, I'd be willing to agree with you, but most religious people insist on believing on nothing but blind faith. Unfortunately, they aren't withholding the truth, there just is none. There's no proof for the existence of any of the gods/spiritual beings.

We will find out the truth when we die, there's no point trying to decide which belief is right while you're alive - the odds are you'll get it wrong. Just live your life ignoring religions. Live life - enjoy yourself and follow a good moral system.

[Resign the King]

Why talk of proof in a religion forum? Take that to the math forum.

Because there should be no area of life where something is held to be true free from questioning.

[Rizzo in a box]

We will find out the truth when we die, there's no point trying to decide which belief is right while you're alive - the odds are you'll get it wrong. Just live your life ignoring religions. Live life - enjoy yourself and follow a good moral system.

what a pitiful existence


Because there should be no area of life where something is held to be true free from questioning.

I agree 100%

questioning does not mean asking for rational proofs in a subject that is at best, mostly irrational.

[Persian]

what a pitiful existence

All existence is pitiful, but if you absolutely feel the need to follow good morals and crap as stated in the major religions, do them without resorting to using your skydaddy to explain everything...

[Rizzo in a box]

All existence is pitiful, but if you absolutely feel the need to follow good morals and crap as stated in the major religions, do them without resorting to using your skydaddy to explain everything...

Hahaha, I have the morals of a meth addicted, vampiric politician. You're throwing around generalizations that just do not apply.

[Rizzo in a box]

They apply perfectly fine. You're a fucked up druggie who's stuck in a world of fantasy.

Which is why I "follow good morals and crap as stated in the major religions" and also "resorting to using your skydaddy to explain everything"?

Okay, sure man. Whatever you say.

[Persian]

Hahaha, I have the morals of a meth addicted, vampiric politician. You're throwing around generalizations that just do not apply.

Ah I'm sorry. My post was directed mainly at the people who follow the main religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam).

But my point is: You can't prove god or be sure of what he is, or whether or not he exists, so you're just as well living as though he doesn't exist. You save a lot of time by not praying and going to church =).

[Toothlessjoe]

Yes, it IS my opinion.

It is also the opinion of Jesus Christ (who observed that "the kingdom of God is within you"), the Buddha, pretty much all the true saints, but especially John of the Cross, Teresa of Avilla, and Bernard; Rumi (a 12th century Sufi poet and mystic), and a host of more recent writers including Aldous Huxley, Deepak Chopra, Neale Donald Walsch, and Stephen Gaskin.

It's all it is: opinion.

The age of religion has been usurped by intelligence. The concept of heaven, nirvana etc may be nice, but they're all preaching you to be kind, helpful, law abiding etc. The government preaches that too but we don't worship them!

Having peace within yourself by making choices that best reflect your true nature is no more spiritual than seeing a doctor because you have a brain abnormality. Here's my thesis, taken from another thread related to this matter:

if you believe in the validity of logic and its correlation to the real world (and you better; otherwise, you wouldn't be able to use Zoklet), you absolutely cannot even entertain the idea of a supernatural being or beings. Why? Because the existence of a supernatural being presupposes something outside of the law of cause and effect. And if anything--absolutely anything--lies beyond cause and effect, then cause and effect itself ceases to be a reliable observation.

For instance: suppose you are turning a gear, which is in turn attached to the teeth of another gear. Now obviously, the law of cause and effect will say that such-and-such gear will turn the such-and-such teeth of such-and-such gear when you apply kinetic energy to either of them, provided that they are in a logical configuration.

However, let's consider this: something is outside of the law of cause and effect. Even better, let's consider the popular idea that there's an omnipotent, omnipresent intelligence that lies beyond cause and effect, able to change it at will. If this were the case, then the action and reaction of those gears is no longer predictable. And not only those gears; nothing can be determined if anything exists outside of cause and effect. If something exists outside of cause and effect, then cause and effect becomes unreliable; which means, when you boil it down to ones and zeros, that logic itself is entirely unreliable.

Which means that you don't have machines. You don't have computers. You don't have life.

Of course, I'm sure that someone can come in and say: "What if that which lies beyond cause and effect decides not to interrupt the process?" That's all fine and dandy, except that every religion to date depends upon something outside of cause and effect in order for that religion to make any sense whatsoever. The Israelites enslaved by the egyptians? It wasn't cause and effect. It was God's Mandate, from without the material world.

Not only that tiny little fact, however, shows the fault in the "outside of cause and effect" argument. In order to justify such a statement, one must assume supreme knowledge of said supernatural being or beings. In essence, one must assume him/herself to be the supernatural being. Yet this, however much one might wish it into being, cannot possibly be the case. We ourselves are entirely bound by cause and effect in the material world, and if such a supernatural land of fairies and gremlins existed, we would never be able to comprehend it. We are bound to the world in which we exist, and that world is very plainly a law of cause and effect. Even if one could presume to know the nature of supernatural beings, he or she now has the burden of proof--for which there is none, nor will there ever be.

In addition, some agnostics may argue: "But Toothless! Just because we can't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there!" And my response: of course it doesn't mean that, but it does little to change my argument. My argument is that the validity of logic's entirety depends upon cause and effect, and anything beyond cause and effect introduces a variable that can't be predicted or factored into any cohesive argument. I could easily say that some people will be able to read this post, unless ghosts stop them from doing so! Such is the fault inherent in the agnostic argument: by introducing variables outside of logic, the process of logic itself becomes fruitless.

The point I make here is that the world -much like Snoopy addressed- runs on mathematical proof, scientific proof and so forth. We don't work on blind faith. You spirit lovers can use that useless rhetoric that God is outside everything therefore we can't prove his existence, but that doesn't prove he does exist.

Cause and Effect is a be all, end all. You can't simply adhere to it when it suits you and for this reason religion fails. We can sum up all the feelings and causes pertaining to religion in all its forms with psychology.

When will you let it go?

[Snoopy]

Which is why I "follow good morals and crap as stated in the major religions" and also "resorting to using your skydaddy to explain everything"?

Okay, sure man. Whatever you say.

That's what it comes down to, yes. Certain words are open for interpretation. Words like "good", "morals", "crap" and "skydaddy".

[Cir]

Box store, eh?

[Rizzo in a box]

It's all it is: opinion.

The age of religion has been usurped by intelligence. The concept of heaven, nirvana etc may be nice, but they're all preaching you to be kind, helpful, law abiding etc. The government preaches that too but we don't worship them!

Having peace within yourself by making choices that best reflect your true nature is no more spiritual than seeing a doctor because you have a brain abnormality. Here's my thesis, taken from another thread related to this matter:



The point I make here is that the world -much like Snoopy addressed- runs on mathematical proof, scientific proof and so forth. We don't work on blind faith. You spirit lovers can use that useless rhetoric that God is outside everything therefore we can't prove his existence, but that doesn't prove he does exist.

Cause and Effect is a be all, end all. You can't simply adhere to it when it suits you and for this reason religion fails. We can sum up all the feelings and causes pertaining to religion in all its forms with psychology.

When will you let it go?

Sorry, cause and effect is just a stepping stone. For instance: existence. At some point, there had to have been something which didn't have a previous cause.

[Toothlessjoe]

Sorry, cause and effect is just a stepping stone. For instance: existence. At some point, there had to have been something which didn't have a previous cause.

It's not God.

[Rizzo in a box]

It's not God.

I never said it was. I hate that word. It's stupid, trite, meaningless, subjective, and worst of all, cliché as all hell - pardon the pun, arr harr harr...

[LiquidIce]

Quantum physics has some unfinished business with this old, deterministic cause&effect bitch, that ventured into this thread.

[ArmsMerchant]

"We don't work on blind faith. "

Neither do "we." We work on unitive knowledge of the Divine Ground of all being.

At an individual level, however, knowledge is a function of being. For some odd reason, only those who have attained a high state of spiritual being--evidenced by being pure in heart and poor in spirit, being able to transcend fear and manifest unconditional love--can attain such knowledge.

[ArmsMerchant]

Box store, eh?

Unfamiliar with the term? This is not a place which sells various types of containers.

It is a large, megamarkety place, characterized by rather uninspired, box-like architecture.

The place in question is Three Bears Alaska, one of , I think, four stores all locally owned and operated. It is right up and over the hill from the cabin I rent, reside in, and run my business from. My legal address--for tax and voter registration and car registration purposes--is an old trailer halfway between Willow and Talkeetna, where my wife and son live.

[ArmsMerchant]

Well, I did it.

Last Sunday I was in the store, the same guy was in one of the johns, down on his knees scrubbing the floor behind a toilet. I said "Excuse me," and he turned around with this sort of wary look on his face.

"I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your work. My cabin doesn't have running water and it is really great to be able to use a nice clean restroom now and then."

He got this big smile on his face, and said "Thank you very much."

It may have made his day--I know it made mine.

[7i8_Dago]

Well, I did it.

last Sunday I was int he store, the same guy was in one of the johns, down o his knees scrubbing the floor behind a toilet. I said "Excuse me," and he turned around with this sort of wary look on his face.

"I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your work. My cabin doesn't have running water and it is really great to be able to use a nice clean restroom now and then."

He got this big smile on his face, and said "Thank you very much."

It may have made his day--I know it made mine.

Retribution?

[kirby]

Why has God not smitten you?

[ArmsMerchant]

"Retribution"? Dude, what are you smoking?

I expressed appreciation for the guy's work, he thanked me, and we both felt better about ourselves as a result--a win/win deal.

[KillSwitch_J]

God is infinite, not confined to a mythical heaven, but is in all of us, and everything.

This is pretty much my take on.:thumbsup:

[KillSwitch_J]

Well, I did it.

last Sunday I was int he store, the same guy was in one of the johns, down o his knees scrubbing the floor behind a toilet. I said "Excuse me," and he turned around with this sort of wary look on his face.

"I just want to tell you how much I appreciate your work. My cabin doesn't have running water and it is really great to be able to use a nice clean restroom now and then."

He got this big smile on his face, and said "Thank you very much."

It may have made his day--I know it made mine.

Well done.

[Danger]

Because people's "faith" is like a used maxi pad. Proof is everything. Mathematical proof. Words are always open to interpretation. Even theories need to have some mathematical and logical background.

You people, have none.

dude, only 4% of the total energy density in our universe can be perceived by the human brain, the 22% dark matter and 74% dark energy we can barely even begin to comprehend...

I believe it was Cambridge university, they suspended serveral particals in a vacuum, and lowered the temperature to absolute zero. All vibration in the container should have ceased... What happened? There was enough energy in the container to bring our oceans to boiling point...

I see god as all energy/matter which makes up the universe.. What else is there?

[LiquidIce]

^ Temperature of absolute zero is almost unattainable. That would mean a total lack of kinetic energy, that would mean light would have to stop. Try stopping photon - you can bounce 'em off or absorb them.

What is the source of that, I'm damn curious now.

Oh and Greyfox, good thing you did there. On the other hand, I don't see any other reason then being anti-dick to other people to do that. I mean I don't need to love and care and all that, it's just the fact that I appreciate it even though I don't say a thing, but vocalizing that appreciation is more win.

[Kidney Punch]

Sorry, cause and effect is just a stepping stone. For instance: existence. At some point, there had to have been something which didn't have a previous cause.

Why? What makes you think that the universe ever begun? What if it always just 'was'? Just because the human mind can't process the concept of infinity doesn't mean the answer is always 'a wizard did it'.

[OniDeathGod]

As you should be.

...That janitor is probably dead now (shot himself).

haha, bit late but i have to comment on how this made me laugh.

[Jordan]

God is energy, god is everything.

[Danger]

^ Temperature of absolute zero is almost unattainable. That would mean a total lack of kinetic energy, that would mean light would have to stop. Try stopping photon - you can bounce 'em off or absorb them.

What is the source of that, I'm damn curious now.

forget what you've been taught........

All the people who said free energy was impossible, its time you learned the truth..

http://www.soksa.com/thread.aspx?lt=1&lp=0&sku=195

http://www.physorg.com/news91981804.html

[Mathematics]

forget what you've been taught........

All the people who said free energy was impossible, its time you learned the truth..

http://www.soksa.com/thread.aspx?lt=1&lp=0&sku=195

http://www.physorg.com/news91981804.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy#Proposed_Free_Energy_Devices

Zero point energy is not controversial, as long as you mention that it can't be used to do useful work in a thermodynamic system.

[Danger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy#Proposed_Free_Energy_Devices

Zero point energy is not controversial, as long as you mention that it can't be used to do useful work in a thermodynamic system.

whatever you say.. its prooving that absolutely everythings connected, there is no such thing as empty space... Everything's energy and there's free energy everywhere.. wether or not we can harness this energy with current technology is not up for debate(We can)..

more proof of m/string theory imo... which also leads into some fucked up mayan ideas often ignored wich im not going to get into now...

[Danger]

http://pesn.com/2009/01/21/9501515_ZeroPointEnergy_Valone/

[The General]

denying God is a very complicated subject. I need to read up on this stuff again I really don't remember it that well.

[LiquidIce]

http://pesn.com/2009/01/21/9501515_ZeroPointEnergy_Valone/

Well, space is reality, since the universe is expanding the temperature goes down, this energy is made into space? This ain't nothing new, but that doesn't mean the we will have free energy. Or that there's some revolution in science, because we're still far away from truly modelling the world. At least we're on the right path methinks.

[Mathematics]

whatever you say.. its prooving that absolutely everythings connected, there is no such thing as empty space... Everything's energy and there's free energy everywhere.. wether or not we can harness this energy with current technology is not up for debate(We can)..

more proof of m/string theory imo... which also leads into some fucked up mayan ideas often ignored wich im not going to get into now...

Atleast give us a glimpse of your world where zero-point energy machines are possible, and explain how these are related to superstring theory.

:rolleyes:

[harry_hardcore_hoedown]

Atleast give us a glimpse of your world where zero-point energy machines are possible, and explain how these are related to superstring theory.

:rolleyes:

I don't think metaphysics is meant to be bound by the laws of nature, only your imagination. If you truly believe something, don't let science get in your way. And the more nonsensical and antiscientific, the more likely it is to be accepted among the pseudointellectual failures that inhabit this board.

[Mathematics]

http://pesn.com/2009/01/21/9501515_ZeroPointEnergy_Valone/

Watched a bit and predictably it sounds like bullshit. He's attempting to blind people with (pseudo) science. Virtual particles are the forces mediators in quantum field theory, he describes mainstream science as saying they don't exist, when there are actually numerous phenomena explained in terms of virtual particles.

[LiquidIce]

Watched a bit and predictably it sounds like bullshit. He's attempting to blind people with (pseudo) science. Virtual particles are the forces mediators in quantum field theory, he describes mainstream science as saying they don't exist, when there are actually numerous phenomena explained in terms of virtual particles.
Can't watch that stuff since my connection is so slow - virtual particles are gluons and such or is my physics gotten real rusty?

edit: ok, googled it, gluons are one of the virtual particles. If the vid says that modern science doesn't "believe" in virtual particles then it's total shit.

[Rizzo in a box]

Why? What makes you think that the universe ever begun? What if it always just 'was'? Just because the human mind can't process the concept of infinity doesn't mean the answer is always 'a wizard did it'.

Whatta makes ya' say that the human mind can't process infinity?

I must humbly disagree, based on numerous experiences. Psychoactive or otherwise.

[Danger]

Atleast give us a glimpse of your world where zero-point energy machines are possible, and explain how these are related to superstring theory.

:rolleyes:

again i'm not trying to debate wether zero poing energy machines are possible with current technology, thats for another place another time.. What about in 1000 years from now? what about a 1,000,000 would it be possible then???.... it seems a bit arrogant/ignorant considering there are still textbooks that tell us zero point energy dosnt exist..

Free energy wasnt the basis of my argument anyways.. I simply brought up the fact that there is an infinate amount of energy around us at all times, there is no such thing as empty space and nothing is truly as it appears...

As for your question on the mayans..


The mayans believed the astral bodies of their ancestors were to come back in the form of the sky serpant, or vessel, feathered serpant, Kukulcan, quetzacoatl..

There was a good documentary released early 2009 about all the Nasa video's and there apparent "ufo explanations".. It goes on to show that in 1/60 frames per second on each and every one of these video's, every few minutes these strings appear, seem to scan a certain section of space, then vanish, instantly I thought about the mayans.....its an excellent video if I find it again I'll post it..

[Danger]

I don't think metaphysics is meant to be bound by the laws of nature, only your imagination. If you truly believe something, don't let science get in your way. And the more nonsensical and antiscientific, the more likely it is to be accepted among the pseudointellectual failures that inhabit this board.
Much of it's based on quantum physics actually, although I'm sure you knew that already, considering you know it all.. http://www.pymander.com/AETHEREAL/PRINC~1.htm

[harry_hardcore_hoedown]

Much of it's based on quantum physics actually, although I'm sure you knew that already, considering you know it all.. http://www.pymander.com/AETHEREAL/PRINC~1.htm

No, much of it is based on dumbass misinterpretations of scientific concepts.

[LiquidIce]

No, much of it is based on dumbass misinterpretations of scientific concepts.

QFT. Metaphysics answers very human-like questions. These questions rarly have much to do with science. And if they do, in science it is a theory, but in the metaphysical world you see cults popping up like mushrooms after rain.

[ArmsMerchant]

Personally I feel that if you can't have the courage of Lucifer, you can't ever come close to God.

As I understand the myth, Lucifer was just an angel who got uppity--became jealous of mankind (jealousy being a form of fear) and went on an ego trip.

[Snoopy]

As I understand the myth, Lucifer was just an angel who got uppity--became jealous of mankind (jealousy being a form of fear) and went on an ego trip.

For gead reason too. He has super powers. He should be ego tripping all over the place.

[Reality Apologist]

I don't think metaphysics is meant to be bound by the laws of nature, only your imagination. If you truly believe something, don't let science get in your way.

Congratulations: you've made the most false statement of the day.

[harry_hardcore_hoedown]

Congratulations: you've made the most false statement of the day.

More like the only coherent statement on this forum.

[Reality Apologist]

More like the only coherent statement on this forum.

Nonsense. Metaphysics without science as a guide is never going to take us anywhere--we'll be right back at the armchair speculation of the Ancient Greeks. Science is by far the most sophisticated and reliable cognitive tool that humans have invented thus far, and it has the potential to uncover far more about the world than speculative metaphysics does. There's a place for conceptual analysis, but that place is as a compliment to science, not a replacement for it.

[ArmsMerchant]

^Speaking iof science, I recently read an article in Astronomy magazine about the orgins of the universe. Sounded a lot like the Vedas--written thousands of years ago.

That said, metaphysics is about transcending science--and pretty nearly everyting else--getting past the ego, the superstition of materialism, the illusion of separation--down where the "god in embryo" resides in each of us.

[ArmsMerchant]

Science is everything.
.

What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul?

[Reality Apologist]

This hasn't got a damn thing to do with "soul". It is just your dumb brain being unable to comprehend science. Go study theoretical mathematics and physics if you want to be enlightened, instead of reading books by con men who write only empty rhetoric.


Moreover, in light of the staggering success of science, there's a deep and profound question as to what the heck spiritual metaphysics is about. As Snoopy pointed out, it seems that simple physics can (at least eventually) explain everything there is to explain about the world. That is, a good enough understanding of physics would seem to explain why you think the way you think, why you married the person you married, why you're wearing the shirt you're wearing, and even why you find these explanations unsatisfying. In light of that kind of knowledge, it seems reasonable to ask what it is that the supposed spirit, soul, or whatever is actually doing; what's this stuff for?

Here's the sense in which metaphysics (broadly construed) is useful: philosophers excel at identifying important questions that need to be addressed, and at rigorously exploring the important parts of those questions. Theorizing about the world based on what "feels right" or (in the Aristotelean tradition) what "seems most perfect," though, is bound to lead to confusions. When conceptual analysis has identified the proper questions (and articulated why those questions are important), the task falls to natural science to actually figure out the _answers_ to those questions. If some question doesn't seem to be answerable by the natural sciences (e.g. 'do humans have free will?') that's just reason to suspect that the question has been poorly posed: send it back to the philosophers for more clarification.

[harry_hardcore_hoedown]

Nonsense. Metaphysics without science as a guide is never going to take us anywhere--we'll be right back at the armchair speculation of the Ancient Greeks. Science is by far the most sophisticated and reliable cognitive tool that humans have invented thus far, and it has the potential to uncover far more about the world than speculative metaphysics does. There's a place for conceptual analysis, but that place is as a compliment to science, not a replacement for it.

I think you misread what I was saying. I never said that metaphysics should replace science. Metaphysics is completely pointless.

[Reality Apologist]

I think you misread what I was saying.

And so I did. My most sincere apologies!

[Obbe]

Greyfox: I do not believe the "soul" can be lost.

Everyone else: Science is great. It's a lot of fun, and most of the time it just observes phenomena and attempts to derive how best to act with said phenomena without presupposing anything. But it is also has no purpose and really doesn't matter.

[LiquidIce]

Greyfox: I do not believe the "soul" can be lost.

Everyone else: Science is great. It's a lot of fun, and most of the time it just observes phenomena and attempts to derive how best to act with said phenomena without presupposing anything. But it is also has no purpose and really doesn't matter.

Care to ellaborate on that statement? How science has no purpose (so why is it fun? why does it exist?) and if it doesn't matter, how come so much depends on it? Remember, science is not only white labcoats and thick black glasses, it's much, much more. It's one of the ways towards truth.

[Obbe]

so why is it fun?

Fun is purposelessness.

why does it exist?

Same reason everything exists. :lol: (No reason)

and if it doesn't matter, how come so much depends on it?

Nothing that "depends" on science matters.

Remember, science is not only white labcoats and thick black glasses, it's much, much more. It's one of the ways towards truth.

"The truth" doesn't matter, has no purpose, and we'll never be certain of it no matter how much science explains.

But like I said ... it's great fun.

[LiquidIce]

"Fun" turns on some chemistry in your brain and you're having fun. Fun means pleasure. Thus, you're saying that science is 'done' for pleasure? But I assure you, there are many other reasons!

Yes, while many things do not need a reason to exist - something that is man-made, in almost all cases, has a reason to exist. I've yet to find a building, a tool, an idea or a theorem that has no reason to exist yet does so.

You are forgetting that you depend on science. Breakthroughs in biology, physics and chemistry made possible your existence - from your birth to your life. Without it, the chance of your nonexistence would be much, much higher.

Also, when I mention truth I think about our little human truth - information that matters to us. Not the absolute truth that some people hold to exist, but the simplified idea of truth that matters the world to us, because we base our lives on it. You cannot hold beliefs without thinking they're true? Or can you?

Overall I can agree with you on one thing: science is fun;)

[ArmsMerchant]

Metaphysics is completely pointless.

It should be noted that the above statement is not a fact, but an opinion, and a strikingly ignorant one at that. One may as well say that mathematics or geology or homeopathy is pointless. In the traditional metaphysics of Christianity, the "point" is to achieve salvation. In Buddhism, the "point" is to attain enlightenment. In the Perennial Philosophy--the metaphysics of the Veda, the Sufis, the Gnostics, the more competant saints (people like John of the Cross, Bernard, and Theresa of Avilla), the "point" of metaphysics--that is, the end and goal of life itself, is to achieve unitive knowledge of the divine ground of being. That is the highest good , the greatest possible goal of life.

To mistake any other thing--no matter how good--for the greatest good is idolatry. This is becoming increasingly common, BTW--I suspect that today, more people adore and "worship" materialism or nationalism than worship or adore God, in any but the most superficial and superstitious sense of the word.

[Obbe]

Yes, while many things do not need a reason to exist - something that is man-made, in almost all cases, has a reason to exist. I've yet to find a building, a tool, an idea or a theorem that has no reason to exist yet does so.

All buildings, tools, ideas, theorems, etc. don't really matter. The "reasons" are your/others projections.

You are forgetting that you depend on science.

You are forgetting we don't matter.

Also, when I mention truth I think about our little human truth - information that matters to us.

What matters to us doesn't matter.

You cannot hold beliefs without thinking they're true? Or can you?

Well, I can. I think of my beliefs as ... belief.

Overall I can agree with you on one thing: science is fun;)

And do you agree that fun is purposeless? :lol:

[LiquidIce]

Fun is supposed to bring me pleasure. And it does.

Oh, and shit matters, but that's just my opinion, eh? No use arguing with you, since our viewpoints are farther away from each other than Paris Hilton's legs.

[Obbe]

Fun is supposed to bring me pleasure. And it does.

Well, I tend to think of fun = pleasure, so how about explaining the purpose of pleasure?

Oh, and shit matters, but that's just my opinion, eh? No use arguing with you, since our viewpoints are farther away from each other than Paris Hilton's legs.

Yes, it is just your opinion that anything matters.

[LiquidIce]

Well, I tend to think of fun = pleasure, so how about explaining the purpose of pleasure?



Yes, it is just your opinion that anything matters.

Just like your opinion that nothing matters. It depends on where you stand. If you rocket yourself to the constellation of The Ugly Fat Chick and gaze into space, then humanity doesn't matter shit. But when my thoughts reside in a biological body, it is that body and it's place that matter. I'm having fun because this matters to me ;)

Purpose of pleasure is feel good. :p

[ArmsMerchant]

We are getting WAY off topic here. I intend to start a new thread entitled "everything matters /nothing matters" -- perhaps y'all could continue your argument over what matters and what doesn't and why or why not in the new thread, okay.

[Obbe]

Purpose of pleasure is feel good. :p

I tend to think of pleasure = feeling good. What's the purpose of feeling good? ;)

[Sanchez_Machine]

Uh, I dunno. I'd feel awkward if someone came up and thanked me for cleaning up peoples' shit. It would be a job for me, not some sort of altruistic goal.

Now, the guy who gives food to the hungry and helps out the homeless, sure, why not? But, then again, that guy probably feels good enough helping out people who are less fortunate, and I don't think he'd need a 'pick-me-up' or what have you.

Just sayin'. Those who give to others seem to get enough happiness from that. Being thanked doesn't seem appropriate for the selfless.

That's just me, though.

[ArmsMerchant]

Bumped for relevance to recent discussions.

[#1 Stunna]

Originally Posted by Greyfox
Incorrect--what I felt was not guilt, it was remorse. There is a huge difference.

There is no difference in the definition of the two words, but perhaps there is in the mind of a religious person.

PS: fuck you

[#1 Stunna]

Denying God is not as melodramatic as the gospel might have you believe. Nor need it be a angsty as shaking one's fist at the sky and screaming "There is no God!"

God is not some invisible friend in the sky, nor a super Santa Claus who keeps a list of who's naughty and who's nice--God is infinite, not confined to a mythical heaven, but is in all of us, and everything.

God is love, and God is the most loving and grateful and charitable and noble and honest part of us. We deny God when we fall short of our greatest and grandest conception of ourselves and what we can be.

We deny God when we are impatient with children or the elderly.

We deny God when we observe beauty in nature and scurry past, failing to take a moment to appreciate it.

We deny God when we have a kind or loving impulse and fail to act on it.

Yesterday, I was at the local box store, and used the men's room. As I left, I noticed an employee cleaning out the women's room. I felt like thanking him, telling him I appreciated his efforts, that his work meant a lot to me, since I don't have running water in my cabin. It might have brightened his day, and that small act of kindness might have spread and grown--small acts have a way of doing that.

But I didn't. I was too busy, and thought he might resent my intrusion or think I as being patronizing or sarcastic. Truth is, I was fearful. And fear always drives out love.

And now I am ashamed.

NOTE--For the happy denoument, see post #47.
This must be that guilt that religious people are always struggling with.

[Reality Apologist]

There is no difference in the definition of the two words, but perhaps there is in the mind of a religious person.

PS: fuck you

I'm not religious in the least, but this is clearly not so. I can feel remorse--that is, I can wish that I'd not done something--without feeling like I've done something morally wrong. I can, for instance, feel great remorse at not having purchased a gallon of milk at the store today, since I have all these cookies on hand. Still, I don't feel guilty for not having bought the milk: I don't feel as if I've done something wrong, just that I've done something that I would change if I had the chance.

[#1 Stunna]

I'm not religious in the least, but this is clearly not so. I can feel remorse--that is, I can wish that I'd not done something--without feeling like I've done something morally wrong. I can, for instance, feel great remorse at not having purchased a gallon of milk at the store today, since I have all these cookies on hand. Still, I don't feel guilty for not having bought the milk: I don't feel as if I've done something wrong, just that I've done something that I would change if I had the chance.
If only the accepted definitions of the words agreed with you, I would say you had a point.

dictionary.com : remorse - 1. deep and painful regret for wrongdoing; compunction.

merriam-webster.com : remorse - 1 : a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs : self-reproach

askoxford.com : remorse • noun deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed.

And finally: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/remorse (too long to paste here, but it too gives the accurate definition)

I feel pity for how ignorant you are of words' definitions.

[Reality Apologist]

If only the accepted definitions of the words agreed with you, I would say you had a point.

dictionary.com : remorse - 1. deep and painful regret for wrongdoing; compunction.

merriam-webster.com : remorse - 1 : a gnawing distress arising from a sense of guilt for past wrongs : self-reproach

askoxford.com : remorse • noun deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed.

And finally: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/remorse (too long to paste here, but it too gives the accurate definition)

I feel pity for how ignorant you are of words' definitions.

Not that this matters at all, but I don't think things are as clear-cut as you're implying. Yes, these two words are often used synonymously, but that doesn't mean that their senses can't come apart in some situations. The definition you neglected to copy over--Webster's--defines it as "A feeling of deep regret (usually for some misdeed)." 'Regret,' I think, is a pretty good synonym for remorse--it's a feeling of emotional regret for one's actions--and it seems pretty clear to me that that will often (but not always) line up with a feeling of guilt.

Guilt (once again) implies a degree of moral culpability that remorse (or regret) doesn't necessarily imply. I regret having missed the bus this morning, and feel remorse at not having gotten up 15 minutes earlier. Do I feel guilty about missing the bus? Not unless I was on my way to do something morally obligatory.

[Reality Apologist]

Perhaps we should take this discussion to another forum so we stop hijacking Greyfox's thread.

[ArmsMerchant]

One final word on the above controversial dichotomy--remorse helps us, guilt hinders.

[Figure-8]

Your post will help me express love.

[ArmsMerchant]

^Peace on, dude. . . .

[21st Century 1776er]

Denying God is not as melodramatic as the gospel might have you believe. Nor need it be a angsty as shaking one's fist at the sky and screaming "There is no God!"

God is not some invisible friend in the sky, nor a super Santa Claus who keeps a list of who's naughty and who's nice--God is infinite, not confined to a mythical heaven, but is in all of us, and everything.

God is love, and God is the most loving and grateful and charitable and noble and honest part of us. We deny God when we fall short of our greatest and grandest conception of ourselves and what we can be.

We deny God when we are impatient with children or the elderly.

We deny God when we observe beauty in nature and scurry past, failing to take a moment to appreciate it.

We deny God when we have a kind or loving impulse and fail to act on it.

Yesterday, I was at the local box store, and used the men's room. As I left, I noticed an employee cleaning out the women's room. I felt like thanking him, telling him I appreciated his efforts, that his work meant a lot to me, since I don't have running water in my cabin. It might have brightened his day, and that small act of kindness might have spread and grown--small acts have a way of doing that.

But I didn't. I was too busy, and thought he might resent my intrusion or think I as being patronizing or sarcastic. Truth is, I was fearful. And fear always drives out love.

And now I am ashamed.

NOTE--For the happy denoument, see post #47.

In the New Testament, Peter denied Christ 3 times in one day. It was no big deal. It was a big deal, but Christ still set him up as the foundation of his church. So, I don't understand what you mean about the Gospel being melodramatic.

I mean no harm and offer no judgement by the following as I understand the limits of my own discernment: Could you be trying to draw a contrast between the 'misguiding Gospel of Christ' and your own 'enlightened teaching'? If so, that may be a greater dishonor to God than your failure to thank the man.

I think you did the right thing by considering how your act might have hurt the janitor. As mere humans, our imperfect understanding results in our actions often having unintended consequences that far outweigh the intended consequences. You may have been warned by the budding of a higher understanding that your intended consequences were not the whole of what your act would bring about. Perhaps you understood that you were not in the state to offer what that man needed at that time.

Thank you for your confession, though my belief is that you did not deny God in that scenario.

[21st Century 1776er]

double post, oops

[ArmsMerchant]

21st--point taken. Original post amended.

[ArmsMerchant]

Bumped for relevance to newer thread.

[ArmsMerchant]

Bumped for the benefit of Mr. Kite.

[AllThatIs]

forget what you've been taught........

All the people who said free energy was impossible, its time you learned the truth..

http://www.soksa.com/thread.aspx?lt=1&lp=0&sku=195

http://www.physorg.com/news91981804.html

Free/Unlimited energy has been available for many generations already.
The truth today is that lies and greed run the world.

[bornkiller]

This thread turned out to be quite an interesting read.
Kudos.:)

[ArmsMerchant]

Bumped for the edification of new members.

He said modestly.

[AllThatIs]

Care to ellaborate on that statement? How science has no purpose (so why is it fun? why does it exist?) and if it doesn't matter, how come so much depends on it? Remember, science is not only white labcoats and thick black glasses, it's much, much more. It's one of the ways towards truth.

The same exact thing can be said for 'life' itself, truth can be found ithout science. Metaphysics has purpose as well.

[ArmsMerchant]

In my uninformed opinion, there is no difference in the definition of the two words, but perhaps there is in the mind of a literate person.

PS: I'm fucked

Fixed.

[ArmsMerchant]

...That janitor is probably dead now (shot himself).

Nope--we are still both alive and well.
'
Okay, alive anyway.

[Blunderfail]

Cool.

[BrokeProphet]

....the end and goal of life itself, is to achieve unitive knowledge of the divine ground of being. That is the highest good , the greatest possible goal of life.

It should be noted that the above statement is not a fact, but an opinion, and a strikingly ignorant one at that.

[Obbe]

It should be noted that the above statement is not a fact, but an opinion, and a strikingly ignorant one at that.

It should be noted that the above statement is not a fact, but an opinion, and a strikingly ignorant one at that.

[MellowViper]

Denying God is like denying dark matter. The fundamental idea behind God isn't some man in the sky that judges people off of his prejudiced whims. Its the idea that mind, not just matter, had a fundamental part in the creation/formation of the universe. Since we know from personal experience that mind exists(Im not just talking about thought but conscious awareness), its not really that much of a leap to consider that there may be a fundamental mind, as matter has atoms that act in concert and off the same rules, that all minds, whether human or not, are built from.

[ArmsMerchant]

This thread turned out to be quite an interesting read.
Kudos.:)

I hope someone else thinks so. . . . .

[ArmsMerchant]

God is the force that is not within, yet it is not without.
God is between the conscious and the subconscious.
God is the inescapable pattern that controls all "perception."
God is what is not real and what is not unreal.

God is acid.

God is also a bologna sandwich.

(Just threw that in for CWG readers. . . . . .)

[docus]

This thread is actually one of my all time favourite threads on Zoklet, along with the "Only one day and the cool shit's already happening..." thread in Travel and World Language. Someone should put up text file on this, like it used to be on totse.

[bornkiller]

I hope someone else thinks so. . . . .
Bumping to prove a point. :whistle:

[ArmsMerchant]

Bumped for the edification of new members.

He said modestly.

Ahem.