good, evil, Oneness, and the Illusion of Separation

[ArmsMerchant]

The issue of good and evil is one that theologians and secular philosophers have been dealing with for thousands of years. In this thread, I will try to explain my take on these issues. My intent is neither to convince nor convert, but simply to communicate my truth with clarity, compassion, and completeness. (And alliteration, evidently.)

Christian theology contends that we are born evil (the doctrine of Original Sin) due to the actions of some mythical people at some unclear point in the past. Most of us here reject that notion.

At the Highest Level, there is no difference between good and evil. Some people become quite annoyed by this notion, and respond with hostility and invective--this suggests I have inadvertantly struck a nerve. I maintain that not only is there no difference between the two, at both metaphysical and mundane levels, the terms are essentially devoid of meaning. Good and bad are simply labels we place on thing to denote our approval or disapproval. In general, we tend to label good that which serves us, and bad which does not serve us.

Take something as mundane as weather. Fair weather is "good" if you are planning a picnic, but very "bad" to a farmer whose crops are dying due to drought. Take movies--if I say a movie was "bad", all you know about it is that I didn't like it--no useful information has been conveyed. If I say the plot was cliched, the acting was wooden, and the FX primitive--then I have said something meaningful.

But people are neither weather nor movies. Still, I reject the notion that there are good and bad people. In my view, we are all perfect in our way--God neither creates junk nor makes mistakes. Neale Donald Walsch quotes God thusly:

I am going to tell you this, there are no "rotten apples." There are only people who disagree with your point of view on things, people who construct a different model of the world. I am going to tell you this: no persons do anything inappropriate, given their model of the world. (end quote)


Suppose you disagree, and choose to judge and label people. (The Bible says "Judge not, lest ye be judged." I think this means that in the very act of judging, you judge yourself--that is, you define yourself in terms of what you approve of, and judge yourslef as a person with a need to criticize.) There is nothing "wrong" with this, but it does tend to retard one's spiritual evolution. I have been taught, and accept as true, however, that feeling superior to those you judge as inferior to you is a very cheap way of feeling good about yourself. In my view, no one is any better or any worse than anyone else--at the Highest Reality, we are all one, all part of the universal force or information field collectively known as God.

In other words, no one is somehow inherantly more OR LESS important in the greater scheme of things.

I am NOT saying we are all the same, or even that we are all equaly valuable in terms of our contribution to society or abilities. I may be crazy, but I ain't stupid. I think it wise to acknowledge and celebrate our differences, while still recognizing that we are all fruit of the same tree. However, if you make more money and pay more taxes than I (and most people in America do), that in no way makes you "better" than I. Some of us are more highly spiritually evolved than others (think Mother Theresa vs Jeffrey Dahmer, to cite extreme examples)--but if you think God loves MT more than JD, you have a lot to learn about God. Both of them did what seemed appropriate to them at the time, both had immortal souls, and (I suspect) both have already reincarnated into lives that are radically different than the ones they are known for.

And neither do I say that the more highly spiritually evolved are "better" than those less so--that a person at level six is somehow three times as good as someone at level two. Thing is, we are all on the path to sainthood--spiritual evolution is not only mandatory, but inevitable. Indeed, a person at level two, who is honestly and sincerely plagued with guilt and driven by ambition, is far more spiritual than someone who pretends to be a saint.

Unity consciousness, the gut feeling that we are indeed All One is a level seven thing. Those at other levels do not have much chance of grokking this in fullness. And they will get no help from society or popular culture in terms of evolving farther. Governments, particularly during wartime, foster an "us versus them" mentality, and try to dehumanize the enemy.

(NOTE: I use the seven levels of consciousness as defined by Deepak Chopra in "How to Know God." They are not, I think, the penultimate pronouncements on the subject, but ARE the best we have to work with so far.)

[Apollo]

I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts, I've long been a proponent of questioning people who judge others, and at the end of it, none of them can give a better answer than "it's not moral" and as we all know, morality is subjective.

[pengd0t]

It sounds as though you understand things much as I do.

[Ambient]

I fail to understand unity consciousness.

I understand that our consciousness are all fundamentally the same but the contents are not; but i don't see how they are somehow metaphysically shared in some kind of pool of inter-linked consciousness.

What exactly do you mean by the illusion of Separation?

[Apollo]

What exactly do you mean by the illusion of Separation?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he means the illusion of separation of good and evil, they don't exist.

[ArmsMerchant]

I fail to understand unity consciousness.

I understand that our consciousness are all fundamentally the same but the contents are not; but i don't see how they are somehow metaphysically shared in some kind of pool of inter-linked consciousness.

What exactly do you mean by the illusion of Separation?

To put it briefly:

reality = unity

illusion = separation

"Look closely at any one thing and you will find it is hitched to everything else in the universe." -- John Muir (not an exact quote, but the best as I can recall)

[Ambient]

i guess its not something i can learn from reading on the interwebz huh because that didnt really help.

I understand that we are bodily the same. As a man very interested in culture ( im going for a masters in anthropology) ive learned that people are very different and far from united in relation to culture, although there are such things as "cultural universal's".

The thing is the argument for culture being an intrinsic facet of human life (stimulated via the external enviroment) is very strong (from my point of view) because culture is a human universal. It seems contradictory with the this "Oneness" proposal.

(Although there a select few groups of people within the study of culture who are arguably external from culture in a sense because all of their culture is derived from spirituality, although this is an aspect of culture someone who does not engage in other aspects of culture is outside it in many ways).

[Stinger]

I see we humans as merely animals with large, well developed brains, not separate from nature, and like in nature, anything goes as long as it brings survival. We aren't exempt from the law of the jungle, kill or die, so to speak. Although, the Golden Rule does make for a smoothly running society and is a good idea to follow, but there may come a time where you have to make an exception.

[RosettaStoned]

If I'm understanding you correctly, then your thoughts/beliefs are somewhat similar to the conclusions I've come to. Good and bad are relative to each other, one defines the other, so this means they really are just labels we put on a certain situation based upon other situations. I believe this is what it means when people say good cannot exist without evil. Very good points you bring up, I still have so much more to figure out.

[the beat]

Good and bad are relative to each other, one defines the other, so this means they really are just labels we put on a certain situation based upon other situations..

This is true, and you must realise that duality is necessary for human experience.

If we were all in tune with the Oneness that is all things, there would be no opportunities for growth, which is the very reason why you've chosen to be here, right now. So while it is important to remember that in essence, all things exist in singularity, the illusion of duality is necessary for human experience, and in turn, learning, evolution and growth.

I find myself trying to explore duality with the thought of unity in mind. One foot on either side of the veil, if you will.

[RosettaStoned]

Yea, I think there's a certain point between Oneness and individuality where the truth lies. Not everythin (or much of anything) is black and white. I think one of my favorite stories is when the Buddha makes a connection between the tuning of the strings on a guitar (well, a similar instrument) to following the path to enlightenment (or whatever path you're on). But peaceful/intelligent opposition can really be helpful to growth and evolving mentally/spiritually. Sometimes you need individuality to grow. But I think the whole idea of Oneness (at least to me) is that we are kind of all a piece of a puzzle, and that puzzle being the universe. Every action needs to have an equal reaction, and this is how we are all one. But then again my ideas are always changing.

[ArmsMerchant]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he means the illusion of separation of good and evil, they don't exist.

That is a big part of it--at the Highest Level, there are no such things as good and evil.

At this level, good and bad are merely labels we place upon that we approve or disapprove of. And those labels say more aout us than the thing we so label.

[this-too-will-pass]

I agree with your position. I'd just like to point out that I don't believe in reincarnation, as an agnostic Buddhist I'm up for the possibility, but in my view of the matter it doesn't really matter if you reincarnate or not because you have no recollection of your previous experience.

and that's a good point the beat, I thought I had everything figured out, but now thanks to conversations I've had in sketchy hostels/rereading Nietzsche I'm not sure. I do think that if we ever really attained non-duality it would be the same as suicide, and not just in an ego-death sense but real gun to the head style.

[Rizzo in a box]

Hahaha...suicide. Naw, not at all. Unity of consciousness is our natural state. It's a break from egoistic subjectivity to an impersonal, detached objectivity - at least as far as consciousness is concerned.

At the "Highest level" (have you ever really been there? The Ain Soph Aur levels?) there is no ANYTHING at all, lol.

However, there are very real goods & evils, you just rarely see their true form in this world. Pure good and pure evil are formless, amazing, and terrifying.

[LiquidIce]

Good and evil, maybe they're as intangible as words such as freedom or security?

Did good and evil exist before man?

[Rizzo in a box]

Good and evil, maybe they're as intangible as words such as freedom or security?

Did good and evil exist before man?

Those things are only intangible to yr senses, they can feel just as real as anything else, if not moreso.

And yes, good & evil, in their pure and abstract formlessness, acting sheerly as evolutionary/devolutionary forces have been around much longer than man.

[LiquidIce]

Those things are only intangible to yr senses, they can feel just as real as anything else, if not moreso.
They can change, they're not sensory feelings but more emotional feelings. Let's say you feel insecure - someone graces you with a 0.4l of vodka - a depressant and you calm down OR someone graces you with amphetamine - you won't calm down for the hell of it.

And yes, good & evil, in their pure and abstract formlessness, acting sheerly as evolutionary/devolutionary forces have been around much longer than man.[/QUOTE]

Those are your statements. Anything to back them up?

[Rizzo in a box]

They can change, they're not sensory feelings but more emotional feelings. Let's say you feel insecure - someone graces you with a 0.4l of vodka - a depressant and you calm down OR someone graces you with amphetamine - you won't calm down for the hell of it.

What, exactly speaking, is an emotion? How would you define it? According to your own thought-concept.

Either way, those substances produce a chemical change in the brain that can stimulate feelings of security, or art, beauty, truth, love, etc.


Those are your statements. Anything to back them up?

Hrmm. I suppose I could. How about for now, until we revist this some other time, we just take it as pure opinion, having no real bearing either way?

[LiquidIce]

What, exactly speaking, is an emotion? How would you define it? According to your own thought-concept.

Either way, those substances produce a chemical change in the brain that can stimulate feelings of security, or art, beauty, truth, love, etc.


I just wanted to point out that emotions are not product of rational thoughts so they can be changed by many outside factors - colors, weather, chemicals - so it's pretty hard to just "feel" security as it is influenced by so many factors.

As for defining emotion - tough thing to do, I haven't thought about it much so I won't give a full answer, but it would oscillate around the brain and chemicals and culture. At least for now. If I come up with something decent I'll post it.

Hrmm. I suppose I could. How about for now, until we revist this some other time, we just take it as pure opinion, having no real bearing either way?
Yeah, sure. Don't take my posts as attacks or something, it's just I like to question things and get to know them that way.

[#1 Stunna]

You won't be able to understand what Greyfox means because it is all based on his feelings and beliefs rather than logic or knowledge.

"In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides." - Heinrich Heine

[ArmsMerchant]

You won't be able to understand what Greyfox means because it is all based on his feelings and beliefs rather than logic or knowledge.



Actually, a lot of what I say cannot be comprehended --at least intellectually--because knowledge is a function of being.

For a few mundane illustrations--being a business owner, I know this about running a business that no business student can; being a married man I know things about marriage that no virgin can.

In a similar manner, being a deeply spiritual person (but still deeply flawed), I know things about ,well, Spirit, that someone who has chosen to run away from Spirit--who denies what lies within his or her own heart--cannot know.

[LiquidIce]

Actually, a lot of what I say cannot be comprehended --at least intellectually--because knowledge is a function of being.

For a few mundane illustrations--being a business owner, I know this about running a business that no business student can; being a married man I know things about marriage that no virgin can.

In a similar manner, being a deeply spiritual person (but still deeply flawed), I know things about ,well, Spirit, that someone who has chosen to run away from Spirit--who denies what lies within his or her own heart--cannot know.

Your analogy also says that a virgin cannot comprehend what a married man is saying (about marriage).

A business owner can pass on his knowledge. That way we don't have "the business owners - masters of the universe" and people that have no idea about business and never will.

Also, marriage experience varies wildly, thus there will be many perspective on marriage - ask a muslim, christian and humanist.

Don't think you are the oracle on spiritual matters because there is no "right" or "true" enlightenment, unless you are able to prove so.

[ArmsMerchant]

I have had many gay friends over the years. I still have no idea what it is like to BE gay.

[this-too-will-pass]

Hahaha...suicide. Naw, not at all. Unity of consciousness is our natural state. It's a break from egoistic subjectivity to an impersonal, detached objectivity - at least as far as consciousness is concerned.

At the "Highest level" (have you ever really been there? The Ain Soph Aur levels?) there is no ANYTHING at all, lol.

However, there are very real goods & evils, you just rarely see their true form in this world. Pure good and pure evil are formless, amazing, and terrifying.

That is what I believe. But I think It is hard for me to express this. What I believe is true non duality goes beyond consciousness. What you call Ain Soph Aur I call Sidrat al-Muntaha. I believe that even in the highest levels of consciousness there is still a VERY small level of duality or else you wouldn't be able to experience anything. Perhaps I worded my last post inaccurately. I just mean to say that when you are literally one with everything you aren't able to experience anything and are thus unconscious. I don't mean you physically die.

[ArmsMerchant]

Your analogy also says that a virgin cannot comprehend what a married man is saying (about marriage).



Don't think you are the oracle on spiritual matters because there is no "right" or "true" enlightenment, unless you are able to prove so.

Not quite. My analogy says a virgin cannot know what it is like to fuck.

And please--don't get me started on "proof." This is metaphysics, not mathematics.

See, to get this stuff, first you have to have some faith and take a blind leap into the Void. Then you discover that the Void is not dark, but filled with light. You then have no further need for faith, because you have knowledge.

[tehporp]

Not quite. My analogy says a virgin cannot know what it is like to fuck.

And please--don't get me started on "proof." This is metaphysics, not mathematics.

See, to get this stuff, first you have to have some faith and take a blind leap into the Void. Then you discover that the Void is not dark, but filled with light. You then have no further need for faith, because you have knowledge.

Normally I agree with what you say, but I'm going to have to disagree with that last statement. My knowledge adds to my faith; it doesn't replace it by any means.

For example, I know that any hardships I go through are there to teach me valuable lessons that can only be understood through experience. This gives me faith in myself and in a brighter future.

[ArmsMerchant]

Inevitably, it seems, discussions of this sort tend to devolve into nit-picking exercises in semantics, since we all define words like "faith" differently. I use the term in the religious sense--you seem to use the word "faith" in the way I would use "confidence."

Ultimately, language must fail.

[Rizzo in a box]

Naw, we're just using the wrong language, that's all.

[Ambient]

I believe in good and evil in that i believe in truth and untruth.

I find it hard to fathom spirituality without some conception of truth and untruth.

[ArmsMerchant]

I find it hard to fathom spirituality without some conception of truth and untruth.

Okay, how 'bout this?

There is Truth--stuff like the Perennial Philosophy, that has been stated and restated thousands of times over thousands of years. Then there is one's own individual truth, the product of one's own creation.