Just give up. Nothing will help you.

[Rizzo in a box]

It sounds fatalistic, cynical, nihilistic, and depressing. Which it is, to a certain extent, but it's also true. You need to just give up, give up all this striving and ambition for anything other-worldly. There's no such thing as spiritual progress and unless you're THERE you're nowhere near there.

Your plight is the plight of the everyman. There's nothing unique about you. Your problems aren't special, your psyche isn't particularly interesting. It doesn't matter what you read because your mind is a closed circuit. It doesn't matter who you listen to because you haven't actually listened to anything in years and years. Don't talk of beauty - it's been ages since you've had the pure sensory innocence of just looking at a flower.

Don't talk of life. Your world is dead, as are you and everything around you. You've got no chance and no hope, so don't talk of saviors, gurus, and world-teachers. Don't talk of enlightenment when all you know is inner darkness. You talk of truth when all you are is a lie.

Nothing will help you. Not transcendental meditation. Not the grace of a god-man. No kundalini tantra or hatha yoga. Not holding yr breath or standing on yr head or counting to infinity. Contemplating the trinity, writing poetry, singing hymns, repeating mantras, praying, walking, dancing, laughing, talking - if you think that will bring you closer to yr goal, you're solely mistaken.

So either embrace yr folly as what it is - pure folly, and be a clown...or learn to be a better machine. That's all you are, anyway. This desire for spirituality, this misplaced faith...it's some sort of aberration. It is not what you are looking for. God is your ultimate orgasm, religion and spiritualism are just yr transcendental masturbations.

Give it up.

[Cult Leader]

Good post.

[tehporp]

I prayed for you after reading that post. :)

[Rizzo in a box]

I prayed for you after reading that post. :)

Haha. I'd rather you curse me. That would, at least, make things interesting & fun. Having to stay up all night, drawing sigils and strange occult diagrams all around my room...Burning candles, invoking long-dead angels...

But no. You have to be a "Good Christian" and pray for me. G-d damn it all! :D

[tehporp]

Haha. I'd rather you curse me. That would, at least, make things interesting & fun. Having to stay up all night, drawing sigils and strange occult diagrams all around my room...Burning candles, invoking long-dead angels...

But no. You have to be a "Good Christian" and pray for me. G-d damn it all! :D

Who said I'm a christian? I just believe in the power of prayer.

[Rizzo in a box]

Who said I'm a christian? I just believe in the power of prayer.

Man, I don't care what most Westerners call themselves, or what they think they believe in. They have the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion-concept ingrained into their fucking genes so hardcore that they can read all the buddhist texts and practice all the zazen meditation they want - they're not going to change.

When push comes to shove they're still good ol', G-d fearing, Xians.

Hail Satan! :eek:

[Nero]

Man, I don't care what most Westerners call themselves, or what they think they believe in. They have the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion-concept ingrained into their fucking genes so hardcore that they can read all the buddhist texts and practice all the zazen meditation they want - they're not going to change.

When push comes to shove they're still good ol', G-d fearing, Xians.

Hail Satan! :eek:

I like you.

[Ambient]

Decent post, except for that bullshit about abrahamic religion being ingrained in the western gene pool... to me that illustrates the emotional furver behind the post... its pretty obvious youre fucked off which is pretty much the only emotion in the nihlist palet anyway.

[driveby]

Wow, how can you believe that, and not murder/suicide?

[Ambient]

Wow, how can you believe that, and not murder/suicide?

I think mr rizzo has a significant psychoactive resume

[Rizzo in a box]

Wow, how can you believe that, and not murder/suicide?

Haha, because I lived through it and survived. I gave up. These aren't just incoherent nihilistic babblings - although they're meant to seem like it. This is the living bread, man.

Decent post, except for that bullshit about abrahamic religion being ingrained in the western gene pool... to me that illustrates the emotional furver behind the post

Maybe, but it's mostly a result of observation. After talking with all kinds of different people on various topics regarding philosophy, religion, theology, etc, it seems that yr basic American will regress back to basic, run-of-the-mill Christianity. I do exaggerate, but unconsciously every Wiccan-Taoist-Gnostic-Thelemite is in actuality not much different at all from yr average church-goer. Consciously they may make a big show & display but deep down they haven't changed one bit.

its pretty obvious youre fucked off which is pretty much the only emotion in the nihlist palet anyway.

I'd like to think I'm privy to the entire gamut of human emotion, and then some.

[crazzyass]

It sounds fatalistic, cynical, nihilistic, and depressing. Which it is, to a certain extent, but it's also true. You need to just give up, give up all this striving and ambition for anything other-worldly. There's no such thing as spiritual progress and unless you're THERE you're nowhere near there.

Your plight is the plight of the everyman. There's nothing unique about you. Your problems aren't special, your psyche isn't particularly interesting. It doesn't matter what you read because your mind is a closed circuit. It doesn't matter who you listen to because you haven't actually listened to anything in years and years. Don't talk of beauty - it's been ages since you've had the pure sensory innocence of just looking at a flower.

Don't talk of life. Your world is dead, as are you and everything around you. You've got no chance and no hope, so don't talk of saviors, gurus, and world-teachers. Don't talk of enlightenment when all you know is inner darkness. You talk of truth when all you are is a lie.

Nothing will help you. Not transcendental meditation. Not the grace of a god-man. No kundalini tantra or hatha yoga. Not holding yr breath or standing on yr head or counting to infinity. Contemplating the trinity, writing poetry, singing hymns, repeating mantras, praying, walking, dancing, laughing, talking - if you think that will bring you closer to yr goal, you're solely mistaken.

So either embrace yr folly as what it is - pure folly, and be a clown...or learn to be a better machine. That's all you are, anyway. This desire for spirituality, this misplaced faith...it's some sort of aberration. It is not what you are looking for. God is your ultimate orgasm, religion and spiritualism are just yr transcendental masturbations.

Give it up.


How fucking hard is it to add "o" and "u" to a word? Or is it just...not worth it... *dramatic music as Rizzo cuts himself*

[Rizzo in a box]

Yr so right. Ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. I feel liberated.

[Ambient]

Americans

Well bro im not a fuckin american aight.

Heard of this thing called "culture"?

"Society"?

"Different countries"?

[Rizzo in a box]

Well bro im not a fuckin american aight.

We're all living in Amerikkka... ;)

No, but really. I never said YOU were. Hell, I don't even consider myself American...I personally seceded from this damn Union a long time ago. Still consider myself a Californian, of course. 'tis the land of the gods. milk and honey. Or at least really dank bud.



Heard of this thing called "culture"?

A locally grown disease. Am I right?

"Society"?

Something to do with regular bowel movements.

"Different countries"?

Sorry, you lost me there. Hasn't the New World Order been implemented yet?

[crazzyass]

Yr so right. Ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. I feel liberated.

I thought so.



But yr philosophy is fromz teh devil himself.

[Ambient]

We're all living in Amerikkka... ;)

No, but really. I never said YOU were. Hell, I don't even consider myself American...I personally seceded from this damn Union a long time ago. Still consider myself a Californian, of course. 'tis the land of the gods. milk and honey. Or at least really dank bud.

Well i just think when youre stereotyping the entirity of existance you should take these things into account yeah.

WHen you attack religous and spiritual people and their fundamental beliefs dont fucking cop out at the end and say "oh oh, i meant americans".


This is metaphysics not a fucking anthropology class.

Paraphrase

"Transcadental nature has the equivelant significance of sensory masturbation"

Transcadental nature by definition is not a singularly american phoenomenon.

[Rizzo in a box]

Well i just think when youre stereotyping the entirity of existance you should take these things into account yeah.

WHen you attack religous and spiritual people and their fundamental beliefs dont fucking cop out at the end and say "oh oh, i meant americans".


This is metaphysics not a fucking anthropology class.

Paraphrase

"Transcadental nature has the equivelant significance of sensory masturbation"

Transcadental nature by definition is not a singularly american phoenomenon.

I was referring to how Western culture that has been heavily influenced by abrahamic religions (and to a lesser extent Zoroastrianism), will at its core remain so. Not America specifically, but since that is unfortunately the extent of my personal travels, that's all I can personally comment on. I doubt its very much different from other Western countries. Prove me wrong if you must.

Also, you totally butchered what I was saying with that paraphrase. I have nothing against actual initiates - those people will automatically see through what I'm saying to what I'm actually trying to get across. To everyone else, I'm more, um...how to put this? If UG Krishnamurti was a spiritual terrorist, then I'm a spiritual troll, posting metaphysical goatses to shock yr average human into completely giving up.

also, lol @ humanity being the entirety of existence.

[threat]

I'm curious, you said either embrace the folly or make yourself a "better" machine. From what you stated prior to that, it seems like there is no real way to "better" yourself, with you point of view. So can you elaborate on that a bit?

[Rizzo in a box]

I'm curious, you said either embrace the folly or make yourself a "better" machine. From what you stated prior to that, it seems like there is no real way to "better" yourself, with you point of view. So can you elaborate on that a bit?

You can't really "better" yourself, but you can simplify, reduce, reduce, reduce. Your life is pretty much on autopilot anyway, there is simply a clash between yr sense of self-expression and the machine. We make things much more complicated than they need to be.

Eat, shit, shower, walk. Be simple. "The foolish will laugh but the wise will understand." I'm trying to find the relevant buddhist stories of the monks who ask their teacher, "How can we get out of the cycle of eating, getting dressed, sleeping, etc?"

"That's easy. We eat, get dressed, and sleep."

"But I don't understand. There must be some way out."

"Yes. Now go get dressed and eat."

[threat]

Well played. However I don't really like the notion of reduction, it's like you are cutting off the external world which seems a bit selfish to me.

[Obbe]

Give it up.

Great advice, really. Everything else is a game.

[Persian]

Good post OP, agreed.

[ArmsMerchant]

Man, I don't care what most Westerners call themselves, or what they think they believe in. They have the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion-concept ingrained into their fucking genes so hardcore that they can read all the buddhist texts and practice all the zazen meditation they want - they're not going to change.

When push comes to shove they're still good ol', G-d fearing, Xians.

Hail Satan! :eek:

I don't think you are giving us nearly enough credit. Christianity--as promulgated by the priesthood--is dying.

Thousands--if not millions of us--are finally getting a grip on the distinction between religion (which separates) and spirituality (which unites).

We are finally starting to realize that God--however one conceives of the infinite him/her/it/them/whatever-- is nothing to be feared, but a force--sometimes impersonal as a spam email or personal as a caress; sometimes transcendent, sometimes immanent--to be used, enjoyed, befriended.

I speak as someone who has gone through changes many and profound over the past half-century. And I am still changing, for change is the very stuff of life.

[seafoo]

I agree. Food and sex is all there is.

Nihilist -- i have no values -- i seek repair in death.

[LiquidIce]

Your enlightenment is closed in a glass bubble somewhere in the back of your own mind. You read, you digest the words and spew them back at other people. All you're doing is bouncing off of metaphysical constructs made thousands of years ago. It's like playing pinball, but with your being. Oh, and you're the ball, so you have no idea where the highest score is. But you're getting there, if you just strain and see beyond the horizon of the table, you see a bigger table.

Bounce, because that is all you can do, until you hit the right spot and you spiral down to the... other side? Maybe it's another game or maybe it's the end where you won't need to roll anymore.

[Rizzo in a box]

Your enlightenment is closed in a glass bubble somewhere in the back of your own mind. You read, you digest the words and spew them back at other people. All you're doing is bouncing off of metaphysical constructs made thousands of years ago. It's like playing pinball, but with your being. Oh, and you're the ball, so you have no idea where the highest score is. But you're getting there, if you just strain and see beyond the horizon of the table, you see a bigger table.

Bounce, because that is all you can do, until you hit the right spot and you spiral down to the... other side? Maybe it's another game or maybe it's the end where you won't need to roll anymore.

What I'm attempting to do is knee the side of the pinball machine to get a better score.

Or maybe to break the glass covering, cut myself deliciously with the broken glass and bleed all over the game until some cute couple walks by and vomits in pure horror at the scene.

People tend to project a lot onto me. I never really know where "I" stand. What can you say about "my enlightenment"? I have no enlightenment.
"Enlightenment" just is, or rather isn't really anything at all. Why talk of such things?

It was once said there is nothing new under the sun.

So perhaps what we need is - a new sun!

[Lord hang man]

The unknown is still prevalent, your knowledge would preceed what you do not care to accept as reality. Turn off Tune out Shut down its only a machine after all. All wasted, all and all, only death so shit down. Millions of our soul is dying, millions pull a million triggers, fingers hover above a million buttons. Allah is not here to save us now, one soul bound to Him will not redeem. So now we go it alone, now it's given up. WE beieve what you do now.

Where have we gone what have we done now? We abandoned it all, it's over, yr knowledge is Truth. You seek to deconstruct, what fills the void?

[Got a Lite?]

OP, in your fourth paragraph, you state how all these activities you mention will not bring us closer to our goal. What goal are you talking about as we all have different goals in life?

[LiquidIce]

Funny thing is that in my previous post I tried to emulate Rizzo's stream of consciousness (almost like the koton) style of writing. It was a parody because there's too much form and not enough pure info.

However, on the other hand I see that the response to such texts is of greater intensity so thus I will rely on this method of communication with fellow posters :).

[Resign the King]

What I'm attempting to do is knee the side of the pinball machine to get a better score.

Or maybe to break the glass covering, cut myself deliciously with the broken glass and bleed all over the game until some cute couple walks by and vomits in pure horror at the scene.

People tend to project a lot onto me. I never really know where "I" stand. What can you say about "my enlightenment"? I have no enlightenment.
"Enlightenment" just is, or rather isn't really anything at all. Why talk of such things?


It's not hard to project a sense of enlightened onto you. You're not writing as a peer you're writing as if you have authority, like you have the answer and we don't.

[Lord hang man]

It's not hard to project a sense of enlightened onto you, you're not writing as a peer you're writing as if you have authority, like you have the answer and we don't.

i did not perceive this answer you speak of could you perhaps enlighten the rest of us?

[Resign the King]

i did not perceive this answer you speak of could you perhaps enlighten the rest of us?

I'm not claiming to have an answer. What I'm saying is if you read the OP you will see he discredits all spiritual practices saying this will not work, as if he has achieved by not doing this what all these attempt to achieve. He also compares himself to UG Krishnamurti and explains that he is attempting to 'shock the average human into completely giving up'. This all implies that he thinks he has the answer or anti answer, or whatever it is he feels he has which the average person apparently doesn't and this thing he has is the non achievable goal of all spiritual practice.

[LiquidIce]

^ This. Rizzo talks with certainty in areas where certainty is an alien concept. Also, the reason why I tried to parody his way of writing, although not well enough, was to show him that texts such as "cut myself deliciously" don't... further the topic? I'm not shocked. I've read the koton to some point and stopped because it was filled with much more form than information, which makes reading it hard. And frustrating because I'd rather read something that is a nice, solid piece of info than some comparisons to blood, feces and other "dark and shocking" things.

[Ambient]

Rizzo you have been succesful, we all think your a hardcore deviant mkay.

You can fuck off now.

[Dream of the iris]

While I agree, there comes a point when systems are seen as nothing more then mind, sometimes it helps to have road maps to get us back home.

[Rizzo in a box]

...and ya' missed it.

Oh well.

there's no answer. just get rid of this stupid question.

It doesn't matter one hunkin' heap what I say. I don't care if you agree, think it sounds nice, stupid, or whatever. Who cares? What are you trying to do, get something out of what I'm saying? Hahaha...

Man, I wish moonmeister still posted. At least he got it.

Moon to humanity: om nom nom nom nom

[Kilyke]

While I agree, there comes a point when systems are seen as nothing more then mind, sometimes it helps to have road maps to get us back home.

This?

The mind imposes its own meaning upon a meaningless world when ultimately all you have to do to survive is eat, have sex, and sleep. When you realize that logically, even those actions don't matter in the long run, the question still is "what should I do?"

Rizzo's answer seems to be "go away, I'm busy" ...which is odd considering he sort of resurrected the question in his OP.

Also, I like the esotericness of Rizzo's posts. Its a good break in between posts of dry content.

The whole pinball metaphor was great, made sense and everything. Even more classic was finding out a second later that it was purely satire.

[Rizzo in a box]

This?

The mind imposes its own meaning upon a meaningless world when ultimately all you have to do to survive is eat, have sex, and sleep. When you realize that logically, even those actions don't matter in the long run, the question still is "what should I do?"

Rizzo's answer seems to be "go away, I'm busy" ...which is odd considering he sort of resurrected the question in his OP.

Also, I like the esotericness of Rizzo's posts. Its a good break in between posts of dry content.

The whole pinball metaphor was great, made sense and everything. Even more classic was finding out a second later that it was purely satire.

Haha, I agree.

I do feel kind of a dick for saying something, having people reply, and then just kind of going, "lol, k?" But I mean, at the same time, what is left to discuss? I said my piece, and it was directed at a few people. What do I have to say to

Rizzo you have been succesful, we all think your a hardcore deviant mkay.

You can fuck off now.

something like that?

My biggest draw to posting in this forum is really just as a balance to counter Mr. ArmsDealer/Greyfoxy hard-line New Age nonsense.

And I never compared myself to UG Krishnamurti, I just saw what he was trying to do in a very general sense and I hope to continue that battle. But who cares about UGK or me? We're both dead as it is. ;)

All that has any significance to me anymore is in what I'm trying to say. I don't know, I don't see why everyone takes all this, or anything, so srsly. Sure, I talk like I have authority, because I've established it over myself. I mean, I could get into that whole subject but it would just seem silly. Which doesn't bother me too much since I am a very silly person and here you guys are getting me to blabber on saying "I" every other sentence.

Fuck this. What is this nonsense? Any authority I have is going towards discrediting the idea of authority.

But no. Okay. Back on track. My first post isn't just some metaphysical, philosophical prattling on about nothing. It's something that I have energetically verified, seen first hand. Anything you do will only amplify subjectivity, not overcome it. The more you talk of reality the more disillusioned you become. Why play like that? Empty yr cup.

I don't know. This is all so ridiculous. I didn't even get one person going, "But but but my meditation makes me so peaceful!" I mean, I'm really interested in talking to Liquid but there is such a huge barrier there and it's like I'm trying to smuggle a kilo of some dank and he's got these big ol' dogs and some nasty looking guns and I'm just trying to act completely oblivious and then HE pulls out a bong and well what can you do in a such a position?

But yeah. As long as I remain mildly entertaining I won't really care what I'm saying. I like to go back and look at these topics, two, three months from when they were started and lol @ my concepts and how naive I was. You do that every so often and realize that even though you may not have a clue what you're talking about you have to act like it. And if you do know what you're talking about - gods help you. They will send the dogs after you and yr kilo of Kush.

see? I'm babbling again. I'm not trying to further any sort of topic here. I've got some sort of splinter in my hand...how is this influencing my message? These are the kinds of questions we should be asking.

so yeah...

BTW, since when do you need sex to survive? Don't be a slave to yr genes...!

[Township Rebellion]

...and ya' missed it.

Oh well.

there's no answer. just get rid of this stupid question.

It doesn't matter one hunkin' heap what I say. I don't care if you agree, think it sounds nice, stupid, or whatever. Who cares? What are you trying to do, get something out of what I'm saying? Hahaha...

Man, I wish moonmeister still posted. At least he got it.

Moon to humanity: om nom nom nom nom

I also like you.

[LiquidIce]

They're not dogs, they're puppies! And they're not gun, they're bongs! What ever you impose on my image will be true since we're so not likely to meet in real life and have a father-son talk. Or maybe a son-father talk? Or maybe a father-father talk?

Who knows, who knows...

[Cult Leader]

I donno about enlightenment, or if it truly exists. I doubt the concept (if it exists) could be put into words (and that "we are all one" crap just pisses me off)

Right now I am thinking my purpose in life is to get to the point where I do not care whether I live or die or whether "my soul" will carry on as I will be satisfied with my own life and not feel the need to reincarnate in order to complete or experience any more.

We probably just die and there is nothing more. I would recommend Rizzo, if you haven't yet, to read the "Dialogues of Plato". I think you will enjoy it as it gives insight into what I believe to be a model human (socrates) and his view on life with a complete absence of fear on his coming death.

[Dream of the iris]

...and ya' missed it.



How can I miss it if there's nothing to miss in the first place?


OH SHIT! :O

[TruthWielder]

ITT:

Whiny kids that believe with a small dose of postmodern philosophy they understand all reality and being.

:picard:

[Lord hang man]

losing interest, man who ascended sees no more for his view. i'd just appreciate if in the future you'd mention if you really believe in what you're saying, at least...if in nothing else.

entirely possible that this only caught my eye because rizzo initially made a thread about taoism on totse that inadvertently ended up greatly affecting my life for a while. and you can take that to the bank.

[Obbe]

How can I miss it if there's nothing to miss in the first place?

there's no answer. just get rid of this stupid question.

QFT

"What is the solution to the problem of life?"

"There is no problem."

[Lord hang man]

we're on a journey, not playing jeopardy, there is no question for the answer here.

die and maybe for a brief second His light will shine upon you and you will know. then you will realize yourself, to be seperated or human. and no i dont buy into new age spirituality, any idea penned by self-made monks is no less valuable than my own interpretation, however the general cause for these revalations tend to be moving too fast for my liking. amphetemines can only help you make clear what you know, whether on a guitar's fret board or god as He is made apparent in your psyche.

i only speak like this because my teenage years almost killed me, because on mroe than one occasion i was bathed in eternal light. and all of your souls guided me back.

[Rizzo in a box]

losing interest, man who ascended sees no more for his view. i'd just appreciate if in the future you'd mention if you really believe in what you're saying, at least...if in nothing else.

entirely possible that this only caught my eye because rizzo initially made a thread about taoism on totse that inadvertently ended up greatly affecting my life for a while. and you can take that to the bank.

Haha, I've been There a few times so I know not to really believe in anything.

I see life more as a game of chess. Something to be approached strategically. So...sometimes I'm just trying to fake you out with a rook, and sometimes I just lose the game.

Light yeah yeah, eternity, etc etc. After a while you get over it. Cynical, yes. Sobering? Even more so.

I just sound fucked up because I've been both ways, all the way. & if you don't know what I mean, look at the tree of life. So, whatever. Talk about Jesus all you like, but as long as you separate yrself from him there will only be a man hanging on the cross.

What did William Blake say on this subject? Something about no matter how many times Christ goes through his passion, unless it happens to you in yr own heart...All will be for naught.

And even then - so what? Nothing is permanent. That's why I always lol @ gurus and "masters".

[TruthWielder]

Haha, I've been There a few times so I know not to really believe in anything.

I see life more as a game of chess. Something to be approached strategically. So...sometimes I'm just trying to fake you out with a rook, and sometimes I just lose the game.

Light yeah yeah, eternity, etc etc. After a while you get over it. Cynical, yes. Sobering? Even more so.

I just sound fucked up because I've been both ways, all the way. & if you don't know what I mean, look at the tree of life. So, whatever. Talk about Jesus all you like, but as long as you separate yrself from him there will only be a man hanging on the cross.

What did William Blake say on this subject? Something about no matter how many times Christ goes through his passion, unless it happens to you in yr own heart...All will be for naught.

And even then - so what? Nothing is permanent. That's why I always lol @ gurus and "masters".

The smug noncommital arrogant pretentiousness hurts me in my head place.

[Rizzo in a box]

The smug noncommital arrogant pretentiousness hurts me in my head place.

ar-harr-harr

u r teh coolzor now

[TruthWielder]

ar-harr-harr

u r teh coolzor now

Mockery is how children find social acceptance while skirting the civilized responsibility of critical thinking.

[Nachismo]

Hey rizzo I read your post and had some comments....;.

After reading your original post I got the feeling that you're saying that anything one does on their chosen path of personal growth is a fruitless. You say there is no such thing as spiritual progress yet, denying such a fundemental part of our existance really removes possibilities for some of lifes true adventures.

Everyone has to deal with these issues in their life at one point or another and the more sincere you are the easier things start to happen. In the infinity that is existance, many others have tred along similar journeys, and tried to offer guidence of what they learned. There are too much natural laws in common that come up in different belief systems to deny that there isn't an underlying framework behind the veil of our shared existance. You talk of enlightment like its a kind of certificate you can recieve, or the final goal in spirituality. It's a process not an outcome.

People should use any and every tool at their disposal in the pusuit of spiritual growth. Anything one does as a healthy expression of this urge can only help further the cause. Different techniques work for different people and if you aren't finding success you need to take a different approach or look inside yourself for blocks that are preventing you from achieving your goals....

You got to open your mind truely to the things you try and honestly believe how things work in order to make them happen. Once you actually find success you'll learn that you have a direct understanding (knowing) of the energies you are working with, and confidence replaces faith.

You have to believe 100% in yourself and what you do to progress. Anything less fuels the fires of doubt that make people focus on why things can't happen for themselves, instead of working best with what they got to do everything possible to manifest their goals.

You can't build anything if you do not believe in tools.....

[JoePedo]

Just give up.

Nah.

Don't get me wrong, it's probably good advice. Jihad al-Islam, if spoken far from a peninsula and on a tiny little island instead, is the struggle to just give up... though I prefer the term "surrender." It allows me to think of my teenage angst and mild constipation as a hypothetical physical object, rather than, well, all the myriad of other things it could be. Self, for instance.

Still, I took the path of a boddhisatva rather than a buddha. Why stop now?

It sounds fatalistic, cynical, nihilistic, and depressing. Which it is, to a certain extent

I'm sorry, why is it depressing?

You need to just give up, give up all this striving and ambition for anything other-worldly.

Isn't that practically the same as saying I need to strive and aspire for anything other worldly? If nothing will help me, I'm all out of needs.

There's no such thing as spiritual progress and unless you're THERE you're nowhere near there.

I might be farther from somewhere else, though. This is wicked cool, if I don't want to go there, even if it doesn't change anything else.

Your plight is the plight of the everyman. There's nothing unique about you.

Pretty good thing, too. The narcissistic megalomania of the boddhisatva would be pretty futile otherwise.

Your problems aren't special

True.

This has some rather unspiritual uses. They're pretty nifty.

your psyche isn't particularly interesting.

False. You could've said "unique," and it'd probably be the case, but "interesting" is a far different story.

It doesn't matter what you read because your mind is a closed circuit.

Nah.

It doesn't matter who you listen to because you haven't actually listened to anything in years and years.

If I had, there would have been no hope.

Don't talk of beauty - it's been ages since you've had the pure sensory innocence of just looking at a flower.

Days.

Don't talk of life. Your world is dead, as are you and everything around you.

Yup.

It's when I think it's alive that I know I'm alienated from myself.

You've got no chance and no hope, so don't talk of saviors, gurus, and world-teachers.

Then how could I close my circut more?

Don't talk of enlightenment when all you know is inner darkness.

Psh. If people followed that route, we wouldn't have speculated on nonterracentracism when all we knew was the earth. 'n where's the fun in that?

Hell, bullshitting is the best way to pass the time for the moment.

You talk of truth when all you are is a lie.

Nah. Not all. Just lots.

Nothing will help you. Not transcendental meditation. Not the grace of a god-man. No kundalini tantra or hatha yoga. Not holding yr breath or standing on yr head or counting to infinity. Contemplating the trinity, writing poetry, singing hymns, repeating mantras, praying, walking, dancing, laughing, talking - if you think that will bring you closer to yr goal, you're solely mistaken.

Might take me farther from an ungoal. If I don't have attachment to "attaining enlightenment through X," why is that not a tool?

So either embrace yr folly as what it is - pure folly, and be a clown...

Okay.

or learn to be a better machine. That's all you are, anyway.

I lol'd at the implications, being just about the only self-operating one on a nuts and bolts concept...

...buuuut... what kind of machine is it? Some shit gets really trippy.

This desire for spirituality, this misplaced faith...it's some sort of aberration.

What's that?

desire is some sort of aberration.

That's nice and all, but unfortunately I've cast off all my gurus like ya said above.

Came pretty close, though.

It is not what you are looking for.

lol, the ironies there.

God is your ultimate orgasm

Oh, the loads of trolling commentary there...

religion and spiritualism are just yr transcendental masturbations.

Well, ayisha was a kindergartener...

But... no. Objectively, nothing will help you because you'll still be dust and nothing will have changed. That's cool. Subjectively, things are real because they're real to the people who experience them.

Which... kinda blows the usefulness of all your objectively-valid advice out the window, doesn't it?

If someone pulling their head out of their ass and realizing that we're all quite factually the recycled shit of a T. Rex happens to bring them eternal bliss - and hey, who doesn't get a shit-eating grin, puns and all, out of looking at random people and declaring in one's head "oh yeah? You're just a big pile of dinosaur poop!" - well, their subjective little world is bursting up randomly into giggles and smiles.

That. Is a good. Thing. :)

Objectively? Nothing has changed, no one will know in a few years, no one will care now, and it's all futility, and futility which is prone to rot anyway. So what? Thus said someone attained enlightenment. 'cause life's burdens get a lot lighter when you realize that no one can deny that the daily negotiations of business rely on several thousand piles of poo flinging through the air at several hundred kilometers per hour?

How does it get there, young padawan? Much like the flying brown paper bag, the answer is "burning poo" - there's a mental image of eternal bliss. 'n it just so happens that a certain young monk asked a handful of novice students, "if you call this tree a pile of poo, you deny its plant state, yet if you say it is not a pile of poo, you deny its poo-nature. What is it?"

And thus, the old man attained enlightenment. This changed nothing, and he still keeled over and died and no one noticed. However...

...a year or two after his death, he was delighted to become a smear of worm-poo.

Now how can you state there is futility in that?

[Rizzo in a box]

I'm sorry, I think I've forgotten how to think in English.

the language exists only in my fingers

give me 15 minutes to learn

to type with my nose

then we will DUEL

to a sudden and horrible death

Hold, I think I'm getting it back

just needed moar louader musexxxkz

[TruthWielder]

I'm sorry, I think I've forgotten how to think in English.

the language exists only in my fingers

give me 15 minutes to learn

to type with my nose

then we will DUEL

to a sudden and horrible death

Hold, I think I'm getting it back

just needed moar louader musexxxkz

Look man...I could go out on a long tirade about how you can find purpose and spirituality if you look for it as denying it is like denying the self but rather, I'll just share this link:

http://xkcd.com/167/

[Rizzo in a box]

Look man...I could go out on a long tirade about how you can find purpose and spirituality if you look for it as denying it is like denying the self but rather, I'll just share this link:

http://xkcd.com/167/

hahahahah

what self man?

your "self" is just a reflective hologram of yr own creation.

[Lord hang man]

just energy condensed to a slow vibration. However, as anything would relate to itself, any idea is sure reflective of the experience. I see spirituality as the means to retreive what it was that i lost at birth, that sense of belonging and love of everything that i forgot when i entered this void. In short, life disconnects from true experience of being, because life is so based on intangible forces and yet we can not see what is shown to us through the glass and brick we raise.

[hellspawn]

It sounds fatalistic, cynical, nihilistic, and depressing. Which it is, to a certain extent, but it's also true. You need to just give up, give up all this striving and ambition for anything other-worldly. There's no such thing as spiritual progress and unless you're THERE you're nowhere near there.

Your plight is the plight of the everyman. There's nothing unique about you. Your problems aren't special, your psyche isn't particularly interesting. It doesn't matter what you read because your mind is a closed circuit. It doesn't matter who you listen to because you haven't actually listened to anything in years and years. Don't talk of beauty - it's been ages since you've had the pure sensory innocence of just looking at a flower.

Don't talk of life. Your world is dead, as are you and everything around you. You've got no chance and no hope, so don't talk of saviors, gurus, and world-teachers. Don't talk of enlightenment when all you know is inner darkness. You talk of truth when all you are is a lie.

Nothing will help you. Not transcendental meditation. Not the grace of a god-man. No kundalini tantra or hatha yoga. Not holding yr breath or standing on yr head or counting to infinity. Contemplating the trinity, writing poetry, singing hymns, repeating mantras, praying, walking, dancing, laughing, talking - if you think that will bring you closer to yr goal, you're solely mistaken.

So either embrace yr folly as what it is - pure folly, and be a clown...or learn to be a better machine. That's all you are, anyway. This desire for spirituality, this misplaced faith...it's some sort of aberration. It is not what you are looking for. God is your ultimate orgasm, religion and spiritualism are just yr transcendental masturbations.

Give it up.

This is a person who has truly free themselves from the shackles and oppression of religion. Who has used their intellect to offset (what i can only assume) a lifetime of religious propaganda, i applaud this. And hope that it sets an example for the less enlightened masses.

[Resign the King]

hahahahah

what self man?

your "self" is just a reflective hologram of yr own creation.

The experience is undeniable, the self is the experiencer. The proof is right here right now. This experience is experienced by what we call the self.

[Rizzo in a box]

The experience is undeniable, the self is the experiencer. The proof is right here right now. This experience is experienced by what we call the self.

You can't separate the experience from the experiencer. It is one, continuous, flowing motion of life. The Self is the grandest illusion there is. Maya doesn't even compare.

[Resign the King]

You can't separate the experience from the experience. It is one, continuous, flowing motion of life. The Self is the grandest illusion there is. Maya doesn't even compare.

Even if life is continuous and interconnected which I agree with, it's undeniable that you experience a select corner of reality, you live your life in this specific body and see through your eyes, you don't live my life and I don't live yours.

[Rizzo in a box]

Even if life is continuous and interconnected which I agree with, it's undeniable that you experience a select corner of reality, you live your life in this specific body and see through your eyes, you don't live my life and I don't live yours.

There are no individual lives. Only individual illusions. They're nothing but phantoms, shadows casted by light.

To savagely rape Greyfox, "At the highest level, all is undifferentiated"

[Resign the King]

There are no individual lives. Only individual illusions. They're nothing but phantoms, shadows casted by light.

To savagely rape Greyfox, "At the highest level, all is undifferentiated"

That's all well and good but what is your evidence for this? Just saying individual lives are only illusions doesn't make it so, what are your reasons for believing this? How do you know there is a highest level and what about it makes it higher than waking consciousness?

[Obbe]

Look man...I could go out on a long tirade about how you can find purpose and spirituality if you look for it as denying it is like denying the self but rather

I totally agree that you can see purpose and all that, but I think you can only by projecting it. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with projecting purpose and meaning onto life.

But there's also nothing wrong with realizing natures purposelessness either. Purposelessness doesn't have to be a put down. Realizing that everything has no purpose and nothing really matters just makes life all the more fun. It doesn't stop me from making my own "rules", or from projecting meaning onto things.

Purposelessness doesn't have to be a bad thing at all, it's all in how you think of it. A person who realizes that nature is purposeless can either think, "Ho-hum, life is purposeless, life is so glum," OR they can think "Yippie, life is purposeless, I'm going to have FUN!".

Personally, I'd rather think positive.

[P_R_Deltoid]

Man, I don't care what most Westerners call themselves, or what they think they believe in. They have the whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion-concept ingrained into their fucking genes so hardcore that they can read all the buddhist texts and practice all the zazen meditation they want - they're not going to change.

ahhhbooo. You discounted a perfectly fine original post with this garbage. You're an idiot.

[Rizzo in a box]

That's all well and good but what is your evidence for this? Just saying individual lives are only illusions doesn't make it so, what are your reasons for believing this? How do you know there is a highest level and what about it makes it higher than waking consciousness?

Evidence? Fuck off.

I have no stake in whether you believe me or not. I'm not selling my fucking ideas. I'm interested in self-expression at a fundamental level as a means of psychic and a spiritual warfare against the collective Stupid.

I know because I've been there. It's the same way I know zoklet is a website. I've fucking BEEN THERE. You can't bullshit me. You might not believe but even if you do I don't care.

All I want you to do is suspend judgment for half a second - and go there.

Then we can talk as brothers.

Positivity & negativity are, literally two poles of the same shtick. What does it matter if you're pro or con what I say? It's that something is being said, what is being said. Who talks, who listens?

[Resign the King]

Evidence? Fuck off.

I have no stake in whether you believe me or not. I'm not selling my fucking ideas. I'm interested in self-expression at a fundamental level as a means of psychic and a spiritual warfare against the collective Stupid.

I know because I've been there. It's the same way I know zoklet is a website. I've fucking BEEN THERE. You can't bullshit me. You might not believe but even if you do I don't care.

All I want you to do is suspend judgment for half a second - and go there.

Then we can talk as brothers.

Positivity & negativity are, literally two poles of the same shtick. What does it matter if you're pro or con what I say? It's that something is being said, what is being said. Who talks, who listens?

It's not about selling ideas, it's about being accountable to what you say in a conversation. If you're even going to bother engaging in dialogue at all then engage fully, if you believe there is a higher level say why. If you've had an experience of higher levels describe it and explain what significance you think it has. I have no doubt you've experienced some altered states, exactly what it is or how significant it is I don't know because you refuse to talk about them. The idea you are engaging in spiritual warfare seems strange, a little off, don't see what could be gained through it or how it's 'there'.

I've had spiritual experiences, whether or not they were similar to the one's you've had I don't know. Mostly they were under the influence of drugs so I don't give them much credit. How do you know if all people shared your experience they would give it the same worth? Various religions and people give value to whatever it is that happens to consciousness in spiritual experiences in different ways.

I'm skeptical of the concept of a 'there' to go to in a first place or how meaningful it is. I've been places, whether it's the there you're talking about I don't know probably not. In the end I would like to spend my life thinking, trying to understand the world around me, rather than like bodhidharma spending nine years in a cave staring at the wall.

[Obbe]

I'm skeptical of the concept of a 'there' to go to in a first place or how meaningful it is.

It is not a location, it is not a thing, it is not an event, it has no description, it has no meaning or any purpose.

It is the cessation of all of that.

[Euda]

You could destroy them in an epic thumb war.

[Dream of the iris]

I have no stake in whether you believe me or not. I'm not selling my fucking ideas. I'm interested in self-expression at a fundamental level as a means of psychic and a spiritual warfare against the collective Stupid.




Collective stupid? Anyone whose not you, right?

Please, stop making yourself out to be better then anyone who chooses road maps to get back home.

[Obbe]

There's nothing wrong with using a road map. But the map is just an analogue, not the actual terrain we're using it to relate to.

[Resign the King]

It is not a location, it is not a thing, it is not an event, it has no description, it has no meaning or any purpose.

It is the cessation of all of that.

Yeah so I've heard. I'm still skeptical of it. It's something that happens in the mind and exactly what happens would be interesting to know. It may seem like it's the cessation of all things however, just like with the blackness before dreams when experience mostly ceases, you are still laying there in bed. I'm not convinced it's desirable to end thought, end desire, end sensation, to sit vacant.

[0omnidirectional]

You know, there is a dimension where the symbol is the being, where the map is the terrain. Be careful of what you let those beings tell you, if you ever go there. It can be an interesting experience for them, and devastating for you.

[Rizzo in a box]

Collective stupid? Anyone whose not you, right?

Please, stop making yourself out to be better then anyone who chooses road maps to get back home.

Whose? Who's? Hose? Whores? Horse? Worse? Course?

Yr lame attempts at analyzing me through the periscope of psyche are boring and annoying like the buzz of a mosquito. THWAP THWAP THWAP. Ground to air missiles.

Better? That only applies if there's some end goal we can all strive towards.

There is no "home", and certainly no map that could get you there if there was. Have the courage to just get completely lost. Nowhere to go, no turning back, but nowhere to progress to, either...

The cosmos holding its breath for one instant of eternity.

Then - the apocalypse. Bring yr own beer.


You know, there is a dimension where the symbol is the being, where the map is the terrain. Be careful of what you let those beings tell you, if you ever go there. It can be an interesting experience for them, and devastating for you.

Those beings are yr being. The one in the many, the many is the one.

[Struwwelpeter]

Rizzo = spoiled white boy with Christian parents that didn't get him an XBOX for Christmas. Every word of his original post he says to himself on the mandatory ride to church with his parents, in the back of their minivan, just replace "yr" with "my", "you" with "I".

[Rizzo in a box]

Rizzo = spoiled white boy with Christian parents that didn't get him an XBOX for Christmas. Every word of his original post he says to himself on the mandatory ride to church with his parents, in the back of their minivan, just replace "yr" with "my", "you" with "I".

Sorry but in the past two years I've been homeless more often than naught. My parents were never Christians, in even the least sense of the words. I'm happy to just have a place to sleep, eat, shit, and smoke shit tons of weed.

See, all you can do is focus on a subject. Otherwise yr language completely falls apart. You have no message apart from the pitiful state of yr own "self". Built upon an edifice of illusion, sensory information, animals spasms and orgasms, and demiurgic concepts.

[Struwwelpeter]

LOL

[Township Rebellion]

I agree, that was LOL

[JoePedo]

I'm still skeptical of it. It's something that happens in the mind.

Does the chair actually feel like that, if you're not there to feel it?

I'm not convinced it's desirable to end thought, end desire, end sensation, to sit vacant.

If there is neither you nor chair, but only the experience of feeling... are you still sitting there vacant? And where is the "you" that is sitting?

(okay, maybe a chair was a bad example for questions of sitting, lol)

[Resign the King]

Does the chair actually feel like that, if you're not there to feel it?



If there is neither you nor chair, but only the experience of feeling... are you still sitting there vacant? And where is the "you" that is sitting?

(okay, maybe a chair was a bad example for questions of sitting, lol)

The chair doesn't feel like anything unless there is someone there to sense it. If there's no chair and no person to sense there is no experience. I don't know exactly what you're getting at, maybe you could clarify a bit.

[Waspish]

At least prayer and striving for spiritual completion takes up a lot of ignorant people's time and stops them from whingeing so much about their lives.
It's pointless, but I guess if no one believed in any higher power or place, way too many people would top themselves and it would be really hard to continue the species.
Hope and faith are just a means to trick people into staying here. Don't warn them to give up now, just let them carry on so we can benefit from them when they think they are doing the "right thing".

[Bensozia]

The OP is interesting.

Yes, there is nothing interesting to us. Nothing special. We're just a mound of agglomerated cells that moves along and lives what it needs to live and then dies for whatever reason. We are born, we live, we die. Our difference is that we can muster more complicated emotions and can reflect on our condition which is nothing special.

Become a better machine? Yes... That's what we may hope for. Humanity is just a part of a self-regulationg system: Earth. Once we become useless, Earth will get rid of us just like it got rid of dinosaurs and other primitive life forms.

[Death Snuggle]

I'm pretty sure the only way to have understood this is to have either tripped insanely hard, been strung the fuck out, or been through some nasty withdrawal.

I really like the OP.

[nutsack]

A piece of energy, indistinguishable from the sea of energy around it. Everything you know is an illusion. Is the universe conscious?

[Necro]

In Tyler we trust.

[TruthWielder]

Sorry but in the past two years I've been homeless more often than naught. My parents were never Christians, in even the least sense of the words. I'm happy to just have a place to sleep, eat, shit, and smoke shit tons of weed.

See, all you can do is focus on a subject. Otherwise yr language completely falls apart. You have no message apart from the pitiful state of yr own "self". Built upon an edifice of illusion, sensory information, animals spasms and orgasms, and demiurgic concepts.

It's the sad state of the epistemological takeover resulting from the analytical school's hijacking of all philosophy.

We exist. We are built in such a way to receive sensory information in such a way. However, apart from direct sensory input there remains, as we deduce all manner of understanding our universe, the native reason, the humble and oft ignored a-priori, that still serves as the builder to our foundation and structures of ideas made by the senses.

I hold that it is rational to then contemplate the demiurge, as the builder does not look upon himself and see both beginning and end of all.

Now,do remember that holistically viewing the universe and nihilistically viewing the universe are not one and the same.

When it comes to the process of finding meaning and purpose there are two ways to go about it: From the outside in, or the inside out. Shall we observe the phenomena, their cause, their relation to us, and define the universe's purpose or see ourselves, relate all the factors of our existence to the facts of the empirical realm, and surmise our own purpose? Either path yields interesting observations to be sure, yet both are nothing without the other. We are all within the same sphere of existence and thus I take as a premise that we are all bound by unifying purpose. Of course the very concept of purpose is a fabrication that sheds light on the fact that humans percieve what should be as seperate from what is. So what is? Well...to conclude this metaphysical meandering I know that the universe being inextricably linked without wasted energy or vain will that my actions reverberate across the entire actual manifestation of the idea "universe". Also, all actions of all portions of the universe affect me.That being so, I see that the habit of being virtuous, which I believe is most clearly summarized by Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative, is the best way to follow with our "purpose". Some, seeing the urging to follow what you think is right as imprisonment. It is not confinement, it is release. The way of the universe does not change. Doing stupid things will always yield painful lessons that will show you the way of truth. Morality, and the will to follow it, will always present the strongest blockage of the life lived purely for the sense's gratification. Love, the very essence of this purpose, this will, this spark, call it the piece of God in all of us, brings us together showing us why this is so. Our being calls for it. For righteousness. With that, and the acknowledgement of this "purpose", life can be lived to its grandest and most beautiful extent.

Kant's Categorical Imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

In other words...the golden rule.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." (Luke 6:31, NIV)

[Obbe]

^I think the "golden rule" is a great idea. It is a great thing to practice.

But I do not think it is the "purpose" of me, you, or anything.

[S'trak'yn'yar Krongoth]

I like you.

This.

[TruthWielder]

^I think the "golden rule" is a great idea. It is a great thing to practice.

But I do not think it is the "purpose" of me, you, or anything.

I didn't say it was. You can't define what, by definition, is undefinable: that which gives purpose. The demiurge.

I take purpose as a given because it is a human concept without substance that actually comes from other ideas.

My proposition was that the clearest and most efficient manner of following our "purpose" (as in life/existence purpose) is essentially the golden rule. This is because this "purpose" may have the curious distinction of being either "right" or "wrong", thus entailing a choice, a juxtaposition in paths applicable to any idea but immediately observable in human life. The most graspable purpose of our life is defined by the choices we have in front of us (separate from the choices we make).For example, "my purpose is to exterminate the jews" or "my purpose is too feed the starving children of all the nations" or even "my purpose is to follow God".

It so happens that what is "right" or "good" parallels natural law, in that that which creates unity/love/virtue helps all while that that does not, hurts all because the universe is an irreconcilably connected place. "Purpose" boils down to the choices you have between right and wrong, because those choices naturally parallel the very nature of the universe.The categorical imperative is more clear on that however.

I also proposed that "purpose" is simply a human concept that highlights the perceived distinctions between "what is" and "what should be". Sorry, I wasn't too clear here. I meant to continue on saying that "what is" and "what should be" may either converge and become one or stay apart. When they converge you have goodness. You have the nature of the universe. You have the demiurge at your back spurring your purpose. When they do not you have misery, vice, and the ills and pains of all selfish existence. We have two paths. Two choices. Beyond this, purpose holds no meaning. Irrespective of this, you choose it yourself.

This is why I see "purpose".

That is why I also suggest that freedom is inherent in man. We always have choice, and government must respect this as a foremost duty.

[Zay]

I didn't say it was. You can't define what, by definition, is undefinable: that which gives purpose. The demiurge.

I take purpose as a given because it is a human concept without substance that actually comes from other ideas.

My proposition was that the clearest and most efficient manner of following our "purpose" (as in life/existence purpose) is essentially the golden rule. This is because this "purpose" may have the curious distinction of being either "right" or "wrong", thus entailing a choice, a juxtaposition in paths applicable to any idea but immediately observable in human life. The most graspable purpose of our life is defined by the choices we have in front of us (separate from the choices we make).For example, "my purpose is to exterminate the jews" or "my purpose is too feed the starving children of all the nations" or even "my purpose is to follow God".

It so happens that what is "right" or "good" parallels natural law, in that that which creates unity/love/virtue helps all while that that does not, hurts all because the universe is an irreconcilably connected place. "Purpose" boils down to the choices you have between right and wrong, because those choices naturally parallel the very nature of the universe.The categorical imperative is more clear on that however.

I also proposed that "purpose" is simply a human concept that highlights the perceived distinctions between "what is" and "what should be". Sorry, I wasn't too clear here. I meant to continue on saying that "what is" and "what should be" may either converge and become one or stay apart. When they converge you have goodness. You have the nature of the universe. You have the demiurge at your back spurring your purpose. When they do not you have misery, vice, and the ills and pains of all selfish existence. We have two paths. Two choices. Beyond this, purpose holds no meaning. Irrespective of this, you choose it yourself.

This is why I see "purpose".

That is why I also suggest that freedom is inherent in man. We always have choice, and government must respect this as a foremost duty.

Sounds like objective morality. Morality is as real as our thumbs. It got us where we are today, and is necessary for our survival. Some things, like not killing, not stealing, not raping are universally abhorrent in just about every culture unless it's is twisted and justified with sophistry and whatnot ie. It's ok to initiate force to kill someone if you're wearing a uniform and your government tells you to, or taking money is ok if it's tax. The reason it's objective is because if we apply the same principles to ALL persons of rational mind, we find no conflict. If everyone obeys property rights, there is no error. If joe violates property rights and steals my shit, why can't I do the same thing he does, or anyone else?*implosion* Other things are subjective/aesthetically preferable. Regardless of the fact that we weren't put here by some magical sky god, a lot of the morality taught by Christianity and co is for the better(friendliness, golden rule, forgiveness, integrity, family values(if you can pull off correctly), etc.). universally preferable behavior. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2870039/150675048)

[TruthWielder]

Sounds like, objective morality. Or, universally preferable behavior. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2870039/150675048)

Great link, I'll give it eyes. I especially like the fact that this can be explained from a secular perspective.

[FrY]

Lies, I progress, You wouldent know. Apprently you make the rest.

[Obbe]

Great reply, one thing I'm hung up on though - "It so happens that what is "right" or "good" parallels natural law, in that that which creates unity/love/virtue helps all while that that does not, hurts all because the universe is an irreconcilably connected place." - now I am in complete agreement that everything effects everything else.

What I am not so sure I agree with is how you say what is "good" helps all, and what is "bad" hurts all. You don't think some "good" things would hurt something, and some "bad" things could help something? Since "what should be" is an arbitrary concept depending on the individual, what could help one individual may hurt another.

Now maybe that's just semantics; or maybe "good" and "bad" aren't really defined so easily. I agree that all events/actions/things have an effect on each other, but does every "good" act really help everything? And every "bad" act hurts everything? I'm not so sure I agree with that.

[ZeroMalarki]

I think I had the same epiphany in a slightly personal way in my own thread.

You said it all better.

[TruthWielder]

Great reply, one thing I'm hung up on though - "It so happens that what is "right" or "good" parallels natural law, in that that which creates unity/love/virtue helps all while that that does not, hurts all because the universe is an irreconcilably connected place." - now I am in complete agreement that everything effects everything else.

What I am not so sure I agree with is how you say what is "good" helps all, and what is "bad" hurts all. You don't think some "good" things would hurt something, and some "bad" things could help something? Since "what should be" is an arbitrary concept depending on the individual, what could help one individual may hurt another.

Now maybe that's just semantics; or maybe "good" and "bad" aren't really defined so easily. I agree that all events/actions/things have an effect on each other, but does every "good" act really help everything? And every "bad" act hurts everything? I'm not so sure I agree with that.


You've hit what I believe is the weak point of my argument! :p (and of deontological ethics) : I need to define "good" and "bad" even if I say I can't.

It goes without saying that some "good" things will hurt people in some way and some "bad" things will benefit people in some way. However, to begin I would claim that i'll gotten gains are, ultimately, less helpful than deserved gains. Why? Well, the buddhists and indians would call it Karma but I like to simply recognize that, in a non theological context, the universe is completely connected, every atom linked to every other atom, every intent reflecting off all other intents. That being the case I understand that putting "good" into the universe makes my life better without fail, as what I put into the universe is reflected and multiplied like a small beam of light in a room full of mirrors while putting "bad" into the universe may help me immediately by fulfilling an immediate desire, but will hurt me in the long run not only by hurting others and reflecting that towards me, but as a force of habit cause me to look towards the "bad" rather than the purposeful "good".

Again I go back to the categorical imperative:
"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law." - Immanuel Kant

Take an action and apply it to the categorical imperative as an easy way to see if it fulfills universal law and befits "purpose". Lets say the action is, every so often, knocking out your mother.

Now, everyone follows the rule where they, every so often, knock out their mothers: as a result mothers are injured, some die, death rates soar, moral decline leads to societal decline, societal decline leads to politcal decline, more is justified in the name of "mother punching" and....inexorable destruction. That is, until someone realizes its not good to knock out their mother.

Thus because it does not make sense it is also irrational. This also leads to the conclusion that "goodness" is not only ultimately beneficial but it is also truly rational or reasoned. But thats a different argument. Hmm...

Thanks for your responses man.

[Zay]

Another great post by truthwielder.

[The Jitterskull]

There's nothing unique about you. Your problems aren't special, your psyche isn't particularly interesting. It doesn't matter what you read because your mind is a closed circuit. It doesn't matter who you listen to because you haven't actually listened to anything in years and years. Don't talk of beauty - it's been ages since you've had the pure sensory innocence of just looking at a flower.

Some of this holds truth.

At the highest level we are all one, and no one is special over another.
In this body our mind is a closed circuit. We will be slaves as long as we incarnate here.
The true beauty is dead in our society, but can be obtained by stepping back and viewing the real world. A flower can convey that beauty as you said, I could look at one for hours and be in awe of how all the cells align, and all the beautiful colors. Even in weeds there is beauty.

Some spiritual stuff is hidden in this anti-spiritual message ironically.

[Cult Leader]

At the highest level we are all one

I thought you were Greyfox for a second. ;)

Damn this stuff is deep. As much as I believe Buddhists have it right and the true path is sitting on the floor watching your breath, I would way rather live my life having fun. Maybe try that when I get old.

[The Jitterskull]

I thought you were Greyfox for a second. ;)

Damn this stuff is deep. As much as I believe Buddhists have it right and the true path is sitting on the floor watching your breath, I would way rather live my life having fun. Maybe try that when I get old.

You should live however you want to :)
This is your life to experience, and every moment you exist on this planet (especially this one...) is like passing a test constantly with flying colors.

If anything, always do what makes you feel happy.

[Nachismo]

"It so happens that what is "right" or "good" parallels natural law, in that that which creates unity/love/virtue helps all while that that does not, hurts all because the universe is an irreconcilably connected place. "Purpose" boils down to the choices you have between right and wrong, because those choices naturally parallel the very nature of the universe.

"I need to define "good" and "bad" even if I say I can't." - TruthWielder

When confronted with a choice you can weigh the percieved pleasure against the pain that you experiance after the fact if you used poor judgement. Cultivating virtue in your decisions by having a ideal for all things good reflected by the decisions you make is very pleasurable, as it builds confidence in ones actions....

When dealing with these things it's important to remember everyone is at liberty to rule their own minds progressively at their own pace. In this game, we are all forced to play we win and lose, each and every day. After each bad experiance, we can try again, but until we realize which rules we play by
we are unable to enjoy it properly.

The only way to learn the rules of the game is to pay attention completely to it, always with the aim to be the best player. Take the controls completely and listen and watch carefully. This can never be mastered, only refined to sharper and sharper degrees.

So when you play, just do your honest best using all of your skills, aiming higher as you play. Only play against yourself in complete honesty, and things really start to happen. People who play like this will never get tired of playing.

[Rizzo in a box]

As one last reply to all of this, I'll post a quote from memory which summarizes everything I was trying to say:

"Even with the wrong means, the right person can triumph. But even the best means will not help the wrong person."

[The Jitterskull]

But even the best means will not help the wrong person."

This is probably the best advice of people who want to change a negative entity to a positive entity.

[Rizzo in a box]

This is probably the best advice of people who want to change a negative entity to a positive entity.

That statement doesn't have any advice. It's just a general statement regarding the differences in causality regarding certain people.

The FIRST post was advice.

[The Jitterskull]

As one last reply to all of this, "

That statement doesn't have any advice. It's just a general statement regarding the differences in causality regarding certain people.

The FIRST post was advice.

See I knew you'd lie.
Anyways, it's advice whether you like it or not. Feel free to post a second time after your last time.
Your first post had various forms of positive advice laced with 'a sad attempt at trolling'.

[Rizzo in a box]

See I knew you'd lie.
Anyways, it's advice whether you like it or not. Feel free to post a second time after your last time.
Your first post had various forms of positive advice laced with 'a sad attempt at trolling'.

I was hoping you'd say that, because now I have an excuse to post part of another piece of mine (isn't it fun to quote yourself?):

"People with a mundane mind might see the existence of two contradictory facts, statements, or relevant values as proof positive that one or the other must be false. What error! What folly!"

You're still only looking at my words as a bunch of verbs, nouns, and adjectives strung together. Look beneath, to what I'm saying.

Do you get it now?

No?

[Joe Camel]

We need more posts like this.

[The Jitterskull]

I was hoping you'd say that, because now I have an excuse to post part of another piece of mine (isn't it fun to quote yourself?):

"People with a mundane mind might see the existence of two contradictory facts, statements, or relevant values as proof positive that one or the other must be false. What error! What folly!"

You're still only looking at my words as a bunch of verbs, nouns, and adjectives strung together. Look beneath, to what I'm saying.

Do you get it now?

No?

I'll be honest I didn't read what you wrote, I just read the first sentence to respond "Yes I enjoy quoting myself"

[Kilyke]

When confronted with a choice you can weigh the percieved pleasure against the pain
that you experience after the fact if you used poor judgement.

How does one do this? Given that the pain you will actually experience cannot be known when making decisions, do you mean "perceived" or "anticipated" pain? And isn't this what we all do anyway?



Cultivating virtue in your decisions by having an ideal for all things good reflected by the decisions you make is very pleasurable, as it builds confidence in ones actions....


Is this ideal purely subjective?


When dealing with these things it's important to remember everyone is at liberty to rule their own minds progressively at their own pace.


yes indeed.


In this game, we are all forced to play we win and lose, each and every day. After each bad experiance, we can try again, but until we realize which rules we play by
we are unable to enjoy it properly.


Learning how to play a game doesn't necessarily make me enjoy it more... in many cases it does, but in some its merely frustrating to try to learn how to play when I was content merely watching the players competing against one another.

I understand that its just a metaphor, but I think my observation crosses over to life too. A lot of times it doesn't really help to have a deeper understanding of an issue if you can't do anything about it. Maybe understanding helps make you a better player, but there's many times where that understanding alone doesn't cut it. You need skill, you need technique.

But then I'm kind of missing the bigger picture, the idea that its your skill, as a player, that you're trying to improve, not just your position on the board.

How this is done I do not know.


The only way to learn the rules of the game is to pay attention completely to it, always with the aim to be the best player. Take the controls completely and listen and watch carefully. This can never be mastered, only refined to sharper and sharper degrees.

So when you play, just do your honest best using all of your skills, aiming higher as you play. Only play against yourself in complete honesty, and things really start to happen. People who play like this will never get tired of playing.

"Only play against yourself in complete honesty" ... the way we measure our progress in life is by competing against other people, (or images and ideals projected by others) and we do that honestly enough.

The person who is an exception to all of this is rare.... although... we all have some exceptions in our daily life. But I hardly think it possible to not use others, at the very least as measuring sticks.

We do the best we can and according to our code of ethics we either regret or rejoice our decisions. Then afterwards, I sneak a little self-improvement pep in there, which says that life is not about its destinations. Its an old idea, an overused one too. But the human mind is focused on destinations and cannot see but to see them in everything, even people. To us, the ends justify the means, which is why nothing can help us.

Except, of course, giving up the ghost and simply playing the game.

I mean, I agree and I disagree with Rizzo...and I agree and disagree with Nachismo.

[Nachismo]

When people make choices they need to weigh decisions carefully. The percieved pleasure are the imagined benefits of taking that course of action. The pain is a negative outcome of the decision after the fact. People can imagine the possible pain before making the decision, but the only usefull peice of information is what is experiancied afterwards. Pain trys prevent people from using their creativity to tackle problems from outside of the box.

Most people percieve a greater pain then is physically felt becuase for them it becomes an emotion instead of remaining a feeling experianced thru the 5 senses. Learning to get better dealing with the actual pain, using a constructive approach is good experiance no matter what is thrown at you. Most people doen't take the time to remember and analyse what happened clearly, even after the emotion has left. They just try to forget....

After thinking over things, next turn to your heart and note the difference in what you feel when consider different possiblities. This is intuitive and becomes easier with practice. Check if it feels good.

Cultivating virtue in my experiance has had positive objective results. I know thru constant errors before trying it out that God willingly, virtue reduces the obtacles in ones path. Virtue builds the will....

In my opinion God doesn't play favorites. The same rules equally apply to everyone. When somebody is "watching" they aren't in control of the action.
When they are "playing", people become better thru experiance. The only things that last are the usefull ones.

If you learn the habit of patiently trying to build up understanding, thru much trail and error it becomes easier to objectively examine the similarities in different situations. You are investigating the ideas behind why things happened the way they did internally, and externally including mystery.

Comparing progress against others gives a rough idea of where you should be, however envy is fruitless, and ultimately you are the only one responsible for your progress. This can only be done by comparing your actual efforts against what you could reasonably carry out in the given set of circumstances. The more the two are aligned the easier it is to push for just a little extra the next time.

The rules are the same for everyone and there are no exceptions. Nobody can do this perfectly. These are simply a suggestion to try to differentiate and improve ones ability to play the game.Who can stop you from looking at it from this perspective?The people that choose to move forward do so in infinetely small steps. You can get better at doing things even if it seems really minor. Every avalanche starts with single snowflakes.

By playing honestly against yourself I mean that one should be dead honest about why they do things the way they do, and what is motivating them. If you are not true to your code of ethics, those same ethics will hamper your progress until they are transformed or you are forced to obey. Your code of ethics is not what you like to think about what you do. It is what that truth means to you in the deepest recesses of your being. It can not be cheated.

Ends cannot justify the means. The truth is that one's only choice is to unite the right means with honest intentions. The only end for sure is the end God wants.

[Rizzo in a box]

You can't talk about the Truth. You can only be it.