Who DOENST want terrorists tortured??

[Captain Politik]

What the fuck is going on in america??? People are complaining and seriously considering PRESSING CHARGES agasint people who tortured TERRORISTS???

Can anyone here really tell me that they dont want a fucking raghead from the middle east tortured who was a terrorist?

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that

FUCK those dirty muslims. It is just crazy how far its gone BECAUSE TERRORISTS WERE TORTURED.. NO NOT FUCKING INNOCENT PEOPLE BUT DIRTY FUCKING TERRORIST MUSLIMS.

anyone else feel the same way

[Dichromate]

I hope to god that you're for real and not trolling.
It would make my day.

[P_R_Deltoid]

What the fuck is going on in america??? People are complaining and seriously considering PRESSING CHARGES agasint people who tortured TERRORISTS???

Can anyone here really tell me that they dont want a fucking raghead from the middle east tortured who was a terrorist?

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that

FUCK those dirty muslims. It is just crazy how far its gone BECAUSE TERRORISTS WERE TORTURED.. NO NOT FUCKING INNOCENT PEOPLE BUT DIRTY FUCKING TERRORIST MUSLIMS.

anyone else feel the same way

You look like a well informed, non-bias American!

[Aperson444]

It's so funny. Everyone blames the Muslims... but in reality, throughout history.... Muslims have been killed by Zionists, Christians, all of those bitches.

[Thought Riot]

I think the real problem is that we aren't even torturing terrorists. Less than 10% of captives are actually taken by Coalition forces. The rest are turned over by warlords and the Pakistanis for bounties. We're torturing all prisoners without any evidence of guilt or reasonable proof that they might have intel. Hell, most torturing is to just try to get confessions so that units can report that they captured 80 people this month and 98% of them were terrorists!

I have no problem with using any techniques to pump terrorists for information if it gets us good intelligence. However, only the upper level people in terrorists actually have any decent information. Right now, we're torturing anyone who we capture. That's a problem IMO. Torturing innocents isn't right just because they so happen to be arab and in the wrong place.

[slm33d]

Lol who doenst

[Idiot]

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth
Not true, read the Koran. If anything it sends off a strong anti-Jewish vibe, more than anti-Christian. The Koran and the Holy Bible both preach respecting thy neighbor. So if there is a small group of radicals wishing death upon the Christian world, then I guess we can call it even for all the crusades Christian kingdoms have waged on them.


2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

Yes the fact that they PURPOSELY target civilians as opposed to our military accidentally killing them, but this still does not warrant torture.


3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that
That is an extreme. When you say that you are speaking for a very large group of people. Also, you are intensifying the situation, by creating an "US OR THEM" mentality. Most people, just want to have a nice colored TV and watch their kids grow up.

FUCK those dirty muslims. It is just crazy how far its gone BECAUSE TERRORISTS WERE TORTURED.. NO NOT FUCKING INNOCENT PEOPLE BUT DIRTY FUCKING TERRORIST MUSLIMS.

Fuck those dirty Muslims is a real slam to entire body of people. A few Catholic priest molest little boys every now and then, but does that mean all of Catholicism is bad and the Pope is evil? With a statement like that you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Torture is a crude and barbaric method for getting information. Furthermore, it can always be argued, that some of the people being tortured are actually innocent. People will say anything when tortured, point and case:The Spanish Inquisition.

Also, you create a more extreme enemy when you encourage torture. Some of the most barbaric fighting the world has ever seen was between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during WW2. When one side starts breaking the rules, the other side will follow suit. Both sides were fighting to the death, because they knew if they were captured, labor camps and firing squads are all that awaited them. We would be playing into the terrorists' hands if we decided that they were not worthy of the same trials and hearings every other enemy combatant is worthy of.

If America supports torture, we will be like Animal Farm and you will no longer be able to tell who the men and who the pigs are. It is a slippery slope.

[diamonddogg]

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that
anyone else feel the same way
Are you a muslim?Can you speak on behalf of all muslims worldwide and talk about what their religion tells them to do or what they would do?Do you even know the history of Islam and how they controlled spain, and how spain had christains,jews and muslims living and working in it, they couldve killed off non muslims then why didnt they??

[Vargus]

What the fuck is going on in america??? People are complaining and seriously considering PRESSING CHARGES agasint people who tortured TERRORISTS???

Their word is as good as mine until tried by some sort of court. Hardly any have had military tribunals, let alone federal court hearings and you are so quick to call them terrorists? Why don't I just get the ball rolling and strap you to a dunking chair?

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth

Judaism calls for the stoning of sundry sinners.

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

No, the guys who are actually responsible are 1) dead, 2) in custody, or 3) have effectively been let free by the incompetence of the previous administration's childish infighting.

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that

Are you powerless to defend yourself? Do you need a big brother to watch your back? I don't.

Get fucked.

[Animal Farm Pig]

I'm against it.

It's morally reprehensible because it's dehumanizing to the one who is tortured and the one who is doing the torture. We should work towards a world in which all can thrive and live a life of dignity and fulfillment. Rather than torturing, we should find out why someone became a terrorist and work to solve the very real issues that lead to terrorism (oppression, alienation, etc.)

To do so will be much more difficult than just torturing and imprisoning people, but if we start from the point of understanding and working together to create a better world, the world will be a better place.

Of course, sometimes it's not going to work. Some individuals are simply enemies of the people. In that case, we still shouldn't torture. Just put them against the wall and shoot them. At least they'll die with some dignity.

[Dichromate]

It's so funny. Everyone blames the Muslims... but in reality, throughout history.... Muslims have been killed by Zionists, Christians, all of those bitches.

Congrads on being as big a moron as the thread starter.
learn2history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

They didn't spread across the middle east, North Africa and Iberia by singing Kum-By-Yah.

as far as the crusades are concerned, well.... they started it.
It took a few hundred years of Islamic conquests before the pope and Christendom as a whole did shit - talk about turning the other cheek.

also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_wars_in_Europe

[Mantikore]

An execution is much more cheap than torture. Torture is used as a means to extract intelligence.

but then again, theres always the slippery slope argument

[Snoopy]

Because civilized people have to uphold their values, even in times of war. I know that this gives them a weakness, but how else can they spread their values if they don't live by them? By torturing people, you become a terrorist yourself. Unless no one knows about it...

America is not really good at keeping people from knowing about it... :o

[Slapshot]

Can you speak on behalf of all muslims worldwide and talk about what their religion tells them to do or what they would do?

There are plenty of muslims who claim to speak on behalf of all muslims worldwide, and they do horrible things in the name of Islam. Where is the outrage? He was just regurgitating the shit those scumbags chant over and over about infidels.

You chose to single out somebody who has done nothing in the name of Islam instead of the animals who do. Fuck you.

[jeosan]

Me...

[a giant pterodactyl]

It's so funny. Everyone blames the Muslims... but in reality, throughout history.... Muslims have been killed by Zionists, Christians, all of those bitches.

and they need to be killed again and again until they are gone. then they can all play WoW IN ALLAH LAND WITH THERE 72 VIRGINS

terrorist world wide MUST be tortured at any given time. its how we extract info from the,

[Chinese Food52]

There are plenty of muslims who claim to speak on behalf of all muslims worldwide, and they do horrible things in the name of Islam. Where is the outrage? He was just regurgitating the shit those scumbags chant over and over about infidels.

You chose to single out somebody who has done nothing in the name of Islam instead of the animals who do. Fuck you.

That's because those 'animals' make up not even 1 percent of the Muslim population idiot.

And those 'terrorists' came about because of Western rape of their land for the past half decade. People become desperate when they feel they are getting screwed.

[Slapshot]

That's because those 'animals' make up not even 1 percent of the Muslim population idiot.

And those 'terrorists' came about because of Western rape of their land for the past half decade. People become desperate when they feel they are getting screwed.

Neither of those arguments justifies the carnage done by self-proclaimed muslims in the name of Islam, for which you should be doubly horrified as you are at the anti-muslim sentiment it generates.

[ArmsMerchant]

It's so funny. Everyone blames the Muslims... but in reality, throughout history.... Muslims have been killed by Zionists, Christians, all of those bitches.

Precisely--one reason some Muslims (NOT ALL OF THEM) hate Christians is because of the slaughter at the seige of Jerusalem.

OP would be well advised to 1) learn some history, and 2) transcend his fear.

[SHH]

I'd prefer if they were let out and could continue killing Americans and Brits.

[puzld]

I agree that terrorists should be tortuted -- in particular, Ron Paul supporters, defenders of the Constitution and Iraq War veterans. And especially those domestic terrorists who have the silly "Don't Treat on Me" bumper stickers.

[pengd0t]

Can anyone here really tell me that they dont want a fucking raghead from the middle east tortured who was a terrorist?
I don't want anyone to be tortured, and "terrorist" isn't a good description of all the sorts of people who were taken to Guantanamo.

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth
The Arabic term "Islam" itself (إسلام) is usually translated as "submission"; submission of desires to the will of God. It comes from the term aslama, which means "to surrender" or "resign oneself".

L. Gardet; J. Jomier. "Islam". Encyclopaedia of Islam Online. ; "Lane's lexicon"
PDF: http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000137.pdf

---

The Arabic word salaam (سلام) ("peace") has the same root as the word Islam. One Islamic interpretation is that individual personal peace is attained by utterly submitting to Allah. The greeting "Salaam alaykum", favoured by Muslims, has the literal meaning "Peace be with you". Muhammad is reported to have said once, "Mankind are the dependents, or family of God, and the most beloved of them to God are those who are the most excellent to His dependents." "Not one of you believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." Great Muslim scholars of prophetic tradition such as Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani and Sharafuddin al Nawawi have said that the words ‘his brother’ mean any person irrespective of faith.

"Islam". Online Etymology Dictionary.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=islam&searchmode=none

---

In his Last Sermon, the Prophet Muhammad admonished believers:

* "Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you."

* “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.”

* "Seek for mankind that of which you are desirous for yourself, that you may be a believer; treat well as a neighbor the one who lives near you, that you may be a Muslim [one who submits to God]."

* “That which you want for yourself, seek for mankind.”

* "The most righteous of men is the one who is glad that men should have what is pleasing to himself, and who dislikes for them what is for him disagreeable."

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans
"They?" Who Muslims?
So have Christians. And Jews. And everyone else...
Because religious background doesn't really matter. There are always radical fundamentalists who will employ whatever is useful to manipulate people... particularly the extremely poor who are living lives without any hope for anything better.

Americans' lives aren't worth more than others, and even if they were, it wouldn't be at this exchange rate:
9/11 deaths: 2,974 (though that includes citizens of other countries as well)
Civilians killed in Afghanistan: 10,960 - 30,557
Civilians killed in Iraq: 91,926 - 100,351

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that
See #1. It still applies. You're still wrong.

FUCK those dirty muslims. It is just crazy how far its gone BECAUSE TERRORISTS WERE TORTURED.. NO NOT FUCKING INNOCENT PEOPLE BUT DIRTY FUCKING TERRORIST MUSLIMS.
I'm glad that even those who are actually in the U.S. military in the middle east don't think such ridiculous things... at least from my experience anyway, I'm sure there are dumbasses everywhere.

[Dog]

I think it's good that we are denouncing torture as long as it's still on the table behind closed doors. It's easy for hippies to preach non-violence from the safety of their own homes, but in the real world, there are people who simply will not talk unless they are tortured.

[Dog]

On the topic of Islam: Mohammad was a pedophile, mysogynist, racist, rapist, terrorist and murderer. That's history. When the religion's biggest prophet was worse than Osama Bin Laden, is it really a surprise that there are terrorists?

And that's not even getting into all of the shit in the Koran and Haddith...

That's not to say that Christianity can't be used as justification for bad stuff, because it has, is, and probably always will be. The difference, however, is that it doesn't take any delusion to interpret Islam's teachings as promoting terrorism, violence, and oppression.

[Slapshot]

Precisely--one reason some Muslims (NOT ALL OF THEM) hate Christians is because of the slaughter at the seige of Jerusalem.

OP would be well advised to 1) learn some history, and 2) transcend his fear.

Slaughter is so passe these days, perhaps you could use more politically correct terminology, such as "flew a jumbo jet into a skyscraper full of innocent civilians" or such.

I know, I know, we're all pre-occupied with the seige of Jerusalem and all, but seriously...

[ArmsMerchant]

I think it's good that we are denouncing torture as long as it's still on the table behind closed doors. It's easy for hippies to preach non-violence from the safety of their own homes, but in the real world, there are people who simply will not talk unless they are tortured.

And thery will say ANYTHING, which is why torture doesn't work.

That aside, torture is morally evil. We're supposed to be the good guys.

[Dog]

And they will say ANYTHING, which is why torture doesn't work.


That's not true. Torturing people who don't have any info will obviously produce false confessions and fake information. People have twisted that tidbit around to mean that torturing people who DO have info is useless, which it isn't.

As for the "morally evil" part...I don't see how hurting one person to save his many victims is morally wrong.

[pengd0t]

I think it's good that we are denouncing torture as long as it's still on the table behind closed doors. It's easy for hippies to preach non-violence from the safety of their own homes, but in the real world, there are people who simply will not talk unless they are tortured.

Though I could see where that could be true, it's not really what the CIA found when they did it...

On the topic of Islam: Mohammad was a pedophile, mysogynist, racist, rapist, terrorist and murderer. That's history. When the religion's biggest prophet was worse than Osama Bin Laden, is it really a surprise that there are terrorists?

On the topic of Christianity: Yahweh was a pedophile, mysogynist, racist, rapist, terrorist and murderer. That's mythology. When the religion's biggest deity was worse than Osama Bin Laden, is it really a surprise that there are Christian fundamentalists willing do wipe out another religion with no good reason?

That's not true. Torturing people who don't have any info will obviously produce false confessions and fake information. People have twisted that tidbit around to mean that torturing people who DO have info is useless, which it isn't.

As for the "morally evil" part...I don't see how hurting one person to save his many victims is morally wrong.

I don't imagine it would ALL be useless information, but you'd certainly have to torture a lot of others to corroborate that kind of information. If you're torturing someone, I think it's natural to suspect that he might not be feeling friendly and helpful when he tells you something.

What about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who was waterboarded 183 times in March of '03. Now they're saying that all the good information they got from him, they got by being civil to him and developing a good relationship. They got nothing really useful once they began to torture him. Considering that it's not unlikely that he knew about upcoming Madrid bombings or the London Bombings. If the CIA hadn't been started torturing him, he might have kept giving useful information and prevented more terrorist acts.

[Dog]

On the topic of Christianity: Yahweh was a pedophile, mysogynist, racist, rapist, terrorist and murderer. That's mythology. When the religion's biggest deity was worse than Osama Bin Laden, is it really a surprise that there are Christian fundamentalists willing do wipe out another religion with no good reason?

Lulz. Christianity's God isn't a pedophile, racist, rapist, mysogynist, or terrorist. Murderer is pretty much the only one you got, and you could say he's a bit of sexist.

And while it's a given that the Christian god is cruel, apparently you forgot the peace-loving hippie prophet of the religion named Jesus.

[nutsack]

Calling someone a 'terrorist' is subjective. Today to the average idiot American it means anyone against the US government. I don't want anyone like that tortured.

US government uses terrorism

[Paragon]

It's so funny. Everyone blames the Muslims... but in reality, throughout history.... Muslims have been killed by Zionists, Christians, all of those bitches.

Throughout the majority of history; yes. Today, the Muslims do most of the killing.

[Slapshot]

Calling someone a 'terrorist' is subjective. Today to the average idiot American it means anyone against the US government. I don't want anyone like that tortured.

US government uses terrorism

Seperate US citizen from American government, lest you emulate that which you denounce by using bigotry to condemn an entire nation of people.

[nutsack]

Seperate US citizen from American government, lest you emulate that which you denounce by using bigotry to condemn an entire nation of people.

Don't worry, I do. I plan to visit America.

[Slapshot]

Don't worry, I do. I plan to visit America.

Watch out for niggers ;)

[nutsack]

Watch out for niggers ;)

You'd be surprised how much the niggers are emulated in other countries

[pengd0t]

Lulz. Christianity's God isn't a pedophile, racist, rapist, mysogynist, or terrorist. Murderer is pretty much the only one you got, and you could say he's a bit of sexist.


Perhaps pedophile is a stretch, but only a small one considering the only human Yahweh is known to have impregnated in the canonized books was probably from 12-14. So if she must have been prepubescent for it to count, then it could go either way...

Not a rascist?
For one thing, to even pick out one race of people as "god's chosen people" is starting off with racial prejudice... but that's not such a big deal when compared to this sort of stuff that goes on all through the Old Testament:

Genesis 9:18-29

The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth. Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers." He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth ; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave." After the flood Noah lived 350 years. Altogether, Noah lived 950 years, and then he died.


Exodus 17:14-16

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven." Moses built an altar and called it The LORD is my Banner. He said, "For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation."

Deuteronomy 25:17-19

Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget!

1 Samuel 15:2-9

This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword. But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.


As for mysogany, I was really only referring to the sexism. I didn't happen to know what it was about the story of Mohammed that showed that he actually hated women, so I assumed you were just stretching sexism a bit far too. So I left that one in.

And murderer is being pretty lenient... though I'll accept it because "genocider" sounds ridiculous. ;)

And while it's a given that the Christian god is cruel, apparently you forgot the peace-loving hippie prophet of the religion named Jesus.
In my experiences, Jesus's hippy teachings have nothing to do with all the murder that's gone on in the name of Christianity, and very little to do with what's taught in modern Christian churches. So you'll have to forgive me if I forget about that guy every now and then...

[Dichromate]

Throughout the majority of history; yes. Today, the Muslims do most of the killing.

oh for fucks sake. that is an utter inversion of reality.

[nutsack]

In my experiences, Jesus's hippy teachings have nothing to do with all the murder that's gone on in the name of Christianity, and very little to do with what's taught in modern Christian churches. So you'll have to forgive me if I forget about that guy every now and then...

Fuck most churches, but Jesus's hippy teachings hit the nail on the head. As did the teachings of several others in history such as the Buddha. Oldschool religions are outdated as fuck. They do still contain the right messages within all the bullshit though and are probably still right for some people, but should eventually be phased out if the population ever starts to evolve.

[Fza]

It's so funny. Everyone blames the Muslims... but in reality, throughout history.... Muslims have been killed by Zionists, Christians, all of those bitches.

Which is also bullshit. How did the Islam spread thoughout the world? Through force, just like christianity. And we should also note that muslims tried to invade europe on several occasions, before the crusades were launched even.

But every religion has blood on it's hands and I despise them all.

And the OP is an idiot.

[Slapshot]

In my experiences, Jesus's hippy teachings have nothing to do with all the murder that's gone on in the name of Christianity, and very little to do with what's taught in modern Christian churches. So you'll have to forgive me if I forget about that guy every now and then...

Well, it's very reassuring that you forgot about his "hippy" teachings in favor of humanity's lessons in intolerance and murder. I can't even begin to tell you how awesome that is.... woohooo.

Oh, my bad... I didn't realize that you were trying to be sarcastic.

[DJ Meaty Cheeks]

I say we end this retarded thread by subjecting everyone of any religion to some good old fashioned Inquisition style torture. Strictly for the lulz.

[Slapshot]

I say we end this retarded thread by subjecting everyone of any religion to some good old fashioned Inquisition style torture. Strictly for the lulz.

I call the Iron Maiden *air guitar*

[Dichromate]

Which is also bullshit. How did the Islam spread thoughout the world? Through force, just like christianity. And we should also note that muslims tried to invade europe on several occasions, before the crusades were launched even.

But every religion has blood on it's hands and I despise them all.

And the OP is an idiot.
on muslims in europe:
Viva la reconquista!

on the spread of christianity though:
To be fair, while the spread of Christianity in all of Africa bar Ethiopia (Christianity there predates Christianity in most of Europe!) and pretty much all of south America is tied to colonialism therefore to force, Christianity got its hold in Europe originally through the Christianization of the already existing Roman empire.

What would generally happen after that though was that rulers would convert and over time drag their people with them – Scandinavian countries being the case in point. Missionary shit also happened as well of course, but they went first and formost for the rulers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization#Late_Antiquity_.284th-6th_centuries.29

“Unlike the history of Christianity in the Roman Empire, conversion of the West and East Germanic tribes took place "top to bottom", in the sense that missionaries aimed at converting Germanic nobility first, which would then impose their new faith on the general population.”

Thing was it took centuries for the peasantry to convert.
The fact that the christianization of Europe was so gradual is why it absorbed so many pagan holidays, festivals, and even sacred sites.

[Slapshot]

on muslims in europe:
Viva la reconquista!

on the spread of christianity though:
To be fair, while the spread of Christianity in all of Africa bar Ethiopia (Christianity there predates Christianity in most of Europe!) and pretty much all of south America is tied to colonialism therefore to force, Christianity got its hold in Europe originally through the Christianization of the already existing Roman empire.

What would generally happen after that though was that rulers would convert and over time drag their people with them – Scandinavian countries being the case in point. Missionary shit also happened as well of course, but they went first and formost for the rulers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization#Late_Antiquity_.284th-6th_centuries.29



Thing was it took centuries for the peasantry to convert.
The fact that the christianization of Europe was so gradual is why it absorbed so many pagan holidays, festivals, and even sacred sites.

Point is? You speak as if pagan holidays and festivals are a bad thing. You should see my Christmas trees and Easter eggs, they would make a pagan jealous with rage.

[Dichromate]

Point is? You speak as if pagan holidays and festivals are a bad thing. You should see my Christmas trees and Easter eggs, they would make a pagan jealous with rage.

I never said they're a bad thing (or a good thing).

[Rust]

People have twisted that tidbit around to mean that torturing people who DO have info is useless, which it isn't.

They aren't twisting around anything. Not only is it hard to really know if someone else does have the information you're looking for, but they can still lie and give you false information to make the torturing stop while you go on a wild goose-chase.

There's a reason those people were tortures so many times in a single month...

Could it potentially give you good information? Sure. Just as not torturing can.

[diamonddogg]

On the topic of Islam: Mohammad was a pedophile, mysogynist, racist, rapist, terrorist and murderer. That's history. When the religion's biggest prophet was worse than Osama Bin Laden, is it really a surprise that there are terrorists?

And that's not even getting into all of the shit in the Koran and Haddith...

That's not to say that Christianity can't be used as justification for bad stuff, because it has, is, and probably always will be. The difference, however, is that it doesn't take any delusion to interpret Islam's teachings as promoting terrorism, violence, and oppression.
Jewish zionist dog alert

[nutsack]

On the topic of Islam: Mohammad was a pedophile, mysogynist, racist, rapist, terrorist and murderer. That's history. When the religion's biggest prophet was worse than Osama Bin Laden, is it really a surprise that there are terrorists?

And that's not even getting into all of the shit in the Koran and Haddith...

That's not to say that Christianity can't be used as justification for bad stuff, because it has, is, and probably always will be. The difference, however, is that it doesn't take any delusion to interpret Islam's teachings as promoting terrorism, violence, and oppression.

:facepalm:

[Dichromate]

Jewish zionist dog alert

Sand-nigger alert.

[Fza]

on muslims in europe:
Viva la reconquista!

on the spread of christianity though:
To be fair, while the spread of Christianity in all of Africa bar Ethiopia (Christianity there predates Christianity in most of Europe!) and pretty much all of south America is tied to colonialism therefore to force, Christianity got its hold in Europe originally through the Christianization of the already existing Roman empire.

What would generally happen after that though was that rulers would convert and over time drag their people with them – Scandinavian countries being the case in point. Missionary shit also happened as well of course, but they went first and formost for the rulers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization#Late_Antiquity_.284th-6th_centuries.29



Thing was it took centuries for the peasantry to convert.
The fact that the christianization of Europe was so gradual is why it absorbed so many pagan holidays, festivals, and even sacred sites.

I recall that the grandfather (or the father) of Charlemagne giving his subjects two choices, death or christianity.

You're acting like the rulers didn't use force which is bullshit in my opinion. Despite valiant efforts of kings like Radboud those faggots won.

What you point out is a fact most people don't know. Most people (in europe) weren't christian in the middle ages. Seems like people then were a lot smarter than most people think.

[Rolf]

Rolf doesn't want terrorists tortured.

Rolf says terrorists, like any other warrior, should meet their end on the battlefield.

[diamonddogg]

Sand-nigger alert. lol u wish
when you see someone critisizing christianity and islam what else is he guna be??buddhist?

[diamonddogg]

BTW do you fuck your sister in the trailer or the back of the pickup truck, or should i say ute

[Fza]

You realise that when you type like that everyone thinks you're a complete dumb ass right?

[Irukanji]

I approve of this thread.

Let the bastards get tortured. But how can you call water boarding torture.....it only affect's the mind. Best way to get information out of them is to break their fingers/hands/arms etc until they talk. Maybe use a grinder to make alot of small cuts all over their body, then spray a saturated salt solution on them. I dunno, people get creative after a while.

[ZeroMalarki]

What the fuck is going on in america??? People are complaining and seriously considering PRESSING CHARGES agasint people who tortured TERRORISTS???

Can anyone here really tell me that they dont want a fucking raghead from the middle east tortured who was a terrorist?

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that

FUCK those dirty muslims. It is just crazy how far its gone BECAUSE TERRORISTS WERE TORTURED.. NO NOT FUCKING INNOCENT PEOPLE BUT DIRTY FUCKING TERRORIST MUSLIMS.

anyone else feel the same way

1) Let me see that Qu'ran verse

2) The US military in its long industrious career has caused the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians over the world (though you can argue has saved many), are you going to call for the deaths of those soldiers responsible?

3) Not all of these people were terrorists, it's been proven there were a fair few who were captured for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Is it fair to torture them because you've captured them?


I'm all for torture if it has any beneficial effect and actually manages to aid intelligence that saves lives. Unfortunately, it's more likely a man being interrogated and tortured will only divulge what he believes his captor wants to hear. There are more effective methods, such as working with the captive, building up rapport etc.

[Irukanji]

then I guess we can call it even for all the crusades Christian kingdoms have waged on them.

What the christians did 1000 years ago doesnt warrant what the muslims are doing now. The christians merely had the right idea before the muslims did.


Yes the fact that they PURPOSELY target civilians as opposed to our military accidentally killing them, but this still does not warrant torture.

The way i see it, is they broke international law FIRST. We merely stepped in and intervened in the matter. Us breaking a few human rights in exchange for us saving a few thousand seems like a fair trade. If they didnt save you, you would complain. When they try to, you complain. Might aswell get some information out of them aswell.


Fuck those dirty Muslims is a real slam to entire body of people. A few Catholic priest molest little boys every now and then, but does that mean all of Catholicism is bad and the Pope is evil? With a statement like that you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Anyone who has a religion is labeled evil. Both sides have done wrong things, get over it already. They both massacred each other in the name of their god, of their martyr's, etc

Torture is a crude and barbaric method for getting information. Furthermore, it can always be argued, that some of the people being tortured are actually innocent. People will say anything when tortured, point and case:The Spanish Inquisition.

But torture is effective in those who actually have information. If it leads to the capture of someone with information, then it is worth it. A few people who claim to be non-combatants yet wont even turn their next door neighbour in who IS a combatant makes him a direct non-combatant but still assisting in the "war".

Also, you create a more extreme enemy when you encourage torture. Some of the most barbaric fighting the world has ever seen was between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during WW2. When one side starts breaking the rules, the other side will follow suit. Both sides were fighting to the death, because they knew if they were captured, labor camps and firing squads are all that awaited them. We would be playing into the terrorists' hands if we decided that they were not worthy of the same trials and hearings every other enemy combatant is worthy of.

And they knew that the faster they kill them bastards, the faster they can go home and get out of that fucking Russian winter. I think more died from starvation and hypothermia then from actuall fighting.

If America supports torture, we will be like Animal Farm and you will no longer be able to tell who the men and who the pigs are. It is a slippery slope.

They always have, they always will. Like i said before, if you need to ruin 1000 enemy lives to save 1000 of your own, it's worth it.

[Fza]

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.

[diamonddogg]

You realise that when you type like that everyone thinks you're a complete dumb ass right?
No but thanks for informing me,ill be careful what i type next time

[Thought Riot]

I approve of this thread.

Let the bastards get tortured. But how can you call water boarding torture.....it only affect's the mind. Best way to get information out of them is to break their fingers/hands/arms etc until they talk. Maybe use a grinder to make alot of small cuts all over their body, then spray a saturated salt solution on them. I dunno, people get creative after a while.

Because we executed Japanese officers who waterboarded American troops during WWII under the Geneva Convention. Anyone who says that waterboarding isn't torturing should man up and experience it.

[Aperson444]

During the Crusades, thousands of them were killed by terrorists.

In modern day, Israel is massacring Palestinians.

Those conquests were like any other. The Caliphate was like the Mongols, yet, do we persecute Mongolians for this? Do we say that all Turkic people are barbaric murderers?

The Koran WELCOMED Christianity as a religion of the house. Muhammad's followers seeked refuge with the Abyssinian Christians, who welcomed them. The Caliphates are not any excuse to say that Muslims are murders. They were like most civilizations of the day.

Why the hell are you saying all muslims are terrorists. If anyone, Israel broke international law, sparking all of those palestinian "terrorist" factions.

[Captain Politik]

my god how some of you are pussies.

Every single terrorist should be tortured to death period.

I dont givea fuck if some ppl arnt terrorists as long as information is gathered.

God damn you fucking brainwashed pussies piss me off

[Aperson444]

Well then I should be able to torture every single bastard CEO, because I think they are wrong right? I can get some info out of them.

well then, why don't ALL countries start torturing soldiers for intel. Hell, why doesn't the Taliban start massively kidnapping US forces and waterboarding them to death. Hell, I should put that in their suggestion box.

[yawanur]

Torture is a crude and barbaric method for getting information. Furthermore, it can always be argued, that some of the people being tortured are actually innocent. People will say anything when tortured, point and case:The Spanish Inquisition.

Crude, barbaric, and often ineffective!

[Captain Politik]

Well then I should be able to torture every single bastard CEO, because I think they are wrong right? I can get some info out of them.

well then, why don't ALL countries start torturing soldiers for intel. Hell, why doesn't the Taliban start massively kidnapping US forces and waterboarding them to death. Hell, I should put that in their suggestion box.


HA its funny how obama has brainwashed you into thinking that the rich in america are to blame

You fucking retard those CEO's are the smartest people in america and helped grow every single buisness. Not only do the majority of taxdollars come form the rich they are what you wish you were you fucking pathetic fuck

[Thought Riot]

HA its funny how obama has brainwashed you into thinking that the rich in america are to blame

You fucking retard those CEO's are the smartest people in america and helped grow every single buisness. Not only do the majority of taxdollars come form the rich they are what you wish you were you fucking pathetic fuck

Then explain the $50,000,000 severence packages to CEOs who drive their companies into the ground.

[Raziel]

Depends, goverment finds it easy to call just anyone who pissed them off a terrorist.

[Crashwangdoodle]

Torture shouldnt be allowed on anyone. It doesn't even work. So...

[Vargus]

Us breaking a few human rights in exchange for us saving a few thousand seems like a fair trade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Crimes_Act_of_1996

I'll agree that it would be a fair trade if everyone associated with breaking this law were lined up and he people who they tortured were allowed to shoot them, al a firing squad.

[Nagasaki911]

truth for me is, i disapprove of blind torture. what the hippies dont really understand though is we are not torturing out of spite, we are doing it to get information so we don't have another 9/11 happen. I am all for obtaining information by any means necessary, but if it was hypothetically possible to truthfully state that we found all that a terrorist knew then torture wont get us anything anymore, so throw them in prison and lose the key

[Vargus]

truth for me is, i disapprove of blind torture. what the hippies dont really understand though is we are not torturing out of spite, we are doing it to get information so we don't have another 9/11 happen. I am all for obtaining information by any means necessary, but if it was hypothetically possible to truthfully state that we found all that a terrorist knew then torture wont get us anything anymore, so throw them in prison and lose the key

We wouldn't have had a first 9/11 if we didn't go sticking our dicks into the Middle East's business. If they want to end up like Africa, let them.

[nutsack]

We wouldn't have had a first 9/11 if we didn't go sticking our dicks into the Middle East's business. If they want to end up like Africa, let them.

Africa doesn't have all that delicious oil

Edit: Also, china is sticking it's dick deep into africa to secure resources.

[Dichromate]

Then explain the $50,000,000 severence packages to CEOs who drive their companies into the ground.

don't feed the troll

[Nagasaki911]

We wouldn't have had a first 9/11 if we didn't go sticking our dicks into the Middle East's business. If they want to end up like Africa, let them.

Have you even read the koran? they dont hate us because we are up in their shit, they hate us because we are "infidels." They need to get their shit together and come join the modern world, maybe if they ditched their bullshit sharia law their society could advance

[nutsack]

Have you even read the koran? they dont hate us because we are up in their shit, they hate us because we are "infidels." They need to get their shit together and come join the modern world, maybe if they ditched their bullshit sharia law their society could advance

Koran is a book of peace. Islamic extremists interpret it a different way then most Muslims, just the same as some Christians have used the bible to justify war and lots of bad shit. With either of these books it's easy to take small parts and use them to justify something you are doing.

[Ezratal]

What the fuck is going on in america??? People are complaining and seriously considering PRESSING CHARGES agasint people who tortured TERRORISTS???

Can anyone here really tell me that they dont want a fucking raghead from the middle east tortured who was a terrorist?

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that

FUCK those dirty muslims. It is just crazy how far its gone BECAUSE TERRORISTS WERE TORTURED.. NO NOT FUCKING INNOCENT PEOPLE BUT DIRTY FUCKING TERRORIST MUSLIMS.

anyone else feel the same way

I lol'd.

[Vargus]

Have you even read the koran? they dont hate us because we are up in their shit, they hate us because we are "infidels." They need to get their shit together and come join the modern world, maybe if they ditched their bullshit sharia law their society could advance

So what you are saying is that all Muslims want to kill me?

[JoePedo]

Who DOENST want terrorists tortured??

Yo.

The most effective method of resisting torture just happens to be the concurrently militarily useful tactic of planned disinformation. While torture has immense benefits in extracting "confessions" from the innocent, it is a direct and sizeable disadvantage in a purely military campaign.

Additionally, it allows for the lawful execution of captured US personell. This, admittedly, doesn't mean as much as it should due to the fact that we're not universally dealing with the sort of professional paramilitaries one would get from quality domestic paramilitary insurrection, but it - coupled with being a giant fucking vector for a planned disinformation campagin - makes it an absolute loss with no corresponding gain.

Now, I understand...

Can anyone here really tell me that they dont want a fucking raghead from the middle east tortured who was a terrorist?

...that you get off emotionally and/or sexually thinking of little brown men being tied down and having their balls tortured, but in the middle of a fucking war, it is time for the utilitarian perspective rather than personal gain.

Incidentally...

People are complaining and seriously considering PRESSING CHARGES agasint people who tortured TERRORISTS???

I have no idea where you got the idea that law only counts "if you feel like it." However, that is not the rule of law, but statist anarchy.

You do not want to be fighting domestic insurrections and foreign wars at the same time. It - much like looking to your personal gratification over tactical consideration - is bad tactical procedure.

[Nagasaki911]

Koran is a book of peace. Islamic extremists interpret it a different way then most Muslims, just the same as some Christians have used the bible to justify war and lots of bad shit. With either of these books it's easy to take small parts and use them to justify something you are doing.

Koran is NOT a book of peace, the first two pages talk about smiting the infidels. Have you read the koran? I have and granted it has some peaceful commentary, but the part about the fire coming down and smiting the infidels kinda negates that in my opinion. Why are you bringing up christianity i thought the discussion here was about islamofacists. Take a page out of the hadith and then come back and tell me that it is a book of peace.

[Nagasaki911]

So what you are saying is that all Muslims want to kill me?

Of course not all muslims want to kill you, because a good portion of them are somewhat decent, but while not all muslims are terrorists, almost all terrorists are muslims.

[Vargus]

Of course not all muslims want to kill you, because a good portion of them are somewhat decent, but while not all muslims are terrorists, almost all terrorists are muslims.

"No, no, no, I think there are some decent Muslims who just want to live normal lives. But, you know, you gotta keep an eye on them because their holy book says they want to kill me. Sometimes you just gotta do unto others before they do unto you. God wills it!"

[Aperson444]

NONE of you have read the Koran. I can tell. You took a few verses. In the Bible there are several lines hinting racism, misogyny, all kinds of shit. But would you call the whole book evil? That's how the Koran goes. Most terrorists are Jews actually. They far outnumber Muslim terrorists.

[nutsack]

Koran is NOT a book of peace, the first two pages talk about smiting the infidels. Have you read the koran? I have and granted it has some peaceful commentary, but the part about the fire coming down and smiting the infidels kinda negates that in my opinion. Why are you bringing up christianity i thought the discussion here was about islamofacists. Take a page out of the hadith and then come back and tell me that it is a book of peace.

I brought up Christianity because the bible is the same shit. Have you read both the bible and the koran? Bible has the same shit. Christian crusades specifically mentioned the killing of "infidels"

And the discussion is about terrorists and torture, not Muslims. Are you so brainwashed that you immediately associate them together?

There are double standards in any big religion but they for the most part teach peace.

[Syphilis]

They deserve to be tortured. If they didn't want to be, they shouldn't have decided to be a terrorist.

[Ezratal]

Yeah! They are one giant terrorist! KILL THE MUSLIMS!!!!!! lol... Why is anyone taking this thread even, like, remotely seriously? This guy is either: A) A troll, or B) a total moron. In either case, does he really deserve our attention?

[Slapshot]

What is truly disgusting is not the bigotry against muslims, but the outrage of muslims at the bigotry against them instead of the acts committed in the name of their precious religion which fuels this bigotry.

Everybody expects Christians to rid themselves of bigotry and racism, while jews and muslims practice it openly. Indeed, predominantly Christian societies have accepted all religions and all races while jews and muslims are literally waging war against those who are not like them. Don't believe me? Try bringing a Bible through Saudi customs, try applying for citizenship in Isreal (if you're not 1/4 Jewish, you can't become a citizen... imagine a western nation enforcing such seperatist policies on a national level).

There is a world of difference between predominantly Christian societies and predominantly jewish or muslim societies. Bunch of fucking hypocrites, you'll get no sympathy from me.

[Aperson444]

What is truly disgusting is not the bigotry against muslims, but the outrage of muslims at the bigotry against them instead of the acts committed in the name of their precious religion which fuels this bigotry.

Everybody expects Christians to rid themselves of bigotry and racism, while jews and muslims practice it openly. Indeed, predominantly Christian societies have accepted all religions and all races while jews and muslims are literally waging war against those who are not like them. Don't believe me? Try bringing a Bible through Saudi customs, try applying for citizenship in Isreal (if you're not 1/4 Jewish, you can't become a citizen... imagine a western nation enforcing such seperatist policies on a national level).

There is a world of difference between predominantly Christian societies and predominantly jewish or muslim societies. Bunch of fucking hypocrites, you'll get no sympathy from me.

Well... thank the liberals then.

[Slapshot]

Well... thank the liberals then.

I'd rather fuck them up the ass with a baseball bat covered in vaseline with sand in it till they bleed than thank them. Matter of fact, we can do without the vaseline. Fucking liberals.

[Thought Riot]

What's really funny is that torturing all our prisoners (which we do) just makes more terrorists. Think about, you're an innocent man, then shoved into prison without trial, then tortured. The second I got out, I'd want to kill as many of those bastards as I could.

[Slapshot]

What's really funny is that torturing all our prisoners (which we do) just makes more terrorists. Think about, you're an innocent man, then shoved into prison without trial, then tortured. The second I got out, I'd want to kill as many of those bastards as I could.

Which is why they should be killed immediately and without trial. This is a war, you know... No options should be taken off the table.

[Jeff Gatherer]

people who don't want to morally degenerate to the level of terrorists do not support torture

[Captain Politik]

Which is why they should be killed immediately and without trial. This is a war, you know... No options should be taken off the table.

Thank you. I cant believe how brainwashed and big of pussies america has gotten

[Aperson444]

I can't believe all of you faggots are so stupid.

The moment you torture and kill even un-innocent terrorists, they recruit even larger amounts, using our torture as propaganda. There is no way to destroy them. The more we try, the more they grow. In fact, they want us to torture their militants. It draws thousands of Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The only way to rid ourselves of this problem is to nuke the whole world, killing all of humanity in the process. It's ironic how USA, as usual, sticking their dick into other country's business, started all of this shit. I just want to see more, and more soldiers dying, by the hundreds. They cheer when they kill 100 militants... but with those dead 500 more pop up. More and more soldiers will die, and I'm happy to watch them burn. Fuck the USA.

[JoePedo]

all of you faggots are so stupid.

Well, that depends, actually (yes, I know I cut your quote off). Familiar with the uses of inverse game theory in political participation?

The basic theory operates on the notion that the outcome is the definition of what was intended. Sure, most of the people posting in this thread have an IQ slightly smaller than their penis size in kilometers, but they're also not going to get anywhere in life. Instead, apparently-stupid actions are presumed, axiomatically, to be the actions of almost-intelligent people who get their money, power, drugs, e-props, or whatever from manipulating the stupidest people on earth.

So, if the outcome is the intent and the words are bullshit... what do we know?

- Torture is really shitty at gaining useable intelligence.

Okay, so we can tell that intelligence work is not the intentions of these particular powerholders. What's left?

- Torture is excellent at getting the innocent to "confess" to anything you want. See witch trial transcripts for details.

- Torture is excellent at giving anyone who wants to kill us both broad legitimacy, and the recruits it produces.

So, by the "the-result-was-the-plan-the-words-are-a-lie" axiom... can you think of any way that one could profit from confessions to the emotionally-ludicrous "atrocities" of these "evil" men, an increase in mass casualties from the increase in attacks on the US, and endless war?

If so, you've figured out what the plan is. Stupid? Hardly. Evil? Definately. Keeping amerikkkan lives safe? These people don't give a fuck about you, dude.

The game-theoretic inversion analysis of polytics (e.g., looking at the results and figuring out which motivations are optimized by the action) was quickly developed by the loose pedo think tanks after noticing that the story (preventing violence against children) didn't match the action (forcing runaways back home, et al), and after watching a few idiots flounder around, came up with the "the result was the intention, the television is a lie" tool.

Currently, we're hoping it will spread like wildfire, because the powerholders it illuminates tend to be really fucking evil, and for reasons I can't quite understand, all their schemes for money and power tend to have unreasonable costs in human life. In case you're wondering about my opinion on this one? Same story, panic leading to the suspension of the rule of law coupled with gross embezzlement. The drug war gave us the suspension of the fourth (and first and tenth) coupled with "warrantle$$ forfiture" and the world's largest slave labor state.

God knows what a hundred thousand people swearing they kill and eat Christian babies coupled with a massive wave of reprisals would do "for our own good."

But stupid? Not that much. Those are just the people they exploit. "Inverse game theory" - spread the message. ;)

God knows the world needs it. People-who-aren't-evil may be generally bright, but they're currently less organized.

[postdiluvium]

Anyone ever think that people really aren't being tortured? Maybe its a media PR campaign to make all of those little groups with Liberation, Fighter, and Freedom in their names to think we do. The media will only hype it up as it clearly is against what we would consider normal for a "civilized society". Whats more effective:

A. A soldier grabbing an alleged terrorist and saying we can legally detain you for so long until yadda yadda yadda...

B. A soldier grabbing an alleged terrorist and saying "tell me what I want to know or I'm sending your ass to Gitmo! I know you have heard of Gitmo!"

Its a bluff. At the very most, I believe, interrogations will go as far as drugging up the alleged terrorist to alter their state of mind. Nothing to the point of just drowning them unless they just say whatever the interrogators want to hear. I'm even skeptical about those accounts of prisoners being beaten to death. If it really did happen, I think it was because someone was just stressed out about being in the middle of a desert where they have no real definition of who the enemy is or when it will come. I mean, even Obama is still behind everything that is going on. He really hasn't said he would make any real changes.

I could be wrong about this, but it strategically is better to strike fear into your enemy before you come face to face with him.

[Thought Riot]

Anyone ever think that people really aren't being tortured? Maybe its a media PR campaign to make all of those little groups with Liberation, Fighter, and Freedom in their names to think we do. The media will only hype it up as it clearly is against what we would consider normal for a "civilized society". Whats more effective:

A. A soldier grabbing an alleged terrorist and saying we can legally detain you for so long until yadda yadda yadda...

B. A soldier grabbing an alleged terrorist and saying "tell me what I want to know or I'm sending your ass to Gitmo! I know you have heard of Gitmo!"

Its a bluff. At the very most, I believe, interrogations will go as far as drugging up the alleged terrorist to alter their state of mind. Nothing to the point of just drowning them unless they just say whatever the interrogators want to hear. I'm even skeptical about those accounts of prisoners being beaten to death. If it really did happen, I think it was because someone was just stressed out about being in the middle of a desert where they have no real definition of who the enemy is or when it will come. I mean, even Obama is still behind everything that is going on. He really hasn't said he would make any real changes.

I could be wrong about this, but it strategically is better to strike fear into your enemy before you come face to face with him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilawar_(human_rights_victim)

Read it. The coronor at Bagram, a US prison facility, called his death homicide. Of course it's happening. He was the third fatality.

"It was found that at the time of Dilawar's death, the injured muscles in his legs had become "pulpified."

According to the death certificate shown in the documentary Taxi to the Dark Side, the box marked Homicide had been checked as the ultimate cause of death. Despite this, the military publicly claimed that Dilawar had died from natural causes."

[postdiluvium]

According to the death certificate shown in the documentary Taxi to the Dark Side, the box marked Homicide had been checked as the ultimate cause of death. Despite this, the military publicly claimed that Dilawar had died from natural causes."

Yeah, people would naturally die from being beaten to death. I kid. But seriously, I don't think a prisoner being beaten to death was an order given by the government. That was based on the individuals that were there. If the government were giving orders like that, most of the people detained would be dead. Which is not the case because they are usually sent to another country so they can't tell an independently ran press that they were detained just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and they knew how to speak English.

[Lysergic Rain]

They're not terrorists, they're terrorist suspects. They never had a trial...

[Struwwelpeter]

Three terrorists got waterboarded, including one that participated in the 9/11 incident.

They are terrorists. They do not go to trial for being terrorists.

The three cases of terrorists being waterboarded were in line with the articles of war, and were completely legal, and not torture.

Faggots are weakening America.

[Nightshade]

The only things a terrorist understands and peddles is fear, hatred, and death. They are not human beings, they are animals and should be treated as such.

What the left don't realize is that terrorists do not care about negotiations or peace. All they care about is killing the great American devil, and guess what folks to them we are nothing more than targets to be killed.

Well I say it's either us or them. No compromises, no negotiations, no give or take. Torture can be a good tool, so long as the information taken is verified to be accurate.

Once a terrorist has outlived their usefulness every one of them should be made an example of and be executed. This will send a message to other terrorists that we don't mess around and will not tolerate any actions they take against the US and her allies.

[Trix Are For Kids]

Fuck those dirty Muslims is a real slam to entire body of people. And a few Catholic priest molest little boys every now and then, but does that mean all of Catholicism is bad and the Pope is evil? With a statement like that you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.


If the baby is Muslim, and the bath water is filthy, are you saying that the filth came from the Muslim baby? If so, does the cleaning of the bathtub represent the cleansing of the Earth from all Muslims, and throwing out the water represents the removal of the dead bodies?

...Or do you mean to imply that we should put all the Muslims in bathtubs, with the final result being that their bodies end up being thrown out?

Either way, I like your thinking! ;);)

[harry_hardcore_hoedown]

What the fuck is going on in america??? People are complaining and seriously considering PRESSING CHARGES agasint people who tortured TERRORISTS???

Suspected terrorists, dumbass.

Can anyone here really tell me that they dont want a fucking raghead from the middle east tortured who was a terrorist?

Racism - that's great for credibility.

1) there religion calls for them to kill every non muslim on earth

Judaism calls for Jews to kill every non-Jew on Earth. Let's torture Jews.

2) they caused the deaths of thousands of innocent americans

These are suspected terrorists. They haven't been found guilty of anything.

3) if they had the chance they woudl kill every single non muslim on earth and torture us to death at that

A lot of Christians or Jews would do the same thing. They have every right to hate us, it's not something that warrants torture.

FUCK those dirty muslims. It is just crazy how far its gone BECAUSE TERRORISTS WERE TORTURED.. NO NOT FUCKING INNOCENT PEOPLE BUT DIRTY FUCKING TERRORIST MUSLIMS.

Protip: Go fuck yourself.

[Knight of Blackness]

Europe and the West are the light, all others are barbarians. If any barbarian wishes to harm us in any way, they must be neutralized, permanently.

I don't care what the koran reads or what prophet a or b said. They are the barbarians, we are the West. The West rules supreme and lets others enjoy their supremacy. If however others wanted to damage us, we shall show them our surpemacy at arms as well.

That said, torture is something only a barbarian would do. We don't need information from lowly creatures, sanatize them and get on with it.

[Star Wars Fan]

I think it's good that we are denouncing torture as long as it's still on the table behind closed doors. It's easy for hippies to preach non-violence from the safety of their own homes, but in the real world, there are people who simply will not talk unless they are tortured.

uh wut. You can change your foreign policy to prevent that

On the topic of Islam: Mohammad was a pedophile, mysogynist, racist, rapist, terrorist and murderer. That's history.

The very first /b/tard. But seriously, where is the 'racist' at?

I recall that the grandfather (or the father) of Charlemagne giving his subjects two choices, death or christianity.


Charlemagne himself did that actually to the northern Germanic Tribes IIRC



And they knew that the faster they kill them bastards, the faster they can go home and get out of that fucking Russian winter. I think more died from starvation and hypothermia then from actuall fighting.


incorrect, there were not more deaths from exposure/starvation than actual fighting. Also that happened due to anti-slavic racism.

[Star Wars Fan]

You fucking retard those CEO's are the smartest people in america and helped grow every single buisness. Not only do the majority of taxdollars come form the rich they are what you wish you were you fucking pathetic fuck

wow, how much do you get paid to suck that much dick :p

what the hippies dont really understand though is we are not torturing out of spite, we are doing it to get information so we don't have another 9/11 happen.

lol. you should then be investigating the bush administration and clinton for what they did re. 9/11. A new investigation behind 9/11

Africa doesn't have all that delicious oil

Edit: Also, china is sticking it's dick deep into africa to secure resources.

africa does have a lot of delicious oil actually, and the us and china will get into a nigga moment over africa's resources.

Don't believe me? Try bringing a Bible through Saudi customs, try applying for citizenship in Isreal (if you're not 1/4 Jewish, you can't become a citizen... imagine a western nation enforcing such seperatist policies on a national level).

lol. The Muslim Caliphates allowed Jews and Christians to exist and the Ottoman Empire didn't give a shit about your religion.

also re. Israel, Jews accept you based off your religion. you can be a black, asian, etc Jew. Im not supportive of Israel but im pointing that out.

What the left don't realize is that terrorists do not care about negotiations or peace. All they care about is killing the great American devil, and guess what folks to them we are nothing more than targets to be killed.

they care about the US not fucking with their land and whatnot. They wouldn't be 'terrorists' if the US wasn't forcing them to be

This will send a message to other terrorists that we don't mess around and will not tolerate any actions they take against the US and her allies.

did you copypasta this?

[Aperson444]

You don't seem to get my point At all. Torture creates MORE terrorism. It's like killing one ant in a deep ant hill. Doing anything to them will create more.

And that gives terrorists justification to torture our soldiers, who are fighting their men.

Most detainees are suspected of being part of the Taliban. Some were merely caught in Taliban territory with a foreign passport.

And FYI, Gitmo is in Cuba, not the desert.

[Vargus]

Anyone ever think that people really aren't being tortured? Maybe its a media PR campaign to make all of those little groups with Liberation, Fighter, and Freedom in their names to think we do. The media will only hype it up as it clearly is against what we would consider normal for a "civilized society". Whats more effective:

A. A soldier grabbing an alleged terrorist and saying we can legally detain you for so long until yadda yadda yadda...

B. A soldier grabbing an alleged terrorist and saying "tell me what I want to know or I'm sending your ass to Gitmo! I know you have heard of Gitmo!"

Its a bluff. At the very most, I believe, interrogations will go as far as drugging up the alleged terrorist to alter their state of mind. Nothing to the point of just drowning them unless they just say whatever the interrogators want to hear. I'm even skeptical about those accounts of prisoners being beaten to death. If it really did happen, I think it was because someone was just stressed out about being in the middle of a desert where they have no real definition of who the enemy is or when it will come. I mean, even Obama is still behind everything that is going on. He really hasn't said he would make any real changes.

I could be wrong about this, but it strategically is better to strike fear into your enemy before you come face to face with him.

Sense. This makes none. Seriously, this is quite possibly the most thoughtless post I've seen in a while.

In WW2, who do you think was the most willing people to cordially surrender to the enemy? Americans, Poles, French et al, or the Germans? Which group were more likely to get better treatment in the POW camps? Yea, I'm so sure that threatening people with torture and death will get them to just give up.

[Vargus]

The only things a terrorist understands and peddles is fear, hatred, and death. They are not human beings, they are animals and should be treated as such.

Your sig is pretty ironic:

The true patriot is motivated by a sense of responsibility, and out of self interest for himself, his family, and the future of his country to resist government abuse of power.

[Star Wars Fan]

In WW2, who do you think was the most willing people to cordially surrender to the enemy? Americans, Poles, French et al, or the Germans? Which group were more likely to get better treatment in the POW camps? Yea, I'm so sure that threatening people with torture and death will get them to just give up.

IIRC the Americans and British were treated pretty decently in Axis POW camps. There were some instances of 'massacres' of surrendering troops and those were blown up as propaganda, but the Allies did similar things.

If you're int he Eastern Front you're fucked. Well lol @ the Slavs who fought against the Soviet Union and with the Axis. That and the White Russians.

[Dichromate]

Sense. This makes none. Seriously, this is quite possibly the most thoughtless post I've seen in a while.

In WW2, who do you think was the most willing people to cordially surrender to the enemy? Americans, Poles, French et al, or the Germans? Which group were more likely to get better treatment in the POW camps? Yea, I'm so sure that threatening people with torture and death will get them to just give up.

I'd rather surrender to the Germans than the Japanese.
- The Germans weren't generally so harsh on western POW's, particularly not early in the war in the case of British. As hilarious as it is they did *kinda* abide by the Geneva convention. Of course it would suck to be a Soviet in German captivity.

Half the reason Germans were so eager to surrender to the western allies was because the Soviets were heading in from the east - the Krauts knew they were going to lose the war, so it was a matter of whether they wanted to end up in the captivity of the Yanks/Poms/Frogs or the Soviets.

Broadly speaking your point is definitely valid though - I mean the Germans defending Berlin tended to fight to the death, and it wasn't even as though by that stage they were disciplined soldiers - by that point we're talking about 'Volkssturm' as the last line of defense.

[Nagasaki911]

I brought up Christianity because the bible is the same shit. Have you read both the bible and the koran? Bible has the same shit. Christian crusades specifically mentioned the killing of "infidels"

And the discussion is about terrorists and torture, not Muslims. Are you so brainwashed that you immediately associate them together?

There are double standards in any big religion but they for the most part teach peace.

I have read both the bible and the koran, we used to read the koran during lunch at my catholic school. By the way, the crusades are not mentioned anywhere in the bible, unless your reading a different version from the rest of the world. Anyways, the difference between the crusades and the modern day jihad is the two words I put before the latter. The crusades are over and nobody denies that they were wrong and happened for less then honorable reasons. The problem we have here is that the crusades are over and nobody that is younger then 800 years old remembers them. Christianity has moved on since then and you can make an argument that modern day Christianity does more good then harm in the world today (Note: I'm not going to respond about the obvious problems with advising against condoms in africa so dont bother). The koran is a single compilation that was written down from one instance, whereas the bible is divided up into two parts, the old and new testament, what I am saying here is that although the old testament sure is full of things that are violent, christianity evolved and any true christian will follow the latest version (new testament).

My argument is that the koran is chock full of violence from page one, granted not all muslims follow the koran like a guidebook to life, but at the same time I find it hard to believe that it is a religion of peice.


touche on what I said about the argument though, as I stated before, the difference between just incarcerating these terrorists and "torturing" them is that we are trying to get information to prevent another 9/11. If/when we finish getting all information that we possibly can out of them, then lock them up and throw away the key.

To all those who say we shouldn't used enhanced interrogation to glean information, I am sure that these people who speak up against you, oh whoops! they cant


EDIT BY RUST:

Names of the 9/11 victims:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/pdf/2008/911_08_list_of_names.pdf

[JoePedo]

{deliberate page defacement}

So... you're saying we should find and torture George Bush?

[deus]

almost all terrorists are muslims.

Yeah! Like those IRA fuckers! :facepalm:

[Nagasaki911]

Yeah! Like those IRA fuckers! :facepalm:

al⋅most
  /ˈɔlmoʊst, ɔlˈmoʊst/ [awl-mohst, awl-mohst]

–adverb
very nearly; all but: almost every house; almost the entire symphony; to pay almost nothing for a car; almost twice as many books.
(sourced from dictionary.com)

But because we seem to want to bring up points I have already conceded, I might as well mention timothy mcveigh and the kkk, of course I am not saying that every muslim is a terrorist, or that every terrorist is a muslim because that would be blindly inaccurate, hence the word "almost" that I included in my post.


and to imjoethepedo, loose change is not a valid video as it has been debunked numerous times from to many different sources to mention, stop masturbating to it, wake up and realize that 9/11 was not some sort of George Bush conspiracy. I guess if you want you can make some sort of irrational argument for torturing George Bush I am all for hearing it, the world could use a little more laughter these days. However as I have already stated before, I think enhanced interrogation/"torture" is valid if we are trying to gain information about future terrorist acts. I doubt George Bush is going to be crashing any planes into buildings or strapping on a semtex suit anytime soon, but thats just my opinion.

[JoePedo]

and to imjoethepedo, loose change is not a valid video

That's nice. What?

[Nagasaki911]

That's nice. What?

Try reading the rest of the post, if your attention span will allow it.

[Genesis93]

i dont

[JoePedo]

Try reading the rest of the post, if your attention span will allow it.

Umm... yeah. You started babbling about some shit I'd never heard of. You then kept babbling about this - apparently a video - I've never even fucking heard of, as if it had something to do with the topic.

So, I take it you're schizophrenic?

[nutsack]

Torture = Terrorism. Not the information gathering part, but the effect on the people you are fighting.

[Nagasaki911]

Umm... yeah. You started babbling about some shit I'd never heard of. You then kept babbling about this - apparently a video - I've never even fucking heard of, as if it had something to do with the topic.

So, I take it you're schizophrenic?

I'll humor you, loose change is a well known video put out by some people who think George Bush was behind 9/11.

Since you said that we should torture George Bush, I inferred that you think of him as some sort of terrorist since that is what the discussion in this thread is about, I then said that I doubted that George Bush knows anything about any future terrorist operations, thereby not qualifying for my own personal criteria that I stated earlier in this thread to judge who should be tortured and who should not.

[JoePedo]

I'll humor you, loose change is a well known video put out by some people who think George Bush was behind 9/11.

Since you said that we should torture George Bush, I inferred that you think of him as some sort of terrorist since that is what the discussion in this thread is about, I then said that I doubted that George Bush knows anything about any future terrorist operations, thereby not qualifying for my own personal criteria that I stated earlier in this thread to judge who should be tortured and who should not.

Ahh, okay. Sounds funny.

My derivation was actually a lot simpler; if memory serves, the largest and first parts of the names of the dead were... Iraq war dead.

To be quite blunt, they pretty much died because shrub launched a war with no military signifigance in terms of defense or prosecution. As their being dead appeared to be offered as grounds for torture, and their death was brought about by Bush jr (as were the afghani war-dead, but at least there was a slightly clearer purpouse - not much, since more of those mountains were in pakistan than afghanistan, but some)... well, if their death is grounds for torture, than since their death was created by Bush to no positive end, then Bush would seem, by the same logic, to be a candidate for torture.

Ergo, let's strap him down; he killed a bunch of Iraq veterans.

As for the specific charge of...

I then said that I doubted that George Bush knows anything about any future terrorist operations

...this, he - and pretty much everyone in congress - are actually fairly decent candidates under that criteria, too.

Between 17 October 2006, and 12 June 2008, certain armed forces - including the army of the former government of Afghanistan - were statutorially decreed as nonlawful combatants by the Military Commissions Act of 2006.

The Geneva conventions, part I, article 5, however, state that all parties not afforded the full protections of prisoner of war status must have their status determined by individual review. During that time - by virtue of pursuing a methodology of warfare which stood against the laws of war - the entire US Department of Defense, and its subordinate divisions, were in fact by definition a terrorist organization. Article 130 might be of further interests as well.

This of course ended in 2008 when the Supreme Court said "lol fuck no," and the US has not been a state sponsor of terrorism nor its armed forces a terrorist organization since then. 'n should this come to trial, 315 congresspersons will bear the bulk of responsibility for this.

However, during those 20 months, while the congress had the responsibility of ordering war crimes, the commander in chief would have had more knowledge about future actions of his orders to the armed forces. ;)

So, torturing him would be alright... except that, even as the head of a terrorist organization, Bush would be "a person... placed hors de combat by... detention" under 3.1, and thus, torturing Bush would instantly become an "outrage against personal dignity" under 3.1(c).

But, he would have had knowledge of future terrorist attacks up until 12 June 2008, when the organization he commanded ceased being a combatant pursuing methodologies of war in direct conflict to the laws of war. ;)

So, there's that, too. But I was talking about the fact that he's responsible for the deaths of most of the people on the list you posted with no clear military justification. ;)

[LostCause]

All terrorists aren't muslim. I know this because I have crazy Zionist radicals in my family. Believe me they're terrorists. Moreover, define "terrorist". Its a completely vague term applying to anyone who "terrorizes" something/someone else.

There are plenty of Christian terrorists as well. A large portion of the US Army is probably defined as Christian terrorists, the rest of them simply being terrorists. Of course, that's just to whomever we are terrorizing at the moment.

However, do I believe in torturing terrorists? Sure. I don't see what the point of not torturing those who would torture us if they could. War is evil, don't try to put kid gloves on it someone will nuke you while your feeding all your POWs cake.

Cheers,
Lost

[Aperson444]

I have read both the bible and the koran, we used to read the koran during lunch at my catholic school. By the way, the crusades are not mentioned anywhere in the bible, unless your reading a different version from the rest of the world. Anyways, the difference between the crusades and the modern day jihad is the two words I put before the latter. The crusades are over and nobody denies that they were wrong and happened for less then honorable reasons. The problem we have here is that the crusades are over and nobody that is younger then 800 years old remembers them. Christianity has moved on since then and you can make an argument that modern day Christianity does more good then harm in the world today (Note: I'm not going to respond about the obvious problems with advising against condoms in africa so dont bother). The koran is a single compilation that was written down from one instance, whereas the bible is divided up into two parts, the old and new testament, what I am saying here is that although the old testament sure is full of things that are violent, christianity evolved and any true christian will follow the latest version (new testament).

My argument is that the koran is chock full of violence from page one, granted not all muslims follow the koran like a guidebook to life, but at the same time I find it hard to believe that it is a religion of peice.


touche on what I said about the argument though, as I stated before, the difference between just incarcerating these terrorists and "torturing" them is that we are trying to get information to prevent another 9/11. If/when we finish getting all information that we possibly can out of them, then lock them up and throw away the key.

To all those who say we shouldn't used enhanced interrogation to glean information, I am sure that these people who speak up against you, oh whoops! they cant


EDIT BY RUST:

Names of the 9/11 victims:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/om/pdf/2008/911_08_list_of_names.pdf

Obviously you've read the Koran, you should know these verses.

(not a verse) Islam is rooted from the word Salama which means Peace, or a follower of God.

Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!", this says that Muslims don't force Islam on people, merely because then everyone would be a Muslim

Quran 2:256; God said "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error...". Like Christianity, Islam states that Islam is the truth, but isn't Complusive about it

Also, you must remember that Muhammad's followers escaped to the Abyssinian Christians who accepted Islam just like Christianity. So Islam is one of the religions closest to Christianity. Judaism isn't. There are similar ideas, but no. Regardless, the Koran considers both these religions religions of the book.

In reality Jihad means "struggle", not "kill infidels". A drug addiction is a Jihad. A divorce is a Jihad.

There were also several verses where Muhammad said that muder is wrong, and that causing harm to one is wrong.

[JoePedo]

In reality Jihad means "struggle", not "kill infidels". A drug addiction is a Jihad. A divorce is a Jihad.

You're right, but the full phrase - Jihad al-Islam - is a bit richer than that; the struggle to surrender to the peace of God.

Admittedly, I've only heard it thirdhand through the sufi traditions - and those period, from the enlightened ages - but it amazes me the depth and complexity which can be encompassed in a single phrase.

But... yeah.

[Captain Politik]

What pisses me off even more is all the resources going into trying to getting former CIA members "tried".

I hope im wrong but I really do think there will be another 9/11 under niggeroma.