Creationism In Public Schools?

[Toothlessjoe]

Ok, so creationism is now being taught in some public schools, and they are motioning for it to be taught in many more. But, your first amendment confuses me because:

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose.

Justice Hugo Black held:

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."

Surely a publically funded school cannot adopt creationism without breaking your constitution in some form? I don't fucking get any of this.

Someone help me out.

[nutsack]

I suppose it depends on how they teach it. If they teach things from the bible that wouldn't sound right, but if they just gave the general idea that some people believe in an intelligent design and maybe taught some history on that it would be more acceptable. I don't know much about first amendment though.

[Syphilis]

So, now schools have gone from teaching pointless crap, the pointless crap which is wrong, cannot be proven, and has no shreds of evidence to support it.

[Raziel]

Good news, forcing this crap down kids throughts only pushes them away from it.

[Mullen]

Good news, forcing this crap down kids throats only pushes them away from it.

This.. They'll start to question it around age 13-14. Especially if it is taught side by side with science.

[enkrypt0r]

If you want to teach creationism in public schools alongside evolution, then you have to teach the Holocaust didn't happen alongside the Holocaust did happen.

[unstableasatable]

they dnt teach anything else in uk school. we have r.e god classes aswell tho

[Slave of the Beast]

I think you'll find it's called Creationist Science these days.

[Yggdrasil]

I think you'll find it's called Creationist Science these days.

I lol'd :lol:

Teaching this garbage in public schools has no merit and should not be acknowledge. As if public schools in this country weren't underfunded and behind academically already we want to start preachin' the "good word" to our kids? :rolleyes:

[LiquidIce]

Fuck. Thing is, evolution is not only a theory. Creation science is bullshit. This is what we get when people's ignorance is tolerated. :mad:

[InspiredByMe]

Good news, forcing this crap down kids throughts only pushes them away from it.

So society can hope. Kids are so dumb these day that I don't know if they will or not.

If it's already being taught in public schools, we need another Columbine.

[LiquidIce]

I think we would actually prosper from more science. Basic science stuff like the method and such. That would be a nice bullshit alarm kit for the young ones, eh?

Also, creation science is gaining a foothold in French schools - especially among young muslims. Who could've forseen that, eh? :rolleyes: I've got a news articles to back this up, but I'm lazy.

[Really Awesome Nickname]

Fuck creationists and religious zealots.

Its ok if they live happy in their fantasy, but dont fucking go around forcing others to believe in your lies :mad:.

[InspiredByMe]

Its ok if they live happy in their fantasy, but dont fucking go around forcing others to believe in your lies :mad:.

Exactly :mad:

[Really Awesome Nickname]

Exactly :mad:
Thank me :mad:.

[Yggdrasil]

I think we would actually prosper from more science. Basic science stuff like the method and such. That would be a nice bullshit alarm kit for the young ones, eh?

Also, creation science is gaining a foothold in French schools - especially among young muslims. Who could've forseen that, eh? :rolleyes: I've got a news articles to back this up, but I'm lazy.

You know, having dumb ass rednecks here in our good ol' US of A raises my ire as is, but having a country bombarded by socially backwards and religiously stringent people and then having such trite taught in public schools for them makes my blood boil. I'm not racist, and certainly don't have a prejudice against Middle-Easterners/Semites (I myself am partly Semitic), but these immigrants in European countries like France, Sweden, and the UK need to cut it with their bullshit. As I like to think, adapt to the 21st century or gtfo :rant:

[Toothlessjoe]

these immigrants in European countries like France, Sweden, and the UK need to cut it with their bullshit. As I like to think, adapt to the 21st century or gtfo :rant:

I could be an immigrant in France should I choose to be.

[ArmsMerchant]

Schools should teach a course on comparative religions, and include creationism as an example of the Christian mythos.

[Toothlessjoe]

Schools should teach a course on comparative religions, and include creationism as an example of the Christian mythos.

Yes, but not as an opposing scientific theory. I for once assume you're on the same line as me, and mean as a totally seperate course?

[LostCause]

How about not teaching things that aren't solid fact in schools?

For instance: creationism, the big bang, etc...

How about we just tell our children the truth and say "So, no one is yet completely sure where we came from because there's no factual evidence. May be one of you can figure it out..."

May be stop pretending like creationism and evolution are shut doors that aren't up for question or interpretation and except that we could be POSSIBLY be wrong about either of them because there's no proof. Except that those doors are still open for expounding on and actually let someone explore it.

Beats teaching children a bucket of lies.

Cheers,
Lost

[Really Awesome Nickname]

Religion is such an old thing that should have faded away already. It has done nothing but create conflict everywhere.

Old Testament Battles = Religion.
Wars over Rome = Religion.
Never ending wars of Israel & Egypt, Palestine, etc, etc... = Religion.
The Crusades = Religion.
WW2 = Religion (mainly).
Northern Ireland = Religion.
911 and Invasion of Afghanistan = Religion.

One thing is for sure, FUCK RELIGION.

[Toothlessjoe]

May be stop pretending like creationism and evolution...

Evolution is a proven thing though. It can exist alongside creationism just fine as a theory.

Creationism relies on the fact you need to be religious or disprove religion to disprove it as a theory.

[Fuck the FBI]

Creationism in school? At least the tests would be easy. All the answers would be "god did it"

But seriously, this is retarded. Why teach a myth instead of fact?

[Fuck the FBI]

Evolution is a proven thing though. It can exist alongside creationism just fine as a theory.

Creationism relies on the fact you need to be religious or disprove religion to disprove it as a theory.

Prove god exists...then we'll believe it.

[ArmsMerchant]

Yes, but not as an opposing scientific theory. I for once assume you're on the same line as me, and mean as a totally seperate course?

Like I said, creationism is a myth--like the Eden myth, the myth of the great flood (which occurs in many cultures) and so forth. It should be given no more weight than myths of other religions.

[Toothlessjoe]

Prove god exists...then we'll believe it.

Do you even have a point?

[Toothlessjoe]

Like I said, creationism is a myth--like the Eden myth, the myth of the great flood (which occurs in many cultures) and so forth. It should be given no more weight than myths of other religions.

That's not what I asked.

[Yggdrasil]

I could be an immigrant in France should I choose to be.

Oh please, TJ, don't get us caught in in word-play now. I am referring to the undeniable wave of mostly uneducated and socially backwards folk sweeping in from the Middle East, the Asian subcontinent and Africa into Europe. I despise out of hand racism and oppose it vehemently, but it has to be said this wave of immigration into Europe is having, in general, a negative impact; take that as you will...

[Vizier]

Then those creationists and fundamentalists grow up and become the leaders of your countries.

Most of the people in the world are a big :picard:

[ArmsMerchant]

That's not what I asked.

Okay, help me out here--what precisely WAS your question?

Don't be shy, just fucking ram your point home through the thick fog of my incomprehension.

[Toothlessjoe]

Okay, help me out here--what precisely WAS your question?

Don't be shy, just fucking ram your point home through the thick fog of my incomprehension.

Yes, but not as an opposing scientific theory. I for once assume you're on the same line as me, and mean as a totally seperate course?

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=594204&postcount=19

Try to be nice, hypocrite.

[Syphilis]

For instance: creationism, the big bang, etc...

How about we just tell our children the truth and say "So, no one is yet completely sure where we came from because there's no factual evidence. May be one of you can figure it out..."

Things is, there's evidence to support the big bang, and no evidence at all for creationism.

[DJ Meaty Cheeks]

Surely a publically funded school cannot adopt creationism without breaking your constitution in some form? I don't fucking get any of this.

Someone help me out.

You are correct. But the US constitution doesn't mean shit anymore.

[The Better Version]

I think this is a great idea and will help ease tensions among believers and non-believers. Oh and to answer your question, I think they would consider this to be ok under the basis that the class is about religion in general rather than a class favoring one particular type of religion. They have these classes at the college level and they call it religious studies. As long as it's voluntary and as long as they're teaching rather than preaching, then I think this is perfectly acceptable, regardless of how dumb religion is.

[TruthWielder]

There are many concerns to point out here in regards to how people address this "problem", most of them leading to the proper definition of what should constitute an education.

To begin with, education is just that-education, the exportation and importation of knowledge and the means for obtaining knowledge: rational thought, critical thought, and abstract thinking.

If this is what all education truly amounted to in America, kindergarten teachers could be pedophile, satanist, white supremacist anarchists. With the proper amount and quality of security of course. :)

Because information and learning are just that. In itself to learn is not to know, it is to think. Why? Because a fundamental philosophical understanding of the Greeks is that true knowledge is beyond normal comprehension/contemplation. Thus, to know how to think is much more important than what one is thinking about. However, most teachers in America, with a hopeful amount of beautiful and wise exceptions, being just one vague hazy sheep after another, are content with regurgitating vaguely leftist and socially liberal sentiments (save the earth, guns are bad, rabble rabble :rolleyes:) while rehearsing the words in their books and lesson plans.

So how are these uneducated people supposed to enlighten the fertile minds of our youth? The plain truth is they can't. Thus, indoctrination replaces rational thought. This is how it is.

There is no questioning. There is no discussion. There is no room for new thoughts because thinking unbalances the system of "education". Hah. Uneducation more like.

"But...uh...wasn't the Gulf of Tonkin incident proven to be a false military fabrication to get us involved in Vietnam?" for example would have no place in your public education American history class.

As for the question at hand:

Creationism is just a thought. Like any other thought it should be open to debate and theorizing. If it is taught as an idea rather than a TRUTH than why should schools and teachers feel bad for talking about it.

Remember kids:
teaching =/= telling

teacher =/= truth teller/wise person/Jesus

But to deny someone the observation and discussion of a thought? Sorry, but thats just plain and simple tyranny.

[Rust]

May be stop pretending like creationism and evolution are shut doors that aren't up for question or interpretation and except that we could be POSSIBLY be wrong about either of them because there's no proof. Except that those doors are still open for expounding on and actually let someone explore it.


You can explore them all you want, the problem is you need to do it rationally and with evidence. Even then, there are still things that re shut doors, whether you like it or not. The theory of gravitation can be explored further, sure, but it's a fact that an apple falls down to the Earth. That's not going to change. The same applies to evolution.

To even mention evolution as if it were at the same level as creationism shows how either you're ignorant of just how substantiated and supported the theory of evolution is, or how you're willing to ignore this just to appease religious idiots who hold a baseless myth as true

They are nothing close to the same. Stop treating them as such.

[Candiru]

I thought there was a trial about this a couple of years ago. It was proven in court that intelligent design is just creationism trying to disguise itself as science because it isn't testable or falsifiable and makes no new scientific claims. OK... when are people going to move the fuck on!

[Raziel]

Religion is such an old thing that should have faded away already. It has done nothing but create conflict everywhere.

Old Testament Battles = Religion.
Wars over Rome = Religion.
Never ending wars of Israel & Egypt, Palestine, etc, etc... = Religion.
The Crusades = Religion.
WW2 = Religion (mainly).
Northern Ireland = Religion.
911 and Invasion of Afghanistan = Religion.

One thing is for sure, FUCK RELIGION.
I dig what your saying, but what religion is responsible for WW2. Also Afghanistan was for oil right, (and too impress daddy...)?

[Slave of the Beast]

I dig what your saying, but what religion is responsible for WW2. Also Afghanistan was for oil right, (and too impress daddy...)?

In Mein Kampf Hitler claims to believe he's executing God's will, I assume that his God was the Christian one.

[Yggdrasil]

I dig what your saying, but what religion is responsible for WW2. Also Afghanistan was for oil right, (and too impress daddy...)?

Actually, there is little oil in Afghanistan. As far as I know, opium/heroin production is one of Afghanistan's largest industries (if not the largest). And Hitler was/appealed to Catholics. But WWII was also caused by economic strife, nationalism, and a variety of other factors. Also, Adrenaline Shots left out some of the highlights of religious interference in the world, such as the Inquisition, the witch burnings, the Muslim conquests, and countless other follies instigated by religion. If anything, Afghanistan is the result of Bush trying to extend American geopolitical influence in the region.

[Raziel]

Actually, there is little oil in Afghanistan. As far as I know, opium/heroin production is one of Afghanistan's largest industries (if not the largest). And Hitler was/appealed to Catholics. But WWII was also caused by economic strife, nationalism, and a variety of other factors. Also, Adrenaline Shots left out some of the highlights of religious interference in the world, such as the Inquisition, the witch burnings, the Muslim conquests, and countless other follies instigated by religion. If anything, Afghanistan is the result of Bush trying to extend American geopolitical influence in the region.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.:)

[nutsack]

Actually, there is little oil in Afghanistan.

True, but

If anything, Afghanistan is the result of Bush trying to extend American geopolitical influence in the region.

The region in general is extremely oil rich.

Also, the place was fucked and ruled by the Taliban who took over after the Soviets left. Letting the Taliban own a country isn't really in the interests of America.

[TruthWielder]

In Mein Kampf Hitler claims to believe he's executing God's will, I assume that his God was the Christian one.

If you honestly believe that Hitler's primary (or secondary, or tertiary, or quadrinary...) impetus for executing an attempt at unprovoked world conquest was [I]God[/I you are too much of a dumbass to make any type of historical commentary whatsoever.

Not saying that you do but that was the discernably stupid implication.

[The Explanation]

There are many concerns to point out here in regards to how people address this "problem", most of them leading to the proper definition of what should constitute an education.

To begin with, education is just that-education, the exportation and importation of knowledge and the means for obtaining knowledge: rational thought, critical thought, and abstract thinking.

If this is what all education truly amounted to in America, kindergarten teachers could be pedophile, satanist, white supremacist anarchists. With the proper amount and quality of security of course. :)

Because information and learning are just that. In itself to learn is not to know, it is to think. Why? Because a fundamental philosophical understanding of the Greeks is that true knowledge is beyond normal comprehension/contemplation. Thus, to know how to think is much more important than what one is thinking about. However, most teachers in America, with a hopeful amount of beautiful and wise exceptions, being just one vague hazy sheep after another, are content with regurgitating vaguely leftist and socially liberal sentiments (save the earth, guns are bad, rabble rabble :rolleyes:) while rehearsing the words in their books and lesson plans.

So how are these uneducated people supposed to enlighten the fertile minds of our youth? The plain truth is they can't. Thus, indoctrination replaces rational thought. This is how it is.

There is no questioning. There is no discussion. There is no room for new thoughts because thinking unbalances the system of "education". Hah. Uneducation more like.

"But...uh...wasn't the Gulf of Tonkin incident proven to be a false military fabrication to get us involved in Vietnam?" for example would have no place in your public education American history class.

As for the question at hand:

Creationism is just a thought. Like any other thought it should be open to debate and theorizing. If it is taught as an idea rather than a TRUTH than why should schools and teachers feel bad for talking about it.

Remember kids:
teaching =/= telling

teacher =/= truth teller/wise person/Jesus

But to deny someone the observation and discussion of a thought? Sorry, but thats just plain and simple tyranny.

I think you're being too hard on the American school system. Sure, by looking at the cirriculum, it would seem that the material is closed-minded and fact based. However, as a high school student, I don't believe that to be the case. Perhaps my school is the exception to the norm, but all of my teachers promote thinking skills quite alot.

That said, I think that science in general has become a sort of misnomer for the masses. Any sort of cool technology is immediatly associated with the term "science" even though it likely has little or nothing to do with the scientific method, objectivity, etc.

Creationism shouldn't be something that is never mentioned in public schools, but it also shouldn't be taught as fact. For example, a teacher could mention that creationism/ intelligent design is a possible explanation for human origin, but falls outside the realm of science. It should also be made clear what is fact and what is theory of evolution, ie microevolution vs. macroevolution. It should be left up to the student to choose what they believe, and hopefully, when educated, they will see that evolution makes more since. When creationism is simply not talked about, it makes it almost seem that scientists are scared of creationists in some way, and on the defensive. As a result, students may be more likely to turn to creationism.

[Jerry]

Also, Northern Ireland was not originally over religion - it was over land, and it just so happened that the side that had the land was one religion and the other side was another religion. However, the religious aspect is and was a huge part of the troubles.

[Slave of the Beast]

If you honestly believe that Hitler's primary (or secondary, or tertiary, or quadrinary...) impetus for executing an attempt at unprovoked world conquest was [I]God[/I you are too much of a dumbass to make any type of historical commentary whatsoever.

Not saying that you do but that was the discernably stupid implication.

Well shut your fucking hole then, you illiterate cretin.

[TruthWielder]

Well shut your fucking hole then, you illiterate cretin.

Irony is lulzy.

[Slave of the Beast]

Irony is lulzy.

Do you actually have a point to make, or are you just cruising for some ass?

[Pengdog99]

Actually, if you wish to eliminate this problem entirely all you need to do is to return the school system to its original intent, which was to teach reading, writing, and math. Science can be learned by an individual on his own if he is proficient in reading and math. All other subjects were only included to spend more money on education and create more justification for even more spending. A great example of this is in Social Studies, or Global Studies as it is sometimes called. One quick review of many of the textbooks can point to more confusion than true education. Big bang is a belief, not a fact. Evolution is a belief, not a fact. Facts are only statements that are made and quoted so many times that they become beliefs.

[nutsack]

Evolution is a belief, not a fact. Facts are only statements that are made and quoted so many times that they become beliefs.

Actually I think you will find that evolution is a theory, formed by examining lots of facts. And your definition of a fact is incorrect.

Also, stop teaching science in schools? Sounds like a really good way to dumb up the population even more.

[crazzyass]

I'm cool with it being taught in a philosophy class or comparative world religions, but science class?


Unfuckingbelievable. Christianity is such a miserable religion that instead of just letting people come to them, they have to go force people to follow it. The fucking Jews had it right; crucify the motherfuckers.

[Angry Blue Bird of Death]

I'm cool with it being taught in a philosophy class or comparative world religions, but science class?


Unfuckingbelievable. Christianity is such a miserable religion that instead of just letting people come to them, they have to go force people to follow it. The fucking Jews had it right; crucify the motherfuckers.

Shut up. Jews are fucking awful people.

[TruthWielder]

Do you actually have a point to make, or are you just cruising for some ass?

I usually have several points to make. The problem is you're too dense to understand them without spelling it out for you in direct insult. Like most low class people you understand force more than reason. Its a game that I don't wish to play with you however, as there is no reason to beat a dead horse.

[crazzyass]

Shut up. Jews are fucking awful people.

Hey, they got something right.

[Rust]

I usually have several points to make. The problem is you're too dense to understand them without spelling it out for you in direct insult. Like most low class people you understand force more than reason. Its a game that I don't wish to play with you however, as there is no reason to beat a dead horse.

Oh my, is that you arguing "to understand, teach, or progress in a mutual effort of enlightenment" (http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=584998&postcount=59)? How wonderful! Do keep enlightening us all, teacher!


:rolleyes:

[Slave of the Beast]

The fucking Jews had it right; crucify the motherfuckers.

Actually that was the Romans and before you say it Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian.

I usually have several points to make. The problem is you're too dense to understand them without spelling it out for you in direct insult. Like most low class people you understand force more than reason. Its a game that I don't wish to play with you however, as there is no reason to beat a dead horse.

You continually fail to provide the evidence to support your claims, oh Supreme One.

Still, as a low class person, I am mightly impressed by your empty rhetoric.

[coolstorybro]

No one will argue with the fucking fundies, thats why

[TruthWielder]

Oh my, is that you arguing "to understand, teach, or progress in a mutual effort of enlightenment" (http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=584998&postcount=59)? How wonderful! Do keep enlightening us all, teacher!


:rolleyes:

Out of context my friend.

You put me up on a pedestal through your insults!

I really must wonder how much I've tickled you. ;)

[Rust]

Right, in this case the context makes all the difference... oh wait no it doesn't.

[Candiru]

They should teach the creation myths for all religions equally since there is equal evidence for all of them. Zing!