Counterculture = fail?

[LiquidIce]

Do any of you here subscribe to the view of counterculture? Culture jamming? Subversive art, music, clothing, literature? Toppling 'the system'? Showing 'the man' that you're not just another part of his huge money-making machine?

Extreme sports, drugs, art, love beads and other tools of fighting the system?

I've recently started thinking about all the angst against the government and the response it gets - counterculture. That somehow this counterculture movement will destroy capitalism, will destroy the class war, will destroy authority and the mind-controlling media.

Conformity is shunned - it's the old fight of being hip or square. There's a view that there are the masses of people - sheeple, the grey little men and women who run the economy. The brainwashed majority. And then there are the subversive few, the fighters for freedom, the people who buy Fair Trade coffee, the people who buy the Blackspot Sneakers. The people who think that having fun, taking drugs, making art, having sex is all subversive, that it disrupts the system. The war on consumerism, on huge corporations.

This is where I say stop. Fucking stop. Hippies have been fighting the establishment, fighting this order since the 60's. It's been almost half a century since then and what? We got punks, we got rappers. All talking about 'the man' that controls their lives and the fight against him. But almost five decades have passed and has something changed?

Nope. The hippie, the punk, the grunge, the rap and even parts of the metal movements have not done anything but help fuel the system. You buy your hoodies, you buy your lovebeads, you buy the albums, you go to concerts, you read zines, fuck, maybe you even make zines... But this is all just a part of capitalism. It's just trade. Non-conformity sells. And it sells great. People actually buy new shit all the time to be better, unique. This is where the counterculture has pulled it's greatest lie - there is no counterculture. It sells fucking great!

And since when is hedonism revolutionary? Since when has taking drugs helped to bring change? To fight 'oppression'? Having wild sex does nothing to overthrow 'the man'. As does drinking Fair Trade coffee - if there are people willing to pay more for coffee then such a coffee will come about - it's the simple law of supply and demand.

The feminist movement has brought about change. It did so without being subversive, without making art and taking drugs. Sure, it went a lil' too far, but the point is that it worked. Getting together, getting stoned, singing songs won't help starving africans, it won't help the take down 'the system' that's oppressing everyone.

What are your thoughts?

[IcarusTheFool]

*starts a slow clap*

[Cliche Guevara]

I kind of agree, but when you take a look at the entire history of the "hippie" counterculture anti-materialism movement it begins right after the war (WWII) with the beat generation. And its quite interesting to see how even "beatnik" counterculture was appropriated by corporations to sell everything from berets to books to all sorts of junk like vinyls. (and even the word beat was defaced into an anti american "beatnik"). But its even more interesting to see how they the beats themselves realized what stereotype they had been cast into to sell products. A quote from Ginsberg.

If beatniks and not illuminated Beat poets overrun this country, they will have been created not by Kerouac but by industries of mass communication which continue to brainwash man

I guess you have to realize that the spawn of the "beats" (hippies) were faced in a social setting of serious post war/depression responsibility and even a war of their own. I really don't think the hippies meant to change anything, as all they really did was sit around or occasionally plant flowers as a means of demonstration.

But I really do think the hippie movement played some role in the New Left and the American Civil Rights Movement gaining ground in America. Groups such as Students for a Democratic Society definitely had some hippie background and they certainly deserve their fair share of recognition in the civil rights movement.

I think now we live in a peaceful and safe society full of civil liberty and justice which makes hippie movement seems kind of redundant, but in the end I think the hippie values should be embraced.

But yeah I really do hate the trendy hipster faggot walking around with his plastic sunglasses and neon yellow vans and scarf.

[Firemite]

I see it as impossible to go against "the system" in any significant numbers. For every one person who goes off into the wilderness to live a self sufficient life, thousands of people will simply follow the same path as everyone else.


Personally though, I wouldn't seek a way to go against "the system" I've lived under it all my life and if it went away overnight, I'd be lost without it. Yeah, the capitalist system we have at the moment is far from perfect, but I'm happy living under it and don't see the point in pointlessly trying to go against it.

[Rizzo in a box]

You're spot on. I actually wrote something like this while really high on meth. Only the first paragraph is really relevant. Everything else is meth-garble and ramblings.

What Acid Culture?
The central fallacy of the 60's revolutionary, Dionysian-consciousness expansion trip was in its failure to transcend culture. Instead of soaring above all the programmings and trappings introduced to us by our fellow humans, they were replaced, or perverted, twisted, and flipped Qlippothically upside down. Leary held a fragment of the right idea, which he then tried to mass produce to the general populace. However noble his naive intentions were, he failed see that clearly that an internal & complete transformation is very individual and completely acausal of external events.

///

anyway



This is where I say stop. Fucking stop. Hippies have been fighting the establishment, fighting this order since the 60's. It's been almost half a century since then and what? We got punks, we got rappers. All talking about 'the man' that controls their lives and the fight against him. But almost five decades have passed and has something changed?

Disagree. There is no need to stop. What we need to do is re-examine ourselves and our past. What went wrong in the 60's? What went right? How can we get as Weird as possible?

The only way to break free of the system is to stop systematic thought. The system is you (http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/dmtinsect.html).

All huddle in fear of the great-hive mother.

It's all about genuine self-expression. Are you expressing yourself out of an over-flowing of love, or out of deficiency and fear?

Some hippies really Got It but it's so easy to Get Lost and think that because you Had It you'll forever and always Have It. But you can't...Life is a constant process of learning, growing, changing, dying, being reborn, loving, losing, and laughing. All our outlets are being controlled. There is no way out.

Or so they'd have you think. But they are weak, and we are fnord strong.

Dancing is not a lie.

[jono]

i have thought about this alot and never really come to a conclusion.

i am part of the "counterculture" (for lack of a better word for my social group) and perhaps i am not destroying captialism or making a huge change in the world even though i would like to do both of things. i am however having a fucking good time taking drugs and making art/love and i love {most} of the people that i hang around with and so i don't planning on becoming "mainstream" (again for lack of a better word) anytime soon.

[LiquidIce]

That's sort of the point. I too am tired of 'subversive' faggots that try to tell me that my cellphone is causing africans to die, or the ones wearing 'question authority' t-shirts whilst listening to music from their ipods. The hypocrisy is just a needle in my eye.

I'm saying that we need the system and if something sucks - we should start changing it. Democracy is really flawed, but it's the best of the worst.

And Rizzo - what trappings and programmings are you talking about? I believe that a person is in full control of their beliefs, especially where we live (libraries, Internet, etc.), nothing is being forced down our throats - some of us just chose to accept or even make our lives hell. We have a free choice and it's great that people are able to make it, but most get stuck believing some irrelevant shit and live a shit life.

[LiquidIce]

Y

Disagree. There is no need to stop. What we need to do is re-examine ourselves and our past. What went wrong in the 60's? What went right? How can we get as Weird as possible?

The only way to break free of the system is to stop systematic thought. The system is you (http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/dmtinsect.html).

All huddle in fear of the great-hive mother.

The thing is what Jono said - counterculture is all about drugs, sex, cool shoes and a funky hairstyle - not about changing stuff. As Cliche mentioned - some good came out of the hippie movement, but that good could have been accomplished much quicker if a large portion of hippies weren't hippies just for the fun of it, but actually helped. Sure, have fun, but don't preach to the world that you're fighting, you're oppressed when in reality you're just stoned and dirty with semen.

And Jono - that is why I think that there is no counterculture. It's all the same. Everyone wants/is having fun, some people just do it in another way. Some play mainstream golf, other get stoned in a countercultural way.

[Fractals]

1. Who cares?

2. Its just the 'cool thing to do.' Do you think Hot Topic isn't in it for the money?

3. If you really want to break away from society, camp in the wilderness for a few years, or at least go train hopping or something.

4. You say you hate society but you cant stop using the internet or living in a house. Not that I give a shit, but it's pretty damn hypocritical.

5. Im baked.

:rant:

[Rizzo in a box]

And Rizzo - what trappings and programmings are you talking about?

Oh man, really? I mean, if you can't see the fnords, I can't show them to you. I'll show them to you, but only if you promise you'll look objectively.

I believe that a person is in full control of their beliefs

A-ha. I think I see the silver hair that will destroy yr entire tower. erm...

Ahem.

What you are really saying is that you believe that you have "control" because you have access to any number of different options. You're blinded through information overload. It's a very common and effective tactic in such a frantic and hectic time. Usually what happens is that

a) a person ends up dogmatically supporting one position while ignoring many other facts and logically proven arguments
b) dissolving into total nihilism
c) gets lost in a never-ending cycle of circular reasoning and seemingly profound personal revelations that actually lead nowhere at all
d) one stops being attached to what one believes.

The fact is, it is entirely possible to act and live for entire periods without a belief in a single thing. Your body possesses all the natural intelligence that is needed for life, and often this "rational" intellect seeks to upset the equilibrium of the body in its natural state. It can only do this through the medium of thought, which has been born in a thought-structure maintained by culture.

nothing is being forced down our throats - some of us just chose to accept or even make our lives hell.

You are so very wrong. Reality is imposed upon us at a very early age, in a fascist and despicable manner. Worse of all, we end up teaching kids that the reality that we live in is the only possible one. This "reality" of ours is just a description we have so that communication is possible, that's all.

We tell children all sorts of things that became indoctrinated beliefs. They are in fact so closely held that you have go to the very depths of madness to even begin to question them. See, The Human Evasion (http://deoxy.org/evasion/toc.htm).

Color. Light. Magnetism. Rainbows. Gravity. Love. Sex. Life. Race. Language. Philosophy. Death. Religion.

All these things we talk about and explain to children...We are all teachers, and poor ones at that.

Raw and unformed, we take Buddhas and turn them into Insectoid Soldiers.


3. If you really want to break away from society, camp in the wilderness for a few years, or at least go train hopping or something.

Not even this is going to help. I've lived in a tent community where we're basically self sufficient & what not, and GUESSS WHAT? Stupid monkey humans stay stupid monkey humans. No external object or action or anything is going to help. It doesn't matter if you drop acid, or meditate, or live in the forest. The problem is YOUR MIND, which even isn't YOUR mind.

The dirt you carry will stick to you until the ocean swallows you whole.

[LiquidIce]

^ I sometimes care, is that not reason enough to post about it?

And when did I say that I hate society :eek:? I don't want to break away, I just want to improve it if it needs improvement.

Where I live I see many problems, of the governmental as well as social nature. I see hypocrisy, I see stupidity, I see discrimination. I would like to fix that. Maybe I could change the young punks, hiphopers and rastafarians, who try to be countercultural, into something that could actually right the wrongs? Nah, too much for me, but it just gets to me.

[Rizzo in a box]

You'll see it if you're looking for it.

[LiquidIce]

stuff

I agree to a certain extent, but from where did people like you come from? You don't look like beliefs were spoonfed to you, and you accepted all that. No, you chose to seek otherness and you found it. The only thing, I think, that can be imposed upon people is the illusion that there is no choice. From that we get the attitude of close mindedness, but still -some people break away from it. We see people going away from the doctrines they were fed as children.

The only thing that matters to me is that people chose to be dumbed down in a way - they chose to watch TV all day, to fight with their loved ones or to toil in a 9 to 5 job. Then they go on to bitch and moan about the system. The young and furious turn into the old and grumpy.

I wasn't raised and taught that the reality we see is the only one - on the contrary, I was blinded by science, seeing that there are so many perspectives on the world. You may get the notion that I'm against spirituality and stuff like that, but no, I'm against the bad that it does, because spirituality sown in good minds will bring a good harvest, but spirituality sown in the minds of imbeciles will bring about weeds, hate, suffering and discrimination.

The choice exist, but some people refuse to see it and tell us that the only ideology that is right just so happens to be their ideology.

[AsylumSeaker]

I have my own culture all to myself. I counter my own culture too. It's about seeking a balance between balance and imbalance. Don't try to push in the opposite direction of everyone else, that's just silly. That will merely reduce the velocity of the social vehicle by however hard you can push which isn't much. Instead, push in a new and different direction and impart angular momentum to society. For example if you push at a 90 degree angle to the left it should start turning us all in that direction slightly! Perhaps if we could get enough people to give a sudden rearwards push (effectively like a handbrake) and another group of people to pull hard to one side, we could powerslide the metaphorical V8 of society down the metaphorical dirt road of reality - Fuck yeah.
http://ici-valenzuela.com/blog/wp-content/blogs/1/uploads//m5_drift2.jpg

[Fractals]

^ I sometimes care, is that not reason enough to post about it?

And when did I say that I hate society :eek:? I don't want to break away, I just want to improve it if it needs improvement.

Where I live I see many problems, of the governmental as well as social nature. I see hypocrisy, I see stupidity, I see discrimination. I would like to fix that. Maybe I could change the young punks, hiphopers and rastafarians, who try to be countercultural, into something that could actually right the wrongs? Nah, too much for me, but it just gets to me.

I was agreeing with you, and I meant they act like they hate society. The counterculture that it sounds like you're talking about wants to destroy the big corporations, but they still buy shit from them. Hell, even stealing from them isn't going to help bring them down. Society will try very hard to maintain the status quo, and other parts of society will end up spending to help the corporations. Prices would rise because they would spend more on security, and the government would spend more on police. Just an example, but my point is, society wants to maintain the status quo. Stealing even $5,000 from someplace like walmart, who makes over $400 billion a year, really doesn't hurt them too much.

If someone wants to break away from society, make your own clothes, grow your own drugs, and stop enjoying the comforts of society. Few people agree with everything in society, we all make compromises so we can enjoy a more comfortable life. You are free to live how you want, but no one likes people who bitch about bad choices they made, especially when they could do something about it.

All 'you's are in the rhetorical sense, except the first one.

[bigfoot]

i think about this a lot, how to make change?

do you stay in the system and corrupt as many people as possible
"dude if you have an ipod it has to be stolen"
or just go and live self sufficiently and prove that you can live in harmony and still
"have fun"

feminists have acheived nothing, ever heard of feminists fighting for equal rights for parents? i.e. 50:50 childcare?
that would be a central pillar to any sort of "equalism" yet its never mentioned

[Rizzo in a box]

Society or culture or whatever you might want to call it, has created us all solely and wholly for the purpose of maintaining its continuity and status quo.

To be an individual and to be yourself you don't have to do a thing. Culture demands that you should be something other than what you are. What a tremendous amount of energy — the will, the effort — we waste trying to become that! If that energy is released, what is it that we can't do? How simple it would be for every one of us to live in this world!

-UGK

[LiquidIce]

I was agreeing with you...

That's somewhere the right way. I dunno the exact right way, but that's generally it. Fixing stuff isn't about buying a hoodie, it's about learning and changing. Doing.

But buying... it does nothing, yet it's most common.



feminists have acheived nothing, ever heard of feminists fighting for equal rights for parents? i.e. 50:50 childcare?
that would be a central pillar to any sort of "equalism" yet its never mentioned

They've achieved better rights for women. That's important. And yeah, there is still a lot to do, because in some aspects they have gotten rid of equality (the childcare case), but I think something like feminism would progress quicker if it was made up of activists and not of ugly bitches that moan about an ad with exposed tits instead of fighting for true equality (or equality of their sisters in africa).

[bigfoot]

They've achieved better rights for women. That's important. And yeah, there is still a lot to do, because in some aspects they have gotten rid of equality (the childcare case), but I think something like feminism would progress quicker if it was made up of activists and not of ugly bitches that moan about an ad with exposed tits instead of fighting for true equality (or equality of their sisters in africa).

what rights? the right to equal pay so they can spend more in the consumer society? the right to work so the husband AND wife can go to work to pay a bigger mortgage whilst leaving their kids with people who brainwash them.

equal childcare is absolutely fundamental and everything else would/should flow from that, unfortunatly it would be difficult on the 5day week so industry would have to change, and children may actually grow up knowing what men think/do

now we cant have that. can we?

[Fractals]

That's somewhere the right way. I dunno the exact right way, but that's generally it.

Yea, I'm not that articulate when I'm stoned. And I just picked up a 8th after not smoking for a month. ;)

[JoePedo]

What are your thoughts?

Okay.

Do any of you here subscribe to the view of counterculture?

Your assertion that there is and/or can be only one "other opinion" is probably the most establishmentarian thing I've seen.

the people who buy Fair Trade coffee

"'Fair' Trade" contributes to the economic disempowerment of youth. Look it up.

This is where I say stop. Fucking stop.

No thank you.

Hippies have been fighting the establishment... But almost five decades have passed and has something changed?

Well, are black-skinned people in segregated schools, and can a female find employ outside the secretarial and sewing sectors? How 'bout that sodomy, how's that coming along?

And more importantly, are people born before the 60s about to start dying off?

you buy your lovebeads

No, I buy the raw materials. And I know the store owner personally.

And since when is hedonism revolutionary? Since when has taking drugs helped to bring change?

I think Hoffman did his work in the thirties, but...

tl;dr, what few movements succeeded in the 60s did so because of the notion of consciousness, whether or not they included LSD in their attempts at analysis.

Having wild sex does nothing to overthrow 'the man'.

Are you kidding? They have to pay to lock me up for the rest of my life, motherfucker!! :D

As does drinking Fair Trade coffee - if there are people willing to pay more for coffee then such a coffee will come about - it's the simple law of supply and demand.

Umm... despite "'Fair' Trade" furthering the preexisting systems of oppression, you just argued for its making a change.

The feminist movement has brought about change.

Oh, changed your mind, eh?

It did so without being subversive

Wut. Teh. Hell???

Do you know why they thought beating "uppity women" was "okay" in the 1800s????

without making art

Lolwut?

and taking drugs.

o.O

You can't prove that never happened. In fact, if you try, you might find...

Getting together, getting stoned, singing songs won't help starving africans

Apparently, it does if the reason they're starving is because "the system" won't serve them at the lunch counter.

Anyways...

"Getting together, getting stoned, singing songs" was mostly about creating alternatives to "teh system" and actually living them. Unless, of course, you're doing it where you're not supposed to be, especially with a lot of media present and handcuffed to something.

Which brings me to the next issue... "getting stoned, coming up with new ideas, and going out and doing them" (-abbie hoffman) is, itself, mostly about coming up with new ideas. I'm sure you're going to shout something about "why get stoned, faggit." Well, there's two reasons. One, it's really fucking fun. But since you're on a mad tactical trip, the other is that you will not in fact come up with the same ideas on an E peak as you will on a meth comedown.


Yes, son... you may not like it, but it's sometimes actually useful to see what different parts of your brain have to say.

The "go out and do something" is the part that involves, well, going out and doing something. 'n getting back to your false dichotomy, not everyone wants to overthrow the system. Some want to ignore it and do their own thing, and a lot of them are getting stoned and singing somewhere without involving the system with a great degree of success.

Others do want to go out and do something. I'm on that list, and a lot of you find my plans for the new world order shocking and radical. Luckily, that doesn't phase me in the least. What was the last idea I had while stoned? That reaching out and educating people who want to do something might be a good idea.

The other ones were ideas to share with, well, 12chan mobs, so nyyyah. Although, technically, I had one after that and started a transcultural conspiracy in the root of hippie consciousness expansion.

Funny thing about those hippies. Their theories of consciousness went a bit more in depth than just upping serotonergic levels, as much as that was part of it. In fact, they probably had the most complex and complete model of social neuropsychology - yes, not neuropsychiatry, though they were pretty bitchin' with the drugs too - that the world has known to date.

Probably why it worked, as they ruled the world for a time. That time extended well past the 80s, by the way. If you look it up, you will find "home internet usage" to be one of their legacies, for instance.

But, hell... you tell me to stop, what the hell else would you want me to do? This ain't a scene, kid, it's a fundamentally more feasible way of living.

[Rizzo in a box]

BTW, there's tons of great stuff to read re: The CIA & disrupting the counterculture movements.

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/07/10/cultural-warfare/
http://home.dti.net/lawserv/leary.html
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/cia_lsd.html
http://www.whale.to/b/brussell1.html
http://www.serendipity.li/cia/lyon.html
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/tlcia.html

Check the CIA site, too. http://www.foia.cia.gov/

Try searching for "LSD" or other fun stuff.

Note: do not mix the aforementioned activities/reading materials with chemicals that can induce acute paranoia or psychosis.

"If I were working for the CIA," he said, " I would have ten people working making a living exposing me. If I were the CIA, I'd own New Republic. I'd own The New Masses. I'd own Rolling Stone. I'd have 50 groups of people exposing the CIA..." "Do you think CIA people were involved in your group in the sixties?" I asked. Without hesitating Leary said, "Of course they were. I would say that eighty percent of my movements, eighty percent of the decisions I made were suggested to me by CIA people...

"I like the CIA!" he said. "The game they're playing is better than the FBI. Better than the Saigon police. Better than Franco's police. Better than the Israeli police. They're a thousand times better than the KGB. So it comes down to: who are you going to work for? The Yankees or the Dodgers?"

another cool article on the original topic (http://mondediplo.com/2000/10/06internet)

[LiquidIce]

I'm not criticizing people that take drugs, I'm just criticizing people that take drugs and think that it makes the world better. Sure, their world for some time, but that's all. And I know it's fun, I have to get hold of some benzydamine this week and have some of that 'fun'.

About the black segregation and female employ - I think that bringing those changes involved something more than singing kumbayah my lord and putting flowers into their hair. I think more change came from people like Martin Luther King Jr. than from Bob Marley, but it's gonna be a damn hard time judging that.

And your idea about educating people is great, not new, but great. It's about doing. Teaching. Showing. Learning.

It's not about choosing which 'subversive' shoes to wear, which 'subversive' hoodie to buy etc. Sure, symbolism is important, but it totally misses the point when I see hiphopers buying expensive cloths and then starting to bitch about how the system represses them and how their favorite hiphop artist gets the truth. Buying starbucks coffee won't help much the poor coffee farmers, a huge legal change would help. Same with high fructose corn syrup containing mercury - a simple boycott by writing a few blog or forum posts won't achieve much results, but legal action should do something.

[Rizzo in a box]

Why are you taking specific instances, turning them into generalities, and then using those generalities to argue an even more generalized principle?

What I've found in my not-so-many years of experience is that those things you're bitching about hiphopers buying expensive cloths and then starting to bitch about how the system represses them and how their favorite hiphop artist gets the truth.,

You have to address those as you see them. You have to, have to, start calling people out on their shit AS they shit. If the truth is contained it turns venomous.

Nothing is more brutal to a human than the truth.

[DeadLegend]

There is a counter culture. Just because they buy hoodies that are manufactured doesnt mean that there not counter culture.

All counter culture means is that the people that belong to it, like to do things that society doesnt necasarilly approve of.

IE drugs, rock music, whatever.

And while most of us would LIKE to rule ourselves in a type of popular sovereignty social system, we also know that certain parts of the current govt are needed.

You have your idea of the counter culture a little twisted. All it means is that we like to do things that are looked down on by society.

Revolutionists are the people your thinking of, which is a group that may be a PART of the counter culture, but in no way completely make up the counter culture.

[DeadLegend]

And reading the title of this thread, i was thinking to myself

of course the counter culture fails, if it didnt, it would be regular culture.

If everyone excepted it, it would no longer be "counter"

Right?

Like lets say today, 80 percent of america embraced the counter culture. It would become the norm, and the other 20 percent, who still wanted things to be the way they were yesterday, would now become members of the "counter culture"

[JoePedo]

I'm not criticizing people that take drugs, I'm just criticizing people that take drugs and think that it makes the world better.

To argue a counterpoint, decolonialization of consciousness was key to the black liberation movement both in the US and South Africa.

Whether or not they altered their consciousness with or without drugs, altering one's consciousness is a key step in the process.

About the black segregation and female employ - I think that bringing those changes involved something more than singing kumbayah my lord and putting flowers into their hair.

Were they doing it at a lunch counter?

And your idea about educating people is great, not new, but great. It's about doing. Teaching. Showing. Learning.

:D

Kumbayah can do that if you write your own lyrics, incidentally...

Sure, symbolism is important, but it totally misses the point when I see hiphopers buying expensive cloths and then starting to bitch about how the system represses them and how their favorite hiphop artist gets the truth.

True. Conversely...

It's not about choosing which 'subversive' shoes to wear

...but it can do wonders if you're subversive enough to make your own shoes.

which 'subversive' hoodie to buy etc.

...but it can do wonders if the point of your hoodie is to hid your face from the cameras when you pay cash for a blackop-devoted printer.

The government installed tracking dots into pretty much all printers, you know. Just in case you might print something subversive. So sure... don't mail in the warranty card. But ya might wanna buy a hoodie before you buy the thing.

Buying starbucks coffee won't help much the poor coffee farmers, a huge legal change would help.

Or, shade-grown, which prevents the soil depletion from rainforest razing and thus prevents agriculturally-prohibitive land-poverty.

But, of course, we're going to have to go a bit beyond all that. Care to sing kumbayah on the capital steps?

Naked?

[LiquidIce]

Why are you taking specific instances, turning them into generalities, and then using those generalities to argue an even more generalized principle?

What I've found in my not-so-many years of experience is that those things you're bitching about ,

You have to address those as you see them. You have to, have to, start calling people out on their shit AS they shit. If the truth is contained it turns venomous.

Nothing is more brutal to a human than the truth.
That's pretty right, but I'm attacking the people that dress like punks or rastafarians but do it just for the look. They wanna look like rebels. They adopt the pop-babble of 'no future' or 'Jah loves', but they don't live it. They join a movement because it become popular and they turn it to shit: cloths, shoes, hair styles. Most of the marijuana culture here is about smoking and that's it. Some people also yell about 'legalize it, dawg', but that's were it ends. No one but a scarce few are actually fighting for the legalization of marijuana, even though hundreds of thousands use it.

There is a counter culture. Just because they buy hoodies that are manufactured doesnt mean that there not counter culture.

All counter culture means is that the people that belong to it, like to do things that society doesnt necasarilly approve of.

IE drugs, rock music, whatever.

And while most of us would LIKE to rule ourselves in a type of popular sovereignty social system, we also know that certain parts of the current govt are needed.

You have your idea of the counter culture a little twisted. All it means is that we like to do things that are looked down on by society.

Revolutionists are the people your thinking of, which is a group that may be a PART of the counter culture, but in no way completely make up the counter culture.
Thing is that if the society does not approve of these people then why is there so many of them? Wearing a hoodie or smoking MJ isn't countercultural, it's so deeply rooted in the culture that if you wore a shirt and tie then you'd be pretty damn non-conformist. There is no counterculture, it's all part of a single culture where people like to have fun. One likes a swim, another basketball and yet another wants some DMT. But advertising stuff as countercultural, something like 'buy these shoes, become non-conformist, standout from the gray masses, be a rebel, buy these shoes'... that's what I'm mostly talking about.

stuff

Make my own shoes? That's it! That's what I'm talking about - if people are talking about change then be the change, not go and buy some black sneakers and say how non-conformist you are. And the hoodie can be some cheap-ass 10$ shit for a blackop, not a brand name 150$ piece of sewn together material.

What I'm getting is that to fix some problems it's not enough to dye your hair and shop at hot topic. It's not enough to sit around and do drugs. You gotta read. Know. Do.

[Rizzo in a box]

And then...share!

Kupfer: When the counterculture becomes enveloped by the culture, what gets lost?

Krassner: Idealism gets replaced by fashion, from tie-dyed t-shirts to lava lamps. People who’ve never ingested lsd refer to something as being “like such-and-such on acid.” The whole baby-boomer generation has now become a marketing demographic. Who ever expected R. Crumb, whose comics were underground in the sixties, to have three-page spreads in the New Yorker?

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/398/in_the_jesters_court

[DeadLegend]

But see, even the things that are deeply rooted in our society, are still looked down upon by the current society, which makes them counter culture.

And its not other peoples fault that the government has made it so you pretty much HAVE to use there monetary system.

Even if i did try to make my own shoes, id have to go pay for some type of material, which would fall under attack by you since i was buying something.

What would you have someone do? Tie some sticks together with rope they made from grass to wear as shoes?

The government has made it so that all aspects of life somehow have at least a small part involved with there monetary system.

Thats how govts hold power, is by revolving everything around money.

So dont hold it against people who would change it if they could, the truth is that there stuck buying things and stuck in the monetary prison that the government has created. Its not there fault.

[DeadLegend]

And by my logic earlier, which BTW you never replied to, there will ALWAYS be a counter culture, so whats the point in complaining about it?

[LiquidIce]

^ I'm not attacking 'the system'. I'm just saying that there just isn't a counterculture, hippies or punks didn't sell out - it became fashionable to be a hippie and punk once the movements came out from underground. You can buy marijuana styled t-shirts almost everywhere. You don't have to go to some flea markets or barter them underground - you just walk in a store and buy your countercultural item. It's stops being about legalizing marijuana, it starts being about 'the weed dude', the cool guy. No change. Just fashion.

[DeadLegend]

and like i said earlier, your idea of the counter culture is twisted.

Its more of our ideas about life and society in general that makes us members of the counter culture, not where we buy our clothes from.

While buying things and fashion is a part of the counter culture, its a very small part.

Like i said, its out ideas about life and society.

[LiquidIce]

^ All people (99%) have to wear cloths. They have to buy food. A car? They will go to events. They will also have to work.

Tell me a difference between this countercultural person and a square, a Jones? One dresses in Gap, the other in Hot Topic. One will buy a 5 year Ford or a Mitsubishi, the second one will buy a Prius ('cause it's environmentally friendly, eh?). Both types of people work and buy the same - they're part of exactly the same system.

coun⋅ter⋅cul⋅ture
–noun
the culture and lifestyle of those people, esp. among the young, who reject or oppose the dominant values and behavior of society.
And what values do they reject or oppose? These rebels grow up to be the same pot smokers that people 50 years ago were. These rebels behave the same way - they buy things, they work. They cheat on their loved ones. They get angry the same. They also like a good game of football or something. They also love money.

The Joneses are an imaginary enemy. There is no culture to counter. Taking drugs, having fun, wild sex are part of the current culture we live in. Nothing subversive in that. It's all consumers.

[The Better Version]

I try not to get all caught up in the culture v. counter culture war that's been raging on for thousands of years, only to change it's complexions every so hundred years as to come off as something revolutionary.

I live my life in a way that allows me to attain my ultimate goal and that is, of course, to be happy. I am very aware that most of what I love has been programmed into me via media, parents, friends, etc, but I just don't care about it. I don't care if I'm being programmed into liking something because the end result is the same.....I am happy. And I figured as long as I'm aware that I am being influenced then I can use that as a tool to evade myself from being duped. If I like it, I like it and if I don't, then I don't. Simple as that.

I just don't understand how people can get so worked up over bull shit that doesn't really matter. We're all going to die and this is the only life we will probably get so why waste it by "Fighting the man"? Let them do their bullshit and I'll go on to do my bullshit.

I think the moment people realize how none of this really matters is the moment they will be at peace with themselves and others. You just need to deviate yourself away from the masses and that includes the main streamers and the non-main streamers and do your own thing. I think when people do that, they will finally realize how silly we all are.....to care or be bothered by such things. To be bothered by others. This is how wars start because others simply want control of the ones who defy their logic and way of life and these counter culture hippies are just as bad as the politicians who start these wars. I mean when you really think about it, aren't these hippies doing the same thing our government is doing? They are expanding their sphere of influence. They are fighting others (politicians) because, essentially they defy their way of thinking.

It's all the fucking same when you break it down to it's lowest denominator. People are sick because they cannot live to be happy without others living the same way.

[AsylumSeaker]

About the black segregation and female employ - I think that bringing those changes involved something more than singing kumbayah my lord and putting flowers into their hair. I think more change came from people like Martin Luther King Jr. than from Bob Marley, but it's gonna be a damn hard time judging that.

No individual is responsible for changes like this. It's people like Bob Marley who inspire people like MLK to do anything in the first place.

[supperrfreek]

Nope. The hippie, the punk, the grunge, the rap and even parts of the metal movements have not done anything but help fuel the system. You buy your hoodies, you buy your lovebeads, you buy the albums, you go to concerts, you read zines, fuck, maybe you even make zines... But this is all just a part of capitalism. It's just trade. Non-conformity sells. And it sells great. People actually buy new shit all the time to be better, unique. This is where the counterculture has pulled it's greatest lie - there is no counterculture. It sells fucking great!

And since when is hedonism revolutionary? Since when has taking drugs helped to bring change? To fight 'oppression'? Having wild sex does nothing to overthrow 'the man'. As does drinking Fair Trade coffee - if there are people willing to pay more for coffee then such a coffee will come about - it's the simple law of supply and demand.

The feminist movement has brought about change. It did so without being subversive, without making art and taking drugs. Sure, it went a lil' too far, but the point is that it worked. Getting together, getting stoned, singing songs won't help starving africans, it won't help the take down 'the system' that's oppressing everyone.

They pretty much say this, and critique the out of hand parts of the feminism movement like free love and whatnot. I agree with you as well. The counterculture has failed, in fact, it wasn't co-opted because of popularity, it was co-opted because its message and its cool were so easily adaptable to consumerism. In fact, the Madison Avenue types didn't even have to do much work, because it is this search for distinction which they attempt to fuel, and, the counterculture was doing it for them. So basically it is a false choice between what is seen as an alternative and Madison avenue, when really you're just choosing between two different manifestations of the same phenomena.

Essentially, the whole culture vs. counterculture debate is just one long exercise in bad faith.

[Trix Are For Kids]

Fuck the man; I am the man. "The man" isn't doing anything wrong, it's doing every goddamn thing right. Think about it. The establishment has everybody fighting it. How often do you see big business waging a war on the little people? Honestly, it's always the ones who get the short end of the stick who complain. When good things happen to us, we are happy. When bad things happen, we wanna kill whoever gets good things. Protesers are only protesting because what they want isn't happening. Deep down, we only want to be at peace with ourselves, and everybody to listen to us. Huge corporations make billions of dollars a year, and they don't complain; but when they are in debt, things start to look bad. Everything is perfect when you're on top, and you only get concerned when you start to fall. This is why I make my own choices. I want to be at the top, and the only way to the top is to do terrible things to get there. We all do bad things to make ourselves happy. Why? Because somebody will always get fucked. There cannot be a top without a bottom, and I don't want to be at the bottom. I just don't see the point of fighting the man, because it is always harder for the person at the bottom to work their way up than it is for the person on top to fall. To truly be happy you can't be worried about other people, you must become "the man." Then you will have nothing to worry about. You can let the protesters fight you. Hell, you can even watch them on your 100" tv in the hottub with you hot wife. When you're on top, you have the luxury of letting everybody else get pissed off. I prefer this rather than being a so-called 'fighter of powers.' There's just no reason to fight. Nothing we do matters anyway unless people come together for everybody else. I know and fully accept that the entire world is doomed. I know our culture stands no chance at survival because of one inevitable truth: people like and only care about themselves. We cannot work together because it is our nature to be alone. We alone must succeed at everything. We alone must get ahead. It is how we are programmed. And frankly, I think that the day of our society's fall will be a good day. It will be the day that we realize we don't care about anything but ourselves. We will have finally shed our costumes that we wear all of our lives. We will stop pretending to be who we are not. I am not you, and you are not me, and they are not we. Ourselves are oursleves.

[Rizzo in a box]

^^^lol,

welcome to 1984

[supperrfreek]

^^^lol,

welcome to 1984

There is no "man". There are men, but they cannot control all, regardless of how much tech they can muster. How long was it since JD Salinger last had his picture taken? Proof. We are in no way moving toward 1984, we're moving toward a Brave New World style system where our hedonism and tacit acceptance of false choices will be the shackles which bind us. What we need to realize is that we've lost sight of the emotional and spiritual factors of the American Dream: 50% of marriages end in divorce here in the US, and, Christians (the largest religious group in the US) no longer seek to be Christ like; does anyone else see what I'm seeing? People are too wrapped up in themselves yes, but we ought not to seek for a group dynamic like Japan, their problems are just as bad as our own, yet, they are at the other end of the spectrum. Whereas we are too self absorbed, the Japanese have created a social machine where those who do not fit into this "combine" are hard wired to discard themselves (a phenomena known as hikikomori).
As I said earlier, the problem is one of "bad faith."

[Lord hang man]

Did you read The Rebel Sell? It shows systematically how the coercement of subcultural figures to economic sanctibility has led to the disenfranchisement in every so-called counter culture from the 50's to the present day. Startin with movies about badaaaaass biker rockers jammin on elvis' tracks.

[Reality Apologist]

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/Commodify-Your-Dissent-Salvos-Baffler/dp/0393316734

[supperrfreek]

While we're suggesting books which themselves discuss the failure of the counter culture movement, I'd like to suggest the book I've read on the topic Nation of Rebels: How Counter Culture Became Consumer Culture.

[Lord hang man]

Oh and no logo by Niomi Klein. Or wait, was she co-opted by Adbusters or is that all still cool? And what's the deal with these latte sleeves I'm not supposed to keep the same one am I? I keep getting funny looks from the girl at Starbucks but that might be because I gave her a 2 dollar tip from my change by mistake then asked her if she liked Esoteric & 7L.

[Resign the King]

I think if someone wants to change society they have to participate in it. Become a teacher, a judge, a journalist, get a job in film or television, a writer, somebody who interacts with people within society and has the ability to use the rules and shape them in their own way, or the ability to spread ideas.

There is no us vs them there is just us, and the cultures and civilizations we have developed are the best that we have been able to do collectively as a species up to this point. We live in a multicultural society and we as individuals now have access to as much information as we can gather.

Civilization and culture have certain constraints, we are expected to work our whole lives often at mundane jobs, learn to drive, marry and have children, obey the laws and cultural norms, etc. None of this is really a bad thing, you don't have to do it, it's just highly suggested, there may be consequences if you don't, but you can participate at the level you choose, and drop out if you have the want and ability to. And because of our participation we have the comforts that come with civilization. Our technology, transportation, cosy homes, and western medicine.

No doubt there are a lot of negative aspects, just watch MTV, or any channel for a half hour to see this. Plus I don't want to spend any more goddamned time working in a fast food chain, but this is just the way civilization has developed. It won't do a damn thing to break a Starbucks window, or paint an anarchy sign on a cop car. If I really wanted to change things I would get involved within society at a level where I had an influence on people. Most likely I will just kind of half drop out half hang in, participate enough to get an education then a job I like, while getting money to live comfortably and follow my own interests, I'm not interested in changing society personally.

[Rizzo in a box]

Become a teacher, a judge, a lawyer, a journalist

http://www.fargonebooks.com/fgimages/hunter.gif

[Resign the King]

http://www.fargonebooks.com/fgimages/hunter.gif

That's Hunter S Thompson right? I still haven't read anything by him yet, I really should get around to it soon.

[T.K. Baha]

Fuck da counter culture yo. Im a juggalo.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-11/1288634/Juggalo.jpg

[JoePedo]

Make my own shoes? That's it! That's what I'm talking about - if people are talking about change then be the change... You gotta read. Know. Do.

:D

not go and buy some black sneakers and say how non-conformist you are.

But... they're... black!!! :D

Some people also yell about 'legalize it, dawg', but that's were it ends. No one but a scarce few are actually fighting for the legalization of marijuana, even though hundreds of thousands use it.

To be fair, I'd suggest that sharing knowledges surrounding downlow public toking and the manufacture of edible pipes are fairly revolutionary, because - especially the latter, very much so the latter - it involves legalization without government consent.

I've been a fan of "legalization without government consent" on a lot of topics. But yes... if you eat the pipe, no evidence no foul. :D

Tell me a difference between this countercultural person and a square, a Jones? One dresses in Gap, the other in Hot Topic.

Ironically, I consider the Gap to have a very bitching political contribution record, while hot topic has none and just leeches money. :)

Not what you'd expect to hear on the street, but fuck it!

I'm just saying that there just isn't a counterculture, hippies or punks didn't sell out - it became fashionable to be a hippie and punk once the movements came out from underground. You can buy marijuana styled t-shirts almost everywhere. You don't have to go to some flea markets or barter them underground - you just walk in a store and buy your countercultural item.

Honestly... familiar with the theories surrounding third parties in a two-party system?

Basically, it's been posited that their role is appeasement pressure. They start siphoning disgruntled party members of one party over an issue the party neglects, said party provides the minimal change to maintain their monopoly and cut out the competitor, and the cycle's over.

Usually, this ends up with the death of the movement and a few trendy false-flaggers, sure. Lord knows I have a unique perspective about people who bitch about how "all people should be equal" or spit out "first they came for the communists" as a tired aphorism, and that's sort of a major vector of attack - flood the field with the fake to prevent networking 'n I think it's been held in common since about the start of this thread that this happens between the powerholders and the reformists, in every step of cooption.

However, what if one looked at this cycle as a cycle of incrementally progressive appeasement pressure?

The downside is that it's going to get dangerous when people find out you're serious about the shit everyone just blabs about. Trust me on this. The upside, however, is one little progressive cycle at a time...

Well, let's just say that no one gets looked down on for having smoked pot once in their reckless college experimentation, even if the rat bastards never do anything and the cops still jack it. All we have to do is find the next progression to force them to coopt. :)

...and then, of course, ignore everything they do right-er and just do it ourself without the power structures and cargo cults. But keep 'em movin' wherever we want to point 'em, 'n not worry so much should it take multiple increments.

After all, no one says we have to stop doing our own thing just because we make what we're trying to depose do what we tell it to do.

[AsylumSeaker]

This thread is so full of fail.
Counter-culture is a necessary factor in the progression of society. It's been around forever. The first crazy-ass motherfuckers who decided to plant seedlings and build immobile shelters out of mud bricks were a counter culture to nomadic pastoralists, and nomadic pastorlists were a counter culture to hunter-gatherers. You could even see it as an extension of biological evolution where species adapt into unfilled niches for their own advantage and as a result, counter other species in some way. It's the same mechanism. If whatever dynamics are behind this tendency weren't here then things probably just wouldn't happen at all.
I do agree that for the most part people often take up the 'counter-culture' thing as part of their image. Punks, rappers, etc. Not all of them, but many. When they do that, they aren't actually part of the counter-culture so we can just leave them out of the equation, it's not really useful in this conversation IMHO. They're just fakers. But I don't think these people are the real legacy of 60s counter-culture, which is what I think of as a 'real' counter-culture.
I think the big legacy of 60s counter-culture and the main force of counter-culture today are the people who built the internet and other advanced media and who actively take part in its evolution right now. It was a group of thinkers and techs on acid who set this whole thing up, seriously. And what they've created is the most effective tool for dissolving the boundaries of 'the system' that we've ever had and it's working at an unprecedented rate.

[nshanin]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/

Related video; the last part is most directly related to this thread.

If we define a counterculture as an opposing force to the prevailing culture and not a straw man that represents every fashionable hipster you've ever seen, then it's clear that few have anything to gain from opposing today's culture--at least as individuals. Today's culture is entirely hedonistic and even the antimaterialists only propose another form of hedonism, the "transcendence" of material desires no more plausible than any sort of transcendence that you'd find in the "religion" section of a Barnes and Noble. Considering this precise definition of today's culture as pleasure-seeking, nihilistic, and generally apathetic, the only people that can be considered part of the counterculture are people like Greyfox / ArmsMerchant, who live in the woods and hitchhike to their local library to use the internet.

In general, just flowing against the culture will do little if anything. The example of Greyfox comes in perfectly here--though I know full well his lifestyle and may have even fancied a similar situation, the thought has never materialized into action. However, look at how he influences others through his teachings rather than through his countercultural behavior. It's small changes like these that allow culture perhaps not to reverse itself, but to change course. There are many that alter culture from the inside--teachers, the very rare politician, parents, anyone who has an agenda, really. These individuals are able to do much more than isolated hippies who don't contact others and try not to associate with culture.

In this sense, drugs can be useful catalysts if used as teachers, and this is why getting stoned in a hippie circle usually leads to things like the internet. That passerby smelled the smoke, came over and tried some, and next thing you know he was dropping acid and decided that he wanted to make the world a better place using his unique talents. BOOM, Internet. The Internet is of course, anathema to counterculture because those who associate with counterculture will obviously not associate with methods of attaining an internet connection; but it is a very powerful tool for shifting culture, at least for the future. Just think--that small percent of new ecstasy users created from an explosion of information due to sites like The Hive (the outlet for which was created by computer enthusiasts walking by a hippie circle perhaps started by a hedonist hipster who failed hard at counterculture) will be so changed from their experience that they will do something similar to alter culture--whether it be fighting to end the drug war through means superior to Strike's (unfortunately :(), or just acting out of kindness to others. You can't fight culture, but you can work inside it to push it in the direction you want it to take.


That came out really, really badly; I'm sorry. :(

[vehicularmanslaughter]

i don't do drugs and fuck girls to topple the system. i do it because its great.
when i do things and you think i'm doing it to prove a point or change anything you're wrong. i wear what i wear because i like it. i do what i do because i enjoy it.
go ahead and put your label on it so that you can stick it in your neatly organized filing cabinet.

[JoePedo]

The Internet is of course, anathema to counterculture because those who associate with counterculture will obviously not associate with methods of attaining an internet connection

Pssst.

Encrypted wireless meshnets.

:D

...all that remains is how to populize building CPUs out of sand.

[bigfoot]

anti-road activists in the uk stopped a lot of roads being built in the late 90's and I guess here in the uk its generally accepted if you dont like something then you actually do something about it to stop it.

when you get very good at changing things the government will come and change the laws, like with anti-vivisectionists they were tolerated but as soon as they became very good at closing down breeders and importers of animals the government stepped in.

you can now get 5 years for attending a demonstration against animal research.

and i am now spreading the government fear by telling you, shit

[Rizzo in a box]

Considering this precise definition of today's culture as pleasure-seeking, nihilistic, and generally apathetic, the only people that can be considered part of the counterculture are people like Greyfox / ArmsMerchant, who live in the woods and hitchhike to their local library to use the internet.

What about living in the hills...or the river bottom...or in a car...or the various parks and public locations scattered around?

If you can control that which controls culture, then do you not have control over culture? To investigate what controls culture, one has to look at the microcosm - the self. How does the self respond to culture?

And so in just watching yourself there's a split, a break...What opens up in that void? I don't know, but its something creative.

Drugs allow you to access hidden compartments of the brain, open up new visions, new ideas, new realities.

There is no real need to counter-culture, because the counterculture, as has been shown, is just another aspect of the more general culture, which encompasses every aspect of the human experience that is possible to communicate. The more abstract the message, the more refined the medium. Painters, poets, philosophers...These people are more abstract than the merchants, politicians, and peasants. There are those who focus on what is, and there are those who wonder in awe at what could be.

ps: thanks for the link

[DeadLegend]

Tell me a difference between this countercultural person and a square, a Jones? One dresses in Gap, the other in Hot Topic.

And like i keep saying, your idea is twisted. Your SO caught up in the fashion and what they buy and wear.

The difference between the two people, is there ideas about society and govt.

And like i said before.

If 80 percent of the country embraced the counterculture ideas today, then the straight laced, buisness men type people would become the counter culture.

The counter culture doesnt mean pot, loud music, atc.

The counter culture is just the minority part of the culture. If tomorrow 80 percent of people became anarchists, then the govt supporters woud become members of the counter culture.

So no matter what, theres always going to be a counter culture.

Its just the members of society that have different type of views and ideas about society and the way things should be. Your so stuck on what they wear for some reason.

[DeadLegend]

There is no real need to counter-culture, because the counterculture, as has been shown, is just another aspect of the more general culture

I agree with you saying that its just another aspect of general culture. But like i said, even if there is no "NEED" to, peoples varying ideas and views make it so that there is ALWAYS going to be a counter culture.

Do you get what im saying when i talk about 80 percent of people embracing the counter culture, and then the other 20 percent by rule, would become the counter culture, simply because of there differing views from the majority of society?

So then the counter culture, since now the majority of society supports it, become the REGULAR culture, an the former "democratic, govt type" supporters, would become the counter culture, since only 20 percent of society supports it.

[Rizzo in a box]

I don't think you understand. A true revolutionary, one who can and has completely remade themselves over and over again...There is no way to copy that. You can try, but such imitations are cheap and hollow. Why does all marketing, advertisement, etc, leave such a hollow and poisonously metallic taste in the mouth? It's inherently dishonest. It's based on a false system of "I want, you have; you have, I want."

Those who are at the forefront of space travel will constantly be pushing the boundaries further and further into infinity. And because the possibilities are endless, all the fakes and hacks and mindless scum will be shown for what they are: uncreative, lacking in vitality, boring, mechanical, and only pawns for those in possession of endogenous spice-producing factories.

Anarchy may seem like what's "in" for the counter-culture, but I tell you, on the fringes of the Great Cosmic Sweater, anarchism is something silly...It's distilled for its essence, but in and of itself it isn't anything really revolutionary or mind blowing. Anarchism has many of the same roots as other sorts of interesting subjects that will lead you down all sorts of wild alleys...But like I said, those who are, if I may say, generators of culture, or genuine expressers of the self through a given media in a society; these sorts of people are just as likely to be fascist as they are anarchic. In the most extreme forms of any philosophy certain truths resonate with their polar opposites...balance is made. Homeostasis achieved. And what does nature care of culture?

After all, culture is naught but a locally grown disease.


Do you get what im saying when i talk about 80 percent of people embracing the counter culture, and then the other 20 percent by rule, would become the counter culture, simply because of there differing views from the majority of society?

What you're talking about makes no sense. You're expressing fabrications and hallucinations. The 80/20 shtick is old and lame. The counter-culture can't become the culture because what it is, is sort of a mirror, a reflection. As above, so below. It's difficult to understand, except through Kabbalah. Culture in that sense would then only exist at the mental level, it doesn't penetrate into the higher realms. So this 20% or whatever, this fringe minority is going to consist of two people:

a) those who go against the orthodox by descending (http://www.tauzero.com/Brenda_Laurel/PersonalMusings/AsahiTimothyLeary.jpg)
b) those who transcend the orthodox by ascending (http://www.altmanphoto.com/BabaRamDas.jpeg)

The examples I give of course aren't some sort of final judgment but merely an allusion.

an the former "democratic, govt type" supporters

Don't let me underestimate you, but...you haven't studied government or politics much, have you? No one informed is going to consider the US, or most Western countries, at all democratic.

Also, there are always blurring of lines.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/12/smokethatcigar.jpg
http://irom.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/hunter-thompson.jpg

Where does culture end and counter-culture begin?

See: the law.
(http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/engccxx.htm)

1. Had! The manifestation of Nuit.

2. The unveiling of the company of heaven.

3. Every man and every woman is a star.

4. Every number is infinite; there is no difference.

5. Help me, o warrior lord of Thebes, in my unveiling before the Children of men!

6. Be thou Hadit, my secret centre, my heart & my tongue!

7. Behold! it is revealed by Aiwass the minister of Hoor-paar-kraat.

8. The Khabs is in the Khu, not the Khu in the Khabs.

9. Worship then the Khabs, and behold my light shed over you!

10. Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known.

11. These are fools that men adore; both their Gods & their men are fools.

12. Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!

13. I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.

Oh, but look. I'm quoting Crowley.

http://digilander.libero.it/jamespaul/sgt_pepper_cover/sgt_pepper_cover.jpg

oops. How many times can a man run around in a circle?

[bigfoot]

"..yet my mind was not at rest, because nothing was acted, and thoughts run in me that words and writings were all nothing, and must die, for action is the life of all, and if thou dost not act, thou dost nothing,"

gerard winstanley

[Rizzo in a box]

"..yet my mind was not at rest, because nothing was acted, and thoughts run in me that words and writings were all nothing, and must die, for action is the life of all, and if thou dost not act, thou dost nothing,"

gerard winstanley


One day Ananda, who had been thinking deeply about things for a while, turned to the Buddha and exclaimed:
"Lord, I've been thinking- spiritual friendship is at least half of the spiritual life!"
The Buddha replied: "Say not so, Ananda, say not so. Spiritual friendship is the whole of the spiritual life!"

Samyutta Nikaya, Verse 2

[DeadLegend]

What you're talking about makes no sense. You're expressing fabrications and hallucinations. The 80/20 shtick is old and lame. The counter-culture can't become the culture because what it is, is sort of a mirror, a reflection. As above, so below. It's difficult to understand, except through Kabbalah. Culture in that sense would then only exist at the mental level, it doesn't penetrate into the higher realms. So this 20% or whatever, this fringe minority is going to consist of two people

You dont understand what im saying.

All i was trying to convey, is that if something that is part of the counter culture, something that is shunned by the majority of society, becomes embraced and is shunned no more, then it is no longer a part of the counter culture.


And it doesnt matter WHAT equation you use to express this, as long as there is a greater and lesser. Even a 60/50. Where 60 represent the counter culture that has been embraced by all of society.

So if the counter culture was embraced, every part of it, then it would no longer be the counter culture, and the govt, ideas of socity and life, etc, would become the counter culture, since it has less people who support it.

So counter culture can be:

Anarchy, drugs, rock and roll, overthrowing the govt

Or it can be

Classical music, town hall meetings, supporting law enforcement, wanting to make the govt have more power.

So if you have 70 people supporting the frst scenario (drugs, rock etc) and only 30 people supporting the second (town hall, law, etc) then the second becomes the counter culture, because it goes against everything the majority of society supporst.
It all depends on the current society and who supports what in the community.

[Rizzo in a box]

You dont understand what im saying.

All i was trying to convey, is that if something that is part of the counter culture, something that is shunned by the majority of society, becomes embraced and is shunned no more, then it is no longer a part of the counter culture.

So if the counter culture was embraced, every part of it, then it would no longer be the counter culture.

And what I'm saying is that isn't possible, because the source of counter-culture, the vehicle which generates it, is by its nature something which can not be contained. We fly, alone, into the abyss. At top speed. Pulling many, many Gs.

[nshanin]

"..yet my mind was not at rest, because nothing was acted, and thoughts run in me that words and writings were all nothing, and must die, for action is the life of all, and if thou dost not act, thou dost nothing,"

"The five colors blind the eye. The five tones deafen the ear. The five flavors dull the taste. Racing and hunting madden the Heart. Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing."

I do rather prefer the latter view.

[DeadLegend]

And what I'm saying is that isn't possible

Oh yes, by all means it is possible, and has happened before. Not that fast, but in time it has happened

Ill give you an example

Our fore fathers, Ben Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, etc, were ALL members of the counter culture. They were revolutionists, and there ideas and views, back in there time, would be considered as counter culture ideals. However, over time, there ideas became the norm, and what was at one time the norm, became the counter cultur ideas.

Its the same princaple as what im saying.

At the begining, before anyone thought the same way as them, they were considered "rebels" , which would be considered counter culturistic.
But over time more and more people adopted there principales and ideas, until the majority of people thought like them. So they were no longer the minority, making the way there principales and ideas the norm.
So then british supporters, who were at one time considered the norm, became the minority, therefore they were now the counter culture.

All counter culture means is going against the norm. Thats all.

[Agent 008]

Have you not noticed?

Counter-culture, if there even was such a thing at some point (and there probably was, remember the times of the Vietnam war?), is now completely dead. As well as idealism.

Conformism is the philosophy of our generation. Not try to change the system, but embrace it, and make the most of it. Everybody is just trying to fit in.

Not saying if it's a good thing or a bad thing - just stating a fact.

[DeadLegend]

See, the problem is that everyone just thinks that the counter culture is one thing, and that thats all it can be. Everyone thinks its :hippies, drugs, rock, down with the man, anarchism, etc.

But it can be anything, it just matters on the current philosophy of the society in question.

I guess no matter how many times i say it, some of you just cant wrap your minds around it.

To the post above me. Yes, id say the counter culture of the era may be dead, but thats just because the ideas and philosophy of the majority of society changed.

[Dream of the iris]

You're spot on. I actually wrote something like this while really high on meth. Only the first paragraph is really relevant. Everything else is meth-garble and ramblings.

What Acid Culture?
The central fallacy of the 60's revolutionary, Dionysian-consciousness expansion trip was in its failure to transcend culture. Instead of soaring above all the programmings and trappings introduced to us by our fellow humans, they were replaced, or perverted, twisted, and flipped Qlippothically upside down. Leary held a fragment of the right idea, which he then tried to mass produce to the general populace. However noble his naive intentions were, he failed see that clearly that an internal & complete transformation is very individual and completely acausal of external events.

///

anyway



Disagree. There is no need to stop. What we need to do is re-examine ourselves and our past. What went wrong in the 60's? What went right? How can we get as Weird as possible?

The only way to break free of the system is to stop systematic thought. The system is you (http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/dmtinsect.html).

All huddle in fear of the great-hive mother.

It's all about genuine self-expression. Are you expressing yourself out of an over-flowing of love, or out of deficiency and fear?

Some hippies really Got It but it's so easy to Get Lost and think that because you Had It you'll forever and always Have It. But you can't...Life is a constant process of learning, growing, changing, dying, being reborn, loving, losing, and laughing. All our outlets are being controlled. There is no way out.

Or so they'd have you think. But they are weak, and we are fnord strong.

Dancing is not a lie.


Holy shit! That's genius!

:D


:thumbsup:

Social institutions do conform in order to survive. If the population wants more sex, drugs, and rock and roll, well damn it we better figure out a way to sell it to them! :p It seems like we kept the fun parts of the counter culture movement of the 60's and just left the rest to the weirdos.


Idealism isn't dead, Nukem. It just went underground ;)

[crackhead]

I declare zoklet to be the only true counter culture.

[bigfoot]

Have you not noticed?

Counter-culture, if there even was such a thing at some point (and there probably was, remember the times of the Vietnam war?), is now completely dead. As well as idealism.

Conformism is the philosophy of our generation. Not try to change the system, but embrace it, and make the most of it. Everybody is just trying to fit in.

Not saying if it's a good thing or a bad thing - just stating a fact.

http://www.directaction.info/
and thats just animal rights, there is plenty of ELF stuff going on, some of these people may wear black spot some wear nike (urban camoflage if you will)

Every one isn't trying to fit in.

[bigfoot]

"The five colors blind the eye. The five tones deafen the ear. The five flavors dull the taste. Racing and hunting madden the Heart. Therefore the sage goes about doing nothing."

I do rather prefer the latter view.


"all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
Edmund Burke

[Shaggy]

This is all true, but it is the ideals and thoughts that you might be doing something to make a difference that keeps it going. In the end we won't matter. We won't change the system. The system is self inflicted. It is this way because we keep it this way. We all don't overrun the government to tear it down. That's because we utilize it and are comfortable, and the thought that somehow we might be sticking it to the "man" is enough for us to not feel guilty for letting the system stand.

[nshanin]

"all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
Edmund Burke

The Tao Te Ching. Read it.

[Agent 008]

http://www.directaction.info/
and thats just animal rights, there is plenty of ELF stuff going on, some of these people may wear black spot some wear nike (urban camoflage if you will)

Every one isn't trying to fit in.

You know what I mean.

If in the 60s and the 70s it was a major force, now the major force is conformism.

[Lord hang man]

There is no us vs them there is just us, and the cultures and civilizations we have developed are the best that we have been able to do collectively as a species up to this point. We live in a multicultural society and we as individuals now have access to as much information as we can gather.



Bull shit it's not us and them you're right, it's Living and Dead, we can prevail over cultist overlords but not until the masses sing along.
untouchable truths
witness to asinine rules
regarding hatred and appreciation
and if a wall will fix it
then its a wall im building
not between us, but between us and them
now come on

That excerpt from a song is called Pink Floyd and tributes those who would band together as the wall Waters envisioned between himself and the drooling masses, not as any sort of feeling needed to be torn away to expose at core what the preacher lived for.

[bigfoot]

You know what I mean.

If in the 60s and the 70s it was a major force, now the major force is conformism.

in the 60's and 70's it was more shocking to the mainstream culture but they acheived very little.

In the 80's 90's and 00's activists have done WAY more. Little old ladies stomping on genetically modified feilds in the uk didn't shock anyone, we dont have GM in this country, we just dont allow it.

sure the iraq war wasn't stopped but 2million people marched against it, sure some of those people had dreadlocks but plenty were priests or accountants.

mabye we should define what counter culture means? if its all about having dread locks being vegan and smoking loads of dope ok.
but if its actually doing something that is deemed "bad" by "the man" then I'm happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with pensioners who only have tobacco in there pipes. the people with dreads staying at home listening to ratm on their ipods can fuck off, i dont care about them.

I read "the tao of pooh" once that was ok if you cant cope with the world and need to step back, I'm more of sun tzu man myself

[Agent 008]

sure the iraq war wasn't stopped but 2million people marched against it, sure some of those people had dreadlocks but plenty were priests or accountants.

I don't care what people look like. I prefer to judge people by what they say and do.

Maybe they just overhype it in history books, but it appears to me the anti-vietnam protests were much more massive than what we saw with the Iraq war. I still believe people care less about trying to change the way things are these days, especially with regards to fundamental changes.

[AsylumSeaker]

Pssst.

Encrypted wireless meshnets.

:D

...all that remains is how to populize building CPUs out of sand.

Woooord

[The Better Version]

Well there's a reason why the protests were more vicious in the 60's because kids actually had a reason to fight against it. If they didn't fight, then they would go to war....not even college could save you during those years.

And as far as your preference in judging others based on what they say and do is total bullshit. I don't have to know who you are or what you do to know that you judge people based on appearances. You don't want to judge because you feel it's unfair to the other person and perhaps it is, but judging others is simply a fact of life for all.

The one's who say they have transcended above judgement are the ones who are sick of the human race and want out of it. I hate people too and that includes myself. There are many things I say and do that I cannot possibly understand why and it used to drive me nuts until I just accepted the fact that it's in my genes to do certain things, such as judging others. Now that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to act upon my judgement towards others. For instance:

If I was in the ghettos at 3 in the morning and I saw a gangsta looking dude (Doesn't have to be black, just has to appear dangerous) then I will most certainly tense up and be prepared to fight or flight. That doesn't mean I'm going to attack him because despite my judgement of him, I'm aware that my prediction isn't 100 percent correct....but the end result is, I judged that person without even speaking a word. This is just intuition for purpose of survival.

I know what your response is going to be before you even post because I have seen this conversation a million and a half times as well as every other debate or insight on this forum and others. I like to think of life as this one giant sphere and no matter how much you try to deviate out of that sphere, you'll just come back in full circles.

People desperately want to believe they are different from others so they try to stand out via the counter-culture. But then there are others like many of us on the forum, who understand that the counter-culture movement is just another way to blend in with the crowd. So we seek another way of life, but then others follow because they have the same mindset and it just goes on and on and on. Everything is an unending cycle filled with the same old shit. Please don't try to disassociate yourself from those who start wars or spread peace. There's this enormous misconception that everyone has about the Macro and micro levels of life. They associate the Macro level with war and poverty, power and greed and the Micro with compassion and sharing. the only difference between the two is the scale of things. We still fight each other, love each other, sell and buy to each other, etc, just as the international community relates to others. We trade with some, fight with others, buddy up with someone, back stab others.

We're all the fucking same and it drives me crazy. Just once I want to see someone who won't react or do the same thing everyone else would. Just once I would like to truly deviate from this disgusting World. But alas I nor anyone else can't....at least for now. Who knows. That's just my five cents that no one will ever read because it's just too damn long....my bad.

[Rizzo in a box]

Well there's a reason why the protests were more vicious in the 60's because kids actually had a reason to fight against it. If they didn't fight, then they would go to war....not even college could save you during those years.

http://digitalrhetor.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/kent-famousphoto.jpg

You're right, not even a glorious institution like college could save the poor lost souls of the 60's...

But say, wait, aren't we fighting a war or two right now?

The one's who say they have transcended above judgement are the ones who are sick of the human race and want out of it.

Not really. Buddha wasn't into the whole hate thing, and neither was Jesus. We Bodhisattvas might find you a funny lot, but we're human, too. Even if we're gods.

There are many things I say and do that I cannot possibly understand why and it used to drive me nuts until I just accepted the fact that it's in my genes to do certain things, such as judging others. Now that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to act upon my judgement towards others. For instance:

If I was in the ghettos at 3 in the morning and I saw a gangsta looking dude (Doesn't have to be black, just has to appear dangerous) then I will most certainly tense up and be prepared to fight or flight. That doesn't mean I'm going to attack him because despite my judgement of him, I'm aware that my prediction isn't 100 percent correct....but the end result is, I judged that person without even speaking a word. This is just intuition for purpose of survival.

Those are called instincts. Not intuition.

I like to think of life as this one giant sphere and no matter how much you try to deviate out of that sphere, you'll just come back in full circles

This is, apparently a popular idea. However, no one has even ventured to try to describe the properties of this sphere. How big is it? What is it made of? These are serious, nonsense questions for yr deviant transcendent.

Just once I would like to truly deviate from this disgusting World.

The world is merely the reflection of our own inner state. You are, in fact, the one who is disgusting.

[JoePedo]

So counter culture can be:

Anarchy, drugs, rock and roll, overthrowing the govt

Or it can be

Classical music, town hall meetings, supporting law enforcement, wanting to make the govt have more power.

So if you have 70 people supporting the frst scenario (drugs, rock etc) and only 30 people supporting the second (town hall, law, etc) then the second becomes the counter culture

I would disagree.

Classical music and town hall meetings are fair game. In fact, in a very real way, classical music is the underpinning of the rave and trance countercultures (who the fuck do you think the early adopters of an electronic keyboard are?), and town hall meetings - both governmental and paragovernmental - are the hallmark of community organizers and similar extraestablishmentarian changemakers.

However, law and government are merely the violent coercive arm of culture. Because of this, supporting the enforcement of laws and the power of government can never... quite be counter to its own self.

Other than the fundamental construction of the enforcement of cultural homogenity, however...

[AsylumSeaker]

I would disagree.

Classical music and town hall meetings are fair game. In fact, in a very real way, classical music is the underpinning of the rave and trance countercultures (who the fuck do you think the early adopters of an electronic keyboard are?), and town hall meetings - both governmental and paragovernmental - are the hallmark of community organizers and similar extraestablishmentarian changemakers.

However, law and government are merely the violent coercive arm of culture. Because of this, supporting the enforcement of laws and the power of government can never... quite be counter to its own self.

Other than the fundamental construction of the enforcement of cultural homogenity, however...

I think what he means is that in a case where the majority of culture was made up of anarchic elements, a small group of people trying to organise themselves under laws would be considered a counterculture.

[LiquidIce]

Good to see some replies. About the non-conformity and conformity:

The drive for non-conformity is the idea that there are herds of sheeple, all dressed in the same cloths, and that you, buying some new shit, having a freaky hair-style and being a non-conformist is the way to go. It's about showing 'them', that you stand out, that you're outside the jurisdiction of their grey culture. You're part of the counterculture.
Wrong, everyone wants to stand out, everyone wants to be a non-conformist. Especially in a country like the US where team work isn't praised as much as individualism, there hardly are any conformists.

Also, conforming to certain rules has a metric fuckton of good effects. Look at feminism. It went too far. Feminists didn't notice that many of the old rules used to 'keep wimminz in teh kitchen' were actually in place to keep women safe, respected. Would you rather live in the first half of the 20th century where to fuck a women you'd have to rape her or buy her over with sweets and flowers for a year, or would you rather live in the 21st century where all you gotta do is go to a club, buy some drinks and act confident to get laid within an hour?

This may seem conservative, but it has something to do with respect and cheating and slutiness.

Also yes, I've read Nation of Rebels (which just the second title of The Rebel Sell ;) ), but I see I have to read it again. It had some good arguments to take apart the lie of the existence of a counterculture.

And Deadlegend - what I mean is that the counterculture - for example of the hippies - was not something different from the culture, it was just a part of the whole culture. It would better be described as a subculture of the US in the 60's. Most of the subculture of hippies was concerned about driving a love bus, taking drugs and having fun. As if in those ways one could change the injustice in the system. Sure, as Joe mentioned, some change has had its roots in the hippie subculture, but the aim of the whole culture was just to have fun under the slogan of righting the wrongs of the present system. Now look at how the old hippies changed the culture: are people more peaceful now? Are they more honest? Are they more loving of others?

[Agent 008]

The drive for non-conformity is the idea that there are herds of sheeple, all dressed in the same cloths, and that you, buying some new shit, having a freaky hair-style and being a non-conformist is the way to go. It's about showing 'them', that you stand out, that you're outside the jurisdiction of their grey culture. You're part of the counterculture.

That sounds like a naive, 'high-school' interpretation of non-conformity.

I haven't done any research on the subject, so maybe I am redefining the terms here; but to me, non-conformity is first of all keeping to your opinion, if you know it's right, even if you are left in the absolute minority; and not seeking approval from others (to an extent; this is, of course, an unachievable conditions - what I mean is not having it as one of the forces that drive you).

[DeadLegend]

^^hes just so caught up in the fshion and what not that he misses the bigger picture^^

[LiquidIce]

^ Having your views usually brings on the need to have others like you to talk to etc., the need to somehow organise/gather.

An example would be the punk subculture, but many others would do. They had views, pretty non-conformist views for their times. No future and what not. Wearing military boots and having a mohawk was about distinction. You were "in". Soon enough all the kids wore military boots and old leather jackets, because it was a sign of social status, being a non-conformist punk.

Deadlegend - what is this counterculture opposed to? You're saying that counterculture is about having a different opinion than the majority. Most 'rebels' have the same opinions that the majority has, thus most of them make the same mistakes their parents and grandparents did. Thus this counterculture rarely changes that things it is fighting with. As it is written in Nation of Rebels, the difference between dissent and deviance has become blurred. Bringing equal rights, for example - having meetings, making petitions doesn't have much to do with having wild sex, wearing hoodies and taking drugs. Having a different opinion than the majority doesn't constitute a whole counterculture, merely a subculture. Being a punk and drinking cheap wine isn't fighting the system. If you added thinking about bringing on positive change and drinking cheap wine and then doing something then it's useful action. Without the last part it's just caring for your social status.

[DeadLegend]

^^ but see what im saying is that it all depends on the current society. You have the idea in your head that the counterculture is punk rock, drugs, anarchy, etc, and that thats all that it can be. But like i tried explaining before, its not the fashion or drugs that make up the counter culture, its just there ideas and outlook on life. Like i said, counter culture could be classical music and golf. It just all depends on what the majority of society deems as the norm^^

Deadlegend - what is this counterculture opposed to? You're saying that counterculture is about having a different opinion than the majority
Well of course the counter culture is opposed to whatever the current majority of the society in question deems as the norm.And you say that most of them have the same opinion? I dont know that that is true, in fact, i dont think its true at all.


Ps.

I find it very awesome that there is someone on here that i can actually have a debate with where halfway through they dont start flaming. Its very cool and gives me hope in this site. Even though me and you dont look at this subject the same way, at least you can keep up a debate without throwing the word noob out and getting all pissy.

Thats why i gave you a thanks
Cheers brotha man

[LiquidIce]

Well, listening to classical music and/or studying Veblen is probably done only by a small majority. And they probably have different ideas and outlooks than the majority. They may oppose many ideas of the established culture, but they still wear cloths, drive cars, work. Some people see change as legislative action. What I mentioned earlier - speaking up, making petitions, meetings. Tweaking the current culture to better it.

However, what many people see as counterculture revolves around as being totally opposed to normal culture. Normal culture, they define, is having a 9-5 job, wearing good jeans and a good jacket. Having a family. Having taboo topics. There's a lot of this in American Beauty. The film portrays smoking weed and seducing a highschooler by a man in his 30's or 40's as countercultural, subversive, almost revolutionary. It also portrays him as a danger to 'the system' by what he is doing.

If you live in open societies then you're pretty lucky, because around here dressing really off the scale will probably land you in trouble or earn you loads of fucking glares and stares. Remember the Guevara craze? It showed how something seen as revolutionary sells great.

Maybe my point is that punks and hippies aren't the counterculture. They're just people looking to be different, to elevate their social status. Their ideas were sold to them along with their pins and boots. The real counterculture, in my humble opinion, would be people fighting true discrimination or something along those lines. Something great. Hippies wanted to spread the love. Did they manage it? To a small extent, when compared to their numbers and resources, they did. But most of the love they spread was focused on concerts and sex. I don't see an increase in pacifism or improvement in human nature, or even in society due to them. Their generation was all about love, but the number of divorces have increased. Crime didn't decrease. It's weird that this whole culture devoted to love and equality didn't make such a huge impact. The ones that actually tried organized action did win, but the ones that thought that taking LSD would free people didn't achieve much for the society. Sure, they had fun and love, but it was only momentary.

And mr. Deadlegend, I also appreciate a good debate, that's why I come here. Without a good debate you cannot right wrongs, right? During such a discussion I believe that both you and me reevaluate our knowledge, maybe find some errors and correct them? And that's what's great. Cheers dude.

[bigfoot]

the reason the vietnam protests were on a larger scale was because of the draft, that does not apply to todays war.

a lot of counter culture=over the counter culture
i.e. punks who just listen to music or hippys, but some of these people will be motivated in there sub cultures to do something really useful beyond hedonism

there are plenty of people who are "normal" i.e. mortgages, 9-life jobs who still manage to subvert mainstream "culture" they may go and hack down GM field trials in the dark of night

[Xhunkfish]

Or so they'd have you think. But they are weak, and we are fnord strong.

.

All hail.

[DeadLegend]

I think what he means is that in a case where the majority of culture was made up of anarchic elements, a small group of people trying to organise themselves under laws would be considered a counterculture.

Exactly


And what you said, liquid about people just trying to be different to elevate there social status.

I of course agree with them just trying to be different, but at the same time, some of the things the people do to be different, in my opnion lowers there social status or standing in the community.

Like if someone were to start doing drugs to be different, id say it would lower there standing in the community rather than raise it.


But let me take a stab at what your trying to say here:

There is no counter culture, because its just a part of the larger culture. And i guess i can see what your getting at if that is what your saying, but at the same time i definately think that there is a distinction between what is considered as the normal culture and the counter culture, even though both of them just make up something larger.

I think that as long as people have verying ideas and looks on life, there will always be a counter culture, though i do agree that at the same time it is just a part of the larger culture as a whole.




jeez man things are getting confusing...lol. I dunno if i even get what i just said, but fuck it, ill post it anyways, maybe you can make some sense of it.

[pickletacofan]

imo those who despise things like materalism, television, labels, closed mindedness and any other stereotype of conformity end up developing an anti social lifestyle. Which would make sense because chances are your opinion of whats wrong with society will simply project as your perception of most other people. You may or may not hate them, depends on how open minded and happy you are.

Which leads me to my point, being anti social is counter culture. If you're not social or working a lot you have plenty of time to do drugs, read books and expand your mind.

[LiquidIce]

Deadlegend:
There are few things that can cause your social status to fall and these would mostly surround the sexual area - zoophilia, pedophilia, dendrophilia and what not. But doing drugs or stealing stuff won't affect that because so many people do that that it just doesn't matter.Sure, some people will dislike you, but others will start to like you, people from BLTC and BI mainly.

Defining the culture and counterculture requires for the culture to be something that is homogeneous, something that is uniform and the same. That's what most of the anticonsumerist, antisociety and antisquare books try to sell to you - that the culture is filled with one dimensional people, all wearing gray suits, all living pitiful lives, all driving the same cars, while the counterculture is composed of people who make their own cloths, drive SUVs (offroad, so rebellious) and listen to alternative music or use alternative medicine. But we know that it isn't like that? That's why I'm saying there is no difference between a culture and it's counterculture - a redneck is bound to have a totally different culture and many values opposed to the New York bourgeois - yet there is no talks of rednecks being the counterculture with their tricks, inbreeding and faith in Buddy Jesus?

Thus it is why I think that there is no counterculture, it's just subgroups of the same culture. Sure, we have many things associated with the counterculture, but I'd have to write a lot to cover some of them, so just reply if you want me to do this (stuff concerning alternative medicine, education system or even economic solutions).

pickletacofan: are you romanticizing anti-social behavior?

If materialism is a stereotype of conformity then why does belonging to the counterculture need vast amounts of money? For the new cloths, for drugs and for other stuff? My point is that we are all materialistic since we live in a material world, the only way we can be less materialistic is if we get away from society (which is not anti-social, it's just seeking solitude). Also, for someone who is talking about being open minded and not using labels you essentially label social people as lesser, people who can't expand their minds of their work (probably hard and honest work).

What about being social, working and expanding your mind? You doubt that such people exist? You can still read books, no ones banning your from them. And taking drugs depends on ones desires, as I've said - drugs aren't some magickal window into spirituality and growth, they may help or they may not help, but the fact remains that they're essential for it.

And one more thing: being anti-social is fucked up. Sure, it's cool to be the rebel, the quiet dark and unhappy guy (lol, being anti-social would be like emo, so you're saying that emos expand their minds and are part of the counterculture? Or are they just superconsumers?) but society loses on this. What's the point of knowing/thinking what's wrong with society if you don't try to improve it? That's just the first step to being a bitter and grumpy grandpa. This is the equivalent of bitching and moaning and not doing anything, which means you're just a lazy fuckhole trying to be alternative.

[pickletacofan]

Deadlegend:
pickletacofan: are you romanticizing anti-social behavior?

If materialism is a stereotype of conformity then why does belonging to the counterculture need vast amounts of money? For the new cloths, for drugs and for other stuff? My point is that we are all materialistic since we live in a material world, the only way we can be less materialistic is if we get away from society (which is not anti-social, it's just seeking solitude). Also, for someone who is talking about being open minded and not using labels you essentially label social people as lesser, people who can't expand their minds of their work (probably hard and honest work).

What about being social, working and expanding your mind? You doubt that such people exist? You can still read books, no ones banning your from them. And taking drugs depends on ones desires, as I've said - drugs aren't some magickal window into spirituality and growth, they may help or they may not help, but the fact remains that they're essential for it.

And one more thing: being anti-social is fucked up. Sure, it's cool to be the rebel, the quiet dark and unhappy guy (lol, being anti-social would be like emo, so you're saying that emos expand their minds and are part of the counterculture? Or are they just superconsumers?) but society loses on this. What's the point of knowing/thinking what's wrong with society if you don't try to improve it? That's just the first step to being a bitter and grumpy grandpa. This is the equivalent of bitching and moaning and not doing anything, which means you're just a lazy fuckhole trying to be alternative.

imo you're pulling hairs with the whole materialism talk. Yes we are all materialistic to some degree, but those who spend carelessly end up in debt. Our current economic crisis was caused by not just banks, but people who could no longer afford their mortgage payments. If these same people spent less on television, clothes and things they perceived necessary, chances are the overall default rate would be about 50% less. So yes, I look at myself as more knowledgeable and somewhat better to those who end up with a mountain of debt due to materialism.

but I don't view social people as lesser--I'm not sure where you interpreted that. Infact I spend about 10% of my time being social with people so its hard for me to think of someone as lesser when I'm not even around them most hours.

If you couldn't tell (which I'm sure you have) I shared my opinion because its a reflection of my life. I use to be really social in high school but during college I realized I'm more content with solitude. In my first year or so of being a loner I hated people but now I have come to not hate nor love them. Just show no interest. I'm a big believer in taking a path to a-pathy :)

I'm also a bit narcissistic but in the good way. I think narcissism gets a bad rep in this country probably because it is counter culture. I don't go out of my way to royally fuck over others at my expense. But I also don't party or hangout much because I always worry that I don't know enough about a certain subject. I only care about myself when it comes to progressing my knowledge. If I'm at my friends house getting stoned he will turn on the television, I usually leave early he will say "why are you leaving you just got here" I then politely tell him I would rather read or do something more productive. I don't view him as superior, I view myself as inferior for not spending my time reading.

[Lux Aeterna]

Materialism: the view that "stuff" makes us happy. The more "stuff" we have, the happier we are. You get "stuff" with money, so it follows that the more money we have, the happier we can be. People in the past weren't as happy as us, because they didn't have as much stuff. In the future we will be happier, because we will have more, better stuff. Working is a good idea, because then we can buy stuff. If you work really hard, you might even get a promotion, and then you can get even more stuff!!

The people who come up with new stuff can sell it to us. Banks lend us money to buy stuff, and then we pay them back double. So we have to do twice as much work. But thats ok, because at least we got the stuff now.

The bigger the house, the better. Mortgages are a good idea. Even though, again, you have to pay back at least double the money, and you must work for about 30 years, it's worth it because you've got a big house and lots of stuff.

I'm really happy, because I've got lots of stuff. I get two days a week to enjoy my stuff and relax from work. Usually, on these days, I will go out and buy some more stuff. Or watch some TV. Commercials always show me that there is more stuff out there that I haven't bought. I can never get enough stuff.

Oh how I love stuff! How did it take us 200,000 years to realise how good it is!! Our poor ancestors. If only they could have known happiness....

[Agent 008]

Materialism: the view that "stuff" makes us happy. The more "stuff" we have, the happier we are. You get "stuff" with money, so it follows that the more money we have, the happier we can be. People in the past weren't as happy as us, because they didn't have as much stuff. In the future we will be happier, because we will have more, better stuff. Working is a good idea, because then we can buy stuff. If you work really hard, you might even get a promotion, and then you can get even more stuff!!

The people who come up with new stuff can sell it to us. Banks lend us money to buy stuff, and then we pay them back double. So we have to do twice as much work. But thats ok, because at least we got the stuff now.

The bigger the house, the better. Mortgages are a good idea. Even though, again, you have to pay back at least double the money, and you must work for about 30 years, it's worth it because you've got a big house and lots of stuff.

I'm really happy, because I've got lots of stuff. I get two days a week to enjoy my stuff and relax from work. Usually, on these days, I will go out and buy some more stuff. Or watch some TV. Commercials always show me that there is more stuff out there that I haven't bought. I can never get enough stuff.

Oh how I love stuff! How did it take us 200,000 years to realise how good it is!! Our poor ancestors. If only they could have known happiness....

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