Independence

[Centipede2]

Are some people just independence/strong while others dependent/weak?

I think the greatest psychological achievement one can have is independence. This is so great because it combines self-reliance, with self-love, with self-trust as well as living in relationships where although at times dependent with someone else, always able to express their independence and individuality, this seems like strength. In this way someone lives 100% of their lives as exactly who they are and what they think - and they bring out their inner selves and live the world as they are.

I think a lot of time people just don't trust themselves. They feel like they are inexperienced or incomplete and thus act only off others conceptions, idealizations, and pictures of the world. Sometimes people suppress their micro-thoughts and confuse themselves as to what their real opinion is. I think this can lead to depression - if someone feels independent then they feel weak and the energy spent on learning and fussing around with being a dependent creates suffering and energy loss (depression)...but where does strength come from?

Is independence simply biological? Is it the amount of testosterone someone has in their body or some aggression/confidence part of the brain? My mom has always been a "strong" independent (too independent, she's controlling) while my dad has always been the submissive dependent (too submissive - it's lead to extreme passive aggressiveness i.e. cheating).


...is it learn able?...I know I've asked this question before but would LSD really make someone independent, is this because they know themselves so well they know when their selves are being suppressed and thus recognize it and act accordingly? Can strength be gained from inner-LSD work?

[Centipede2]

Tja6_h4lT6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tja6_h4lT6A

relevant?

(ugh I fail at youtube tags)

[porqueno los dos?]

Particularly if it's a product of your reasoning.

Also, 46&2 is about "evolution" so to speak. As a species that is...not really independance.

[Syphilis]

Are some people just independence/strong while others dependent/weak?
Yes. Might be partially biological, but it's also shaped by experiences and through practice.

Can strength be gained from inner-LSD work?
No. Drugs don't do anything, they change your brain chemistry for a few hours and then wear off.

[dirtyangelswithfaces]

No. Drugs don't do anything, they change your brain chemistry for a few hours and then wear off.

Chemically speaking that's true, although I must say a trip with good set and setting can definitely change some of your conceptions about yourself and your life.
Just the same as surviving a plane crash doesn't chemically alter your thoughts but it can make more "thankful of what you got" longterm.
Bad parallel, I know...

[Centipede2]

Particularly if it's a product of your reasoning.

Also, 46&2 is about "evolution" so to speak. As a species that is...not really independance.


I like the reasoning part. That's just one part of 46 & 2, the rest is about incorporating your "shadow" or unconscious mind into your everyday life least it be projected onto other people or repressed inside yourself. Why I thought this was relevant was because if you know your shadow, I think that is all of self-knowledge, and once you have that then you can be independent because you always know what is "you" and what isn't - and when you're being repressed you can identify it and stand up for yourself. Also, I made an assumption in reading that LSD brings out your shadow for yourself to explore...

I guess for the truely independent person I would have to learn this for myself, so the "Psychology of Independence" and "biology of independence" is something I guess I have to explore. I'm not dreaming and I'm not in heaven, but thanks for the compliment.

[Emulated_Reality]

Hey Centipede, I keep running into your posts!

I'm sure that when you say 'independent' you mean the willingness to believe in yourself or a self assured attitude. However, I would still like to point one thing out:

To believe yourself as truly independent, as in separate and not reliant upon others, would be no more than cognitive dissonance. There is simply no way for a person to not rely on others for their survival. Granted, there are people who are more independent than others, but even this is menial in the end. If one were to be truly independent, he would not use the internet unless he was making his own computer parts, making his own internet provider, and making his own electricity :D. And what of food? Does an independent person hunt and kill his cow every time he wants a happy meal?

tl/dr- no one is really independent and any degree of separation is meaningless in the end. Just be happily satisfied with your co-dependance or go live in a woods ;).

[Ambient]

A decent contemplation that fit in well with the tool/jung.

I think that as usual we must understand exactly what it is we are talking about; let me take a stab in the dark.

The independence you speak of is perhaps a psychological independence. Perhaps the notion you set forth is the argument against dependence. For instance many people may rely on psychoactive substances to aleviate or subliminate their existence, perhaps the same could be said for organised religion. Ultamitly this is immersive an unfruitive, and in the sole paradigm of consciousness dependence is something we should strive to overcome and transcend.

That being said the nature of the human entity is that of the neophyte; the new human is born largley without knowledge and wisdom and therefore these are attained qualities. This means we are by neccesity inter-dependent on other entities both living and non-living to stimulate and develop consciousness and all that this entails i.e. "Shadow" elements.

Freedom from reaction and bondage is known as liberation; this liberation is a certain kind of independence but is not exempt from the fact that to live and survive we are engaged in inter-dependence.

P.S The 46&2 thing was quite interesting; ive contemplated about humans ability to inherit knowledge and wisdom biologically [genetically].

[Darian808]

Damn, you must have put a lot of thought into this. Personally I believe in behaviorism in that almost everything we do is a learned behavior. So people are mentally strong and independent because they were born into certain situations where they had to grow up and be a fucking man.

[Mor3BL7]

hands up, shorty wen u party wif me, we gwan way past quarta to freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[refugee]

I pay my own bills, have a job I got on my own, and have no immediate family to back me up in a bad situation, I'm about as independent as you can get.

[Ambient]

I pay my own bills, have a job I got on my own, and have no immediate family to back me up in a bad situation, I'm about as independent as you can get.

I lold to my hearts content; no offense intended. :rolleyes:

[refugee]

I lold to my hearts content; no offense intended. :rolleyes:

i explained a different type of independence but im glad you enjoyed it kid

[Ambient]

i explained a different type of independence but im glad you enjoyed it kid

Cheers bro :)

Props for doing well for yourself and being self-sufficient. Hopefully in time you will realize that complete independence is an illusion :)

I'm about as independent as you can get

[refugee]

Cheers bro :)

Props for doing well for yourself and being self-sufficient. Hopefully in time you will realize that complete independence is an illusion :)

if you live in mainstream society, you will never be independent, if you drive a car, you are dependent, if you rent a house, you are dependent. That's why people who think they are "free" are hilarious, because until we become completely self sufficient, you can not be free and fully independent. but it is possible and far from just an illusion

[EllisD]

so im guessing confidence plays a big role in independence...
anyways im 23 still living with parents im so lazy and shit, i lived in an apartment for like a year, was with friends, i was too messy to live with them :p
but it felt great being away from my parents....
yea im just rambling and bored

[Manifesto]

No. Drugs don't do anything, they change your brain chemistry for a few hours and then wear off.

Yes, but the experience and the knowledge gained does not wear off. This statement is indicative of someone who has never taken LSD. Anyone who takes it will have a permanently life changing experience, like it or not. This need not even be argued.

[EllisD]

Yes, but the experience and the knowledge gained does not wear off. This statement is indicative of someone who has never taken LSD. Anyone who takes it will have a permanently life changing experience, like it or not. This need not even be argued.

well put manifesto
+1

[Manifesto]

well put manifesto
+1

I like your username +1

[EllisD]

I like your username +1

Thanks yea, ellis is my last name and the D just made it a bad ass nickname plus people in highschool thought i was just crazy like the drug i think hah.

[Ambient]

Yes, but the experience and the knowledge gained does not wear off. This statement is indicative of someone who has never taken LSD. Anyone who takes it will have a permanently life changing experience, like it or not. This need not even be argued.

In my oppinion anything that can be attained with drugs, can also be attained without; albeit in due time.

I understand what ya mean though.

[Raptor Ribs]

In my oppinion anything that can be attained with drugs, can also be attained without; albeit in due time.

I understand what ya mean though.

Bullshit. Time can't relieve pain. Time can't make you see crazy purple elephants. Time can't raise your testosterone levels by 1000%. Only drugs can.

Oh? Thats not what you meant?

Like the taste of your own medicine you literal cunt?

[EllisD]

yea I believe there are states unachievable without drugs with meditation as an exception.

[Emulated_Reality]

if you live in mainstream society, you will never be independent, if you drive a car, you are dependent, if you rent a house, you are dependent. That's why people who think they are "free" are hilarious, because until we become completely self sufficient, you can not be free and fully independent. but it is possible and far from just an illusion

Right, which is exactly what I said.

Bullshit. Time can't relieve pain. Time can't make you see crazy purple elephants. Time can't raise your testosterone levels by 1000%. Only drugs can.

Oh? Thats not what you meant?

Like the taste of your own medicine you literal cunt?

Fucking Troll

[Raptor Ribs]

I'm not trolling, I was making a point.

http://zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=838860&postcount=72

[Nachismo]

Everyone will always have to depend on outside conditions (people & environment) to varying degrees. Through different experiences, people realize that they can learn to depend on themselves.

With discipline, they can get better at making little decisions that start to add up in a big way. Since they study how their decisions effect their goals, things become easier this way.

Ultimately the indepedance they earn gives them the confidence of knowing no matter what decisions they make, their experience and skill will put them in a stronger position afterward.

[Resign the King]

Yes, but the experience and the knowledge gained does not wear off. This statement is indicative of someone who has never taken LSD. Anyone who takes it will have a permanently life changing experience, like it or not. This need not even be argued.

Be careful about absolute statements like that.

[Ambient]

Bullshit. Time can't relieve pain. Time can't make you see crazy purple elephants. Time can't raise your testosterone levels by 1000%. Only drugs can.

Oh? Thats not what you meant?

Like the taste of your own medicine you literal cunt?

Well actually if you look at my statement, you will see the crux of my argument was not "time".

I did not say "Anything that can be achieved with drugs can be achieved with time", I said time is a plausible factor; but not the primary one.

The crux of my argument is that anything that can be experienced by the mind via drugs, can also be experienced by the mind on its own accord, by its own merits; independantly of psychoactive substances persay.

You see to the mind the psychoactive substance, a neuro-transmitter of sorts that stimulates different neuro-transmitters within the body at different levels; that is all.

For instance look at the hallucinogenic point. Actually if one deprives the mind of sleep over a period of time then it is quite plausible that one will experience hallucinations. Similarly if one chooses to engage in sleep and is capable of lucid dreaming- having a certain degree of consciousness whilst dreaming, he or she may be able to "visualise" or visually percieve perhaps voulantarily or invoulantarily.

Here we can see a fairly decent argument for drugless psychonautical activity; that we may have greater privy over what we are percieving. Certainly "crazy purple elephants" are on the table, and are possible or at least plasusible.

The mind has the ability to aleviate pain, both material pain and particularly spiritual pain; pain outside of sense gratification i.e. suffering. Im only speculating on this point but I presume the mind and the body has the ability to overcome and alieviate things such as headaches, sore stoumachs, pathogenic agents etc; at least the symptoms of pain (after all pain is pretty much a symtop of some biological activity).

The human mind can raise or depreciate testoterone levels I would say. Actually tesoterone levels is primarily under the duristiction of the automated body and mind; this is certainly the case originally or constitutionally. For example a male may have a certain level of testosterone when he is five years old (a low level). As he ages through adolescance, his testosterone levels may grow by say 500%-1000% ( 1000% being the sstatistic you cited).

This is a natural occurance under the duristiction of the mind.

This phenomenon is called "puberty" and as I can only imagine; is what you are currently unndergoing.

:)

Hows that ya figurative cunt?

[Raptor Ribs]

Wow. Way to waste time you idiot. I know what you meant. Apparently what I did went over your head. You seriously must have a learning disorder.

[Emulated_Reality]

Wow. Way to waste time you idiot. I know what you meant. Apparently what I did went over your head. You seriously must have a learning disorder.

Said the poster that trolls every single thread he posts in. Trust me you insignificant cunt, you are going over no ones head, ever.

[Raptor Ribs]

Said the poster that trolls every single thread he posts in. Trust me you insignificant cunt, you are going over no ones head, ever.

Ohh, I get it now. You're someones alternate account. Whats the matter? To scared to talk to me through your real internet account?! LOL.

Pathetic.

[Emulated_Reality]

Ohh, I get it now. You're someones alternate account. Whats the matter? To scared to talk to me through your real internet account?! LOL.

Pathetic.

And what would give you that idea? Wisen up, I just don't like you because I have never found a post by you that contributes anything at all worth anyone's time. Idiot.

[Raptor Ribs]

And what would give you that idea? Wisen up, I just don't like you because I have never found a post by you that contributes anything at all worth anyone's time. Idiot.

lol. You're a peasent. And yet you seem to have a beef with me. You haven't been here long enough to say I don't contribute.

You've got 127 posts. You're a fucking major noob.

But not really though, because its obvious you're just someones troll account.

E: I wonder who you are. Primary suspects are IWD, and Killallthewhiteman420.

Coward.

[Emulated_Reality]

lol. You're a peasent. And yet you seem to have a beef with me. You haven't been here long enough to say I don't contribute.

You've got 127 posts. You're a fucking major noob.

But not really though, because its obvious you're just someones troll account.

As I told you in the last thread you de-railed by trolling me, I was a part of &T for longer than you knew what a BBS was. Your higher post count is due to your terrible trolling and off topic posts. You are a terrible poster, and even the ACTUAL nubs on here can tell that you are worthless. Your just lucky the mods don't pay attention as much as I do.

Please contribute to the thread topic or move on. (And yes I realize I'm feeding a troll).

[Raptor Ribs]

As I told you in the last thread you de-railed by trolling me, I was a part of &T for longer than you knew what a BBS was. Your higher post count is due to your terrible trolling and off topic posts. You are a terrible poster, and even the ACTUAL nubs on here can tell that you are worthless. Your just lucky the mods don't pay attention as much as I do.

Please contribute to the thread topic or move on. (And yes I realize I'm feeding a troll).

LOL. Thats funny. You basically admit you're trolling, "I was a part of &T for longer than you knew what a BBS was", implies that this is obviously an alternate account as you have 128 posts.

So right, you're trolling with a multiple account, and accuse me of being a bad poster without any proof. Not to mention the fact that you are such a coward you can't even confront me with your real account. You're so pathetic its hilarious.

[Emulated_Reality]

LOL. Thats funny. You basically admit you're trolling, "I was a part of &T for longer than you knew what a BBS was", implies that this is obviously an alternate account as you have 128 posts.

So right, you're trolling with a multiple account, and accuse me of being a bad poster without any proof. Not to mention the fact that you are such a coward you can't even confront me with your real account. You're so pathetic its hilarious.

Well then, just because your inability to use logic I will explain. I had an account on &T, which is a different forum, and now I have one on Zoklet. This is my only Zoklet account and I used a different username than I did on &T. Your entire argument is now moot. Die in a fire.

*last post to you*

[threat]

Independence can have different degrees to it. In one sense it can be personal, like being able to support yourself financially, keeping yourself healthy, cleaning up after yourself and being able to make your own decisions.
On another level, our survivability depends on environmental factors which are mostly out of our control. Such as temperature and natural causes.

The personal independence should be sought after, unless someone suffers from a disability. Genetics and biology does have alot to do with it. If your parents and their parents were lazy and incompetent you will have a high tendency to follow their path. However with the right environment and social influences I believe the odds can be swayed.

[Ambient]

Independence can have different degrees to it. In one sense it can be personal, like being able to support yourself financially, keeping yourself healthy, cleaning up after yourself and being able to make your own decisions.
On another level, our survivability depends on environmental factors which are mostly out of our control. Such as temperature and natural causes.

The personal independence should be sought after, unless someone suffers from a disability. Genetics and biology does have alot to do with it. If your parents and their parents were lazy and incompetent you will have a high tendency to follow their path. However with the right environment and social influences I believe the odds can be swayed.

Ultimatly there is no distinction; there is no ultimate independence. Just to play devils advocate; you have cited financial, hygeinic and possible aesthetic "independence" as a positive thing. Then you have made the citation that under the enviromental or "nature" cause we are not independent.

Let us take a look at finance: What is money? Money is a medium of exchange, it is pliable, duplicatable, maleable; it is essentially a representation of actual resources; nature that is!

I would put forward that if one can survive within an artificially inflated economic system, that is not in sync with the operation of nature then you would have an economy that is different in principal to the principals of nature. Mainly this is to say that some false assumptions are made:

A)If i can earn enough money for myself and possibly my dependants in terms of gratification of the nessacary sensation and plausibly desires; then I am truely independant.

B)The conclusion then becomes that if I have the money, then I have the means.

This is ultimatly an illusion, because everything is natural or derived from nature. This is the work of appearance because at best this can be upheld for a temporary period of time.

Consider this: The individual is independent only because of the society; when the society exists independantly of nature (in appearance) the individual can operate independantly vicarously through the society.

Of course ultimatly for health, hygiene, wellbeing, nutrition, housing, technology etc... everything! Everything is natural, and everything is inter-dependent within nature; nobody can exist outside nature; they can only operate under the illusion that one is doing so.

Even your body is present only because of nature, it is being maintained because of nature.

Absolutly nothing is independent!