Horoscopes/Readings: Who Seriously Believes This Stuff Anymore?

[Toothlessjoe]

[Just a little background for those who don't know me: http://zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=46842, that is my general stance on this area and as such, I'm obviously looking for in-depth, mature discussion on the subject to perhaps bring me round to the other side.]


Horoscopes, tarot cards, and other readings. We all know how it works: they light an incense stick, throw some gems around, the planets shift, the stars align, the spirits talk, the unicorns go clip-clop, you lose a few dollars and get a reading for the week etc.

Really though, this is what I want to know: How does anyone who is partially educated believe this shit?

I'm sorry that was less than tactful but none of this makes any sense to me. These readings are little more than blanket statements! For those of you who do not know what those are, I'll explain:


The term comes from the age old addage of sweeping things under the carpet or as it has evolved: putting a blanket over it. Covering something up. It is a statement that is so vague that it avoids any specific assertions and is so inclusive in its terms of reference, that it can mean anything and everything depending how gullible you are, and how desperate you are to apply it to your life.

Basically, they're designed to sound accurate because you're the one applying accuracy to them by relating them to situations in your life. These are some examples from horoscopes from a series of this weeks local papers, national papers and random websites, and I'm going to leave out the star signs on purpose. See if you think you could possibly apply one or more of these to your week at the end of it:


Working as part of a team right now can help you to achieve a personal goal. Lucky money stars will help you to get one step closer to making a dream purchase. Sparks are set to fly on the love scene; for some, it means a long overdue ending and for others, an exciting new beginning.


This week, the stars are giving you a magic mirror to help make an important decision regarding a significant person in your life; all you have to do is look. At work, try not to get caught up with the resident drama queen as those in superior positions are keeping a close eye!

Lucky Numbers: 2 23 24 28 29 40


This week's scenario is highlighted by a last minute change of plans. If you feel that your public life has changed drastically, you're probably correct. You may find it difficult to change pace in an emergency. You could feel as if you're walking to the edge of a cliff. Try not to express an overly emotional reaction to people, especially those who are associated with your career. Eventually you'll see the advantage of the new conditions. Uncertainties are part of the growth process. Have secret or quiet conversations with someone on the job to ensure that you're headed in the right direction.


Changes in the company you keep, and in what you want from friendships, could be triggered by the Sun’s eclipse this week. New horizons beckon, so do not let work commitments take up too much energy and time. Someone you meet, or with whom you share a new ambition, could hold the key to emotional fulfilment and career success.


A clash between your ruler Venus and restrictive Saturn could make you feel that the time has come to give up on a project you no longer have your heart in and change course. The Sun’s eclipse on Wednesday suggests that you are right, so do not be afraid to do so. You will find the new way forward that you have been hoping for if you have faith in yourself.


I think that should be enough for now. Now you can apply all of those to a whole host of situations that will no doubt crop up this week. It's very, very simple psychology apllied to some well published social statistics. How can all of them apply if they're a selection of different star signs? You can't be every sign.

Obviously using incense sticks, gems, bat droppings, crystals and picture cards gives the process a new flavor and makes it seem different but it's just simply not.


I think this is a complete con. It's taking money from gullible people who should know better having been through some form of education in their lives. There is no proven scientific method in the processes (as there tends not to be with things of this ilk) and frankly anyone with a good command of the English language, a fairly creative imagination, the Internet, and a basic understanding of the human psyche could do this.

Please, prove me wrong if you can. I'd love to hear your arguments for this practice.

[TripleDot]

Not so much horoscopes, but I do believe in Tarot, and especially the Chinese I-Ching.

I would never charge money if asked to do an I-Ching reading, and I personally think anyone who wants to charge money for a Tarot reading or otherwise is a con.

As for why I believe in it? I have gotten some readings from the I-Ching in particular that could only be translated very few ways, each way ending the same ultimately. And guess what? They all proved true.

A lot of the generic Tarot/horoscope readers are just con men, who apply a vast range of symbols and meanings to the cards, to make sure that anything could relate. Someone who knows what they are doing could examine the symbols a bit further and give slight specifics.

And there you have, My point of view.

[Toothlessjoe]

As for why I believe in it? I have gotten some readings from the I-Ching in particular that could only be translated very few ways, each way ending the same ultimately. And guess what? They all proved true.

Could you give some examples if you don't mind? I'd be quick to chalk that down to "if you look hard enough, you'll find it".

[TripleDot]

Could you give some examples if you don't mind? I'd be quick to chalk that down to "if you look hard enough, you'll find it".Well, I would, truly, but I am at my gf's house, it's 4 am so I can't wake my roomy up, and it's an hour bus ride to find the ones I have written down just for this purpose. Possibly tomorrow when I get home.

I do remember one telling me that I would lose my job from pressure from above (Head management) which happened a week later, but that's not very specific.

Plus, I don't give two shits what you care if it works or not.

[Syphilis]

People who believe that kind of stuff make me lol.

[TripleDot]

People who believe that kind of stuff make me lol.Well, then laugh away good sir, I'm not stopping you.

[Toothlessjoe]

Plus, I don't give two shits what you care if it works or not.

Hey now, calm down. I'm looking for constructive, adult conversation. So let's try to leave the shit flinging aside just because I'm questioning something you feel strongly about.

I don't argue against the fact that blanket statements have application, I'm just looking for someone to prove to me that these practices I've outlined in the OP aren't just "dressed up" blanket statements but actually have a provable method, application, reliable and consistant results etc that set them aside from what I've said they are.

Here is a reading I was given from Greyfox:


A couple of things jumped out. One, a "sense of integration and balance" on your part--if you had been considering taking a chance--going out on a limb, so to speak--this is as good a time as any, Mercury retrograde notwithstanding. That is, your intuition and logic are working well together. This will help you manifest a long overdue change, which is coming--embrace it. The change mnay be in terms of your social life (one caveat--don't get so carried awayw ithr omance that you let everyday stuff slide). In terms of career, think like an entrepreneur, not a wage-earner. You would probably do better working for yourself than for others.

Finally, a warning--a threat to your health. Here are some rhetorical questions for you to consider--do you live in an area that is environmentally unhealthy (which is most of the East Coast, especially the Boston to DC megapolis and the Reading Prong)? Do you take undue risks on a regular basis? Do you indulge in consuming toxic substances (refined sugar; nicotine; alcohol; salt; trans-fats; illicit drugs--to name a few)--or in manifesting toxic emotions (fear, and the masks which fear wears, such as anger and envy)?

Now, while this could've been made more accurate given I post personal information on this forum that a good 30 minutes may well dig up, it is, I feel, still very vague and readily applicable to anyone. I'm confident many of you could read that and pretend it's a personal reading for yourself and find it accurate somewhat.

[Mankonaut X]

Horoscopes? Pah!
I hope that clears the whole issue up.
For me, back in my conspiracy days, I lost any interest I had in horoscopes when I read that the star readings they take are from misaligned (3000 years' worth at this point) star charts. So even if it was real, it'd still be wrong.

[ArmsMerchant]

TJ is using the old straw man argument, wherein you argue against a position you deliberately make weak. In this case, he is talking about sun sign astrology, which is--which HAS to be--very general. Horoscopes based on a specific natal chart are more accurate.

Being a double Libra (that is, Libra is both my sun sign and my moon sign), the newspaper horoscopes tend to be rather more accurate. Every day, I check my horoscope and the "scientific" weather forecast--the horoscope is almost always more accurate and helpful.

[Toothlessjoe]

TJ is using the old straw man argument, wherein you argue against a position you deliberately make weak.

Perhaps you can point out exactly where I've done this and detail it for me? I'm not seeing that conclusion. The only reason there is an argument is because the whole premise is weak to begin with.

Your reading you did for me is just as vague. Why is that? Surely it was a different kind right? A more accurate kind?

[ArmsMerchant]

Um, so now you are complaining because the general reading I did for you was. . . .general?

[zuperxtreme]

Who believes it? Well... lets just say lots of people.

[0omnidirectional]

Horoscopes, tarot cards, and other readings. We all know how it works: they light an incense stick, throw some gems around, the planets shift, the stars align, the spirits talk, the unicorns go clip-clop, you lose a few dollars and get a reading for the week etc.

Well, that's not how I know it to work.
Right out of the gate, you argument is flawed.
Again.


Really though, this is what I want to know: How does anyone who is partially educated believe this shit?

*Partially educated human raises hand*

Your straw man? I don't think many people believe that "shit".
However, the potential within the tarot and astrology for personal exploration, understanding, and growth through the relation of these archetypes to the individual, I do believe in.


I'm sorry that was less than tactful but none of this makes any sense to me. These readings are little more than blanket statements! For those of you who do not know what those are, I'll explain:


The term comes from the age old addage of sweeping things under the carpet or as it has evolved: putting a blanket over it. Covering something up. It is a statement that is so vague that it avoids any specific assertions and is so inclusive in its terms of reference, that it can mean anything and everything depending how gullible you are, and how desperate you are to apply it to your life.


From the Thoth tarot deck:

Three of Wands: Virtue. Established strength. Success after struggle. Pride and arrogance. Realization of hope.

Sure this idea can go in many different directions, be related to many different things, but the general idea is still the same.

"it can mean anything and everything". No, I think the general meaning is dealing with Virtue. Sure there are many links leaving from this hub, yet still Virtue is the ultimate hub for this shade of meaning.

There are many different methods of card spreads. When there are many different hubs of general ideas within several categories (locations), you can form a far larger general meaning. When shuffled and interpreted properly, there will be one general meaning that can be looked at in multiple ways. When the person is open to the whole process, they will normally find relevance psychologically. And obviously your psychic life flows over to physically doing things life.


Basically, they're designed to sound accurate because you're the one applying accuracy to them by relating them to situations in your life. These are some examples from horoscopes from a series of this weeks local papers, national papers and random websites, and I'm going to leave out the star signs on purpose. See if you think you could possibly apply one or more of these to your week at the end of it:


Horoscopes, not entirely useless, but pretty close for me.

I'm sure if you actually learned the (pseudo) science of astrology, you could make far better weekly forecast for yourself. When you're just doing general statement that millions of people are going to read, it can't be nearly as in-depth as it should be for an individual. Have you ever paid an astrologer for a reading? You seem to pretend like you know what you're talking about, but that is probably not what an honest astrologer would do if he was giving an individual forecast.


I think that should be enough for now. Now you can apply all of those to a whole host of situations that will no doubt crop up this week. It's very, very simple psychology apllied to some well published social statistics. How can all of them apply if they're a selection of different star signs? You can't be every sign.

Hmm, that's funny. Only one of them applied to me with any degree of accuracy:

"Changes in the company you keep, and in what you want from friendships, could be triggered by the Sun’s eclipse this week. "

Which one was this for, if you remember.

Holey shit, I just googled it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/horoscopes/5851472/Horoscopes-the-week-ahead-from-18-July.html

Virgo

Aug 24-Sep 23

birthday: sep 16

Is that like a punch in the face to your whole argument or what?


Obviously using incense sticks, gems, bat droppings, crystals and picture cards gives the process a new flavor and makes it seem different but it's just simply not.


Use what I said earlier with the tarot cards and apply it to this.
Degrees of difference within the same One.


I think this is a complete con. It's taking money from gullible people who should know better having been through some form of education in their lives. There is no proven scientific method in the processes (as there tends not to be with things of this ilk) and frankly anyone with a good command of the English language, a fairly creative imagination, the Internet, and a basic understanding of the human psyche could do this.

Please, prove me wrong if you can. I'd love to hear your arguments for this practice.

Well, what do you think now that you've received all this new information.

[Mr.Happy]

I received a reading from Greyfox and didn't find it particularly accurate. I did find that it reflected the content of a few misinformative posts I'd made over the last week or so though. Peculiar.

If readings are accurate in any way, it's because of unusual mental prescience (not psychic) of the reader and the "I want it to be true" attitude of the readee. Self-fulfilling prophecies; if a horoscope or other reading says you're due a change in your love life, you'll be more highly attentive to changes like that and will falsely attribute it to the psychic insight of the reader.

Such is my opinion, anyway.

[Lysergic Rain]

Penn & Teller explain Astrology

http://www.ninjavideo.net/video/29430

Watch it, its pure win

Also,
/thread

[Face Ache]

I love horoscopes, but then I'm a slightly naive girl who day dreams a lot about nice things.

Tarot is pretty exciting too.

I'm just a bit gullible I guess, but I never act on these things, I just wait and see what happens.

[WAN]

I don't really "seriously" believe in this stuff but it's really fun to mess around with it.

[Lysergic Rain]

Really though, this is what I want to know: How does anyone who is partially educated believe this shit?

I say the same thing about religion everyday

[Rizzo in a box]

Astrology is a lot more complicated than this pseudo-esoteric bullshit peddled today.

Not many people even understand Tarot because they don't understand it corresponds exactly to the Tree of Life...they think its a card game for telling the future. :confused:

[TripleDot]

Astrology is a lot more complicated than this pseudo-esoteric bullshit peddled today.

Not many people even understand Tarot because they don't understand it corresponds exactly to the Tree of Life...they think its a card game for telling the future. :confused:I always thought it corresponded to archetypes represented by the images on the cards?

[Rizzo in a box]

I always thought it corresponded to archetypes represented by the images on the cards?

They do.

[Toothlessjoe]

Not many people even understand Tarot because they don't understand it corresponds exactly to the Tree of Life

LOL. What?

[Lysergic Rain]

LOL. What?

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/5208/toothlessjacksoncg4.png

Shut the fuck up joe

[Figure-8]

You have to learn about that information to be able to use it properly.

When identified with, and used probably, you can't go wrong.

[Blunderfail]

Anyone else read toothlessjoe's posts and think... "Am I at the core of this post yet? Or am I still in the introduction? Wtf is his point?"

[Dream of the iris]

I find things like palm reading, when done right, can offer greater insights into yourself, where you're going, your strengths, weaknesses, etc.

Basically, a way to show you where you need to pay attention.


Same with life really. Any situation your in and you get a huge emotional reaction out of, what is that emotion telling you?

For example, you become hurt because of a comment someone made about your weight? Shows that you're insecure because of it, you don't have a good grasp of self, etc. It spirals out further from there.

Same with palm reading, tarot cards, etc.

[5024L]

I find things like palm reading, when done right, can offer greater insights into yourself, where you're going, your strengths, weaknesses, etc.

Basically, a way to show you where you need to pay attention.


Same with life really. Any situation your in and you get a huge emotional reaction out of, what is that emotion telling you?

For example, you become hurt because of a comment someone made about your weight? Shows that you're insecure because of it, you don't have a good grasp of self, etc. It spirals out further from there.

Same with palm reading, tarot cards, etc.
:facepalm:

Wannabe Greyfox

[5024L]

I find things like palm reading, when done right, can offer greater insights into yourself, where you're going, your strengths, weaknesses, etc.

Basically, a way to show you where you need to pay attention.


Same with life really. Any situation your in and you get a huge emotional reaction out of, what is that emotion telling you?

For example, you become hurt because of a comment someone made about your weight? Shows that you're insecure because of it, you don't have a good grasp of self, etc. It spirals out further from there.

Same with palm reading, tarot cards, etc.
:facepalm:

Wannabe Greyfox.

And you know mods aren't supposed to delete posts.

[whocares123]

the question i have is what is the origin of the tarot cards or astrology? what is the source of authority here? are they not just man made creations that have been around forever?

i'm going to focus on tarot cards in particular since i could see astrology being based around actual astronomy...in some way. so you have tarot cards and you believe they predict the future accurately, spiritMSTR. ok, where did these tarot cards come from? people just randomly chose those symbols and tapped in to some paranormal energy that just so happened to link up with the symbols they chose? i mean what the fuck.

[ArmsMerchant]

The Tarot dates back to the Middle Ages, I think, and astrology goes WAY back--the Three Wise Men of the Bible were astrologers, as were the ancient Chaldeans.

I just googled "Tarot history of"--following is the first of almost FIVE MILLION results I got:

http://www.tarothermit.com/