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Warped Mindless
01-30-2009, 03:00 AM
Hey guys, what would be the least inexpensive and simplistic way to bullet proof a car? Lets say, resistant to most common handgun rounds and most shotguns.

Thanks.

ilovechronic
01-30-2009, 03:10 AM
these days you need to armor for rifles also. There was a thread about this in w&c before totse went down.

the man you need to talk to is LAVARED, he actually owns a armored vehicle.

he also knows some techniques to produce improvised armor.

reggie_love
01-30-2009, 03:16 AM
LavaRed armored his Jeep Grand Cherokee, if I recall correctly. With any luck that thread was archived.

It's not all that difficult, you just have to install steel plating in the doors and roof and stuff, I forget what he replaced the windshields with to make them bullet resistant. Maybe he'll come around and post something knowledgeable.

Sheets of metal aren't that expensive. I think you'll find the real expense comes from the decreased gas mileage you'll be getting with all that extra weight in your vehicle.

Struwwelpeter
01-30-2009, 03:26 AM
I don't have anything to add; but I did get to drive an armored car once. It was a front wheel drive and that added with the heavy windshield made saudi style drifting even more incredible. And it was almost impossible to flip as it weighed so much. I have a couple of videos on my laptop, perhaps I will transfer them in a moment and upload the footage.

ilovechronic
01-30-2009, 04:06 AM
I don't have anything to add; but I did get to drive an armored car once. It was a front wheel drive and that added with the heavy windshield made saudi style drifting even more incredible. And it was almost impossible to flip as it weighed so much. I have a couple of videos on my laptop, perhaps I will transfer them in a moment and upload the footage.
Do you mean saudi arabia? What did you do there? Interesting.

Random_Looney
01-30-2009, 02:06 PM
I don't have anything to add; but I did get to drive an armored car once. It was a front wheel drive and that added with the heavy windshield made saudi style drifting even more incredible. And it was almost impossible to flip as it weighed so much. I have a couple of videos on my laptop, perhaps I will transfer them in a moment and upload the footage.

Please do. That'd be pretty cool.

I almost bought an armored Mercedes once.

Struwwelpeter
01-30-2009, 11:31 PM
Hey guys I did indeed transfer that footage but it's in like MP4 format or some shit so I'll be using one of those freeware conversion tools before I upload it, I want to edit it first. It wasn't in Saudi Arabia but it was a really heavy front-wheel drive armored car which my friend owns, here in Mississippi, and we took it out to one of those municipal airports out in those tiny towns (the kind for private planes and crop dusters) and did drifting with it. But it's not actual "drifting" the kind that takes skill, it's just "saudi style". On youtube there are a number of examples of this. "Saudi drifting" is basically just taking any car that's a front wheel drive and screwing around with it. It's quite dangerous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GUcT2UR_UA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-wZF1NMbJY

also this kind of stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtV1bYyDfTk&feature=related

That and the related videos should give an idea.

And that had to have been tempting, R_L. Were you offered a discount or something? I can't imagine how expensive that would really be. Do tell more.

Random_Looney
01-31-2009, 12:17 AM
Nice videos.

And that had to have been tempting, R_L. Were you offered a discount or something? I can't imagine how expensive that would really be. Do tell more.

I would have received a discount due to some people I knew and circumstances I was in. I was also offered a lesser discount on an armored BMW (which I didn't consider).

They called them drug dealer specials. And no, I am not, nor have I ever been a drug dealer. At the time I was getting some death threats related with some work I was doing. I'd say more, but to be honest, I'm not exactly sure how much I'm supposed to say and how much I'm not... so I'll make it sound more exciting than it was by not saying anything else ;-).

Carbonbased
01-31-2009, 02:05 AM
Op post a pic of the car to be armored and some of the details about the threats you may be facing to help us help you better.

mxs
01-31-2009, 02:09 AM
If you want to be really cheap, you can always just get a bunch of yelloe page books and put them on the inside of the door. You should be fine :rolleyes:

Warped Mindless
01-31-2009, 01:51 PM
If you want to be really cheap, you can always just get a bunch of yelloe page books and put them on the inside of the door. You should be fine :rolleyes:

I've herd of that. I'm guessing it doesn't work to well though.

LavaRed
01-31-2009, 05:02 PM
I will post some more after I'm done with my shower. I got my car up-armored for around $4000 in local currency. Its not that expensive if you tests samples of everything before you put them in the car.
You have to have the right weapons and AP ammo tho.

Carbonbased
01-31-2009, 09:15 PM
I've herd of that. I'm guessing it doesn't work to well though.

Well you would need about 7 inches of book to stop a 9mm so yea it's not a really great idea.

(source (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot31_3.htm))

LavaRed
02-01-2009, 03:05 AM
Ok, here's my special armor blend:

For doors, use: 1/4" steel plate, then 1/2" ballistic nylon-fiberglass sheet, 1" wood (optional. Cedar wood works best), and 1/4" steel plate on the other side.

For windows, 1" thick armored glass will suffice. But if you add a further 1/4" layer of lexan behind it, it will prevent it from fragmenting, which improves resistance by a good margin.

If you could get 1" polycarbonate glass it would be much better, but the old armored glass is enough.

I read somewhere that you can glue 1" ceramic tiles onto the ballistic nylon backing and that it will boost resistence incredibly, but I have yet to test this one.

The door armor will just stop vintage WWII .30-06 rounds and .308 at 25 - 50 yards, if you use wood. Without it, it will stop 7.62x39mm AP, and 5.56, without much problems.

simple blend. Good results.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/LavaRed/DSC01203b.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q220/LavaRed/DSC01204b.jpg

Some sample strike pics for you ;). Without wood.

Carbonbased
02-02-2009, 01:49 AM
Ok, here's my special armor blend:

I read somewhere that you can glue 1" ceramic tiles onto the ballistic nylon backing and that it will boost resistance incredibly, but I have yet to test this one.

This is true, mythbuster ran and episode of bullet proof house hold objects, it was found that when 2 layers of tiles were staggered they would easily stop a 9mm round and buckshot.

It looks like you've acquired some impressive results however!

How much weight did it add to your jeep and were their any modifications needed to the suspension?

LavaRed
02-02-2009, 03:53 AM
This is true, mythbuster ran and episode of bullet proof house hold objects, it was found that when 2 layers of tiles were staggered they would easily stop a 9mm round and buckshot.

It looks like you've acquired some impressive results however!

How much weight did it add to your jeep and were their any modifications needed to the suspension?

We had them add a torsion bar scavenged from a Suburban on the rear axle. I guess overall it brought the weight up from 1.5 to 3 tons. We also had to fit Michelin LTX tires.
Most of the transmission and cooling problems have been solved by now, and the car runs like a normal automatic. Engaging reverse or Quadra-trac is a bit rough and requires some fiddling, but both work, and you can climb 40 degree slopes without having to engage L1.
The car will do 90 km/h on a road and the brakes work reasonably well now.
In all, it feels like you were handling a light truck or a half-track with hydraulic steering. The tires and suspension make for a very smooth ride, and like any jeep, it will handle quite well off road. So, all in all, it's a very good project for the money.
Plus I've heard that many of the newer armored cars have structural problems because of the sheet-thin steel and heavy use of plastics. Over here its very popular to armor Toyota SUV's.
Oh, and by the way, its not a Grand Cherokee, but a Grand Wagoneer. Same thing, I know, but more luxurious interior ;)

Carbonbased
02-02-2009, 04:06 AM
Wow the thats quite a weight gain, however for the amount of protection is affords from even .308 it seems reasonable.

Was there any specific type of steal that you used?

Ive really been looking into developing some composite armor using Kevlar and ceramics, any advice/experience? (kevlar 29 is hella expensive any chance you know of a cheap source?)

Thanks!

Random_Looney
02-02-2009, 01:33 PM
Ok, here's my special armor blend:

Is the steel mild steel, or heat treated in any particular way? Also, what kind of steel is it with regard to carbon content?

Inquiring minds want to know : -). And mimic.

Groundhog whacka
02-04-2009, 02:57 AM
If you want to be really cheap, you can always just get a bunch of yelloe page books and put them on the inside of the door. You should be fine :rolleyes:


It worked in "Burn Notice" last week, why not in real life?:confused:

reggie_love
02-04-2009, 04:04 AM
It worked in "Burn Notice" last week, why not in real life?:confused:

Dude I love Burn Notice. That's some quality low-budget TV.
:p :fap:

Carbonbased
02-04-2009, 07:31 AM
reggie_love and Groundhog whacka, read post #13 thats why it wont work.

In defense of phone books however, hollow points would probably have less penetration (substantially less if they expanded) than old ball ammo that was used in the tests.

The Swede
02-04-2009, 01:42 PM
Easy Carbon, they are messing with Kenny.

b00m
02-04-2009, 07:37 PM
Does the armoring also cover IEDs and Explosives? Or is it strictly for Small Arms fire?

Actually, is it even possible to armor for IEDs and explosives?

LavaRed
02-04-2009, 07:48 PM
Is the steel mild steel, or heat treated in any particular way? Also, what kind of steel is it with regard to carbon content?

Inquiring minds want to know : -). And mimic.

I don't really know. We got the steel cheap from a junkyard, seems it was used for factory structures or such.
So I would guess its on the mild side.

Warped Mindless
02-04-2009, 09:12 PM
Thanks for the responses guys.

LavaRed
02-05-2009, 04:06 AM
Does the armoring also cover IEDs and Explosives? Or is it strictly for Small Arms fire?

Actually, is it even possible to armor for IEDs and explosives?

It should be. I'm not an explosives expert, so forgive me if I make big mistakes here, but it is my belief that fragments from explosives will be relatively low- velocity when compared to small arms fire, so armor capable of stopping pistol bullets should be able to deal with the shrapnel from explosives.
I'm thinking along the lines of the flak jacket here.

theshadowfax
02-08-2009, 01:12 AM
Truth be told phone books actually will stop small rounds from piercing if you layer them correctly. Problem is, not many cars have enough room on the inside panels to actually layer yellow books...

blue_monday
02-08-2009, 07:26 AM
It should be. I'm not an explosives expert, so forgive me if I make big mistakes here, but it is my belief that fragments from explosives will be relatively low- velocity when compared to small arms fire, so armor capable of stopping pistol bullets should be able to deal with the shrapnel from explosives.
I'm thinking along the lines of the flak jacket here.

My flak jacket's rated for 17 grain steel shrapnel going 2000fps IIRC, and its 20% nylon 80% ballistic aramid. It's like, maybe 3/8" thick. This would definantly be doable on a car, but kevlar or something else would work better.

b00m
02-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Is there any armoring on the underside of the vehicle.

Otherwise a shaped explosive IED would seriously fuck the shit out of any vehicle armored or not.

You might want to look into ways to armor a vehicle from roadside explosives.

-b00m

Crashwangdoodle
02-08-2009, 03:10 PM
Is there any armoring on the underside of the vehicle.

Otherwise a shaped explosive IED would seriously fuck the shit out of any vehicle armored or not.

You might want to look into ways to armor a vehicle from roadside explosives.

-b00m

This is totally necessary if you want a fully armoured vehicle.

LavaRed
02-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Is there any armoring on the underside of the vehicle.

Otherwise a shaped explosive IED would seriously fuck the shit out of any vehicle armored or not.

You might want to look into ways to armor a vehicle from roadside explosives.

-b00m

My vehicle has steel plate and ballistic nylon fiber armoring the underside and the topside too.

The engine is similarly armored, and the batteries (twin batteries, one for backup), both are encased in ballystic nylon plates too.

b00m
02-08-2009, 04:03 PM
In some of my Soldier of Fortune magazines they were talking about armoring Bradley Assault vehicles from Explosive rounds from RPGs and what not.

But basically the concept that they were discussing was building rails around the entire vehicle so that when the RPG hits the rails it acts like a buffer so the eXplosive round detonates before hitting the side of the BAV or a Humvee.

What I'm getting at is maybe its possible to set some type of armoring up like that underneath the vehicle to stop the blast from completely fucking up the car.

I was just working on my buddies Lifted GMC Sierra 1500. And a IED would cut threw the bottom of his truck like swiss cheese. The bottom of any vehicle is going to be very weak with little protection, unless you own a Audi ( 20 bolt skid plate to get to the oil plug).

Anyways thats why IEDs are so successful because theres not much protection on the bottom of a vehicle. And also if the Explosive doesn't completely blow the fuck out of your vehicle, the drive shaft is down there, the gas tank.

Another thing if your going to armor up a vehicle especially if you are armoring a 4x4 there are a couple other things to look into.

- Transfer case, chain driven is going to by definition be weaker than gear driven.

- Bullet proofing the tires are important, if the tires go flat, your fucked in the ass.

-Driveshafts if your driveshaft twists or goes to hell, your armored car is going nowhere and now they can just blow the doors open and shoot you like fish in a barrel.

- Rear end - We just replaced my buddys GMCs rear end. 3/4 ton rear ends are going to be shit for your armored car.
as me and my friends learned, blowing out your rear end on the highway from too much strain on it is going rock your world.

If your driving components arent up to shape all the extra weight and what not from armoring is going to fuck you up the ass when your drive line blows out.

also lifting the Vehicle and throwing some Run Flat Mudders on it will help you get around those pesky people shooting at you/

Me and my friends have learned countless times that Lifted trucks are the shit. My buddys GMC and Chevys have saved our asses so many times, not to mention off roading and mudding is the shit.

Thats all I could think of, let me know if you want more.

-b00m

b00m
02-08-2009, 04:10 PM
O and if your vehicle excepts a CHIP or PROGRAMMER, some extra power would probably be nice too.

Bender
02-08-2009, 04:52 PM
Hey guys, what would be the least inexpensive and simplistic way to bullet proof a car? Lets say, resistant to most common handgun rounds and most shotguns.

Thanks.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d88/SNAPitskelly/aluminum_foil.jpg

Bender
02-08-2009, 04:53 PM
least inexpensive

Lol stacks on deck?

Random_Looney
02-08-2009, 05:07 PM
But basically the concept that they were discussing was building rails around the entire vehicle so that when the RPG hits the rails it acts like a buffer so the eXplosive round detonates before hitting the side of the BAV or a Humvee.

Been done.

The velocity of shrapnel can be much higher than that of bullets given that many common military and blasting explosives have a VoD reaching 7800-8000m/s. Remember shrapnel has a terrible ballistic coefficient, so it bleeds off its kinetic energy quickly and loses speed.

Also, even if you completely rocket-proofed your car, the main problem with explosions in current warzones is IEDs. Special troughlike deflecting structures have been built into the bottom of vehicles to deflect explosions under the vehicles, where most of the damage often occurs.

And please, guys, stay on topic. Off roading isn't pertinent to the forum, and neither are posts about tinfoil. Pandora's Assassin, if you can't help, go back to Bad Ideas.

b00m
02-08-2009, 05:13 PM
Sorry didn't mean to try and get off track, I was just saying that Off roading and that I figured was pertinent because it is the ability to move around if you are attacked, having the ability to get away from your attackers.

My bad again.

-b00m

Random_Looney
02-08-2009, 05:28 PM
Check your PM. I'm a sneaky one.

Freelance Tax Collector
02-08-2009, 06:38 PM
But basically the concept that they were discussing was building rails around the entire vehicle so that when the RPG hits the rails it acts like a buffer so the eXplosive round detonates before hitting the side of the BAV or a Humvee

I've seen that. There is also the courragated steel panels that we have on the side of our tracks, makes it so an RPG can't hit at a perpendicular angle somewhat mitigating it's penetrative ability.

For IED threats, one's chief concern is the underside of the vehicle. Even if the blast doesn't kill you then you're fucking stuck. The MRAP is the only vehicle you can expect any reasonable degree of safety in the event of a large blast with it's V shaped hull and everything. We'll see how it all turns out with the proliferation of EFPs.

For an ambush involving only small arms, such as a street gang or communist guerrilla's tax checkpoint, hopefully they won't be using anything larger than 7.62x39 ball. Reasonable steps can be taken to protect from that. Remember though, speed is your friend. Don't stop just because there's a little kid in the middle of the road. If anything, speed up.

On the subject of bullet resistant glass, you'd better hope they're using low velocity type stuff. Granted this sheet's integrity was already pretty compromised, since we found it all shot up in the first place, but it doesn't make me terribly confident. Watch Here (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v288/762x51mm/?action=view&current=ballisticglass.flv)

This (http://billstclair.com/clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/arg.html) has some interesting material on the subject, but don't forget your NaCl. Most of the vehicle related stuff is about 3/4 down the page.

b00m
02-08-2009, 06:51 PM
^ as you posted above there is a certain "Convoy Driving"

Staying in a pack, moving at high speeds, never stopping for anything.

But thats part of being in a combat zone or a threat zone. Just because you have the vehicle, if you dont know how to use the tool the tool becomes useless.

And when your in a sticky situation you need to know how to react to whats going on.

Such as if someone starts shooting at you you dont slow down, you fucking hammer down on that pedal and ram the fuck out of whats in front of you.

Its basically all common sense.

Also a Urban assault vehicle bumper would come in handy so you can run some shit out of the way.

again just some random information, Im kinda bored ( Not relevant sorry)

-b00m

smitty
02-09-2009, 09:27 AM
I dont know anything about armouring a car, but I imagine angles will be your friend here.