American drinking age debate

[Fish]

So that age-old debate once again rears it's ugly head, but this time, despite it occurring on the usual battleground of American colleges, there's some added spice in that college presidents and administrators are now voicing their own opinions on the issue: Is the 21 drinking age limit working?

Those on the pro side (saying it does work) cite statistics that deaths due to drunk driving have decreases, and argue that lowering the age will not only reverse that trend, but will also send the message to young Americans that underage drinking is okay, since it's all relative, and not a hard and fast "law"

Those against the current age argue that despite a decrease in drunk driving fatalities, the larger picture is much more bleak. Citing the incredible amount of binge drinking that happens on nearly all college campuses, they argue that lowering the age will permit more public drinking, ergo, more drinking with adults, thus facilitating the learning of moderation and responsible drinking.

Unlike so many debates, where the argument is over how to approach a mutual problem (ie: Abortion, war on drugs), this debate seems to have an added twist in that those supporting the current age seem to acknowledge much less of a problem than those supporting a changed age. While admittedly, a large number of young people go to college, and the college presidents are in a position to see what happens at those colleges, I don't think that's the whole picture - perhaps they're only seeing the "train-wrecks" that they cite as their argument, thus missing the forest for the litter, as it where.

Conversely, the side arguing that the age is fine and needs no change certainly has an interesting argument. Headed by MADD, their primary statistics revolve around drunk driving, and completely omit any mention of binge drinking fatalities, or underage alcoholism. Not to mention that neither side mentions a possible change in the driving age (not that most places have the infrastructure to support such a change).

So I put the question to you, Forum readers. Should the age be lowered, despite any possible drawbacks? Or does the current system work well enough, despite it's own drawbacks? Or perhaps we're looking at it all wrong, and the drinking age should be integrally tied to the driving age, after consulting experts on the matter.

Here's some links to the stories I read, I hope you think carefully before casting your vote!

On Campus, Legal Drinking Age Is Flunking the Reality Test (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/20/AR2008082003238.html?hpid=topnews)

Drinking-age proposal draws attacks (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/health/bal-drink0819,0,48166.story)

[AtrainV]

I definitely think there needs to be more parent involvement in teaching kids how to drink responsibly.

One of the reasons I think there are so many issues at college with drinking is because so many of the kids are learning how to drink for the first time while away from home and without much supervision. Decriminalizing younger drinking would drastically lessen unfortunate and avoidable "accidents" that are byproducts of college binge drinking.

This is fairly idealistic, however, and I don't have evidence to back up the claim. It is very possible that the drinking culture of the US has become so ingrained in our society that it may take a very long time for any positive effects to be seen.

Furthermore, there will always be issues associated with binge drinking and irresponsible drunk behavior... ALWAYS. However, I think lowering the age would definitely move us in the direction of lessening the more avoidable cases.

[Fish]

One of the reasons I think there are so many issues at college with drinking is because so many of the kids are learning how to drink for the first time while away from home and without much supervision. Decriminalizing younger drinking would drastically lessen unfortunate and avoidable "accidents" that are byproducts of college binge drinking.

This pretty much sums up my feelings in the issue. I mean, yes, there is a specifically American culture of drinking that has been fostered by everything from the drinking age to prohibition back in the 20's - William Ralph Inge, the author and Anglican Priest, once noted that "the proper time to influence the character of a child is 100 years before he is born."

in a more recent article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/us/22drinking.html?ref=education) on the issue, the argument is also articulated:

...raising the drinking age to 21 has fostered a culture of clandestine binge drinking and that students’ use of fake identification has eroded their respect for the law.

[Fish]

I'd also like to throw in an additional quote from that last NYT article, from Chuck Hurley, the chief executive of MADD:

Chuck Hurley, the chief executive of MADD, acknowledged that widespread drinking on campus fostered a distinct set of problems. “The drinking age is working far better in blue-collar America, or community college America, than in Ivy League America,” he said.

To me, this represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. Firstly, I don't think that Mr. Hurley knows exactly what "Ivy League (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ivy+league&x=0&y=0)" means. Ohio State, the university in question in the above mentioned article, is nowhere near Ivy League, in status or definition. Secondly, I'd really like to know what he means by "working far better." So far, all the statistics I've seen from MADD on the issue involve fatalities in drunken car crashes. The problems of alcohol go far beyond simple deaths by car - lifelong alcoholism and the related diseases, ruined lives, and even STDs and unwanted pregnancies are only of the few issues unaddressed by these stats.

All I'm saying is that I'd really like to see MADD define their terms, and express what they actually are trying to accomplish, be it reduced fatalities or reduced casualties.

[Suzie]

In my experience, Brits under 21 have a much more sensible attitude to drinking than their american counterparts. Given the relative homogeneous nature of the cultures in both countries, one has to assume that the lower drinking age has quite a lot to do with this..

As far as the drunk driving stuff goes, that could be due to many factors that have nothing to do with the drinking age.. It would make more sense to raise the driving age if it's a factor..

[Fish]

It would make more sense to raise the driving age if it's a factor..

I agree. I'd be interested in seeing how many car crashes are caused by NON-DRUNK kids under 18. I think that would be a very revealing statistic, as far as MADD's arguments go.

[Fish]

I just read another article examining this ongoing debate. I am more convinced now than ever that MADD pretty much has no case beyond the idea that it's the rule that matters, not whether it works. More than that, pretty much every statement made by the organization or its members has involved either A) carefully groomed statistics about drunk driving deaths or B) an emotional appeal with no logical value whatsoever.

Point in case (http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=234914), Rita Kreslin lost her 19 year-old son in a drunk crash in 2002. Her actual story has a lot of irrelevant information to make you feel sad (he wanted to be a pharmacist...awwww...), but she ends her letter with the statement that "Changing the drinking age would be a big mistake and would cost more lives than save lives." Somewhere between "underage drunk-driving death" and "don't change the age limit because it works", logic took a nap.

[Fuck the FBI]

bump

[7i8_Dago]

PROHIBITION!

let the cosa nostra rise to power once more..

[grencez]

Americans on the whole have not shown very much responsibility when it comes to alcohol - young or old. People make bad decisions... if you're smart and underage, you drink and don't make an idiot of yourself in public, thus thwarting the effects the law is trying to prevent. In my experience, much less people care about drinking when it's done responsibly, even when the drinkers are underage.

I do believe it would be good to waive punishment of people who drink too much and go to the hospital. I imagine people practice this unofficially, but a law to enforce it would be nice.

[Anima Mundi]

This thread just shows that nobody over 21 goes on Zoklet.

[PieGirl]

I think this thread is an appropriate place to gloat about how I am going to be 18 in 23 days and thus shall be allowed to buy alcohol, at the age that people should be allowed to in all countries.

[HOLLISTER GUY]

I put that it should be lowered because there is no option to say that there should be no laws surrounding the drinking age or age of consuming any drugs for that matter

[skyclaw441]

People actually voted for Prohibition? Seems people haven't taken a lesson from history, past or current.

[Σnigma]

It should be related to the driving age. Think about it. If you possess a license, you can have as many people in your car as the car legally allows, but all those people are putting their lives into your hands. If you can handle the lives of three other people, shouldn't you be allowed to handle your own life?

If you possess a driving permit, you should be allowed to drink alcohol, but not buy it.

If you possess a driver's license, you should be allowed to buy alcohol.

[Monkmaster]

Kids are bypassing it anyways. I'd say lower it, but I voted reconsider carefully.

[SHH]

Americans can't drink anyways.

[InspiredByMe]

Lol the "get it lowered" option is at 21.

[SHH]

Lol the "get it lowered" option is at 21.

Yeah, that's hilarious.

[2009/10 is really GAY]

Under 21 gets to drink? Nah, too immature imo. We don't need more drunk drivers. :thumbsdown:

[Bender]

Like we need more intoxicated kidiots.

[023]

Drop the drinking age to 18, increase the minimum penalty of DUI of .08% or more to 3 years in jail.

And that's how you encourage people to drink responsibly.

[cb']

I live in BC, Canada, and I can tell you for certain that it is a lot scarier to get in a car with someone who's been smokin' the reefer than someone who has had a couple beer. This farming road I live on has plenty of both, but only to pot smokers seem to crash regularly on it. If you piss positive for weed, you should lose your license until you piss negative a year straight, on top of whatever jail time, etc. It will keep making you dumber and dumber, so you ought to force those bastards to quit, so there are no repeat offenses, or quit piloting these metal bullets we let people have for some reason.

[Hyper-dimension]

I live in BC, Canada, and I can tell you for certain that it is a lot scarier to get in a car with someone who's been smokin' the reefer than someone who has had a couple beer. This farming road I live on has plenty of both, but only to pot smokers seem to crash regularly on it. If you piss positive for weed, you should lose your license until you piss negative a year straight, on top of whatever jail time, etc. It will keep making you dumber and dumber, so you ought to force those bastards to quit, so there are no repeat offenses, or quit piloting these metal bullets we let people have for some reason.

Is this supposed to be one of those "our grass is the best" trolls?

God, I hope it is.

[cb']

No, I am the only person in the province that hates fucking weed. I was ranting a bit. Sorry.

Anyway, the drinking age should be lowered, along with the driving age, so we can kill off all the moron kids that should have been coathangered in the first place.

[Mutant Funk Drink]

It should be lowered to 18. Once you're an adult, you should be an adult. I'm tired of age discrimination nonsense. I'm not even a drinker and I think that the drinking age should be lowered. To be honest, I can not tell the difference between the maturity of an 18 year old and that of a 21 year old. And to tell you the truth, I often find that a lot of 21 year olds act like they did when they were in high school.

I say we should do away with the nanny government, the coddling, and the overprotection and start eliminating age-based nonsense.

[MasterYoda210]

Drop the drinking age to 18, increase the minimum penalty of DUI of .08% or more to 3 years in jail.

And that's how you encourage people to drink responsibly.

That would barely make a difference. Britain has one of the most lenient drink-driving limits in Europe (0.35% blood-alcohol content I think), able to drive at 17, and able to buy beer at 18, and we honestly don't get that vast a number of teenaged drink-drivers trying to abuse the high limit.

The way I see it, is the earlier you can start drinking, the sooner you can learn to handle your beer and drink responsibly. If I'm honest, me and my mates had the odd underage binge drinking session in our younger years, the 24-pack challenge when we were 15, birthday celebrations etc. but at that age, I wasn't massively interested in getting drunk. I think the problem is when you reach 18/19/20, you are able to get a proper job, vote, drive, everything but drink in America, so it leads to people going mental when they can finally legally drink.

As it has been pointed out as well, people under 21 in America are far more likely to use fake ID's to purchase beer, so such a high drinking age does nothing. When the government in this country was proposing raising the drinking age to 21, I said it will serve to do nothing but class people 18-21 as underage drinkers, not stem the tide of binge drinking.

So, to sum up, the earlier you can start drinking, the sooner you can begin to learn how to drink responsibly. In France 14 year olds have a bottle of wine with a meal, which means they have 7 years advantage over Americans in learning how to handle booze. I started drinking legally at 18, and now at 21, I always say "it's not a good night out unless you drink at least a gallon of beer." But because I've been drinking for three years (well, about 6, but easily obtaining beer for three of them) I can now handle my beer really well.
If an American at 21, without much drinking experience, tried drinking a gallon of beer, I'd dread to think what would happen.

[minor69ner]

The drinking age here is 18. There aren't alot of 18-21 year olds who get in accidents because of alcohol. It should be lowered.

[LiquidIce]

The drinking age here i 18, but recent statistics show that 95% of 16 year olds have had at least contact with alcohol, so the real drinking age is around 15-16. Somehow we manage. And we also learn to respect alcohol BEFORE we hit 18 and get a car.

But no, I can already see young americans (emo, black, ipods, obese and all the other stereotypes :P) getting drunk with their puny little 330ml, 4-5% beers.

[NuclearWinter]

The legal age here in Australia is 18, but I've been into it since I was 16.

[Intoxicated Shaman]

Lower that shit. America needs to cut all ties with it's conservative Christian past to get anywhere.

[minor69ner]

The drinking age here i 18, but recent statistics show that 95% of 16 year olds have had at least contact with alcohol, so the real drinking age is around 15-16. Somehow we manage. And we also learn to respect alcohol BEFORE we hit 18 and get a car.

But no, I can already see young americans (emo, black, ipods, obese and all the other stereotypes :P) getting drunk with their puny little 330ml, 4-5% beers.

Can't 15-16 year olds drink wine and beer if they are eating or something like that?

[enkrypt0r]

I really don't care. People are going to drink underage regardless. I can see the points of both sides, and both are very valid.

[LiquidIce]

Can't 15-16 year olds drink wine and beer if they are eating or something like that?

No, I believe the drinking age in France is much, much lower.

Also I think that if it wasn't banned, people wouldn't get so shitfucked because OMGZOMGZ IM TEHDRINKING OLOLOLO. People would just drink to the point where it's pleasurable. And not fucking drive afterwards :facepalm:

[minor69ner]

No, I believe the drinking age in France is much, much lower.

Also I think that if it wasn't banned, people wouldn't get so shitfucked because OMGZOMGZ IM TEHDRINKING OLOLOLO. People would just drink to the point where it's pleasurable. And not fucking drive afterwards :facepalm:

Oh.

[cb']

No, I believe the drinking age in France is much, much lower.

Also I think that if it wasn't banned, people wouldn't get so shitfucked because OMGZOMGZ IM TEHDRINKING OLOLOLO. People would just drink to the point where it's pleasurable. And not fucking drive afterwards :facepalm:

I agree that abuse correlates positively with restrictions, to a point. Some people are just morons, and want to fuck the man, man. This is why we should run high-profile anti-suicide campaigns.

[brotherinarms]

I think that if there going to bring down the drinking age in the United States they should first make it so that only certain stores carry the alcohol and let it be sold at things such as gas stations and grocery stores.

The second thing is that they should take all the niggers and all the jews and all the little ghetto white trash people and but them in a big burning pit.

If this is done the drinking age would be safer to lower.

[LiquidIce]

Or maybe it's a question about... natural selection? Let the fuckers drink themselves to death and avoid reproduction of retarded offspring?

[cb']

Or maybe it's a question about... natural selection? Let the fuckers drink themselves to death and avoid reproduction of retarded offspring?

Completely agree. Either that or put a sterilizer in the booze so that if you get drunk off your ass more than a few times a month, it'll fuck up your sperm.

[brotherinarms]

Completely agree. Either that or put a sterilizer in the booze so that if you get drunk off your ass more than a few times a month, it'll fuck up your sperm.

This

[Jerry]

I think it should be 18 for foreigners on holiday in America. I've been used to drinking for years and then I can't legally buy beer when I'm on my fucking holidays :mad:

fuck that!