a pair of camel parables

[ArmsMerchant]

Ibrahim once sat on his throne and suddenly heard a great clamor from the roof of his palace--voices and heavy footsteps. He investigated and found it was his guards, who said "We go the rounds in search of our camels."

He said "Who ever searched for camels on a rooftop?"

They replied, "We follow your example, who searches for God while sitting on a throne." (from Jalal-uddin Rumi, a Sufi mystic and poet)

Jesus (who spoke something like 28 parables, this being a well-known way of communicating at the time) said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. There is more to this than meets the modern eye---at the time "The Eye of the Needle" was known as a low and narrow pass on a trade route--camels had to be unloaded of their burdens and led through the pass on their knees.

Thus, it was not impossible for the rich to attain enlightenment (Kingdom of Heaven being a figure of speech itself), but rather than they had to transcend material wealth and manifest humility in order to do so.

[PirateJoe]

I have done a little googling, and it appears that "the eye of a needle" means exactly that, not a gate of any kind.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=581334
http://www.debunker.com/texts/needleye.html

That last link mentions the Jerome Biblical Commentary which is at my local library, so I'll be able to confirm that in a day or two.

[Shaggy]

I understand what the parable is, and the whole eye of the camel idea. But uh...what is the point of this thread? Other then to share the parable? I'm not sure what to really respond with here. Any discussion ideas?

[ArmsMerchant]

I have done a little googling, and it appears that "the eye of a needle" means exactly that, not a gate of any kind.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?p=581334
http://www.debunker.com/texts/needleye.html

That last link mentions the Jerome Biblical Commentary which is at my local library, so I'll be able to confirm that in a day or two.

I wish I could remember where I read what I cited. Since I have read kind of a lot over the past fifty or so years, I can't document many of my sources.

[negz]

"But all things are possible with God."

[Ambient]

the gate is not the true meaning of the passage.

If it is, the passage becomes insignificant.

( ive known about this passage prevously).

[ArmsMerchant]

^Okay--and the true meaning of the passage, according to you, would be. . . . .?

Don't keep us in suspenders here.

[negz]

Being rich doesn't always mean being materialistic.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

[Ambient]

Matthew 19:24

""Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I First read this when reading David Bruce Hughes introduction to the book of Gethsmene.

This passage illustrates the general principal Jesus stands for which is

Spiritual> Material.

That is what the passage is saying.

I smart person can see that it is possible to be rich and reject materialism although it is only natural for a rich man to be/become materialistic.

That is why Jesus also said blessed are the meek, they will enter the kingdom of God.

This is the exact same principle in a vice versa position.

Not all poor people are spiritual; but most spiritual people are poor/ well off because that is how they prioritize.

It is my understanding that Psychological understanding 2000 years ago was very limited, however the person who wrote this passage (IMO) knew very much about the psychology of materialism.

Psychologically speaking ( and this is well known in the Religious world) it is our constitutional position to be of service.

It is True that material wealth leads to material ambition, that does not mean a person cannot be conscious of this fact and do their best to negate this. This will happen with awareness.

OSHO defines virtue as " something that increases/enhances with awareness", and similarly vices decrease/dissipate with awareness.

Temptation is all around that is something that cannot be rid of, but awareness can dissipate it from consciousness.

SO in conclusion the passage does not state a rich man cannot enter the Kingdom of God, only that it is very difficult because of human nature (greed/ambition).

Our constitutional position is of service, so it is very hard to serve material and spiritual at the same time; these are contradictions; however to a certain degree a necessary evil ( we must eat and drink to service and breath: these are material).

To me God is spiritual and Satan is material; Heaven is our consciousness in spiritual enlightenment and Hell is our consciousness in a state of material entrapment.

So to that is why it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

P.S Reasons i would personally reject the "Jewish" interpretation (literalistic version using geography) is because the role of the "needle" aspect is there to enhance the understanding the downfalls of material wealth. I really dont know that much about the passage and alot of this is just my ethnographic bias ( everyone has their own Jesus).

This link may help

http://bible.cc/matthew/19-24.htm

P.S.S Holy shit negz, i just realized how poor our world is.

[ArmsMerchant]

Being rich doesn't always mean being materialistic.

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

Agreed in principle, but this also depends on how one defines"rich."

By my standards, "rich" means living in a place with running water, having health insurance, being able to afford an occasional vacation, having health insurance--all stuff I don't have.

By the standards of an American homeless person, or a middle-class Chinese or Somali person, I'm rich.