You want to get big and strong? [Archive]

master killer

01-16-2009, 08:25 PM

Then eat like a beast. (around 4000-4500 kcal a day).
You won't gain a lot of weight on a bodybuilder diet, and freaking over your macro nutrient ratios like a bitch won't do either.
Lift heavy, eat accordingly, and keep the reps low, and the exercises simple.
Squats, deadlifts, powercleans, benchpress, overhead press and perhaps rows should do the trick in the meantime.

This thread is now about tips if you want to get big and strong. :)
I hope you find this thread more helpful than those of Toothlessfaggot. :)

Kim Jong Il

01-16-2009, 08:40 PM

Lifting heavy doesn't do a great deal for hypertrophy, that's best attained through higher reps with light or moderate weights. Power cleans are worthless for hypertrophy and while the muscles may be under significant tension while performing them, this occurs of such a short period of time that it's impossible to gain any hypertrophy doing them. Power cleans are also pretty worthless for strength training as well, as they promote incorrect weightlifting technique, the classic (full) lifts should be employed instead. Rows are a lackluster exercise as well. Also the bitch press and pressing in general is a pretty fruitless effort, the only lifts one should be concerned with for strength training are the snatch, the clean and jerk and the front squat.

And speaking of Toothless, how long do you think it will be before he comes around here panhandling for moderator status?

master killer

01-16-2009, 09:28 PM

Lifting heavy doesn't do a great deal for hypertrophy, that's best attained through higher reps with light or moderate weights. Power cleans are worthless for hypertrophy and while the muscles may be under significant tension while performing them, this occurs of such a short period of time that it's impossible to gain any hypertrophy doing them. Power cleans are also pretty worthless for strength training as well, as they promote incorrect weightlifting technique, the classic (full) lifts should be employed instead. Rows are a lackluster exercise as well. Also the bitch press and pressing in general is a pretty fruitless effort, the only lifts one should be concerned with for strength training are the snatch, the clean and jerk and the front squat.

And speaking of Toothless, how long do you think it will be before he comes around here panhandling for moderator status?

Explain your reasoning a little better and you might be on the way of changing the way I train. :)

TCstyle2

01-16-2009, 09:39 PM

Explain your reasoning a little better and you might be on the way of changing the way I train. :)

The whole high v. low volume argument is done to death. Body chemistry differs dramatically from person to person and what works well for you may not work for someone else. With that said I think it is important to clarify what we mean when we say "hypertrophy". Because low rep exercises (ranging from 3-5 reps/set) cause "hypertrophy" also. However with this type of training youre increasing the size of your fast twitch fibers... which is hypertrophy, but not cellular hypertrophy. If you want your muscles to look bigger I would say you should work in the range of 8-12 reps/set. If you want dense muscle stay under 8. However if your body is used to 8-12 rep range maybe you would benefit more from a 5-8 range in regards to size.

Trial and error

Bender

01-16-2009, 10:36 PM

Steroids.

/thread
+bump.

Anima Mundi

01-17-2009, 01:05 AM

Pandora, I've no problem with bumping a thread, but at least have something significant to say. And on that note, I've found that I don't really gain any weight, and I've been drinking protein shakes and shit like that like mad for the last few months. And working out, obviously. I see no weight gain, for each pound I shed I gain that amount of muscle.

Kim Jong Il

01-17-2009, 06:03 AM

The whole high v. low volume argument is done to death. Body chemistry differs dramatically from person to person and what works well for you may not work for someone else. With that said I think it is important to clarify what we mean when we say "hypertrophy". Because low rep exercises (ranging from 3-5 reps/set) cause "hypertrophy" also. However with this type of training youre increasing the size of your fast twitch fibers... which is hypertrophy, but not cellular hypertrophy. If you want your muscles to look bigger I would say you should work in the range of 8-12 reps/set. If you want dense muscle stay under 8. However if your body is used to 8-12 rep range maybe you would benefit more from a 5-8 range in regards to size.

Trial and error

That's what I meant, I assume most people aren't lifting for hypertrophy of the sacromeres as it isn't noticeable at all, the only people that would want to engage in that kind of training are people looking to make a weight class in a strength sport.

a334jv2df

01-17-2009, 04:21 PM

That's what I meant, I assume most people aren't lifting for hypertrophy of the sacromeres as it isn't noticeable at all, the only people that would want to engage in that kind of training are people looking to make a weight class in a strength sport.

I will agree that sarcomere hypertrophy, in relation to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, is less useful for developing large muscles. However stating that sarcomere hypertrophy has no "noticeable [effects] at all", in terms of size, is wrong. It does increase the muscle diameter, but also increase fiber density, which in turn renders less gains in actual size. This is also ignoring the fact that hyperplasia may or may not exist.

Many people will argue that dense muscle is more physically attractive then bloat beach muscle... not to mention a lot more practical. And, although it may be harder to develop, large muscles can be a result of sarcomere hypertrophy; they merely take along to build up. A lot of body builders will switch routines periodically and focus on a specific type of hypertrophy. Then, once they stop seeing gains, they switch again and focus on the other type.

This is also ignoring the fact that different people react differently to the same exercise, and not everyone falls under this major generalization.

Also, that is not joepedo...

master killer

01-17-2009, 04:41 PM

Well, I gained 40 pounds in three months of Starting Strength, and it's not fat.
I'm eating around 3500 kcal a day. :)

a334jv2df

01-17-2009, 04:50 PM

Well, I gained 40 pounds in three months of Starting Strength, and it's not fat.
I'm eating around 3500 kcal a day. :)

3 1/2 lbs of muscle a week is a huge gain even for a true beginner. I'm positive it isn't all muscle mass, because that would be superhuman, but regardless those are serious gains. Bulking / cutting has always worked best for me

master killer

01-17-2009, 05:21 PM

3 1/2 lbs of muscle a week is a huge gain even for a true beginner. I'm positive it isn't all muscle mass, because that would be superhuman, but regardless those are serious gains. Bulking / cutting has always worked best for me

Well, of course it isn't all muscle, but I haven't got a gut and I can feel my abs pretty well through my tummy.

Abs are a good indicator of BF. :)
I would post pics but knowing this site I shall not. :D

a334jv2df

01-17-2009, 05:44 PM

Well, of course it isn't all muscle, but I haven't got a gut and I can feel my abs pretty well through my tummy.

Abs are a good indicator of BF. :)
I would post pics but knowing this site I shall not. :D

What is your routine comprised of? Is it a typical 3x5 Bench, Squat, Dead / Press, squat, row? Cause if so then I envy your genetics my good sir

master killer

01-17-2009, 05:52 PM

What is your routine comprised of? Is it a typical 3x5 Bench, Squat, Dead / Press, squat, row? Cause if so then I envy your genetics my good sir

Swap rows for power cleans, add chins and back extensions and that's my routine.

I'm surprised I put on weight by eating 3500 kcal, but that's all I can afford to get.

I wasn't aware that I had good genetics, but again, I'm the only one at my gym with a squat of over 60 lb. (and very few people squat), so I don't waste my time discussing my training.
Once I told a guy about how I drink whole milk and he told me I'd get fat, and that I needed creatine, whey protein and BCAAs.
When I told him I'd rather get ground beef instead of throwing my money away his face went from :) to :mad:.
I'm not saying those supplements are a waste of money, but why use whey when you have milk?
Sorry about the length of this post, by the way.

This forum rocks. :cool:

1337Hendrix

01-18-2009, 07:59 PM

The thing you are all forgetting is the wait time between exercises.

If you want to get big, train like a bodybuilder. That means short wait times between sets, and some super-setting. When you don't wait long between exercises, your muscles fill with blood...giving you the "pumped up" look. Eventually, this will become more permanent.

If you want to get strong, train like a weightlifter. That means long wait times between sets, and breakdown training. Long wait times let your muscles recover better and thus you can give more of an effort each time. Breakdown training can cause Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness, so use it wisely. Also, do lots of different exercises!!! It has been shown that activating muscle fibers in a differing recruitment orders facilitates stronger muscle growth.

Of course, eat your protein and lift heavy. Try some supplemental creatine too.

Sponsored Link

01-19-2009, 12:28 AM

The thing you are all forgetting is the wait time between exercises.

If you want to get big, train like a bodybuilder. That means short wait times between sets, and some super-setting. When you don't wait long between exercises, your muscles fill with blood...giving you the "pumped up" look. Eventually, this will become more permanent.

If you want to get strong, train like a weightlifter. That means long wait times between sets, and breakdown training. Long wait times let your muscles recover better and thus you can give more of an effort each time. Breakdown training can cause Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness, so use it wisely. Also, do lots of different exercises!!! It has been shown that activating muscle fibers in a differing recruitment orders facilitates stronger muscle growth.

Of course, eat your protein and lift heavy. Try some supplemental creatine too.

While I do doubt the reasoning behind what you say (blood fills the muscles, thus inflating them, more and more so) I agree. I do 30 secs, 45 if I'm lazy between sets, and nothing will get you more sore quicker.

1337Hendrix

01-19-2009, 02:48 AM

While I do doubt the reasoning behind what you say (blood fills the muscles, thus inflating them, more and more so) I agree..

Well, its what I've read countless times in various exercise science textbooks over the course of my PFT career.

I just recently got an AFAA certification, and in the textbook they provided, "Personal Fitness: Theory and Practice" it gives the same line of reasoning. They are a nationally accredited organization, if that means anything to you...

Irukanji

01-20-2009, 11:34 AM

Lift, with suggested begining weight, and recommended reps(or add some if you've done a bit of lifting before)

Power cleans are just that. Designed to increase power, not necessarily strength, etc.(40kg-50kg(3-8)
Cleans are good, since they do you legs aswell.(45-55kg(3-8)
Snatch squats are the best all-round exercise, as they keep you whole body tight and help improve balance.(20-25kg(7-10)
Snatch is a pain in the ass, but it should be the fastest out of any lift(20-25kg(3-5))
Clean pulls are good for calves and shoulders(60-70kg(5-8))
The same for snatch pulls(50-60kg(5-8))
Front squats and back squats are good for the legs(duh)(55/60kg respectively, front squats are harder(5-8)
Upright rows are good for upper body(15-20kg(10-15))
Situps are good for your abs, and help keep everything tight when lifting(15-20 reps to start, aim for 60 reps with 20kg+)
Military press is good for arm strength(15-20kg(10-15)
Tricep/bicep curls are good for the same muscles, just do equal reps.(10kg-15kg(10-15)
Calf raises, good for calves and especially good if you walk along beaches, etc(maybe 80kg(8-10)
Bench press(35-40(8-10)

Everything is using a bar of course, and the light weight is to develop good technique. The better the technique, the less injuries, the better you will train and the faster you'll gain muscle.

Remember to eat well, try and cut out most of your fats, and replace with protein. Any spare protein will be burnt as energy if required. Develop a good base on which you can put more muscle. Dont go steadily heavier for a long time. Get into a habit of going progressively heavier for 3 weeks, then do a light week(~25-30% off the total weight). It helps your muscles recover, and allows you to gain more muscle(stops it "plateauing", or whatever it's called).

And get plenty of sleep. Sleep for atleast 9-10 hours a day, and nap during the day if you can. Keep all the reps equal for each session, or maybe start with 2, then go 4, 6, 8, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2(or 2,4,6,4,2) or whatever you feel like. Rest for 30 seconds between each set. If you feel sick, cut back the weight, or dont lift at all. When your sick you get injured much faster, and take longer to heal(since your body is fighting the infection).

And drink lots of water, it helps cleanse toxins and other shit from your kidneys.
And dont smoke(or smoke much)
And avoid taking drugs/working out whilst under the influence
Umm....dunno what else...

The end.

Probably wont help, but bite me.

Kim Jong Il

01-20-2009, 12:40 PM

Lift, with suggested begining weight, and recommended reps(or add some if you've done a bit of lifting before)

Power cleans are just that. Designed to increase power, not necessarily strength, etc.(40kg-50kg(3-8)
Cleans are good, since they do you legs aswell.(45-55kg(3-8)
Snatch squats are the best all-round exercise, as they keep you whole body tight and help improve balance.(20-25kg(7-10)
Snatch is a pain in the ass, but it should be the fastest out of any lift(20-25kg(3-5))
Clean pulls are good for calves and shoulders(60-70kg(5-8))
The same for snatch pulls(50-60kg(5-8))
Front squats and back squats are good for the legs(duh)(55/60kg respectively, front squats are harder(5-8)
Upright rows are good for upper body(15-20kg(10-15))
Situps are good for your abs, and help keep everything tight when lifting(15-20 reps to start, aim for 60 reps with 20kg+)
Military press is good for arm strength(15-20kg(10-15)
Tricep/bicep curls are good for the same muscles, just do equal reps.(10kg-15kg(10-15)
Calf raises, good for calves and especially good if you walk along beaches, etc(maybe 80kg(8-10)
Bench press(35-40(8-10)

Everything is using a bar of course, and the light weight is to develop good technique. The better the technique, the less injuries, the better you will train and the faster you'll gain muscle.

Remember to eat well, try and cut out most of your fats, and replace with protein. Any spare protein will be burnt as energy if required. Develop a good base on which you can put more muscle. Dont go steadily heavier for a long time. Get into a habit of going progressively heavier for 3 weeks, then do a light week(~25-30% off the total weight). It helps your muscles recover, and allows you to gain more muscle(stops it "plateauing", or whatever it's called).

And get plenty of sleep. Sleep for atleast 9-10 hours a day, and nap during the day if you can. Keep all the reps equal for each session, or maybe start with 2, then go 4, 6, 8, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2(or 2,4,6,4,2) or whatever you feel like. Rest for 30 seconds between each set. If you feel sick, cut back the weight, or dont lift at all. When your sick you get injured much faster, and take longer to heal(since your body is fighting the infection).

And drink lots of water, it helps cleanse toxins and other shit from your kidneys.
And dont smoke(or smoke much)
And avoid taking drugs/working out whilst under the influence
Umm....dunno what else...

The end.

Probably wont help, but bite me.

LOL

Irukanji

01-20-2009, 12:51 PM

LOL

lol what. Atleast i posted something that MIGHT help someone.

Yours is just some technical shit that no1 here who needs the info will understand. GTFO.

IWD

03-04-2009, 09:47 PM

The whole high v. low volume argument is done to death. Body chemistry differs dramatically from person to person and what works well for you may not work for someone else. With that said I think it is important to clarify what we mean when we say "hypertrophy". Because low rep exercises (ranging from 3-5 reps/set) cause "hypertrophy" also. However with this type of training youre increasing the size of your fast twitch fibers... which is hypertrophy, but not cellular hypertrophy. If you want your muscles to look bigger I would say you should work in the range of 8-12 reps/set. If you want dense muscle stay under 8. However if your body is used to 8-12 rep range maybe you would benefit more from a 5-8 range in regards to size.

Trial and error

WTF is this? there's something odd about this particular post by joepedo.. it would appear he's lost his touch?:confused:

a334jv2df

03-05-2009, 03:03 AM

Also, that is not joepedo...

...

postdiluvium

03-05-2009, 06:44 PM

I've been lifting for over 10 years. Unfortunately, the whole time I've been lifting wrong. I started off by just joining a gym and just listening to anyone there that can lift heavy weights. So I've always had a bit of muscle, little definition, and what seems to be a natural overall size for my bone structure. Last December I started power lifting. My muscles have grown very well since then and their definition is looking pretty awesome. I've actually lost a bit of weight, but it was probably just body fat. Now I'm way stronger than what I have plateaued at for the last 8 years, a bit thinner, bulkier muscle, good definition, and overall my body is looking like it really fits my narrow bone structure.

I agree with OP, keep it simple and low. Once you have the strength and size, then start doing higher reps and more complex exercises "as needed". "As needed" meaning for focusing on proportion, symmetry, and definition. I also agree with eating a lot. Unless you have access to some pretty hardcore supplements, your going to have to start eating a lot for fuel.

Then again, as others have said, it really depends on the person too. Muscle composition is genetic. Finding a good balance in working on the slow twitch and fast twitch muscles is probably what will excel the rate of your muscle gains.

IWD

03-06-2009, 07:44 PM

...

umm. clearly it is joepedo. look at what his name says. what does it say?

that's what i thought. moron.

lord

03-07-2009, 09:18 PM

Just to back up the op i have been doing this diet (4000-5000 calories a day) mostly in carbohydrates and not much shitty food except a big mac meal today for a week and i have already gained 4 pounds. That is alongside going to the gym and doing heavy weights with medium reps... it definatly works guys.

refugee

03-07-2009, 10:16 PM

umm. clearly it is joepedo. look at what his name says. what does it say?

that's what i thought. moron.

like someone wouldn't have taken that name when joining zoklet. I mean shit, is jeff hunter really jeff hunter?

that's what i thought. moron.