small DWC closet grow

[samhuinn]

Alright guys, sorry it's taken so long to get this started but here it is, my first grow journal. :)

My goals for this grow are ultimately to learn as much as possible. Eventually I want to be able to grow enough for personal use I no longer NEED to buy from other people. I am simply using bag seed until I have a system down well enough to make spending money on good seeds worth it..haha

I chose DWC because from my research it is relatively simple, cheap and low maintenance. Also with DWC you can get very fast results. I live in an apartment with roomates who are helping me with the grow, so I only need to be concerned about stealth from maintenance, who will not enter without my permission, and would have no reason to go into my closet anyway.

::Supplies::

1 x 10 gallon plastic tub
1 x 20 gallon aquarium air pump
1 x 10 gallon submersible water heater
2 x 12in aquarium airstones
2 x 5in hydroponic net baskets
2 x 23W CFL Floodlight 1200 lumens
1 x 23w CFL 1600 lumen
hydroton
rockwool

Honestly for the most part these are simply things I already had sitting around, or just happened to pick up along the way. Like I said, I'm building on the cheap :).

I don't have any pictures of the build process but here is the setup. I germed the seeds in a wet paper towel last weekend, and placed them in the bucket last on Tuesday.

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/IMG_2127.jpg

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/IMG_2122.jpg

Here is the plant on the left as of this afternoon..
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/IMG_2129.jpg

and the plant on the right...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/IMG_2125.jpg

So there is the setup, so far it seems to be going very well. I'll start my questions and concerns in the next post.

[samhuinn]

I really only have two concerns at the moment.

1. My water temperature stays pretty much right at 76F degrees. I know that is more or less the high end for water temps. Is this going to be an issue?? If so, with a nonadjustable heater, how would one keep this at a lower temp? I've read of people turning the airstones or even thermostat off a few hours at a time.

2. For the plant on the right, should I be concerned about how close to the edge of the rockwool pellet the plant seems to be?? The seed must have slid while planting it.

Just a few other general notes. Currently I am not using nutrients. I intend to go with the Fox Farm Hyrdro Trio (http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/products_liqfert3.html) however. I also do not currently have a test kit so don't know the particulars of my water just yet. I will have these soon though, the hyrdo store was closed today :(

So there ya have it. Lemme know what you guys think!

[Dose Me]

It looks great! Could you explain DWC a little bit? I'm excited to see this come to fruit.

As for your questions...do not ask me...zos is the hydro man.

[zos]

looks very solid so far. how deep are they into the water underneath?
just want to make sure the top doesnt get dried out before the roots get well established down in the water. i'd moisten them up once or twice a day if they feel dry for the first couple of weeks at least.
maybe more light, never too much light.
ogyenation sounds good, water pump recirculationg and the air stones should be ok, you can always add more of the air pmps, those're reasonably cheap 5 bucks or so..no such thing as too many bubbles.

other than that just pick a day each week to change out the res, scrub everything down real well and you should be solid.

looking forward to seeing how they turn out, i've only used dwc for clones and veg, even that was kind of modified.

oh since they're cfls you should be able to get the floods closer, not sure how much heat those put off, but it should be low enough to get them within 4 or 5 inches of the plant, i'm to high to do the math but distance decreases energy exponentially. closer you can get them without burning the leaves the better.

[samhuinn]

It looks great! Could you explain DWC a little bit? I'm excited to see this come to fruit.

As for your questions...do not ask me...zos is the hydro man.

Basically Deep Water Culture is a Bubble Bucket (http://www.growkind.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27991). The tub is filled with water, and you use an air pump and the air stones to keep oxygen flowing. The net pots hang just slightly in the water, and the roots grow down. The hydroton and rockwool hold water until the root is long enough to reach the bucket. Then essentially they have direct access to the nutrients and the oxygen and will grow very quickly.

What I'm hoping to be able to do is learn how to quickly vegetate them to maybe 2 feet, and then force flower to a fairly large yield. I'm not expecting major yields yet, and don't quite yet have the room or makings for another bucket to keep a veg and flower area both going. We'll see if either of these are females and how well they do before i start looking into keeping one going for cloning.

[samhuinn]

looks very solid so far. how deep are they into the water underneath?
just want to make sure the top doesnt get dried out before the roots get well established down in the water. i'd moisten them up once or twice a day if they feel dry for the first couple of weeks at least.

the plant on the left has one skinny root pretty deep into the water already actually, the plant on the left not yet. not as of yesterday afternoon that is. I did start dropping some water on the top however.


maybe more light, never too much light.

yeah, I have more bulbs, just need to go out and snag some more fixtures. Is the light basically gonna be my key to fast veg and high yield?? I'm currently at 4000 lumens in a space i figure to be roughly 6 square feet. I'll work on hanging them closer too.

Thanks for the help! I'll keep this updated as much as I can. :)

[zos]

the figure i see thrown around most often if 4-5k lumens per square foot.
luckily you can focus down and get the cfls right up next to the plants and hit that intensity relatively easily.

[peu4000]

Hey man everything looks good. But please do be careful growing in an apt. If you don't get an carbon scrubber your entire apt is going to smell like weed. Like, it will permeate everything. I don't mean to worry you or anything, but I was pretty anxious to get my grow over with after 9 weeks.

I think, when I move out of here I'm going to do a DWC ScroG. zos: I've read that people didn't even have to clean their buckets(they did drain it every week though), just washed with bleach after each harvest. You can't really clean the bucket if there is a screen in the bud.

You are going to get more lights right. Also, what nutrients are you using?

[samhuinn]

Thanks! Yup I have more lights I am going to add, just need to snag some more fixtures. As for the smell, I actually have a high powered air ionizer I intend to run in the closet.

I have read both good and bad things about using this method for air filtering though. Any thoughts??

[Dose Me]

Thanks! Yup I have more lights I am going to add, just need to snag some more fixtures. As for the smell, I actually have a high powered air ionizer I intend to run in the closet.

I have read both good and bad things about using this method for air filtering though. Any thoughts??

I've read on numerous occasions to NOT put ionizers in the same room as your plants. I have one of Jorge Cervante's books' and have also read consistently in High Times that pot just doesn't smell/taste the same if ionizers are in the same room.

Put the ionizer right outside the closet in the area where you think the most stenched air will come out...I'd just put it near the closet in the room that the closet is so it toasts the scent as it comes out.

[samhuinn]

Yeah, that seems like a much better idea. Thanks!

[zos]

Ionizers scare me to be honest, i keep seeing horror stories about people developing breathing problems from spending to long around them, i wouldnt want it running all the time in the same room as me.

[samhuinn]

Ionizers scare me to be honest, i keep seeing horror stories about people developing breathing problems from spending to long around them, i wouldnt want it running all the time in the same room as me.

i've read a lot of those stories too. In a very small, completely enclosed room you can definitely notice the ozone they produce. In a larger room, you can't really tell. Of course that doesn't mean it isn't there, but I imagine the over all concentration isn't nearly as bad.

For the time being it's gonna have to do, unless i get the means/time to build a carbon scrubber between now and flowering, when i'm really gonna need it.

[zos]

yeah, mostly it was people who like slept with one next to their bed or some stupid shite. should be ok, especially if you can keep a window open or good airflow through the room with fans.

[samhuinn]

So here is an update. These girls have been running just over a week.

I lowered the lights quite a bit, still need to snag a few more fixtures however
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/lights.jpg

Here is the plant on the left, and it's roots:
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/plantleft.jpghttp://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rootleft.jpg

Is this one starting to stretch too much?? Or am i just being paranoid? I've got basically an 8in fan constantly running on high, which blows towards the closet door across the plants. Should be plenty of circulation going on I would think.

And the right..
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/plantright.jpghttp://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rootright.jpg

[Dose Me]

They look fine man....My plants are stretching more than that right now and they'll still be alright. Looking great!

[zos]

no worries at all yet, when talking about stretching, you're mostly looking at distance between the nodes...i lost my glasses this morning but i only see the one node on it so far :P

[samhuinn]

I'll throw some pics up when i get home from work but wanted to throw a quick update up 'cause i'm bored..haha.

Anyway these girls have been going for just over two weeks in my tub. I have been using just water, no nutrients, topping off the tub every couple days or so.

The plants seem to be doing well, with the roots growing quite big. I have a slight concern with the plant on the right, the tap root, at the point where it comes out of the basket seems super skinny. Past that it seems to be growing quite well. My worry is it snapping or something when lifting the lid for water refilling or temp checking etc.

At this point I am still not able to pick up nutrients, funds just don't allow it when thinking about needing a test kit as well and what not. I am planning on picking up some more fixtures and loading more lights this weekend. I'm silly with CFL bulbs so just gonna stick with those, and as many fixtures as I can get. I don't know if i'm ever gonna get the speed/quantity I want out of CFL's but anything else in my closet is out of the question.

[zos]

there's always pee.
(i'm halfway kidding, for soil i've done it, half cup to a gallon if i was too broke for veg nutes) not too sure about hydro, it'd be a little weirder.
Good to hear they're doin well.

[Optionryder420]

You can always steal some supplies. Make sure to grab some superthrive and use that, it's especially good to use it within the first few weeks of growing.

I wouldn't use the ionizer, go to a petstore/fishstore and steal some of the boxes of carbon. Lookup the DIY carbon filter, it WILL be a necessity.

More lights for sure!

Looks good so far, gotta eat now but I'll coem back to this.

[zos]

good call on the superthrive, its relatively cheap and worked great for developing roots on my babies. (i just had a little bottle so i didnt use it through veg, but its a good addition)

[Vega]

Are the net baskets submerged in the water or do the roots grow into the water?

[Sir Cornwell]

Ionizers don't do much. Even before flowering the smell will be rich and travel far enough to entice your neighbors. Your clothes and everything you own will carry the scent.

Are you using 24hr lights until you drop it to 12hrs for flowering? You can get plain plastic ceiling-type fixtures in the electrical section at hardware stores and screw them on to boards, need wires/plugs too. Can't you put in a touch of houseplant fertilizer that you pick up for $5?

[peu4000]

Ionizers don't do much. Even before flowering the smell will be rich and travel far enough to entice your neighbors. Your clothes and everything you own will carry the scent.

Are you using 24hr lights until you drop it to 12hrs for flowering? You can get plain plastic ceiling-type fixtures in the electrical section at hardware stores and screw them on to boards, need wires/plugs too. Can't you put in a touch of houseplant fertilizer that you pick up for $5?

That fertilizer is meant for soil, so I dont know if it would fuck up his system or plants.

[zos]

as long as you know what you're looking for in houseplant ferts you can, definitly for vegging stuff. anything high in nitrogen is fine (nitrogens the first number on them n-p-k), any concentrated liquid at least, obviously no time release stuff.
if its striaght from the faucet, assume its hard water and use half as much as it tells you to.
Underferting is a lot less likely to get you into trouble then over.

[samhuinn]

Are the net baskets submerged in the water or do the roots grow into the water?

Sorry for the delay on this. The net baskets are just barely in the water, just about an inch or so. It's just enough to keep the hydroton and rock-wool moist enough until the root makes it down into the reservoir.

[samhuinn]

OK, update actually with pics. Things are starting to look a little down. Been 3 weeks in the tub at this point.

The plant on the right is looking pretty rough. This is the one I had concerns with about the root...

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rightsick1.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rightsick2.jpg
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rootrightsick.jpg

The plant on the left still seems to be doing well but showing signs of browning leaves like the other one...

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/leftsick1.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rootleftsick.jpg

Still no nutes. Mostly tap water, though I top off the res with filtered water. Water temp stays between 74F-76F. I have also added a fire blanket to help reflect light from the top and the one open side. All other sides are white walls.

I have read of people using small amounts of hydrogen peroxide in the water to help combat algae and what not. Anyone have any thoughts on this or math on how much to use??

Any thoughts on what may be happening to the one plant?? and if so, any saving it or the other one before it gets too far gone??

Thanks!!

[zos]

your roots look beautiful, no need for hydrogen peroxide unless they start looky brownish or icky.
hmm, good solid root work on them, i'm surprised they arent hitting a growth spurt.
just the usual advice, more lights, and some grow nutes.

[samhuinn]

Ionizers don't do much. Even before flowering the smell will be rich and travel far enough to entice your neighbors. Your clothes and everything you own will carry the scent.

hrmm..right on. I've been using it quite a bit more due to the fact it's fucking cold outside so I've just been lazy and smoking inside. :) I can always tell when that thing has been on for a long time, and it's a bit rough to breath to be honest. This leads me to think I really don't want the thing on 24/7 anyway.

Are you using 24hr lights until you drop it to 12hrs for flowering? You can get plain plastic ceiling-type fixtures in the electrical section at hardware stores and screw them on to boards, need wires/plugs too. Can't you put in a touch of houseplant fertilizer that you pick up for $5?

Yes I am running the lights 24hrs until going to 12/12 for flowering. This (and Zos) reminds me I do have some basic MG Pant food. I need to take a look at to see if it will do me any good. Just kind of assumed it would do more harm than good. Still with out any testing equipment, I dunno how far I want to go, since I won't really know what is going on. haha

[samhuinn]

your roots look beautiful, no need for hydrogen peroxide unless they start looky brownish or icky.
hmm, good solid root work on them, i'm surprised they arent hitting a growth spurt.
just the usual advice, more lights, and some grow nutes.

Yeah, I've been expecting them to start shooting up any day now really. The roots on the left have been constantly growing.

More lights this week and hopefully starting nutes at the turn of the year :)

[zos]

if its liquid plant food i'd say go for it, you want something with high N, (thats the first of the three numbers somewhere on it #-#-#.
take half what it says per gallon, then round that down. a little goes a long way.
tricky part is a few days later when you add water to it, if you can change the res once a week, dont worry about adding any more nutes until you res change again.

[samhuinn]

Here are some updated pictures.

The leaves don't look happy at all :(

This is the plant on the right, the one i've been most concerned about...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rightsick3.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rightsick4.jpg

Here is the plant on the left, which seems to be going the same route as the other..
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/leftsick2.jpg

I don't have any updated pictures of the roots, 'cause i didn't think about it, and now too lazy to take/edit more but they seem to continue to grow.

Last night I added some MG Plant Food (http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productTemplate.jsp?proId=prod140018&itemId=cat50106). By the suggestion of Zos I took the recommended usage and halved it.

So for indoor plants it says 1 packet per 2 gallons of water. I have a 10 gallon tub filled to roughly 9 gallons. Per instructions would mean 4.5 packets if watering regular plants with 9 gallons of water. Halve that for my hydro system and ya have 2.25 packets for 9 gallons of water.

I'm hoping these girls will turn around, but ultimately doesn't take much for me to start some new ones. The question though is what is my issue? I know I need more light, which is fairly easily fixable once the holidays are over. I'm fairly confused as to why the roots seem to continue to thrive while the leaves seem to be hurting. Is this mostly a light issue as well??

We'll see how they start looking after a few days with the added food. Anyone have any suggestions though??
Thanks!!

[zos]

the lack of new growth says lights to me.
they just don't have enough to work with. its not nute burn or lock out, since you didnt have any in there.
lack of nutes shouldn't stop growth entirely though, my babies grew even on straight tap water under the thousand watter, just slower.
it doesn't look like there's any upward growth on them at all, i can't see any shoots of new stem development at least.
The leaves could just be old leaves dieing off, with nothing to replace them.

[samhuinn]

yeah, that's what I figure. I'm currently at 4000 lumen, all lights within a couple inches of the plants, so figure i'm getting close to that as an actual number. But it's split between the two.

Lights are a real easy fix just requiring some time and cash. Hopefully this weekend. Any thoughts on a minimum I should ad? Obviously the more the better, but what do ya'll think is the minimum I could do with just these two plants?? Again at this point i'm just happy with a result..haha.

[zos]

my buddys currently getting by with 4 cfls over 3 small plants ina 2x2 closet, but he painted the walls and such too to add reflectivity.
he started with only 2 lights and lost a plant within days, added the other 2 and suddenly things took off.
shoot for a minimum of 5k lumens per plant, more if you can manage. and as close as possible without burning them.

[Mor3BL7]

OP needs a 1000 watt HPS

[Dose Me]

Yeah you probably need more than 4000 lumens. I think a 23w CFL puts out like 2200 or 2300.

You need to cram as many CFL's in there as you can handle. CFL's make plants flourish but you really have to almost overkill it.

[samhuinn]

OP needs a 1000 watt HPS

yes I do. not currently an option.

[zos]

everyone needs a thousand watter! or four!

Moar light!

[Dose Me]

By the way you linked to those Miracle Grow single packs Issue. In my experience they work great for vegging. They're extremely easy to dose and they've brought some plants back from nutritional starvation.

I wouldn't use it for flowering but just thought I'd let you know I used the same exact shit and I concur.

[samhuinn]

So got some more lights in today. Sitting at over 8000 lumen total, with proximity and what not imagine each plant is getting over 4000 lumen on their own at the moment.

Just 4 days after adding the food, and one evening of the added lights, the girls seem to be perking right up. I am expecting a growth spurt any time now. I'll post some pictures later this evening.

[zos]

woot!

[samhuinn]

Alright, so here are some updated pictures..

Right:
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/right.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/right2.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rootr.jpg

Left:
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/left.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/left2.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rootl.jpg

The color is still a bit icky, but things seem to be moving a little fast and furious now :)

[tariel]

Small question. Do you simply have the airstones in the nute resevoir and wait for the roots to reach down to the nutes?

I have seen a similar, but slightly different set up here: http://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/234626-rosemans-diy-bubbleponics-tutorial.html

This one seems similar except it uses a submersible pump to keep the rockwool cubes moist with highly aierated nute solution. It seems to be a hybrid between DWC and a dripfeed set up. Maybe this would be a better alternative?

[samhuinn]

Small question. Do you simply have the airstones in the nute resevoir and wait for the roots to reach down to the nutes?

I have seen a similar, but slightly different set up here: http://www.rollitup.org/dwc-bubbleponics/234626-rosemans-diy-bubbleponics-tutorial.html

This one seems similar except it uses a submersible pump to keep the rockwool cubes moist with highly aierated nute solution. It seems to be a hybrid between DWC and a dripfeed set up. Maybe this would be a better alternative?

yeah I've read through this. With my space limitations it isn't an option for me.

Basically in the pictures you can see the plants are lined up on one side of the bucket. I have both airstones set on the bottom of this side as well.

[Dose Me]

Has there been good new growth sam?

My old man threw me an air pump and some air tubing today (he loves aquariums). I think I'm going to pick up some air stones and start messing with a small hydro system like yours just to learn the principles. I'll be droppin you some questions.

[samhuinn]

Yeah there has been quite a bit of leaf growth. They are both still quite short and the leaves turn color real quick though.

I'm gonna scrub the tub and re-nute tonight. I'll have some more pictures to post too.

[samhuinn]

Ok, I know forever on the update, but holidays, work, laziness etc...

Anyway, the girls are still alive but neither of them are looking great. Also having been in vegetation for roughly 6 weeks I was hoping for some more growth...

Here is the plant on the left, it still seems to be producing leaves, but nothing on the way of upwards growth. The roots still seem to be good, though perhaps a bit brown...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/left_30.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/left_30a.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/left_30b.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/lroots_30.jpg

The plant on the right I think may be a lost cause...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/right_30.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rroot_30.jpg

All the leaves for all plants are fairly yellow.

I scrubbed and refed the tub over the weekend. I can't imagine my issues are nute lockout since I am using so little.

Any thoughts as to what hold these girls back??
Thanks!

[zos]

i'm looking back over everything and don't see anything anywhere about nutes. what are you using? i'd say its time to drop the 20 dollars for some real hydro nutes mate, those essentially still look like the baby cuttings i keep in the tap water cloning tank.

[samhuinn]

Here ya go Zos..

Here are some updated pictures.

Last night I added some MG Plant Food (http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productTemplate.jsp?proId=prod140018&itemId=cat50106). By the suggestion of Zos I took the recommended usage and halved it.

So for indoor plants it says 1 packet per 2 gallons of water. I have a 10 gallon tub filled to roughly 9 gallons. Per instructions would mean 4.5 packets if watering regular plants with 9 gallons of water. Halve that for my hydro system and ya have 2.25 packets for 9 gallons of water.


Dose mentioned using the same thing for vegetation as well. I understand the use of nutes for super quality grows, but is it truly that important just to get something going??

If nutes are the issue that is fine, I can stop being cheap and pick some up haha. But if the issue is bigger than that, I don't want to add possible other problems with the addition of more chemicals, while not fixing the original one.

My other thoughts are airflow and over all temperature of the room, but from what I can tell and have read, everything seems to be pretty efficient. My lighting is at the low end of the spectrum, again something fairly easily fixable between white walls, and the fire blanket, most all the light I am putting out should be put to use.

Mostly just rambling at this point. Thanks for all the info and help though guys. I'll keep futzing around with these two and see what I can get. I might toss a few seeds into a soil pot and throw it back there as well, just to see what happens.

If nothing makes it..I'll start over haha.

[zos]

doubt airflow or temp would be that major, my rooms gone from 59 degrees to almost 80 degrees in the summer and it didnt effect them much.
extreme temp changes and such arent good, but shouldnt be retarding growth that much.
more oxygenation in the water couldn't hurt as well, mebbe another airstone or two.
are the roots still growing?
i'm jsut trying to think of anything else that changes between my small stuff in the tank and when they start to blow up, but really nutes and the massive increase in light is it.
how many cfl's are you up to now?

[Dose Me]

Looking at those pictures it looks as if your plants are suffering at least three major nutrient deficiencies...

The yellowing from Nitrogen (N) Deficiency, the large blotches look like progressive-to-late stage Phosphorus (p) deficiency, and the curled burnt tips are late stage Potassium (K) deficiency.

You might have already known all that but my limited knowledge on this shows your only problem is nutrient. Your plants look like they got as big as they could with what nutrients they were provided. This doesn't mean you have enough light in there to get them to the end...but it means with better nutrients they would have gotten bigger than they were.

I hope that makes sense. I also have very limited knowledge on hydroponics so don't take my word for gold.

[samhuinn]

Yeah, what you guys are saying makes sense. My only previous experience is with throwing a seed in a pot and setting it on my back porch. With no interaction at all from me that sucker blew up (until i broke it, then had to move it inside).

I realize hydroponics as a different beast and the manual addition of nutes is needed much more. I should be able to pick some up this weekend. Think adding them to these plants will do any good?? Or should I start fresh??

As for lights I'm sitting at 5x26w CFL 1650 lumen per each set within a couple inches of the plants. All the walls are painted white or covered in fireblanket, as is the top. My growing area is less than 4 square feet.

I know I've been trying to sneak by on way less than is needed, but ultimately that's kind of my goal, try to grow with as little as possible. I've just been taking it a bit too far..haha. More light and nutes are easily fixable, and will probably be taken care of this weekend.

[Dose Me]

That's about 8k lumens so you should be fine for the starting stage.

And yes...when you plant a seed in soil the plant can draw nutrients from the soil around it. When you place a seed in a medium for hydroponic use there are no nutrients. Rockwool and hardened clay will provide absolutely nothing to the roots.

I would say start fresh..those are a little past worth your time. That all depends on your seed availability though.

[zos]

they're still alive, you can bring em back.
you'll learn more by either fixing them or killing them.

[samhuinn]

seeds are not an issue really. I'm just using bag seed at the moment. But Zos makes a good point.

I'm gonna pick up some nutes and more lights this weekend, try to bring these two plants back, as well as throw a couple seeds in some pots to toss back there.

[zos]

hey sam, i was thinking about your problem earlier and something occurred to me.
with hydro nutes, my tapwater ends up buffered down to right about where it needs to be, but i don't know about yours, or what the miracle grow might be doing to the PH.
you can get a PH test kit from most gardening stores, mebbe even from like a pool supply store.
the cheap ones are about 6 bucks, its just a drip kit that you compare the color in a test tube of your water to the chart.
See if you can find one, its possible that you've just got really odd water, or the nutes may be buffering it weird so that none of the nutes are useable by the plant.

[samhuinn]

Thanks Zos, that's something to keep in mind. I do need to get a PH kit, and you are correct should be able to pick 'em up real cheap at a pool supply store

Sorry been a minute since I've updated, been kind of crazy round here lately. Anyway, I HAVE added the correct nutrients now (I am going with Fox Farm) and both plants are most definitely on the mend.

I'm moving on to another slight issue. With it being winter here, and the heat running in the apartment, the over all temp of my grow room has risen. With the addition of more lights, this has also caused the water temp of my reservoir to remain much higher. Currently my water temperature sits around 80F-84F much much too high, especially for root development. I intend to start with frozen gatorade bottles to toss in the water in order to lower the temp, but I am concerned about over all cleanliness and effort involved to keep this up.

Has anyone else run into issues with water temp? I've read all sorts of options, h2o2 (my roots are getting a little brown and slimy, so may add a bit anyway), more air (thought about another airstone anyway as well), fans (have one running across the plants/lid but not the actual water) and the frozen water bottles. I know there are tons of water chillers etc out there, but as usual, I'm looking for a cheaper and easily maintained solution.

As always, thanks for all the help!!

[zos]

that one i havent run into, i'm normally desperately trying to warm mine up.

i 've heard like with ez cloners the pump itself tends to raise the water temp if its running all the time, so people do a half hour on half hour off to keep the temp regulated, dunno what you've got running in the rez but that might help.
The nutes did help them though?
good to hear.

[samhuinn]

yeah i've heard of that as well with the pumps Zos. I may give that a whirl. I'm gonna try some experimenting this weekend, hopefully I will be able to pick up some more equipment as well (always more lights, possibly some more air).

And yes, BOTH plants seem to be turning around quite nicely. I'll throw some pics up later. The roots are getting kind of brown however, so I intend to throw a little h2o2 in the tub as well. From my understanding, this is also supposed to help nutrient uptake which for the time at least can't hurt as they are spending a lot of energy recovering at this point.

[Dose Me]

If the roots are beginning to brown I cannot imagine that is good...glad to hear they are turning around. I've got an air pump and some hosing standing by...I'm really going to get down and tinker with hydroponics sometime soon and I'm watching this thread.

[samhuinn]

I'll get better at updating than Dose :)

I have quite a bit to update, but will wait till I get the pictures up, which will make things easier.

Quick note on the brown roots. One plant seems to be clear while the other one seems to be getting kind of nasty. On the addition of H2O2 to the res, I have reconsidered. In some of my reading I've seen using this in conjunction with organic nutes (such as Fox Farm) will do more harm than good. Once I read it, was kind of a face palm situation, since the the H2O2 is added in order to help keep organic matter down.

More coming soon...

[zos]

i use a capful of hygrozyme, it's supposed to be enzymes and amino acids to help the plant break down dead organic matter and things like that, buts its pretty pricey.

[samhuinn]

Alright guys so here it is, pictures and all.

I began adding the proper nutrients to the plants last Saturday, these pictures are from moments ago. Pictures on the left are the most recent pictures PRIOR to adding nutes.

First the plant on the right, which always seemed the sickest...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/right_30.jpg ---->http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutesright1.jpg

Here are some root comparisons for that plant...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/rroot_30.jpg---->http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutesrghtroots.jpg

Now for the plant on the left, which never seemed to get as bad as the other...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/left_30b.jpg---->http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutesleft.jpg

and the roots, they still seem to be growing, and don't seem to be going as brown as the other plant...
http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/lroots_30.jpg---->http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutesleftroot.jpg

I have been keeping the water level in the res quite a bit lower, as well as improved airflow in the grow area a bit, this seems to have helped keep the water temp a little lower. I still sit in the mid to high 70's but it's better than mid 80's :)

Currently for lights I have 7 x 26w CFL (1650 lumen per). I have mixed the lights so I now have 4 soft white and 3 daylight (warm white). Once I am able to find a hardware store with some more socket adapters (apparently a valuable commodity in these parts), I will be adding 2 more 26w daylight CFL's. I am also considering adding more air stones.

I am quite happy with the turn around my girls have taken. I thought for sure the one on the right was a goner haha. Now I have a few things I need to consider. The one plant is obviously much further along than the other. Due to my limited space and single setup I can't really separate the two and I have a feeling once the larger plant is completely healed, it's gonna blow up big. This means I will probably need to start flowering long before the other one is ready. Ultimately it's not a big deal, my plan is to mostly cater towards the larger plant, and just see what happens with the other.

I did have another idea however, which is to turn this in to a SCOG grow as well. This would allow the larger plant to get bigger, while not maxing out the vertical space, and let the smaller plant catch up. This is possibly something I may have to do anyway, as I'm not positive I have enough vertical space as it is. I guess my concern is these plants have been stressed enough already, I know scrog is fairly low stress training, but I don't want to freak them out.

Have any of you guys worked with SCROG in a small DWC setup??

[zos]

scrog will work out the same in hydro as elsewhere, it should be a solid method to maximize your space.
Don't be afraid to trim those bitches back either, (once they're bigger)
it seems to cause a growth spurt as the repair the dmg. glad they're perking back up some.

[samhuinn]

Week 2 running with proper nutrients and lighting...

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes2right.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes2left.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes2left2.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes2rootsleft.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes2rootsrght.jpg

They are coming along nicely. Still having issues with temperature. Ultimately the closest is just far too hot over all.

[zos]

hey hey, those look a lot healthier.
gj mate. now aren't you glad you didnt just give up on them?

[Dose Me]

I do have to say they've come through pretty well...plants have such an amazing ability to just regenerate out of seemingly nothing.

I'm glad they pulled through!

[samhuinn]

yeah, I'm so very happy with their progress. :) :)

I am pretty concerned about the heat though. Water temps getting into the 90's. Any ideas on keeping a closet cool?? haha

[zos]

jebus dude, that'll cook em. short of dumping ice trays in their several times through the day i got nothing.
small res, like two gallons right?

Found some options in a thread over at rollitup, some of these look to be very low cost.


Note: submersible pumps add heat. Use an external/inline pump to minimize heat transfer. High quality digital thermometers are recommended.

* Add cold water when topping up.
Note: abrupt changes in temperature may shock roots.
* Frozen pop bottles/milk jugs.
Fill to ¾. Keep extras in the freezer to replace thawed bottles with new frozen ones, replace as necessary. Note: "Freezy packs" tend to crack and leak.
* Increase size of reservoir
Larger volumes are slower to warm up, pH/ppm is more stable and tank changes are less frequent.
* Put reservoir/bubbling buckets onto floor, or set on concrete blocks to conduct heat away from the water.
* Insulate
Paint all exposed system surfaces white or use reflective material (such as mylar or reflectix). Wrap insulation around tank. Use a camping cooler for a reservoir (pre-insulated and comes with a drain!).
* Swamp cooler
Blow a fan directly across the surface of reservoir for excellent evaporative cooling. This method works well (expect a 10F drop in res. temp), but humidity and tds will increase, and more frequent topping up will be required.

430 scrog "?add a computer fan to a duct blowing into your tank (cut air exit holes). You can run it on a timer (1 hr on, 1 hr off). I run a float valve to keep it topped up."
Make sure lid and reservoir can be easily removed.
* Blow air through the root zone
Divert small amounts of cool intake air directly into the root zone.
* Remote reservoir
In-room reservoirs will quickly heat up to room temp. Put the reservoir (and ballasts) outside of the grow room to minimize tank heating.
* Airstone / Power head / Venturi air supply should be drawn from a cool source (ie. Cool outside air).
* Peltier coil (Thermoelectric chillers).
(Bayou grower) "I use an Ice Probe ($125) and it works well. It uses 50 watts and pulls the temp down 4 degrees under ambient. Cools 10 gal or less." (see coolworksinc.com for more models)
* Reservoir chillers
These are electric A/C units made specifically for cooling water. (Search for "Aquarium chillers")
(smokin fl) "?a heavy box with fan and compressor coils, with a 5 foot refrigeration line with a titanium coil at the end. All you do is plug it in, set the controller and put the coil in the res. Circulate nutes for the best cooling. Get a bigger model than you need."
* Cooling coil

A coil of stainless steel is put into the reservoir, cold tap water is trickled through the coil and the overflow runs down the drain. A circulation pump in thte rez makes the cooling more efficient. Adjust tap flow as necessary (Water use can reasonable). No power, unlimited cooling, quiet.

[samhuinn]

Thanks for that btw Zos, I stumbled on the same thread and came up with a few ideas. Currently I am swapping frozen gatorade bottles to keep the water down. I have also added a fire blanket to cover the lid and the rest of the tub. I am hoping this will help reflect some heat (as well as helping to get the light to those bottom branches). I am also looking for a better location for my air pump. In my current setup, being so close to the lights and the residual heat, it is essentially just blowing hot air into the tub.

I changed the tub tonight so got some more in depth pictures. This is currently 3 weeks with the proper nutrients, going on like 2 months over all I think.

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes3.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes3a.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes3b.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes3c.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes3d.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes3e.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/nutes3f.jpg

the trunk and roots of the one plant are strong! I am still looking at adding a screen for scrog, but at the moment they seem to be doing a pretty good job going horizontal on their own.

[zos]

hehe, the one on the rights about how tall mine are when i throw them into bud.

mebbe even a little bigger, 6 inches or so usually.

[samhuinn]

oh yeah?? There hasn't been much vertical growth at all since things have started to turn around. For the most part it has just been filling out. I'm glad to see the plant on the left seems to be catching up fairly quickly too.

I know you've got a more impressive set up and more plants, but what type of yield do you usually get when budding at that size?? Just for my own education purposes I may let them go through this tub then go ahead and switch to flower the next time i scrub.

[peu4000]

hehe, the one on the rights about how tall mine are when i throw them into bud.

mebbe even a little bigger, 6 inches or so usually.

How many plants to you run/yield?

[zos]

How many plants to you run/yield?

that's... a little more personal then i'm willing to get. More than the 1 per sq foot most suggest, since I start them so small.
Probable more than i should be trying in the space i've got. i know SoG is supposed to form a nice canopy, but it feels like they're choking each other out a bit.

[Dose Me]

Peu is a little nosey :hrmph:

I asked him if he was part of the government, of course he said no.


But Sam...they look amazing man. If I were you I would have scrapped em and started over. From now on I'll think twice before I kick em to the curb!

[samhuinn]

But Sam...they look amazing man. If I were you I would have scrapped em and started over. From now on I'll think twice before I kick em to the curb!

Thanks Dose! I know what you mean, I'm glad I decided to stick with 'em. It's taught me quite a bit and I'm given me more appreciation for the resilience of these plants.

Gonna see how they progress through the next 2 weeks and decide what to do at the next tub change. If they continue to grow as they have been, my little area is gonna be pretty full so I will quite possibly start to flower at that time.

[zos]

keep in mind, during the first month of flower they are likely to triple, or more in size.

[samhuinn]

yeah good point Zos. I'm gonna keep a close eye on 'em with the fresh nutes and see how things go. I'm not too concerned about yield, just with getting a usable final product and decent routine at this point.

I've already been thinking of adjustments for the next grow, including possibly adding another plant.

[Dose Me]

Yeah they do just as much growing in the flower phase as they do in veg...if not more. Plant accordingly!

[zos]

i elarn new things every time..and occasionally seem to fail more spectacularly.

Just had some people in talking about replacing some windows in my house, learned all sorts of interesting things about how to buy good glass, makes me want to start using air cooled lights, i could get a thousand watter right up on the girls.

[peu4000]

i elarn new things every time..and occasionally seem to fail more spectacularly.

Just had some people in talking about replacing some windows in my house, learned all sorts of interesting things about how to buy good glass, makes me want to start using air cooled lights, i could get a thousand watter right up on the girls.

Hell yeah man. Cool tubes rock.

[samhuinn]

So, last wednesday I switched the plants to 12/12. This is the first time the plants have not been under 24 lights since they have started. At that point I simply let them finish out the resv, adding fresh water as needed until Sunday when I cleaned the tub. With this water I added Fox Farm Tiger Bloom nutrients....

I guess just see for yourself haha...sorry if they load slow, got a new DSLR and some of these are kinda high res.

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/flower1wk1.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/flower1wk2.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/flower1wk3.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/flower1wk4.jpghttp://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/flower1wk5.jpg

So, things have been going quite well I feel :). The one plant that was behind is not nearly as big as the other, but there isn't enough room for them both to get that bushy anyway haha. Is it at all possible to tell sex at this point? I know many of the shoots coming from the stems are more branches, but many also seem like they could be the beginning of buds.

The other thing of note is the browning of some of the leaves on the edges. For the most part what you can see in the pictures is all that seem that way. More than likely just some lower fan leaves not quite getting enough light, but interested in other opinions.

As you can see I have not added a screen, for SCROG yet. I've gone through a couple possible attempts but nothing that has worked all that well in the space. It's possible I might JUST have enough room, or could get away with some easy LST (tie some strings and just get them angled towards the walls a bit more. The only thing is I should start one or the other soon haha.

[zos]

looks like text book early stage nute burn, go a little easier on them next time.

and holy shit! when did they get so big? they were like 6 inches tall in the last picture.

you just turned the lights down? thats gonna be a fucking beast. can i haz some root porn pictures too? scales a little hard to tell, what is that 2 or 3 feet tall?

the other one end up dieing on you?

[samhuinn]

nope both of 'em are there, the little one is on the right, it's doing well and had I let it stay in veg would have gotten to the size of the other easily. I dunno how much that one is gonna put out though, the beast on the left is doing it's best to block it out...haha. Both of 'em at that size i think would have spent too much time fighting each other for space.

I'll get some root pictures up for ya tonight. As for size, I think 2.5ft at most. remember they are sitting on top of a 10gallon tub, which is probably not quite a foot high.

[samhuinn]

here is a picture of the roots from last week. I'll have more up after I check on them tonight...

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/flower1wkrts.jpg

[Dose Me]

You can def tell the sex of at least the big one...get us some better pictures.

The 2nd picture in the one of the plants looks like it has one ball...but its so blurry I can't possibly tell for sure. Give us a close up some of the node-joints and we'll be able to see for sure.

But yeah...whatever the kink was in your technique at the beginning is obviously completely worked out....looks like you really got the hang of it...they're HUGE compared to before. Keep it up!

[samhuinn]

I'll throw some pictures up for second opinions later, but pretty sure both plants are male.

So the question, the other part of this is I always intended to use the leaves and trimmings and what not for making butter and or bubblehash. I've read some people say male plants are great for this, and others say don't waste your time.

Any opinions on that?? For the most part I'm thinking about just taking 'em down and getting started with my autoflower plan haha.

[Dose Me]

I would say toss those. How much THC the male side of the strain carries within it's leaves/stems varies greatly from strain to strain. You could have one strain that has male plants with a higher THC content then some mid-grade...others of great genetic quality might be close to nothing.

Bubblehash (If you're talking about the bags and ice and such) only works with clippings that actually have Trichomes on them...the ice hardens the trichs and they call off through the holes in the ice-o-lator bags.

Just remember though Sam, I would have given up on those plants when they were young...so do what you will because it seems to work out of you.

[zos]

ouch sam, i'm sorry man.
I suppose it couldnt hurt to break em down and cannabutter them, or BHO it.

hell actually getting in some practice in processing trim and such now, vs when you know its sugar frosted could be a good thing.

I know i fucked up my first QWISO attempt because i didnt know what the fuck i was doing. How long have you been i flower again? Def give us some pictures.

[samhuinn]

The plants have been on 12/12 for 12 days now actually. When the lights come on tonight I'll get some pictures for you guys and throw 'em up.

I actually went ahead and ordered a couple autoflower seeds I was looking at as well. Happened to have the money at the time and figured might as well. :) Chances are I'll let these 2 go until the seeds show up, then probably cut 'em down and make some butter. Even if it's weak haven't really lost any more time or effort.

I've got two strains coming in, a Lowryder/Pakistan hybrid, and a specialized super quick diesel type. I mostly got the second 'cause it was cheap and claimed to be the fastest growing on the market so piqued my interest. Once they get here i'll probably start one of each. At which point I'll go ahead and open a new thread..haha

[Dose Me]

I actually went ahead and ordered a couple autoflower seeds I was looking at as well. Happened to have the money at the time and figured might as well. :) Chances are I'll let these 2 go until the seeds show up, then probably cut 'em down and make some butter. Even if it's weak haven't really lost any more time or effort.


Seeds, especially if you have to order from overseas, always take awhile to show up...and there is always the chance they wont at all. It's good you ordered them now so you'll be ready.

Also...if they show to be male for sure do not let them go past 2 weeks. There is an off-chance one of them could be an early burster and shoot pollen in your closet. You can save yourself the risk of accidentally pollinating your new crop and/or the trouble of a thorough cleansing of your growroom.


I've got two strains coming in, a Lowryder/Pakistan hybrid, and a specialized super quick diesel type. I mostly got the second 'cause it was cheap and claimed to be the fastest growing on the market so piqued my interest. Once they get here i'll probably start one of each. At which point I'll go ahead and open a new thread..haha

I also can't wait to see this. Autoflowers caught my eye in the past as well but it never came to fruit. It will be nice to have a good autoflower thread.

[zos]

ouch, i never considered the lead time, if you dont have room to sprout a bunch, and no way to be sure they'll be female. Are they feminized seeds?
Damn, and you can't clone autoflowers...theres got to be some way to make that easier on you than waiting a month at a time to pray for a girl, let me think about it a bit.

[samhuinn]

the seeds I bought so far are feminized, wanted to make sure this time haha. 3 of each (a couple free regular feminized seeds were tossed in as well.)

At this point I don't have the room to keep a clone operation going. And upon further inspection I'm gonna stick with the tub I currently have, doing 2 plants at a time. I have the makings for a screen I think will work pretty well, and may attempt to SCROG these from the start. I'm thinking about letting the fist ones just go though to see what they do. Don't wanna throw too many things into the mix at once.

Just realized in the time I've spent with these two plants, I could be well on my way to my second harvest with the autoflower strains I have purchased haha. Oh well.. all part of the learning I guess. At least this gave me a good idea as to what i DON'T want to see when sexing (assuming I'm correct). Also helped show me how bad plants can look and still be able to come back strong.

[zos]

i've got high hopes for the aerogarden thing, once i get it up and running i'll let you guys know how it works out.

Found some on amazon for 80 bucks.

[samhuinn]

Here are some pictures of the nodes. I may wrong on the smaller plant, it might not be quite showing sex yet, but the larger one seems pretty definite...

http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/sex1.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/sex2.jpg http://yvtv.oblivioninc.com/mp3/sex3.jpg

On another note, my seeds were packaged yesterday :)

[Dose Me]

You're 100% correct

The one is male and the other one I can't tell yet.

[zos]

i can see balls on the middle picture, the others either they are too blurry, or my eyes are.

[samhuinn]

yeah, the first two pictures are of the larger plant. the last picture the smaller one. I dunno what I'll do if the smaller one turns up to be female. Should probably go ahead and take down the larger one just in case though.

[zos]

Def, the less chance of getting pollen in your area the better. i'd wait on the little one until you know for sure though.

[samhuinn]

so as i went to take down the definite male i realized something...the roots of both these plants are completely entangled with each other. I can't easily take down one without harming the other. The other issue, is being able to carefully take down the male without spreading any possible pollen around on the other plant, in case it happens to be female.

So with this in mind and after some discussion I've decided to shut down my current tub. The very large plant is a male and no good to me, the small plant has not shown signs of sex that I can tell just yet. Even if it turns out to be female it will not produce much if anything at all. As it is these plants have gone 15 weeks, and I have dank seeds which grow in half that time on the way..haha

My plans are to take everything down, scrub it out and then spend the time waiting for my seeds getting things slightly more organized for the next grow. I want to improve the airflow in the tub, as well as clear a way to make water changes a little easier. Hopefully when I have everything locked down, my seeds will show up and be ready to germinate :)

[samhuinn]

when i went in to take down the system the tiny plant had shown signs of sex. It turned out to be male as well. Ah well, seeds were shipped yesterday!

[Dose Me]

Good to hear than Sam...you didn't really lose anything...only gained experience.

I can't wait to see the new and improved set up.