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Old 12-21-2009, 08:46 AM
Dark Horse Dark Horse is offline
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Lightbulb The baseball card scam

Okay guys, this is really close to becoming a complete guide to making BIG profit with baseball cards, but there is one major flaw with it. So, I'm just going to lay it all out and then at the end I'll point out the flaw. Maybe someone out there can help find the solution and then at that point we can call it an official guide. I apologize in advance for not being able to seperate my paragraphs but for some reason when I make posts from my BlackBerry (as I'm doing right now) the paragraphs just get all scrunched together as soon as I post. So, I'm going to try and use underscores and see if that helps. __________________________________________________ _______
Okay, first things first. You have to understand a little about baseball cards. With high end cards, condition is everything. When you get into high end cards, it takes a real professional to be able to tell the difference between a near mint card and a card that is truly mint. There's also many grades that fall in between and above. For the purposes of this discussion I'm going to limit myself to the cards that fall in the "near mint" to "gem mint" categories, but just know that there are many grades that fall below (from "excellent mint" all the way down to "poor"). __________________________________________________ _______
Because the differences between the high grade cards are so difficult to discern, collectors will have these cards professionally graded. Once it's given a grade, the card is encapsulated in a plastic tamper proof holder that has the card information, the grade of the card, and a serial number. It's an idea that started in the collector coin industry. This accomplishes many things. It takes the subjectivity out, it protects the card, and most importantly it increases buyer confidence. __________________________________________________ _______
The grades go like this. A grade of "7" denotes a card that is "near mint". That card will look perfect to most people, but if you look really close it might have a little wear on one or two corners, maybe the centering will be very slightly off, etc. But for the most part, to the average person it will look as perfect as a card that came right out of the pack. A grade of "8" is called "near mint to mint" and you'll pretty much need a magnifying glass to see the most slightest touch of wear on perhaps one corner. A grade of "9" is a mint card that is absolutely perfect. And finally a "10" denotes a "gem mint" card, meaning it is absolutely unimprovable in every respect. Some grading companies even have grades in between these grades, like "7.5" which would be "near mint plus". Almost an 8, but just not quite. So as you can see, the grading can get pretty mind boggling. You can have an "8" and a "9" sitting right in front of you side by side, and you'd be hard pressed to be able to see the difference. But the difference in value and price can be in the thousands of dollars. This is where your potential gain lies. Are you with me so far? __________________________________________________ _______
For this discussion I'm going to use one of my favorite cards, the 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan rookie card. If memory serves me correct, it was card number 177 in that year's set. It's a tough card to get graded because many of them weren't cut correctly at the factory so a lot of grading companies won't grade it because they can't tell if it's been tampered with or not. Many of them were trimmed by their owners back in the day when trimming your cards a bit was no big deal. A graded example in a "7" would sell for about $600 (forgive me if my prices are off, it's been a few years so the prices may be different now, but this should work for my example). Now that same card in an "8" jumps in value from $600 to about $2,000! And finally a mint example in a "9" will fetch anywhere from $4,000 to $6,000! Forget about a "10", it just doesn't exist. You could probably count all the nines on one hand. The non existance of a 10 is mostly due to the crude manufacturing techniques of the day. So as you can see, there's big money to be made. __________________________________________________ _______ One thing that's really important to point out is the reputation of the grading company, because not all are equal. There are tons of grading companies out there, but to serious collectors there are only two companies that can be taken seriously and one other company that's okay. All the other company's are shit and should be ignored. They might give your card a "10" and it won't mean didley. __________________________________________________ _______
The most reputable company is also the strictest as far as grading, but their graded cards will get the highest prices. That company is called Beckett. Unfortunately, the cases they encapsulate their cards with are the finest in the industry and I would say you can forget about cracking one of those. Forget Beckett. __________________________________________________ _______
The second best grading company is called PSA. They have a great reputation in the industry. Their graded cards don't get quite as much as the Beckett cards, but they're right up there. Some of the finest collections in the world have been graded by them. If you walked into a card shop with PSA graded cards, you would find that they are very liquid and easy to sell. But the most important thing here is that the tamper proof case they use is much less substantial. This will be the focus of this discussion.
__________________________________________________ _______
Just for honorable mention, there is a third company called SGC. They've graded some of the industries most important cards, but their cards command slightly less money than PSA and the cases they use are harder to crack than PSA. I'm only mentioning them because a grade from any other company is absolutely worthless in my opinion. You have to remember that a grade is only an opinion, so the reputation of the company giving the grade is everything. Beckett is golden and PSA is a close second.
__________________________________________________ _______ So, now we're ready to get down to the nitty gritty. Any baseball card shop will have some PSA graded cards. They might even have a full color catalog of an upcoming vintage card auction. The card auction catalog is not as important, but if they have those it can help. Buy a few cards graded by PSA that are cheap. Last I checked, PSA grades cards for like $15 each. But sometimes when cards get a lousy grade, card shops will sell them for just a few dollars. Buy the cheapest ones you can, try not to spend more than $10 per card. You'll need at least half a dozen for this. __________________________________________________ ______
The next thing you'll need is a high end card. SWIM had a 1968 Topps #177 Nolan Ryan that he paid $500 for. It's very important that the card meet two criteria.
__________________________________________________ _______ Number one, it needs to be a card that has a high book value in graded form. Baseball card shops have price guides (the best one being the Beckett price guide). Make sure you have a guide that shows pricing on graded cards. Get familiar with them. I'd suggest looking at Mickey Mantle, Nolan Ryan, Ted Williams, etc. It needs to be within you're reach at the "near mint" level and it has to jump up in price enough in the next higher grade to make your effort worthwhile. It all depends on demand and rarity. Anything with Mickey Mantle's image on it is gold. __________________________________________________ _________ Number two, the card you obtain has to look perfect to the naked eye. Make sure it's well centered and has four sharp corners. It's helpful to look at different graded cards that have been graded by PSA. See if you can begin to spot the differences. You're goal is going to be to make a card pass as a card in a higher grade, so it has to be believable. If a collector is spending hundreds, even thousands of dollars he's probably going to be pretty savy. Do your homework, learn as much as you can. I concentrated on vintage baseball, but I suppose there are other niches that can be profitable. __________________________________________________ ______

In SWIM's case, not one of the grading companies would grade his card that he paid $500 for. It was sent back every time as "trimmed", even though it measured correctly and looked beautiful. I've even seen some Nolan Ryan rookies graded as a "6" that looked pretty darn good that could be had in the $300 range.
__________________________________________________ _______
What you'll do is put some milk in a pot and put it on the stove over a low heat. SWIM has tried other liquids and for some reason milk worked the best. I think it has something to do with the boiling point, not sure. Place one of the cheap, graded PSA cards in the milk before it gets hot. Bring the temperature up SLOWLY. What's going to happen is the air inside the capsule is going to expand. The seal around the outside will get hot at the same time. At some point you're going to hear a "crack" sound. Hopefully, if you're lucky, you'll be able to pull both sides of that case cleanly open without damaging the case. This is the toughest part of this whole operation by far. That's why I suggested buying at least half a dozen of them. You're not going to get it on your first try. There's going to be some trial and error here. __________________________________________________ _______
You'll notice on the backside of the case there's a hologram. Don't worry about it, it's not going to be hurt by this process. Inside the case is a little slip of paper that says "PSA" at the top, the name of the player, the card number, the grade the card received, and a unique serial number. It's also going to have a barcode on it. The barcode is just the serial number in barcode form. __________________________________________________ _______
Using your best photoshop skills, you're going to replicate that little slip of paper. It's extremely simple. The hologram I spoke of earlier is on the plastic case itself. The little slip inside is white with a thin red border around the outside. In SWIM's case, he put "NOLAN RYAN", "TOPPS #177". Remember the auction catalog? SWIM spotted a PSA graded Nolan Ryan rookie that was graded PSA 8. Perfect! He wanted to stay away from a 9 for two reasons. One, they are very rare which can only lead to trouble and two, his example could never pass for a 9. If you're not lucky enough to find a nice color photo of your card in a catalog you can easily find something on the internet I'm sure. It depends on your card. __________________________________________________ _________________________
Once you find your card, you're going to copy the serial number onto the little slip you're in the process of photoshopping. You're also going to scan the barcode and incorporate that into your slip. You have to reproduce the barcode just in case someone scans it. That way, the serial number will come right up and it will seem legit. Because cards typically get tucked away and don't circulate much, you've got very little risk. Essentially what you're doing is your card is going to "become" the card you found in the auction catalog or online. __________________________________________________ ______
So now at this point you have a nice vintage baseball card of a superstar, a PSA case that has been cracked open perfectly, and a perfect replica of the simple PSA label that goes inside the case. Place the label and the card in the case. SWIM used a VERY TINY amount of epoxy around the inside edge of the case and put the two halves together. I can't stress enough the importance of using as little as possible, it doesn't take a lot to hold it together. The case is clear and designed to be tamper proof and in most cases the edge will have a "foggy" look to it. SWIM's case had that "foggy" look around the edge but since he was so careful, it was nice and even all the way around. This takes practice, but it's possible to make it look really good. SWIM was able to sell his Nolan Ryan for $1,500 at a card show. SWIM made about a $700 profit once everything was said and done.
__________________________________________________ _______

Okay, now to point out the major flaw with this. You might have already guessed it. The only part that's a bitch is getting that case open without busting it. SWIM probably fucked up about 30 times before he got one open, and even that one didn't come open perfectly. But, it was good enough to make a product that looked convincing. One thing SWIM thought about but didn't try was using a little Dremel circular saw to evenly slice the case open from the side. Not sure what that would do to the plastic. You can't replicate the case because of the hologram, so you definitely need to buy a junk card and sacrifice it. And, like I said, the cases from the other two reputable companies look like they would be impossible. But, I'm just putting this out there. Maybe someone can take a look, check 'em out. Maybe someone else can expand or contribute to this idea. I will say this, when it came time to sell my personal collection, I was shocked at how easy and fast I was able to get cash in my hand. When you have a graded card graded by one of the three companies I mentioned, collectors literally take them at face value. The price guide is like a bible to some of these guys. If the book says it's so, and it's certified, then it is so. I hope this "almost perfect guide" sparks an idea out there that can perfect it. Happy collecting!

Last edited by Dark Horse; 12-21-2009 at 09:17 AM.
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The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
-SpectraL (12-24-2009), Captain Falcon (12-21-2009), Joe Camel (12-21-2009), Malice (12-21-2009), p6867 (12-23-2009)
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:58 AM
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Malice Malice is offline
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Nice guide. Having to spend money on cheap cards to get the case isn't such a big deal. Your method is good enough.
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:37 AM
Dark Horse Dark Horse is offline
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malice View Post
Nice guide. Having to spend money on cheap cards to get the case isn't such a big deal. Your method is good enough.
Thanks, I appreciate that. One thing I noticed is that some cases seem to be sealed better than others. Buying and sacrificing cheap cards is really no problem at all, but the boiling milk method rarely works. You have to almost try it to see what I mean. It would be awesome if there was some way to heat the perimeter of the case evenly somehow, at a low enough heat to not damage it. I've watched guys at card shows press the cases together with this machine that seals it in seconds. It must use heat. I just stood there looking at the box of empty, unsealed cases thinking "if only......". There has to be a better way.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

You should try using KMNO4+Milk mixture for the boiling part. Very good guide. A green thumbs up to you
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:23 PM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

SFDP

MAYBE it would be possible to put the sealed case inside a metal container, use a hot needle to poke a MINIATURE hole in it, in the "seal" part of it and inject hot air into the containerwith a large gas syringe and quickly hold it down to keep the hot air inside. Then poke another hole on the other side. Of course, you would need a crazy hot needle for this. If you can plug the first hole good before poking the second on, all the air rushing out might create enough a vacuum that atmospheric pressure would cause it collapse.

Alternately, we could poke the hole then suck out the air inside with a gas syringe and then quickly plug the hole and let atmospheric pressure work.

Dunno if those might work.

Lastly, you could take some Dremel circular saw and cut open the case then seal it up with some "caulk", which is window silicon
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Also, this could work with comic books somehow, they're graded the same way.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:05 PM
Dark Horse Dark Horse is offline
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flamix6, I don't know what KMNO4 is or why it would help, but I'm interested. The other idea about poking holes witha needle and also the other one about the window calk just wouldn't work for sure. Trust me, I've fucked up a lot of cards experimenting with this. The cases are designed to reveal tampering. You'd have to try it to see what I mean. The milk method was the only one that actually worked, but only once. I've only seen that one case open cleanly and I think it was due in part to it not being sealed up properly. There are other offshoot companies (like CSA, and quite a few others) that try to mimick them and use cases that look EXACTLY the same. Even their label looks like PSA. I'm sure you could find examples if you do a google search. I'm sure you could even buy the raw cases somewhere (there must be a supplier out there somewhere), but you just wouldn't have the small "Collector's Universe" hologram on the back (that would make it official). Still, this approach might be a better angle I'm thinking. Then you could concentrate on transferring that hologram somehow. From what I've observed, no one pays much attention to that little hologram sticker anyway. I'm pretty sure if you try to remove it, it gets destroyed. But, like everything else, there must be a way. You could make some serious cash because you'd literally have collector's salivating over your "competitively priced" cards. I'm going to see if I can find a supplier of the raw cases with no hologram.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Have some company produce those holigrams. I can walk down the street where i live and see 100s of places that make stuff like that. Check alibaba.com for places that might do it.
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Old 12-21-2009, 01:36 PM
Dark Horse Dark Horse is offline
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IMPORTANT UPDATE. I had mentioned earlier that I thought the cases were sealed using heat somehow. Not so. Seems that all of the grading company's cases are "sonically sealed". You would think since I'm an audio engineer I would understand how sound waves could achieve this, but I'm completely clueless. Seems if I could better understand how it is sealed I could figure out a better way to unseal it. I know that PSA has a way of opening the cases, but I'm fairly sure the case gets ruined in the process. Once I find the perfect method, I will post it here and revolutionize the collecting universe!
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:37 PM
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You got that right, buddy.

Anyway.... I am REALLY interested in this now. If its okay with you, I'll work with you on this. This thread, me and you figuring it out. Even if they somehow manage to find out and prevent our methods, if we find a solution, we'll still have done it.

Alright, you should try this: put one of your crap card-for-cases in a pressure cooker with WATER in it at a high flame. Just be careful it doesn't explode, which I am sure it won't. Just fill about 1/3 of the pressure cooker, put your card in so it is STANDING UP and see if that does it. I dont think they could be sealed by any unique wave properties, maybe just heat by vibration. I think the P-Cooker could split right through the sealed sides of the container.

Also, try a soldering iron
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Old 12-21-2009, 05:14 PM
Stifflers Mom Stifflers Mom is offline
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamix6 View Post
Even if they somehow manage to find out and prevent our methods...
That would be nearly impossible as there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of cases out there already. They might start producing their new cases to different specs, but if you find a way to defeat the existing cases, you've got millions of cases to abuse and the old cases will not become obsolete any time soon, if ever.

Dremel, soldering iron, hot needles, etc are probably not good ideas if you need the original case to appear unaltered.

Ultimately, I think the best bet would be manufacturing your own cases. It is possible to make holograms. If it wasn't possible, they wouldn't exist. The only hard part is getting the images that are used in the holograms.
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:33 AM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Awesome scam, thanks for posting this. This is right up my alley, being obsessed with baseball cards for years when I was a kid. And I only live about an hour away from Cooperstown. I'll be sure to look into this. Thanks again OP.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Manufacturing your own might be the way to go, like some other guys mentioned. You could definitely find a company that could replicate the hologram or you could make your own if you have the right equipment and knowledge. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for a company to manufacture cases that looks just like PSA cases.
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malice View Post
You could definitely find a company that could replicate the hologram ... I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult for a company to manufacture cases that looks just like PSA cases.
...and that's the hard part. Finding a company to do either of these is of course possible. Finding a company to do it that you can trust to keep their mouth shut is the hard part.
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Old 12-22-2009, 10:21 PM
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Well, they may not know that you're replicating another companies hologram or case. I mean, there are so many companies out there, they're not gonna know about every company. If they do, you could forge some documents showing that you work for PSA, but it's very unlikely that anyone will ask.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:19 AM
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Fuckin' talk about a text wall ..
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

soldering iron will make scars and blemish's

BUT GOOD FUCKING GUIDE, seriously, it doesnt help me one iota since im not american but its really well written and its a really good idea.

dremel sounds like a decent idea.

AND A MUCH BETTER IDEA, would be to buy/build fakes, if youve ever played magic the gathering and purchased cards off the internet you wont be able to tell the difference between that and the original's, colour laser printers can be bought new for $100 and the folks over at bombshock know heaps about makeing fake lisences.

honestly, i didnt know cards can reach that much money, so definetely search ebay and get those cases.

good shit, thanks OP
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

How much money do you think it would cost to invest into this scam to first start out? And is it possible if you have no experience with this kind of stuff at all?

Also would a small time card shop look at the cards more closely or would it make this kind of thing easier or would it be better to sell on ebay/craigslist?

thanks!
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by -SpectraL View Post
Just a little pointer on this... this kind of deception works extremely well across border... like from Canada to the US, or visa-versa. The authorities have a hell of a time with the paperwork involved to prosecute when it comes time the scam is eventually found out, and they'll usually take one look at the geographical element of the case and kick it into the ditch with very little interest in pursuing it.
Very good point. In terms of legal pursuit, if international authorities were forced into investigating either this or anything else, they'd likely choose the anything else every time. This crime is very low on the "morally wrong" spectrum, and poses a threat to essentially no one. You're not damaging persons or properties, and you're not wrecking an industry in the same way that most counterfeiting does. In fact, if the owner of these counterfeited cards is none the wiser to it, it's a completely victimless crime (assuming he's not buying to resell any time soon).
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:54 AM
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Wow, I must applaud you at typing all of that out on a mobile phone.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:04 AM
Dark Horse Dark Horse is offline
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Default Re: The baseball card scam

I'm back to working on this. Almost forgot about it.

I found a very interesting thread on the Beckett forum. I would highlight posts 10 and 16:

http://www.beckett.com/forums/thread-376453.html

I'm planning on doing some tests soon. I'll report back on my findings. I'm going to perfect this.
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