4-Fluoroamphetamine Solubility

[litefire]

A friend of mine is trying to measure this accurately, I lent him my scale but my scale keeps fucking up, I think I may need a new one. Anyways, I'm trying to measure this shit correctly, and I know another viable route would be through dissolving a desired amount in a liquid or solvent to deliver an accurate dose.
However, looking online I couldn't find any data on the solubility of this chemical in anything. One site said that it was probably insoluble in water.

So, does anyone have any information on this?

[Gun Lover]

Given that amphetamine is soluble in water, 4-FA is even moreso due to the presence of the highly electonegative Fluorine atom.

DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS

[Dr. Awkward]

First, change the batteries in your scale.

I don't know about the solubility, I always popped or railed it. Amphetamine is soluble in water and 4-FA is structurally similar enough that I'd assume it is also water soluble.

edit: what GL said

[litefire]

Originally Posted by Dr. Awkward

First, change the batteries in your scale.

I don't know about the solubility, I always popped or railed it. Amphetamine is soluble in water and 4-FA is structurally similar enough that I'd assume it is also water soluble.

edit: what GL said

Thanks for the replies, guys. Seems like this compound is relatively inactive at sub ~100mg doses, at least it seems so. He insufflated around 40mg, and felt very little, and ate around 60mg about 5 hours later. He just felt like he could run around a lot, barely(if any at all) any mental effects were noted. I'll tell my friend to go higher, will report back if anyone's interested.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by typedthiswithmytits

stateofhack, do you know the solubility of 4-fa hcl in water?

Originally Posted by stateofhack

The freebase is not soluble in water (around 0.5 mg/L iirc). As for the salt forms (sulphate or hcl) they work down to approx 100-120 mg/ml (i think, it might actually be more, i don't have my notes at hand as i am away )

Originally Posted by BungHole

Yeah, I already figured that. I felt left out and without purpose at first, then realized I really have no fucking idea.

I can't even find any specific numbers for amphetamine and methamphetamine hydrochlorides.

The Merck Index says amphetamine sulfate has a solubility of 1:9, or one gram per milliliter of water. Considering sulfate salts generally have lower water solubility, amphetamine hydrochloride should be atleast somewhat more soluble than the sulfate. Overall, I really don't think the fluoro substitution will effect solubility much.

I bet you could get atleast a gram in 10 ml of water.

[Dr. Awkward]

Originally Posted by BungHole

not everyone reads the bullshit thread

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by Dr. Awkward

not everyone reads the bullshit thread

Which is why I didn't post a link or tell OP to read it. I suppose I should chop up SoH's post and act like it's mine? I prefer direct quotes when I repeat others words. Also, my post is from TRT.

[Fractals]

Originally Posted by litefire

Thanks for the replies, guys. Seems like this compound is relatively inactive at sub ~100mg doses, at least it seems so. He insufflated around 40mg, and felt very little, and ate around 60mg about 5 hours later. He just felt like he could run around a lot, barely(if any at all) any mental effects were noted. I'll tell my friend to go higher, will report back if anyone's interested.

TTMWT said he had some pretty inactive stuff too, but what I have is pretty potent. 10mg is enough to motivate me, and I wouldnt want to take more than 30-40mg at once, both orally. I dont like stimulants much, so average recreational doses might be a lot higher, but its definantly active at 10-20mg. Maybe find another vendor?

[Gun Lover]

Originally Posted by BungHole

Overall, I really don't think the fluoro substitution will effect solubility much

Really? Wouldn't its addition create a H-bond acceptor, which the water would be attracted to with far greater vigor than the unsubbed ring?

[Dr. Awkward]

Originally Posted by BungHole

Which is why I didn't post a link or tell OP to read it. I suppose I should chop up SoH's post and act like it's mine? I prefer direct quotes when I repeat others words. Also, my post is from TRT.

my mistake, I forgot you always post with the angry icon, threw me off.

[litefire]

Originally Posted by Fractals

TTMWT said he had some pretty inactive stuff too, but what I have is pretty potent. 10mg is enough to motivate me, and I wouldnt want to take more than 30-40mg at once, both orally. I dont like stimulants much, so average recreational doses might be a lot higher, but its definantly active at 10-20mg. Maybe find another vendor?

I would have thought muffins had quality stuff, no?

[Fractals]

maybe im just sensitive to stims?

[electric wizard]

I once dissolved some in a water bottle for a long trip. I let it sit at room temperature for over 3 hours before ingesting. Was very active at 150 mg dose. However, Ive noticed that this RC's onset is singificantly delayed when taken with food. It took over two hours to kick in, as opposed to the usual hour. Talk about a wait. Though, whenever it did, it was well worth it

If ever using the water bottle method, after drinking the liquid, refill the water bottle 1/10 of the way and shake it up. Based on taste, Id say that a significant amount sticks to the sides of the glass/bottle after periods of time.

EDIT: The 8 - 10 hour duration thats been reported with this stim is a very valid estimate. It seemed relentless, but in a positive manner. Drinking once it starts to wear off only seems to fuel the fire. The first 1-4 drinks only seem to enhance the speediness, every one after that creates an energetic opiate effect. VERY enjoyable compound.

Even whilst drinking, I had to eat a heavy meal and take some melatonin to get some sleep

[Dr. Awkward]

the stuff I had (from the polacks) was reputed to be quality. The lowest I ever took was 75 mg and I could definitely feel that, but 100-150 was definitely a better recreational dose.

fractals,any chance you mightve mistakenly gotten 4-fmp? I haven't done it but doses are lower so I hear.

[Fractals]

nope, it's 4fa, likely from the same lab as litefire's came from. i havent tried it recreationally yet, though, and i doubt i will

[electric wizard]

Originally Posted by Fractals

nope, it's 4fa, likely from the same lab as litefire's came from. i havent tried it recreationally yet, though, and i doubt i will

You owe it to yourself to try it once, before its completely unavailable.

I'm speaking from a biased perspective though, I love stims. Take my comments with a grain of (amphetamine) salt

However, Ive never encountered an amp so smooth, so clean...
Anyone who has felt the icy grip of the amphetamine comedown can attest to the feeling of immense regret, depression, lethargy, jitters, insomnia...
But with this compound, they're all nonexistent
Not on the comeup, not on the comedown. And no fiending! And a longer duration than most amps!

If I'm being totally honest, I'm pretty pissed off that this will be banned, while much less effective, and much more harmful medications continue to be distributed to fucking kids, of all groups.

More effective, less addictive...Where is the line drawn?
Its drawn between red and black...where profits start coming in

[litefire]

Originally Posted by electric wizard

You owe it to yourself to try it once, before its completely unavailable.

I'm speaking from a biased perspective though, I love stims. Take my comments with a grain of (amphetamine) salt

However, Ive never encountered an amp so smooth, so clean...
Anyone who has felt the icy grip of the amphetamine comedown can attest to the feeling of immense regret, depression, lethargy, jitters, insomnia...
But with this compound, they're all nonexistent
Not on the comeup, not on the comedown. And no fiending! And a longer duration than most amps!

If I'm being totally honest, I'm pretty pissed off that this will be banned, while much less effective, and much more harmful medications continue to be distributed to fucking kids, of all groups.

More effective, less addictive...Where is the line drawn?
Its drawn between red and black...where profits start coming in

So..what dose gets you good? What exactly do you use it for?
My friend said he bought it for studying, but seems to me he's pretty damn disappointed so far.

[Dr. Awkward]

electric wizard nailed it. It fees soooo clean. 125mg oral was the sweet spot for me. With that dose I could sit down and write a paper or go out and party. Probably my favorite stim I plan on stocking up before it's banned.

[electric wizard]

Originally Posted by litefire

So..what dose gets you good? What exactly do you use it for?
My friend said he bought it for studying, but seems to me he's pretty damn disappointed so far.

I used it purely for sociability, but this drug has a huge upper hand on other stims in the area of subtlety. Instead of feeling compelled to do something, I could choose what to do, and do it more effectively/enjoy it more than usual. This includes studying!

Dose: 120 - 180 mg

[Lysergic Rain]

Originally Posted by Dr. Awkward

First, change the batteries in your scale

Also make sure your desk is level. And use the plastic lid so ceiling fans or other drafts don't interfere. I know it doesn't matter with 120mg of 4FA, but it really makes a difference with 8mg of 2C-E or whatever people are doing these days.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by Gun Lover

Really? Wouldn't its addition create a H-bond acceptor, which the water would be attracted to with far greater vigor than the unsubbed ring?

I suppose I could be wrong. The fluorine atom could make a significant contribution to the solubility. But the most important factor is formation of the ammonium ion I would say.

Let's compare the water solubility of benzene with that of fluorobenzene. Benzene has a solubility of 0.188 % in water, or 1.8 gram per liter. Fluorobenzene has a solubility of 1.54 g per liter of water. Also, the ring substituted fluorotoluenes are all considered insoluble in water, toluene is considered slightly water soluble (all of this data is from the Merck Index). I'm not going to go as far as saying the F-C substitution decreases water solubility in 4-FA, although the above experimental data might infer that, because were now dealing with an alkyl side chain with an amine substitution. The properties aren't necessarily consistent.

As for the hydrogen bonding, you might be right. Fluorine atoms definitely form H-bonds with water. But why isn't this this displayed in the above solubility data?

If the fluorine substitution has any effect on solubility, much of it will be mediated through the amine group, I would say. Fluorine will accept electrons from the ring, creating areas of low electron density most likely at the ortho and para positions (I think). Alkyl substitutions on an aryl ring generally donate electrons, creating areas of high electron density ortho and para to the substitution. I'd imagine that as the fluorine atom accepts electrons and the propyl chain donates them, electron density will shift away from the amine. Without the amine substitution, this doesn't seem to have much effect on solubility, as seen above. So my question is: How will this pull of electrons affect the amine and it's protonation? On one hand, it's obviously creating an increase in polarity. On the other hand, might this interfere with protonation of the amine?

I'm not sure. It looks like I have to go read more. For now, let's settle with the little bit of data SoH gave us, because I'm all in a tizzy.

EDIT: I looked up more solubility data. Aniline has a water solubility of one gram per 28.6 ml of water. p-fluoroaniline is "very slightly soluble in water." I'm not sure what "very slightly means," but usually it's considered much less than one gram for every 28.6 ml.

Also, I wonder if there's any intermolecular hydrogen bonding between the fluorine atom and the amine. I'd imagine not, as p-fluorobenzene and aniline have boiling points of 188*C and 184-186*C, respectively.

[litefire]

....you're the shit, bunghole. <3

So I see a lot of People mentioning its going to be banned. I can't find anything on that, sorry can someone show me a link?

[Dr. Awkward]

Originally Posted by litefire

....you're the shit, bunghole. <3

So I see a lot of People mentioning its going to be banned. I can't find anything on that, sorry can someone show me a link?

I don't know for sure, but it seems likely if it follows the trend of other chems that get popular.

[Gun Lover]

Originally Posted by BungHole

But the most important factor is formation of the ammonium ion I would say.

For sure, considering all the solubility data you've provided.

Let's compare the water solubility of benzene with that of fluorobenzene. Benzene has a solubility of 0.188 % in water, or 1.8 gram per liter. Fluorobenzene has a solubility of 1.54 g per liter of water. Also, the ring substituted fluorotoluenes are all considered insoluble in water, toluene is considered slightly water soluble (all of this data is from the Merck Index).

I never would've guessed that. Damn

As for the hydrogen bonding, you might be right. Fluorine atoms definitely form H-bonds with water. But why isn't this this displayed in the above solubility data?

Mindfuck

If the fluorine substitution has any effect on solubility, much of it will be mediated through the amine group, I would say.

Yeah, it has to be. I mean, shit, cyclohexylamine is completely miscible, while cyclohexane is nearly completely insoluble.

Fluorine will accept electrons from the ring, creating areas of low electron density most likely at the ortho and para positions (I think).

I agree. Para slightly more than ortho, IIRC.

Alkyl substitutions on an aryl ring generally donate electrons, creating areas of high electron density ortho and para to the substitution. I'd imagine that as the fluorine atom accepts electrons and the propyl chain donates them, electron density will shift away from the amine. Without the amine substitution, this doesn't seem to have much effect on solubility, as seen above.

Yeah, agreed.

On one hand, it's obviously creating an increase in polarity.

This I'm no longer so sure of. "Net" polarity may actually decrease because it robs some electron density of the amine, like you said. But hell, I'd be lying if I said I knew for sure.

On the other hand, might this interfere with protonation of the amine?

That, IDK.

EDIT: I looked up more solubility data. Aniline has a water solubility of one gram per 28.6 ml of water. p-fluoroaniline is "very slightly soluble in water." I'm not sure what "very slightly means," but usually it's considered much less than one gram for every 28.6 ml.

Good point. I'm curious as to the solubility of o-fluoroaniline. I bet that might be slightly more soluble, no?

Also, I wonder if there's any intermolecular hydrogen bonding between the fluorine atom and the amine. I'd imagine not, as p-fluorobenzene and aniline have boiling points of 188*C and 184-186*C, respectively.

Yeah, I doubt it.

You were right originally, the F does very little, and probably lowers solubility in this case. Thanks for the schoolin'