Doctors in Florida go on record, saying they will not treat obese women

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

The doctors have no idea about the social situations in which people put on weight - it's not simply correlatory that the fattest people (in the west) are also among the poorest.

Remember that study where kids with more self-control end up being more successful?

I am sure it has much more to do with this. They are poor for the same reasons why they are fat.

(not all fat people are poor, of course, and not all poor people are fat)

[ratfrink]

So you're saying that poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough?

[Mr.Happy]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

So you're saying that poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough?

Sounds more like "many poor people are poor partly because they lack the discipline and self-control to do what needs to be done to lift themselves out of poverty".

Similarly, "many fat people are fat partly because they lack the discipline and self-control to do what needs to be done to maintain a healthy weight".

I think that's more applicable to obesity than poverty, though.

[ratfrink]

I think it's more complicated than that. I don't want to go into details, but the long and short of it is: the situation you are born into unfortunately tends to set limits on your life; poor people tend to be overweight due to lack of education about nutrition and cooking.

Definitely much more applicable to obesity.

[Mr.Happy]

Plus your upbringing and environment are directly going to affect your self-control, intrinsic motivation, external goals and suchlike, and by the time you're old enough to start to think for yourself you might have been pumped full of shitty junk food every evening and be totally accustomed to it, with 20lbs more around your waist than most other kids your age.

The tragedy isn't that so many people are unhealthy, unmotivated and overweight; it's that they're raising a generation of kids who have even less chance at overcoming it.

So yeah, I agree with you.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

So you're saying that poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough?

Poor people are often poor because they make sub-optimal decisions. And these often manifest themselves as going for a smaller short-term reward instead of a bigger long-term reward.

This is not about how hard you work; many poor people that I know are very good people and work very hard. But even they themselves would admit that they made big, stategic mistakes in the past which had they not make, chances are they would've had better opportunities along the way and would've been much better off now.

What is "working hard"? It doesn't mean anything. As an extreme example, I could be working hard digging a hole in my backyard, does that mean I can expect to receive goods and services from my fellow man in return?
Or a more realistic example. Let's say I agree to mow my neighbour's lawn, which he benefits from. Or - I create an online service that millions of people use and benefit from. In which case do I deserve a greater share of goods and services that my fellow man produced?

[youtube]OUL152yGVGI[/youtube]

That's the way I view money.

Now - the goal is to get into a position, where you get an opportunity to provide as great a service to as many other people as possible. Whether you work hard or not is irrelevant. This excuse doesn't even work in primary school - "I failed the test, but I spent so much time studying, I swear!" - why should it work elsewhere?

But I digress.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by Mr.Happy

Plus your upbringing and environment are directly going to affect your self-control, intrinsic motivation, external goals and suchlike, and by the time you're old enough to start to think for yourself you might have been pumped full of shitty junk food every evening and be totally accustomed to it, with 20lbs more around your waist than most other kids your age.

The tragedy isn't that so many people are unhealthy, unmotivated and overweight; it's that they're raising a generation of kids who have even less chance at overcoming it.

So yeah, I agree with you.

I disagree with such a deterministic outlook. I find it very dangerous that such views seem to be becoming more and more popular, because they are self-fulfilling.

I think many people confuse the probabilistic models used in social sciences with real flesh and blood people. While there are trends, they are no excuse for an individual; I prefer to look at the exceptions to these trends which are plentiful, and ask myself - if they can, why can't I or anybody else?

Is that not what makes us human? The ability to make decisions and take responsibility for ourselves and our future?

[Malice]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

poor people tend to be overweight due to lack of education about nutrition and cooking.

Shit man, I know, right? I mean, if you eat too much, you'll get fat. Like, how the fuck do they expect us to know that? They don't teach this shit in schools!

[ratfrink]

It's just coincidence that people with poor parents tend to make bad decisions, and people with rich parents tend to make good decisions

I don't think you can blame people for going for the short-term reward. If I had a choice between paying my rent tomorrow, or buying a degree qualification in six years, I'd go with the rent. Luckily I was born into a situation in which I didn't have to make a choice between them. The idea that getting a minimum wage job is 'short term reward' is pretty ridiculous anyway. But like I said, I don't want to talk about it.

[ratfrink]

Originally Posted by Malice

Shit man, I know, right? I mean, if you eat too much, you'll get fat. Like, how the fuck do they expect us to know that? They don't teach this shit in schools!

They don't teach you how to cook. If you don't know how to cook, you buy ready-meals. If you buy ready-meals, you get fat. Wonder why ready-meals are always targeted towards the poorer people in society?

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

I think it's more complicated than that. I don't want to go into details, but the long and short of it is: the situation you are born into unfortunately tends to set limits on your life; poor people tend to be overweight due to lack of education about nutrition and cooking.

Definitely much more applicable to obesity.

How many things that you know were you taught, and how many did you learn on your own?

Not only public libraries, but internet access is widely accessible today in the West. If you are fat but don't want to be; minimal amount of effort will give you information that you need.

I am sure lack of information is not the real issue here. It is the lack of will to change their lifes. I personally know several people that were fat, but with some self-control changed their diets and lifestyles and now have great bodies, and are much better off as a result of it. If they can, why can't others?

And if we accept that some people are physically, due to their hardware or firmware, incapable of consciously overriding their primal reward circuitry or their habitual ways, that has some far-reaching implications.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

I don't think you can blame people for going for the short-term reward. If I had a choice between paying my rent tomorrow, or buying a degree qualification in six years, I'd go with the rent. Luckily I was born into a situation in which I didn't have to make a choice between them. The idea that getting a minimum wage job is 'short term reward' is pretty ridiculous anyway. But like I said, I don't want to talk about it.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not blaming anybody! I am saying that people have choices.

[ratfrink]

You only talk in absolutes! I never said that people are 'incapable of overriding their habitual ways', I said that when people are brought up in a specific scenario, they tend to act in a certain way. You surely can't deny that your environment has an effect on the way that you act.

Rather than saying 'hey, just work yourself out of poverty/obesity/poor education', I'm saying 'why don't we all try to make their situation less shitty to begin with'.

Are you saying there's a choice between paying for basic necessities and paying for college education? Or a choice between taking a minimum-wage job now or being effectively unemployed for six years and *potentially* getting a better paid job in the future? That's not a choice at all.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

Are you saying there's a choice between paying for basic necessities and paying for college education? Or a choice between taking a minimum-wage job now or being effectively unemployed for six years and *potentially* getting a better paid job in the future? That's not a choice at all.

Why is that many of the "poor" people (working minimum wage jobs, which really is only relatively poor, where I come from it would be considered rich) I know have a bigger TV than I do (I don't even have a TV), buy new clothes every few months, have a smartphone, go to clubs every friday?

Why is it that of my former classmates, those that fucked around, got drunk and partied are the ones getting minimum wage jobs, but those that really wanted to get into college are now in college, on a scholarship or otherwise? We were all from similar backgrounds - most incredibly poor (and I mean poor as in earning a "minimum wage" would be a dream come true).

Honestly, I don't know where you find all these people that made optimal choices at in their lives where it matters but are still dirt poor.

I just hope you don't have such a deterministic outlook on your own life.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

Rather than saying 'hey, just work yourself out of poverty/obesity/poor education', I'm saying 'why don't we all try to make their situation less shitty to begin with'.

I agree with you on this one. I am all for giving people opportunities.

But fat people (unless they have a genuine medical condition) already have those opportunities! That was my point. How do you intend to help them short of using coercion ("sending them to an obesity camp")?

[Malice]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

They don't teach you how to cook. If you don't know how to cook, you buy ready-meals. If you buy ready-meals, you get fat. Wonder why ready-meals are always targeted towards the poorer people in society?

Oh man, you're right! I mean, you heat food until it's safe to eat, but before it burns. Shit man, that's so fucking hard! I mean, have you ever looked at a recipe? That shit is impossible to follow unless you're freaking Einstein or something.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

They don't teach you how to cook. If you don't know how to cook, you buy ready-meals. If you buy ready-meals, you get fat. Wonder why ready-meals are always targeted towards the poorer people in society?

Another curious observation, is that such victim mentality appears to correlate not only with unsuccessful individuals, but also with unsuccessful nations.

Reminds me of that video of Liberia, that shows the locals taking dumps on their local beach. And instead of making toilets for themselves, which is a really simple thing to do, they instead continue shitting on the beach and complain about their local government and the UN not providing them with toilets.
I am convinced that is one of the reasons why their country is a shithole. I am sure if the Japanese, for example (and I mean as a cultural entity), were put in the same environment, they would organize and take action to improve their lot, not waiting for someone to come and sort it out for them.

[nutsack]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

Rather than saying 'hey, just work yourself out of poverty/obesity/poor education', I'm saying 'why don't we all try to make their situation less shitty to begin with'.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

[zuperxtreme]

Reminds me of:

"Americans, let’s face it: We’ve been a spoiled country for a long time.
Do you know what the number one health risk in America is?
Obesity. Obesity! They say we’re in the middle of an obesity epidemic.
An epidemic like it is polio. Like we’ll be telling our grand kids about it one day.
The Great Obesity Epidemic of 2004.
“How’d you get through it grandpa?”
“Oh, it was horrible Johnny, there was cheesecake and pork chops everywhere.”

Nobody knows why were getting fatter. Look at our lifestyles.
I’ll sit at a drive thru.
I’ll sit there, ill sit there behind fifteen other cars instead of getting up to make the eight foot walk to the totally empty counter.
Everything is mega meals super sized want biggie fries with that want jumbo frie wanta go large want a biggie fry You wantto have thirty burgers for a nickel you fat mother fucker. There’s room in the bag. Take it!
Want a 55 gallon drum of Coke with that? It’s only three more cents."

YouTube - Lazyboy - Underwear Goes Inside The Pants

YouTube - Lazyboy - Underwear Goes Inside The Pants
Video: click to display

[Arkham Knight]

[Sir Cornwell]

Have another donut ya fat pig!

[ratfrink]

Originally Posted by SHODAN

Honestly, I don't know where you find all these people that made optimal choices at in their lives where it matters but are still dirt poor.

I just hope you don't have such a deterministic outlook on your own life.

Relative poverty isn't an issue. There's still absolute poverty in the West - people do still die of malnutrition, exposure, and lack of access to medical care.

I know making good choices leads to wealth - I've never disputed that. But people don't always have choices available. Call it deterministic if you want, but it's simply a fact.

I'm not saying that poor people can't improve their situation, nor am I saying that the children of rich people are automatically successful; all I've ever said is that it's a hell of a lot easier to take advantage of opportunities if you have guaranteed financial support. Yeah, some people are just plain lazy, but I don't think those people occur more often in poor societies than in rich ones.

I think it's great that we both got scholarships for college, but you've gotta understand that we only got them because we're exceptional (I worked my arse off at night school whilst living in a bedsit so that I could go back to uni). Most people aren't exceptional, but that doesn't mean they deserve absolute poverty.

p.s. If you're interested in why nations like Liberia are failing, then Guns Germs and Steel is a good, if somewhat euro-centric, book.

Originally Posted by Malice

Oh man, you're right! I mean, you heat food until it's safe to eat, but before it burns. Shit man, that's so fucking hard! I mean, have you ever looked at a recipe? That shit is impossible to follow unless you're freaking Einstein or something.

It sounds easy until you realise that some people don't have a)access to a recipe b)an oven. You're denying that teaching cooking and nutrition in schools would reduce malnutrition/obesity?

[i poop in your cereal]

I think this way of thinking is both extremely dangerous for society, and extremely morally wrong.

Obese people should just eat less, it's their own fault.
Smokers should just stop smoking, it's their own fault.
People who drive too fast should just stop, it's their own fault.
People who do extreme sports should just stop, it's their own fault.
People who get AIDS should just have exercised better self control, it's their own fault.
...
etc

People live the way they choose to live. They expose themselves to danger in the pursuit of pleasure and happiness. Weighing risk vs reward should be a personal decision. How can you say that an obese person is more at fault of her illness, than a guy with a sixpack who broke his spine while free-climbing?

Fuck this fascist bullshit. People should be able to live their own way, find their own pleasures and values and not be discriminated like this.

[Ed Lister]

Originally Posted by i poop in your cereal

I think this way of thinking is both extremely dangerous for society, and extremely morally wrong.

Obese people should just eat less, it's their own fault.
Smokers should just stop smoking, it's their own fault.
People who drive too fast should just stop, it's their own fault.
People who do extreme sports should just stop, it's their own fault.
People who get AIDS should just have exercised better self control, it's their own fault.
...
etc

People live the way they choose to live. They expose themselves to danger in the pursuit of pleasure and happiness. Weighing risk vs reward should be a personal decision. How can you say that an obese person is more at fault of her illness, than a guy with a sixpack who broke his spine while free-climbing?

Fuck this fascist bullshit. People should be able to live their own way, find their own pleasures and values and not be discriminated like this.

It's Libertarism in action and it's great. The exact opposite of Facism really. These fat fucks are hurting others with their decisions. The badass with the climbing fetish is only hurting himself. I prescribe to the notion that you can do what you wish as long as you aren't hurting others.

The morbidly obese are placing undue strain and pressure on many of our (your) systems and becoming a nuisance to others in the process. They are placing the doctors at the risk of liability, consistantly and knowingly squandering taxpayer funds and ruining the human asesthetic and race as a whole.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by i poop in your cereal

I think this way of thinking is both extremely dangerous for society, and extremely morally wrong.

Obese people should just eat less, it's their own fault.
Smokers should just stop smoking, it's their own fault.
People who drive too fast should just stop, it's their own fault.
People who do extreme sports should just stop, it's their own fault.
People who get AIDS should just have exercised better self control, it's their own fault.
...
etc

People live the way they choose to live. They expose themselves to danger in the pursuit of pleasure and happiness. Weighing risk vs reward should be a personal decision. How can you say that an obese person is more at fault of her illness, than a guy with a sixpack who broke his spine while free-climbing?

You can't, that's the thing.

How can you say that any unrelated patient, or even citizen, is at fault for the obese person being the way they are? Because that is the implication if you say that someone else has to pay for their liability.

[GreatestGatsby4]

this is good, i think they need to take away all other privileges from fat people too.

[Arkham Knight]

I read a story about some utopian society, where all the people with genetical / physical defects in mind and body were eliminated, and the society become better for the normal humans to live in a perfect world.

Anybody knows this story / stories?

I don't remember, it was long time ago.

The only story name I remember is the film "Gattaga".

[Malice]

Originally Posted by i poop in your cereal

Fuck this fascist bullshit. People should be able to live their own way, find their own pleasures and values and not be discriminated like this.

Do you discriminate against fascists? Do you discriminate against people who take pleasure in raping children? Discrimination is a good thing, it maintains standards.

A person who does not discriminate must not believe in anything.

I think there's a quote like this, does anyone know it? I couldn't find it.

[Agent 008]

Originally Posted by Malice

Do you discriminate against fascists? Do you discriminate against people who take pleasure in raping children? Discrimination is a good thing, it maintains standards.

A person who does not discriminate must not believe in anything.

I think there's a quote like this, does anyone know it? I couldn't find it.

A pretty good discussion on discrimination:

[youtube]YPHgq0qGbe8[/youtube]

[Really Awesome Nickname]

Fact: Fat chicks aint rock n' roll.

[nutsack]

Originally Posted by Really Awesome Nickname

Fact: Fat chicks aint rock n' roll.

They do make the rockin world go round though, at least according to a gay man with HIV. He was more focused on the big asses though.

[i poop in your cereal]

Originally Posted by Malice

Do you discriminate against fascists?

Not if they follow the laws of society. If they try to push for their fascist agenda through legal means, then that's their right.

Originally Posted by Malice

Do you discriminate against people who take pleasure in raping children?

Yes, because they're directly hurting other people. Being fat hurts only one person. I believe in the right to abuse your own body for your own personal pleasure. If you wanna take drugs, that's cool, the same thing goes for binge eating and skydiving, all dangerous activities.

Originally Posted by Malice

Discrimination is a good thing, it maintains standards.

A person who does not discriminate must not believe in anything.

That's a stupid thing to say. I believe in a lot of things, mainly personal freedom, in the sense that anyone should have the right to live their life how they see fit, as long as it does not directly cause harm to anyone else.