Why isn't this tek more common?

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by wikipedia

In 1976 two Polish students from Gdańsk discovered a simple way of getting morphine by extracting opiate alkaloids from poppy straw by using ion exchange resin, acetone, ammonia water and a few other chemicals used in the last step of production. In this method, opium poppy pods and stems are boiled in water for a few hours without adding acid, and then filtered. Strongly acidic ion exchange resin is then added. The resin is filtered and the opiates are recovered with the addition of ammonia water. The resulting liquid is evaporated using a chemical condenser.

I mean, this tek should allow one to easily separate only the alkaloids from even the nastiest plant slurry. In some cases, there are easier ways to go about such things, but lets work an example. In the case of fringe herbal supplements, the active constituents are not often known, but might be thought to be alkaloidal in nature. This process would allow the pulling of just the alkaloids, without any knowledge of their structure or solubilities. While traditional acid/base extractions might seem an easier route, they will fail if the alkaloid also has an acid functional group (phenol or carboxyl). Ion exchange resin just seems like a win-win.

[Gun Lover]

Damn good question!

And those ion exchange resins are neat.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by Gun Lover

Damn good question!

And those ion exchange resins are neat.

Sodium alginate should work as one, too. Any form of alginate is insol in acetone or ethanol; so by adding even a bit of either to an aqueous preparation, precipitation should occur en masse. Just food for though.

[iMagiNation]

could you explain how it works?

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by iMagiNation

could you explain how it works?

B/C I'm lazy:

http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/water/13D.pdf

Basically, by soaking a cation exchange resin in a low affinity substrate like H⁺, entropic driving forces will displace any higher affinity cations from it's binding sites. Then, if one moves the H⁺ saturated resin to a new solution containing a higher affinity cation like R-NH₃⁺, the higher affinity cation will displace the H⁺ at the binding sites, and none of the other crap in solution will stick to the resin. The R-NH₃⁺ loaded resin can then be added to NH₃OH, which raises the pH to the point where most of the R-NH₃⁺ becomes the freebase R-NH₂. Without its charge, it does not bind to the resin, and as such, can be removed by washing with a nonpolar like ether. Or, in the case of morphine, the phenol will become ionized and it will gain a negative charge and be H2O soluble. With the morphine in solution, the cation exchange resin can just be filtered off, and the solution dried in air to yield ammonium morphinate.

[CaptainCheeseTits]

An addition funnel is all you need for an ion exchange column.

[iMagiNation]

I wish they had a clandestine chemistry section on khan academy.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by iMagiNation

I wish they had a clandestine chemistry section on khan academy.

http://www.khanacademy.org/#chemistry
They're the same concepts!

[iMagiNation]

lol I know. I've been using it to understand this shit. I just thought it would be funny if things were explained in the context and for the use of making drugs.

[kervin]

Originally Posted by iMagiNation

lol I know. I've been using it to understand this shit.

1. Chang, General Chemistry

2. Solomons, Organic chemistry

Read them in that order, every page and do the problems don't shortcut it, and in a few short months you will know the chemistry.

[iMagiNation]

Originally Posted by kervin

1. Chang, General Chemistry

2. Solomons, Organic chemistry

Read them in that order, every page and do the problems don't shortcut it, and in a few short months you will know the chemistry.

I've got at least 4 different chemistry textbooks in paper form and well over three dozen different chemistry books in e-format. The problem, which really isn't much of a problem so much as a novel state of being, is that I'm generally interested in everything at once and so I bounce from subject to subject trying to use understandings from all areas to come up with a coherent perspective. With small binges of particular interest inbetween. And those ten minute youtube videos that Khan puts out well, they're really well suited to someone that's learned more from using the internet than most everything taught in school or college.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by kervin

1. Chang, General Chemistry

2. Solomons, Organic chemistry

Read them in that order, every page and do the problems don't shortcut it, and in a few short months you will know the chemistry.

I've got a copy of Solomon's book kicking around somewhere. Never bothered to even open it.

[King Owl]

I've been looking into sodium alginate just for use in the kitchen, but I might have to dip my wick in this, if I get some spare time over the next few weeks...

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by King Owl

I've been looking into sodium alginate just for use in the kitchen, but I might have to dip my wick in this, if I get some spare time over the next few weeks...

It's worth mentioning that there aren't any alginate salts that will dissolve in organic solvents, so alginate is easy to separate from a solution.

[BungHole]

Don't alginates gel up and expand? That might make it difficult to deal with.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by BungHole

Don't alginates gel up and expand? That might make it difficult to deal with.

Yea. I'm not saying they're ideal, just that they could work. The trick is that alginate precipitates will stick in coffee filters and shrink as they drain, eventually releasing most of their liquid contents. For high efficiency, washing them several times would be advisable.

[BungHole]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Yea. I'm not saying they're ideal, just that they could work. The trick is that alginate precipitates will stick in coffee filters and shrink as they drain, eventually releasing most of their liquid contents. For high efficiency, washing them several times would be advisable.

That's not typically what happens with gels. You can put them in a filter and squeeze them, apply vacuum, or use any other mechanical means of removing them. The water doesn't come out. Sometimes you can pull water out with something hygroscopic, like salt, certain solvents, etc. You can also remove water by vaporizing it.

I don't know how much alginate it would require, but I think it's safe to assume this will not scale up nicely.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by BungHole

That's not typically what happens with gels. You can put them in a filter and squeeze them, apply vacuum, or use any other mechanical means of removing them. The water doesn't come out. Sometimes you can pull water out with something hygroscopic, like salt, certain solvents, etc. You can also remove water by vaporizing it.

I don't know how much alginate it would require, but I think it's safe to assume this will not scale up nicely.

I did some work with alginate a while back, and IIRC, they juiced out nicely (in the absence of 2+ or 3+ ions). My memory isn't 100%, but I thought this was the case. Also I'm not saying anyone has to use alginate. There are loads of cation exchange resins out there. Heck, zeolites for fish tanks might even work.

[Aperson444]

Is freebase alkaloid added to the H+ charged resin? Or does the protonated alkaloid replace the H+ in the resin? In essence, the resin acts like a sponge for ionized particles (cations in this case). When these cations are reduced to their freebase form (via NH4OH), they lose affinity for the resin and wash off easily. Does that sound accurate? Is the alkaloid retrieved as a freebase? In the case of morphine, what exactly happens with the deprotonation? Why is ammonium morphinate formed instead of morphine freebase?

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by Aperson444

Is freebase alkaloid added to the H+ charged resin? Or does the protonated alkaloid replace the H+ in the resin?

Both can occur depending on pH. Though most aqueous alkaloid solns are <pH9, so morphine will be almost completely ionized, meaning the second mechanism will dominate.

Originally Posted by Aperson444

In essence, the resin acts like a sponge for ionized particles (cations in this case). When these cations are reduced to their freebase form (via NH4OH), they lose affinity for the resin and wash off easily. Does that sound accurate?

Yup. Or (if ammonia doesn't get the pH high enough) simply flushing the solution with fuckloads of ammonium ions will displace the trace alkaloids previously bound to the resin.

Originally Posted by Aperson444

Is the alkaloid retrieved as a freebase?

For most alkaloids, this will be the case. The exceptions are alkaloids with really high pKa's (think mescaline) or those with acid groups attached (morphine).

Originally Posted by Aperson444

In the case of morphine, what exactly happens with the deprotonation? Why is ammonium morphinate formed instead of morphine freebase?

Ammonia is sufficiently basic to frebase the amine on morphine, but is also basic enough to deprotonate the phenol, giving the morphine molecules a negative charge. These negative charges associate with the positive charges on the ammonium ions and form ammonium morphinate. Though ammonium morphinate will probably still be soluble in water and most solvents, meaning to precipitate it as a solid would require some other tek.