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  #1  
Old 02-28-2012, 07:49 PM
Hydroponichronic Hydroponichronic is offline
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Default Why isn't this tek more common?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
In 1976 two Polish students from Gdańsk discovered a simple way of getting morphine by extracting opiate alkaloids from poppy straw by using ion exchange resin, acetone, ammonia water and a few other chemicals used in the last step of production. In this method, opium poppy pods and stems are boiled in water for a few hours without adding acid, and then filtered. Strongly acidic ion exchange resin is then added. The resin is filtered and the opiates are recovered with the addition of ammonia water. The resulting liquid is evaporated using a chemical condenser.
I mean, this tek should allow one to easily separate only the alkaloids from even the nastiest plant slurry. In some cases, there are easier ways to go about such things, but lets work an example. In the case of fringe herbal supplements, the active constituents are not often known, but might be thought to be alkaloidal in nature. This process would allow the pulling of just the alkaloids, without any knowledge of their structure or solubilities. While traditional acid/base extractions might seem an easier route, they will fail if the alkaloid also has an acid functional group (phenol or carboxyl). Ion exchange resin just seems like a win-win.
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  #2  
Old 02-29-2012, 08:52 PM
Gun Lover Gun Lover is offline
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Damn good question!

And those ion exchange resins are neat.
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  #3  
Old 03-01-2012, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

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Originally Posted by Gun Lover View Post
Damn good question!

And those ion exchange resins are neat.
Sodium alginate should work as one, too. Any form of alginate is insol in acetone or ethanol; so by adding even a bit of either to an aqueous preparation, precipitation should occur en masse. Just food for though.
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  #4  
Old 03-05-2012, 03:41 AM
iMagiNation iMagiNation is offline
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

could you explain how it works?
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  #5  
Old 03-05-2012, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iMagiNation View Post
could you explain how it works?
B/C I'm lazy:

http://nzic.org.nz/ChemProcesses/water/13D.pdf

Basically, by soaking a cation exchange resin in a low affinity substrate like H+, entropic driving forces will displace any higher affinity cations from it's binding sites. Then, if one moves the H+ saturated resin to a new solution containing a higher affinity cation like R-NH3+, the higher affinity cation will displace the H+ at the binding sites, and none of the other crap in solution will stick to the resin. The R-NH3+ loaded resin can then be added to NH3OH, which raises the pH to the point where most of the R-NH3+ becomes the freebase R-NH2. Without its charge, it does not bind to the resin, and as such, can be removed by washing with a nonpolar like ether. Or, in the case of morphine, the phenol will become ionized and it will gain a negative charge and be H2O soluble. With the morphine in solution, the cation exchange resin can just be filtered off, and the solution dried in air to yield ammonium morphinate.
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  #6  
Old 03-08-2012, 05:00 AM
CaptainCheeseTits CaptainCheeseTits is offline
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

An addition funnel is all you need for an ion exchange column.
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  #7  
Old 03-08-2012, 08:49 AM
iMagiNation iMagiNation is offline
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

I wish they had a clandestine chemistry section on khan academy.
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:46 AM
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Heart Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

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Originally Posted by iMagiNation View Post
I wish they had a clandestine chemistry section on khan academy.
http://www.khanacademy.org/#chemistry
They're the same concepts!
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

lol I know. I've been using it to understand this shit. I just thought it would be funny if things were explained in the context and for the use of making drugs.
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  #10  
Old 03-09-2012, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iMagiNation View Post
lol I know. I've been using it to understand this shit.
1. Chang, General Chemistry

2. Solomons, Organic chemistry

Read them in that order, every page and do the problems don't shortcut it, and in a few short months you will know the chemistry.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:05 PM
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Thumbs Up Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kervin View Post
1. Chang, General Chemistry

2. Solomons, Organic chemistry

Read them in that order, every page and do the problems don't shortcut it, and in a few short months you will know the chemistry.
I've got at least 4 different chemistry textbooks in paper form and well over three dozen different chemistry books in e-format. The problem, which really isn't much of a problem so much as a novel state of being, is that I'm generally interested in everything at once and so I bounce from subject to subject trying to use understandings from all areas to come up with a coherent perspective. With small binges of particular interest inbetween. And those ten minute youtube videos that Khan puts out well, they're really well suited to someone that's learned more from using the internet than most everything taught in school or college.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:44 PM
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Heart Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kervin View Post
1. Chang, General Chemistry

2. Solomons, Organic chemistry

Read them in that order, every page and do the problems don't shortcut it, and in a few short months you will know the chemistry.
I've got a copy of Solomon's book kicking around somewhere. Never bothered to even open it.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

I've been looking into sodium alginate just for use in the kitchen, but I might have to dip my wick in this, if I get some spare time over the next few weeks...
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  #14  
Old 03-18-2012, 04:37 PM
Hydroponichronic Hydroponichronic is offline
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Owl View Post
I've been looking into sodium alginate just for use in the kitchen, but I might have to dip my wick in this, if I get some spare time over the next few weeks...
It's worth mentioning that there aren't any alginate salts that will dissolve in organic solvents, so alginate is easy to separate from a solution.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:47 PM
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Heart Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Don't alginates gel up and expand? That might make it difficult to deal with.
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  #16  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:39 AM
Hydroponichronic Hydroponichronic is offline
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

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Originally Posted by BungHole View Post
Don't alginates gel up and expand? That might make it difficult to deal with.
Yea. I'm not saying they're ideal, just that they could work. The trick is that alginate precipitates will stick in coffee filters and shrink as they drain, eventually releasing most of their liquid contents. For high efficiency, washing them several times would be advisable.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:38 PM
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Heart Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic View Post
Yea. I'm not saying they're ideal, just that they could work. The trick is that alginate precipitates will stick in coffee filters and shrink as they drain, eventually releasing most of their liquid contents. For high efficiency, washing them several times would be advisable.
That's not typically what happens with gels. You can put them in a filter and squeeze them, apply vacuum, or use any other mechanical means of removing them. The water doesn't come out. Sometimes you can pull water out with something hygroscopic, like salt, certain solvents, etc. You can also remove water by vaporizing it.

I don't know how much alginate it would require, but I think it's safe to assume this will not scale up nicely.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Hydroponichronic Hydroponichronic is offline
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

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Originally Posted by BungHole View Post
That's not typically what happens with gels. You can put them in a filter and squeeze them, apply vacuum, or use any other mechanical means of removing them. The water doesn't come out. Sometimes you can pull water out with something hygroscopic, like salt, certain solvents, etc. You can also remove water by vaporizing it.

I don't know how much alginate it would require, but I think it's safe to assume this will not scale up nicely.
I did some work with alginate a while back, and IIRC, they juiced out nicely (in the absence of 2+ or 3+ ions). My memory isn't 100%, but I thought this was the case. Also I'm not saying anyone has to use alginate. There are loads of cation exchange resins out there. Heck, zeolites for fish tanks might even work.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

Is freebase alkaloid added to the H+ charged resin? Or does the protonated alkaloid replace the H+ in the resin? In essence, the resin acts like a sponge for ionized particles (cations in this case). When these cations are reduced to their freebase form (via NH4OH), they lose affinity for the resin and wash off easily. Does that sound accurate? Is the alkaloid retrieved as a freebase? In the case of morphine, what exactly happens with the deprotonation? Why is ammonium morphinate formed instead of morphine freebase?
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:55 AM
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Default Re: Why isn't this tek more common?

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Originally Posted by Aperson444 View Post
Is freebase alkaloid added to the H+ charged resin? Or does the protonated alkaloid replace the H+ in the resin?
Both can occur depending on pH. Though most aqueous alkaloid solns are <pH9, so morphine will be almost completely ionized, meaning the second mechanism will dominate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperson444 View Post
In essence, the resin acts like a sponge for ionized particles (cations in this case). When these cations are reduced to their freebase form (via NH4OH), they lose affinity for the resin and wash off easily. Does that sound accurate?
Yup. Or (if ammonia doesn't get the pH high enough) simply flushing the solution with fuckloads of ammonium ions will displace the trace alkaloids previously bound to the resin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperson444 View Post
Is the alkaloid retrieved as a freebase?
For most alkaloids, this will be the case. The exceptions are alkaloids with really high pKa's (think mescaline) or those with acid groups attached (morphine).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aperson444 View Post
In the case of morphine, what exactly happens with the deprotonation? Why is ammonium morphinate formed instead of morphine freebase?
Ammonia is sufficiently basic to frebase the amine on morphine, but is also basic enough to deprotonate the phenol, giving the morphine molecules a negative charge. These negative charges associate with the positive charges on the ammonium ions and form ammonium morphinate. Though ammonium morphinate will probably still be soluble in water and most solvents, meaning to precipitate it as a solid would require some other tek.
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