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  #41  
Old 03-17-2012, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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Originally Posted by Malice View Post
Lanny, you do not understand economics, I really doubt you've ever read in depth about this topic.
No, you don't understand that economics is not precisely the same thing chicago school theories of economics. If you're going to redefine economics, the science of resource distribution, use and consumption, as a narrow set of theories that have never been vindicated in real life situations, and have historically created seriously fucked up social, political and economic situations, then there is no point in even trying to debate.

You're arguing with us, and trying to slyly distort the terms of the dispute. You don't understand economics Malice, you're just an acolyte of friedman.
  #42  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

There are more than two schools of economics, dumbass.

Besides:

#1) You're a communist.

#2) You're the kind of person that reads a Wikipedia article, blindly accepts everything as long as it's in line with your beliefs, and thinks that makes you an expert.
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  #43  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

At which point did I say there were just two schools of economic theory?

And though I'm neither a communist, nor a frequent reader of wikipedia articles, there is nothing wrong with either. Furthermore, it wouldn't in any way invalidate my points.

So, in response to the points I put to you, what did you reply with you? Firstly you said something ridiculously obvious, and pretended I'd said the contrary when I said nothing of the sort. Then you sweeping and incorrect statements about who I am, without justifying in any way how such statements relate to this debate.

Why are you even bothering? You seem incapable of adhering to basic principles of debate, which is why everything you say is about as valuable as rotting apple core.


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Originally Posted by Malice View Post
#2) You're the kind of person that reads a Wikipedia article, blindly accepts everything as long as it's in line with your beliefs, and thinks that makes you an expert.
And I just want to pick up upon this in particular.

So I suppose that 'kind of person' would be in opposition to your kind of person; somebody who doesn't know arse from elbow, but watches some laissez-faire fist pumping videos on youtube and suddenly considers himself an expert on 'economics'. Of course, that's not entirely fair, you also do google searches for polemic and biased websites to augment your juvenile arguments.

But good god malice, never use wikipedia.

Last edited by Communicate; 03-17-2012 at 12:35 PM.
  #44  
Old 03-17-2012, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

Anarcho-communist? What are you then?

Do you get your economic views from Das Kapital?

BTW, after Marx released the first volume The Wealth of Nations was released and Marx's book was so poor by comparison that he refused to release the rest of the volumes. They were only released after his death.

Quote:
So I suppose that 'kind of person' would be in opposition to your kind of person; somebody who doesn't know arse from elbow, but watches some laissez-faire fist pumping videos on youtube and suddenly considers himself an expert on 'economics'. Of course, that's not entirely fair, you also do google searches for polemic and biased websites to augment your juvenile arguments.
I read books. Since right libertarianism is so marginalized they usually don't just state their case as if it's fact, like many proponents of mainstream ideas do, but state the arguments of the opposition and refute them, so you can get a well rounded view just by reading these "biased websites". I do read things from other points of view, though.

For example, I just read this: http://www.honestmedicine.com/2008/0...uth-about.html

A legitimate concern about a private health insurance market, but the solutions should be obvious to anyone with an acceptable level of intelligence.
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  #45  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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BTW, after Marx released the first volume The Wealth of Nations was released and Marx's book was so poor by comparison that he refused to release the rest of the volumes. They were only released after his death.
As if we needed any more proof that you're a complete fucking imbecile...

The Wealth of Nations was published before Marx was even born, you absolute retard. Marx knew about the Wealth of Nations, and many of Smith's ideas were expanded upon by Marx in Das Kapital. In fact Das Kapital is considered a much more complete book precisely because Marx was able to expand on ideas that Smith had talked about, in addition to the fact that Marx lived post/during industrialization and therefore had a much better idea of where capitalism was headed than Smith (who lived before the industrialization).

There was nothing "embarrassing" about Das Kapital. The other volumes weren't released because he died and only left unfinished manuscript and notes, which Engels continued.
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Last edited by Rust; 03-17-2012 at 03:43 PM.
  #46  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

Yeah, I was aware that my memory of what I read could very well have been been wrong, and I never verified that in the first place, but I still wanted to post it. I wish I could find the page I read this on.
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Last edited by Malice; 03-17-2012 at 03:54 PM.
  #47  
Old 03-17-2012, 03:57 PM
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Yeah, I was aware that my memory of what I read could very well have been been wrong, and I never verified that in the first place, but I still wanted to post it. I wish I could find the page I read this on.
So basically, either you're reading just awful factually incorrect books/articles, or you're so biased that your recollection is warped into that self-serving nonsense after you read something.

Wonderful.
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  #48  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

I'm with OP on this one.

most people who are liberal/socialists don't understand how an economy works. they want something for nothing.

I don't wanna pay for your guys' billz, just do it yourself. why is that unfair? no really please tell me. and why is it the anti-socialists always have logical reasons for their way of life, and the socialists are always all "RACIST YOU DON'T HAVE A HEART YOU IGNORANT MOTHERFUCKER"

damn well like let's hear an actual debate, you worthless freeloaders
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  #49  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

That's a good point. How old are you Rust? Do you work for a living? What would your ideal career be (having other people work for you in communist utopia doesn't count)? If you're a student, what are you studying and where?

I bet you live off your middle/upper class parents.
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  #50  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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That's a good point. How old are you Rust? Do you work for a living? What would your ideal career be (having other people work for you in communist utopia doesn't count)? If you're a student, what are you studying and where?

I bet you live off your middle/upper class parents.
My private life has nothing to with this thread. You're just desperate to change the topic since you just embarrassed yourself and confirmed for everyone to see both how little you know about the topics you're speaking of, and how little you care about the facts. That said, since this is yet another opportunity to make a fool out of you, I can't resist answering some of the questions

I'm a graduate student, and I work at a research lab. I haven't "lived off my parents" since I graduated high-school. Your shitty, self-serving, stereotype fails.


P.S. You're an autistic libertarian that lives off of welfare. Are you so incredibly dumb that you actually saw this tangent and thought "Yes, this will turn out well for me"?
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Last edited by Rust; 03-17-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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  #51  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

Like I said, I knew what I was saying very well might not be true, but I still wanted to say it because it sounded funny.

What do you do at the research lab? From what I've heard, most research done at universities isn't of much value.

Ha, a graduate student. Nice choice.


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  #52  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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Like I said, I knew what I was saying very well might not be true, but I still wanted to say it because it sounded funny.
Yeah, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that you're a moron who contradicted his entire premise in this thread (that you, unlike the dumb "liberals"/"leftists", think critically, research the topics you're talking about, and don't just take anything you read at face value).... it was just you trying to be funny.

Quote:
What do you do at the research lab? From what I've heard, most research done at universities isn't of much value.

Ha, a graduate student. Nice choice.

The Simpsons - Comments about PhDs and Grad Students. [HQ] - YouTube

It's related to natural sciences and mathematics. I'd rather not be specific because I'm sure people already know where I work/study.

I know you're being facetious but I am quite happy about my choice; thank you. It's amazing; I'd do this for the rest of my life, with this same salary, without any problem.
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Last edited by Rust; 03-17-2012 at 05:20 PM.
  #53  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

Sure, sure.
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  #54  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

If you're done pretending you didn't make a complete fool out of yourself, you might have time to actually respond to the points others have made, like you the original pictures where awful and inaccurate?
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  #55  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

I didn't make a fool of myself. I didn't expect anyone to know I was lying.

The original pictures are not awful and inaccurate. You only perceive things this way because you align yourself with the left.
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  #56  
Old 03-17-2012, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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I didn't make a fool of myself. I didn't expect anyone to know I was lying.


Quote:
The original pictures are not awful and inaccurate. You only perceive things this way because you align yourself with the left.
No, actually, they are demonstrably inaccurate. Others have already given you a list of the inaccuracies, which you've failed to respond to.

If you want, we can approach this another way. Choose the best line/point - the one you think is the most accurate and damaging to "leftists" in that picture - and we can show you how inaccurate it is in more detail.
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  #57  
Old 03-17-2012, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

I have responded to them, that's a load of shit.
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  #58  
Old 03-17-2012, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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I have responded to them, that's a load of shit.
With this gem?

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Originally Posted by Malice View Post
You're either extremely full of shit, ignorant, delusional, or trolling.
http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.p...4&postcount=36

What an amazing response.
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  #59  
Old 03-17-2012, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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Originally Posted by Malice View Post
Lanny, you do not understand economics, I really doubt you've ever read in depth about this topic. No, it is not letting people do whatever the hell they want. You cannot violate life, liberty, or property (fraud is theft by deception, a property rights violation) and you also don't have to blindly trust that people will not commit violations. Do you think people just sit around wondering what the hell to do and everything just collapses if the government doesn't tell them?
There is more to having a successful nation than "life, liberty, and property". And those things are meaningless for a government to protect on their own anyway. People don't have life if they don't have food to eat and a place to live. They don't have liberty if they have to work their entire lives as wage slaves with no opportunity for advancement, and property? What's that? Property is and always has been what we say it is. There is no inherent reason why the money that a CEO earns belongs to him, but a low level employee only deserves some small scrap of the value he or she generates.

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Fair? How do you decide what's fair? Mob rule?
What's fair? That's really quite a large question, probably something we should leave to experts, but I think it's fair (heh) to say that it's not what we have now.

Quote:
No, single payer does not generate revenue, this is a huge myth. People have no idea how markets work, so they have no idea how the health care market has been distorted. People also never read about anything in depth, so they have no real idea of what's wrong with health care.

You've seen this chart before, right?



Well guess what, that's all the majority of people who advocate government run health care look at. They might also hear some BS about how other countries' health care systems are utopian or watch a movie that's incredibly deceptive and full of bad information, like Sicko, but that's it. You cannot reduce a complex issue like this down to the government not paying for everything.
I won't lie, our healthcare spending to life expectancy/infant mortality rate is a pretty major factor in my thinking that single payer health care saves money, mainly because they seem like pretty good gauges. So what is more reliable info then Malice? Can you point to some data that says the opposite? I'd be interested in seeing something that shows that single payer systems are inherently more expensive than our patchwork system in the US today (by today, I mean the last ~20 years, not "obammacare").

Quote:
Expanded infrastructure? Mass transit? You're kidding me, when the hell do they ever generate revenue? This is nothing but central planning, and particularly in the US, it's been a trainwreck. "Stimulating the economy"? What the hell does that even mean? Are you just parroting things you've heard? That kind of "stimulus" is a complete joke, it doesn't work.
How is that a joke? Mass transit systems allows workers a wider range of employment opportunities, as just one example of how they're economically helpful. It simultaneously solves some portion of the unemployment issue and increases labor availability for businesses. There are significant urban and suburban populations who want to work but are unable to find acceptable transport to available jobs.

Expanded mass transit saves us (and by us, I admittedly mean people, not the government) money on transportation, a good public transit system is _far_ cheaper than car ownership. It is also infinitely better for the environment, which I know most libertarians don't really care about, but they should.

Quote:
Rights are abstract concepts, you can argue that anything is a right, but this is just absurd.

So you have a right to set up arbitrary borders, instill an institution that has a monopoly on the initiation of force over all inhabitants within those borders, and have that institution declare that money will be taken from some people and given to another, that if someone dares to produce something it has a claim to it, that some will be forced to provide services for others, all this ultimately being enforced through justice.

This is a right?
How is setting up any governmental system(arbitrary borders, instill an institution that has a monopoly on the initiation of force over all inhabitants within those borders) "right"? Well you tell me, you're not an anarchist are you Malice? I assume you support some form of government.

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Would you even want rule by the majority? Having other people make decisions for everyone? When has that ever worked out well?
Well actually, I'm a proponent of a limited aristocratic system, but that's not really what Occupy is about.

Quote:
If you were in your college and 51 out of 100 people decided that you were going to give away 95% of your income to the poor and would not be allowed to opt out, would you be okay with that? Well guess what, that's the principle you have to live with when you're in a society that condones a complete assault on the individual.
Obviously there needs to be protection of minorities, while simultaneously satisfying the majority. That's kind of like, the thesis of american politics. But I don't really think that imposing a true graduated tax system is that same as stripping 95% of someone's income who is living just above the poverty line.
  #60  
Old 03-17-2012, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
There is more to having a successful nation than "life, liberty, and property". And those things are meaningless for a government to protect on their own anyway. People don't have life if they don't have food to eat and a place to live. They don't have liberty if they have to work their entire lives as wage slaves with no opportunity for advancement, and property? What's that? Property is and always has been what we say it is. There is no inherent reason why the money that a CEO earns belongs to him, but a low level employee only deserves some small scrap of the value he or she generates.
Good god, you've become a communist! It shouldn't be surprising that the Bay Area would corrupt someone as weak willed and with such a poor sense of self as you. I'd be disappointed, were I a more emotional person.


Quote:
What's fair? That's really quite a large question, probably something we should leave to experts, but I think it's fair (heh) to say that it's not what we have now.
And if they choose something you don't like, like our "experts" have been doing for so long, I'm sure you won't be happy. Why not let people choose for themselves? At least the intelligent could voluntarily segregate.


Quote:
I won't lie, our healthcare spending to life expectancy/infant mortality rate is a pretty major factor in my thinking that single payer health care saves money, mainly because they seem like pretty good gauges. So what is more reliable info then Malice? Can you point to some data that says the opposite? I'd be interested in seeing something that shows that single payer systems are inherently more expensive than our patchwork system in the US today (by today, I mean the last ~20 years, not "obammacare").
This has a good collection of myths: http://www.coalitionoftheobvious.com/Singlepayer.pdf

Infant mortality is mainly because of variations in how it's counted. Other countries don't count infants under a certain weight, if they die after some time, have more abortions for high risk infants, and abortions likely take place more among the poor/uneducated/stupid, which are higher risk anyway.

For life expectancy, if, for example, you compare whites to whites is other countries, Japanese Americans to Japanese, surprisingly the age expectancies are the same. There are also other things you have to take into account, like homicide, other crimes that cause damage that reduces lifespan, obesity rates, smoking rates, lifestyle in general etc. Blacks also seem to bring down the average life expectancy, and infant mortality rate.

This is a very complex issue, I don't simplifying things like this. I'd recommend the book Healthy Competition as an overview.


Quote:
How is that a joke? Mass transit systems allows workers a wider range of employment opportunities, as just one example of how they're economically helpful. It simultaneously solves some portion of the unemployment issue and increases labor availability for businesses. There are significant urban and suburban populations who want to work but are unable to find acceptable transport to available jobs.

Expanded mass transit saves us (and by us, I admittedly mean people, not the government) money on transportation, a good public transit system is _far_ cheaper than car ownership. It is also infinitely better for the environment, which I know most libertarians don't really care about, but they should.
Central planning is a joke. The New York subway system was built by private companies and fares never went up in 40 years (not verified, I just recall Peter Schiff saying this). It seems implausible to most people nowadays, and it may be due to the enormous amount of cronyism, the reduction of real savings, and the channeling of investment into less productive sectors. Let the market handle it.

Really, BART and bus services like AC transit have numerous problems. One issue is the power they give to unions, which drive up wages to unsustainable levels, but you can't complain about that, because to be a good little liberal you need to be "pro-worker".

And who says most libertarians don't care about the environment? How about property rights actually being enforced and creating an incentive to end real pollution, instead of just condoning a certain amount. There is free market environmentalism. And to the question of what do we do if a factory in China produces .00001% of something: Well, what do we do now? Go to war with them? The world isn't perfect.

Quote:
How is setting up any governmental system(arbitrary borders, instill an institution that has a monopoly on the initiation of force over all inhabitants within those borders) "right"? Well you tell me, you're not an anarchist are you Malice? I assume you support some form of government.
Either anarchy (voluntaryism) or a dictatorship that does whatever I want.


Quote:
Well actually, I'm a proponent of a limited aristocratic system, but that's not really what Occupy is about.
Lanny, you're really one to criticize my views. Really, you'd probably call them naive, unrealistic, and idealistic, but I'm sure your college chums would laugh if you told them you supported this.

Quote:
Obviously there needs to be protection of minorities, while simultaneously satisfying the majority. That's kind of like, the thesis of american politics. But I don't really think that imposing a true graduated tax system is that same as stripping 95% of someone's income who is living just above the poverty line.
How about people not having the power to decide things for others? You live just above the poverty line? Want to be my sugar recipient?
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  #61  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

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Originally Posted by Rust View Post
So basically, either you're reading just awful factually incorrect books/articles, or you're so biased that your recollection is warped into that self-serving nonsense after you read something.

Wonderful.
But hey, he doesn't use Wikipedia. That's got to count for something, right?

Malice, do you mind reminding me whether or not you're the libertarian chap whose income comes from SSI?
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  #62  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

I'm not a libertarian because I have no problem with aggressing against people, which I'll gladly prove to you if you meet with me IRL.
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  #63  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

Ha, this is amusing: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...rly-because-t/

But to be fair, it doesn't take into account quality of life improvements that universal coverage could have and possibly reduced cost, although the (good) evidence for that may also not be there.

I'm thinking of writing an addendum to Healthy Competition. It's a good book, but it doesn't cover everything I'd like. Of course, if it did, it would be much longer, and people are already disinclined enough to reading. The information against single payer/government run healthcare is all over the place.
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  #64  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:16 PM
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Malice Malice is offline
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

“There’s no dishonor in being forced by a superior power into slavery, but it is an eternal disgrace to voluntarily surrender one’s liberty for a filthy bowl of oatmeal and promise of security by liars. ”—Charley Reese

You leftists make me sick.
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“Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.” - Carl Jung
  #65  
Old 03-18-2012, 07:35 PM
crazzyass crazzyass is offline
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Default Re: Occupy Vs Tea Party Debate Solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malice View Post
I'm not a libertarian because I have no problem with aggressing against people, which I'll gladly prove to you if you meet with me IRL.
Yes! Because violence validates your (lack of) analytical abilities. "Malice mad! Malice smash crazzyass! Hurr durr!"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Malice View Post
“There’s no dishonor in being forced by a superior power into slavery, but it is an eternal disgrace to voluntarily surrender one’s liberty for a filthy bowl of oatmeal and promise of security by liars. ”—Charley Reese

You leftists make me sick.
So...since you're accepting SSI, aren't you in eternal disgrace? Oh yeah, leftists forced you into it and didn't let you work, right?
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