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  #361  
Old 04-14-2012, 09:39 AM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Originally Posted by Obbe View Post
I never used those terms before now, but it seems to match the way I see freewill. But I still do not understand why you would define freewill in such a way that it cannot coexist with a 'deterministic' world? If you don't define freewill as I do, what does the term mean to you? If my desires are the result of greater processes, how are they any less "me" than if they were not the result of greater processes? Especially considering that we can consider ourselves to be individuals while simultaneously being the greater processes.
When I say free will, I mean the same thing the majority of people mean when they say it. It's a sort of nebulous idea, AdMech did a good job of explaining it a while back. As he and I discussed in this thread, I agree with compatibilism in that people still have a "will" they just can't "will what they will". However, I don't call that free will, but copatibilists like you and AdMech do. I think it would be much more reasonable to make some new word for that, since I can only see it as confusing people who accept the traditional model of free will.

I don't know if there's a word to describe compatibilist free will, but I would call it deterministic will or something like that. There isn't much "free" about it seeing as there's only one choice.

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Originally Posted by mudhut_madonna View Post
I don't really get what lanny means by internally inconsistent either, if by stating this I am labeled (defined, named, whatever) I may exercise my will to accept or deny the label. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

position is nothing without something to define it, then two positions form a line, further positions define further dimensions, but there's always the possibility that the one with the pencil, paper and slide rule, will be called away for dinner..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistency

It's an interesting read, and would help you out in this thread. Basically there are two kinds of consistency, internal and external. Internal consistency entails that a thing doesn't contradict itself, while external consistency means that a thing doesn't contradict the way things are in the world.

A good illustration is science fiction/fantasy fiction. These works aim for internal consistency. I.e. they don't say one thing and do another (like the ending of Mass Effect 3 ). So like, take Starwars for example. Obiwan says Yoda trained him in the original trilogy, but in the phantom menace we learn it was QuiGon Jinn. That's internal inconsistency, because the story contradicts itself. Then we have the force where people can push heavy objects around and jump really high and shoot lightning and shit. Obviously that can't happen in real life, so in that sense Starwas is also externally inconsistent. For something to be true, it has to be both internally and externally consistent, so if we can easily prove that the common understanding of free will is internally inconsistent (we can) then we can instantly rule it out as a possibility.
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  #362  
Old 04-14-2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
When I say free will, I mean the same thing the majority of people mean when they say it.
How can you know that? You didn't know I defined it differently. I have always thought of it the way I described it, never heard of it described differently.

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
It's a sort of nebulous idea, AdMech did a good job of explaining it a while back. As he and I discussed in this thread, I agree with compatibilism in that people still have a "will" they just can't "will what they will".
Why not? Didn't you agree that a person is simultaneously the greater processes? So at what point are they not "willing what they will"?

Also, I still don't understand how you define freewill or why you or "most people" as you claim, would define it that way. It doesn't seem to make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
However, I don't call that free will, but copatibilists like you and AdMech do. I think it would be much more reasonable to make some new word for that, since I can only see it as confusing people who accept the traditional model of free will.
Really? You're claiming your definition has been around longer and is used by more people, so we should use a new word? I think you should stop defining the word in a way that doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
I don't know if there's a word to describe compatibilist free will, but I would call it deterministic will or something like that. There isn't much "free" about it seeing as there's only one choice.
Freedom, control, will, these are all matters of perspective.
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  #363  
Old 04-14-2012, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Freedom, control, will,
To me these are more or less the same thing.
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  #364  
Old 04-14-2012, 03:14 PM
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To me these are more or less the same thing.
Do you think you can control anything? Or is that more or less just a matter of perspective or semantics?
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  #365  
Old 04-14-2012, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

But Yoda did finish Obi-wans training, the film just skipped over it! So,from the viewers point of view, there's a assumption of internal inconsistency, when in the filmmakers eyes there's not. And thats where you lose me, for any 'proof' is in the eye of the beholder. Your Lanny is not my Lanny, due to our differing perspectives. For a thing to be correct, even universally, it must by definition conform to pre-determined parameters, and I get to chose whether or not I accept those parameters. Choice is the action not the set-up or follow-through.
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  #366  
Old 04-14-2012, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Do you think you can control anything? Or is that more or less just a matter of perspective or semantics?
I believe they are concepts, or ideas if you will.
Right or wrong is irrelevant. People choose to believe what they will, even if their choices are the result of environmental circumstances.
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  #367  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
......that. There isn't much "free" about it seeing as there's only one choice.....
even when there's only one choice, your stil free to choose or not to choose that choice.

Having choice means you still have the freedom to choose. Unless your definition of 'choice'' is different from ours, which if thats the case,

you need to define what your ''choice'' is.
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  #368  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Also i'd like to note that choice is only possible if there is someone to make it.

Remove man from the equation and you remove choice aswell, which means they are connected.
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  #369  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:44 PM
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Also i'd like to note that choice is only possible if there is someone to make it.

Remove man from the equation and you remove choice aswell, which means they are connected.
What about lions ? Thay always choose to prey on calfs over bulls .....

and how about electrical charges .... which alyasy choose to travel thru the path of least resistance over path with more ....

are their preferences ...... ''choice'' ?????
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  #370  
Old 04-14-2012, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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What about lions ? Thay always choose to prey on calfs over bulls .....

and how about electrical charges .... which alyasy choose to travel thru the path of least resistance over path with more ....

are their preferences ...... ''choice'' ?????
Natural law exists because someone choose to build it.
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  #371  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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What about lions ? Thay always choose to prey on calfs over bulls .....

and how about electrical charges .... which alyasy choose to travel thru the path of least resistance over path with more ....

are their preferences ...... ''choice'' ?????

I was under the impression that we were talking about humans, but okay. Since i'm apparently dealing with people who are unable to get my point allow me to make it clear(rerere).

If you remove all life, you remove choice.

Happy?

Also, electricity doesn't have a choice. It just is, like instinct.
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  #372  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:14 AM
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I was under the impression that we were talking about humans, but okay. Since i'm apparently dealing with people who are unable to get my point allow me to make it clear(rerere).

If you remove all life, you remove choice.

Happy?

Also, electricity doesn't have a choice. It just is, like instinct.
We cannot say for a fact that anything is anything. We can only define it on our own terms.
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  #373  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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We cannot say for a fact that anything is anything. We can only define it on our own terms.
Everything we percieve is on our own terms, but apparently people always seem to look aside from that fact.
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  #374  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Everything we percieve is on our own terms, but apparently people always seem to look aside from that fact.
Their probably just doing it to irritate you, seek sly ways to get your digs in, or change the subject and let it go.
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  #375  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:12 PM
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Their probably just doing it to irritate you, seek sly ways to get your digs in, or change the subject and let it go.
Nah, they just don't know.
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  #376  
Old 04-15-2012, 03:49 PM
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It just is, like instinct.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Obbe View Post
How can you know that? You didn't know I defined it differently. I have always thought of it the way I described it, never heard of it described differently.



Why not? Didn't you agree that a person is simultaneously the greater processes? So at what point are they not "willing what they will"?

Also, I still don't understand how you define freewill or why you or "most people" as you claim, would define it that way. It doesn't seem to make any sense.



Really? You're claiming your definition has been around longer and is used by more people, so we should use a new word? I think you should stop defining the word in a way that doesn't make any sense.



Freedom, control, will, these are all matters of perspective.
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  #378  
Old 04-28-2012, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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If you remove all life, you remove choice.

Happy?
No it doesn't because somehow somewhere in this universe some form of inanimate atoms and molecules still manage to CHOOSE to become life and become alive .....

You just cant explain away why some molecules choose to become life and part of lives like you can with thermodynamics using '' the high flows to the lows ... mang''

there';s just no added benefits for carbon molecules that're part of living organism over those Cs that are not, no evolution theories, no ''basic instinct to survive''

some molecules just become life .... and if that's not due to an active choosing on their part ... then I dont know what choice is then.

The fact that these carbon just become alive with no apparent reason indicates there such thing as free will and thus these molecules ... in their freewills and out of their own choosing ... had chosen to assemble themselves into our DNAs and our bodies.
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  #379  
Old 04-28-2012, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by benny vader View Post
No it doesn't because somehow somewhere in this universe some form of inanimate atoms and molecules still manage to CHOOSE to become life and become alive .....

You just cant explain away why some molecules choose to become life and part of lives like you can with thermodynamics using '' the high flows to the lows ... mang''

there';s just no added benefits for carbon molecules that're part of living organism over those Cs that are not, no evolution theories, no ''basic instinct to survive''

some molecules just become life .... and if that's not due to an active choosing on their part ... then I dont know what choice is then.

The fact that these carbon just become alive with no apparent reason indicates there such thing as free will and thus these molecules ... in their freewills and out of their own choosing ... had chosen to assemble themselves into our DNAs and our bodies.
Nothing outside of life was ever chosen, it just is.
It could be argued that molecules are alive though, in which case what i said is still valid.
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  #380  
Old 04-28-2012, 06:56 PM
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How can you know that? You didn't know I defined it differently. I have always thought of it the way I described it, never heard of it described differently.
Because I've talked to a lot of people about this very thing. I assure you, your idea of free will is not the norm.

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Why not? Didn't you agree that a person is simultaneously the greater processes? So at what point are they not "willing what they will"?

Also, I still don't understand how you define freewill or why you or "most people" as you claim, would define it that way. It doesn't seem to make any sense.
It doesn't make sense. That's my point. Free agency, as it is generally (mis)understood, makes no sense. What you call free will is the compatabilist idea of free will, which is determinism to most people.

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Really? You're claiming your definition has been around longer and is used by more people, so we should use a new word? I think you should stop defining the word in a way that doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, that pretty much is what I mean. October, by it's name, should be the eighth month. Does that mean we should pick up July and August and make them 11th and 12th months of the year respectively? Of course not, it would cause years of difficulty and make this weird ass discontinuity in our calendar system. Likewise if we just start changing the meaning of words because we don't like what the meaning was before it's just going to cause confusion.

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Freedom, control, will, these are all matters of perspective.
Nope, they're not.
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  #381  
Old 04-28-2012, 07:44 PM
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Because I've talked to a lot of people about this very thing. I assure you, your idea of free will is not the norm.



It doesn't make sense. That's my point. Free agency, as it is generally (mis)understood, makes no sense. What you call free will is the compatabilist idea of free will, which is determinism to most people.



Yeah, that pretty much is what I mean. October, by it's name, should be the eighth month. Does that mean we should pick up July and August and make them 11th and 12th months of the year respectively? Of course not, it would cause years of difficulty and make this weird ass discontinuity in our calendar system. Likewise if we just start changing the meaning of words because we don't like what the meaning was before it's just going to cause confusion.



Nope, they're not.
Who is changing the meaning of any words? I was never even aware of your definition of freewill. In fact, I still have no idea how you define it, as you have still not posted how you define it. Freewill makes perfect sense as I define it.

Why do you claim that people do not "will what they will"? You already agreed with me that we are simultaneously individuals as well as the greater processes, so at what point are we not willing what we will?

Freewill is obviously a matter of perspective, considering that you and I have different perspectives on the matter. We define freewill differently. Except that I have no idea how or why you define freewill the way that you do, and it seems ridiculous.

Say, for example, I was to lock you up with some chains. And you wanted to move your arms, but I had the chains around you in a way so that you couldn't move them. You don't agree that the chains would be impeding your freewill?
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Last edited by Obbe; 04-28-2012 at 07:53 PM.
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  #382  
Old 04-28-2012, 07:58 PM
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Who is changing the meaning of any words? I was never even aware of your definition of freewill. In fact, I still have no idea how you define it, as you have still not posted how you define it. Freewill makes perfect sense as I define it.
Free Will: The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate;

Our impulses, our will is a function of deterministic processes. The result of deterministic processes are of course deterministic. Therefore what we will is the only thing we can will, or put another way our will the the necessary result of our environment. Ergo it is not "free" in the sense of libertarianism free will.

Quote:
Freewill is obviously a matter of perspective, considering that you and I have different perspectives on the matter. We define freewill differently. Except that I have no idea how or why you define freewill the way that you do, and it seems ridiculous.
Are you serious? If I define a pencil as a vegetable, that doesn't mean the pencil's status as a member of the class "vegetables" is a matter of perspective. A pencil is obviously not a vegetable, no matter how much I want it to be. Likewise free will is a thing, it either exists or not. Its existence isn't a function of people thinking it exists. Maybe it would _seem_ like free will exists from some perspectives and doesn't form others, but there's only one objective reality.
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Old 04-28-2012, 08:09 PM
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Free Will: The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate;

Our impulses, our will is a function of deterministic processes. The result of deterministic processes are of course deterministic. Therefore what we will is the only thing we can will, or put another way our will the the necessary result of our environment. Ergo it is not "free" in the sense of libertarianism free will.



Are you serious? If I define a pencil as a vegetable, that doesn't mean the pencil's status as a member of the class "vegetables" is a matter of perspective. A pencil is obviously not a vegetable, no matter how much I want it to be. Likewise free will is a thing, it either exists or not. Its existence isn't a function of people thinking it exists. Maybe it would _seem_ like free will exists from some perspectives and doesn't form others, but there's only one objective reality.
Once again, at what point are people not willing what they will?

Again, who is changing the definition of anything? You and I define freewill differently. Are you claiming your definition is somehow more valid? The definition that doesn't make any sense, is more valid?

Freewill isn't a thing. Are you serious? If you believe freewill is a thing, then were is it? Freewill is an idea, the idea that if I want to do something and nothing is preventing me from doing it, then doing whatever it is that I want to do is an exercise of freewill. Or that if I was prevented from doing what I wanted to do, my freewill would be impeded.

Do you not agree that if I locked you up in a cell, I would be impeding your freewill?
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Last edited by Obbe; 04-28-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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  #384  
Old 04-28-2012, 10:11 PM
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Once again, at what point are people not willing what they will?
I don't understand your question. At what point _do_ people will what they will? When does someone sit down and say "I'm going to start wanting thing but now wanting that"?

Quote:
Again, who is changing the definition of anything? You and I define freewill differently. Are you claiming your definition is somehow more valid? The definition that doesn't make any sense, is more valid?
Right, my definition is more valid because it's more widely accepted.

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Freewill isn't a thing. Are you serious? If you believe freewill is a thing, then were is it? Freewill is an idea, the idea that if I want to do something and nothing is preventing me from doing it, then doing whatever it is that I want to do is an exercise of freewill. Or that if I was prevented from doing what I wanted to do, my freewill would be impeded.
will: Noun: The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action

Noun: A word (other than a pronoun) used to identify any of a class of people, places, or things

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Do you not agree that if I locked you up in a cell, I would be impeding your freewill?
No, because that's not what libertarian _or_ compatibilist free will is.
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Old 05-05-2012, 03:57 PM
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I don't understand your question. At what point _do_ people will what they will? When does someone sit down and say "I'm going to start wanting thing but now wanting that"?
Choice is the action of doing something, not the desire to do something. Wanting to do something is not willing what you will, doing something is willing what you want.

You are implying that people are not their wants or desires, but how can this be when we are simultaneously individuals as well as greater processes going on?

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Right, my definition is more valid because it's more widely accepted.
Then you imply that "validity" is a matter of what is accepted by the mainstream. Do you actually believe that, or are you just trying to protect your position by appealing to tradition?

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will: Noun: The faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action

Noun: A word (other than a pronoun) used to identify any of a class of people, places, or things
And? You're saying freewill either exists or it does not, but clearly it exists as an idea and as different ideas to different people.

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No, because that's not what libertarian _or_ compatibilist free will is.
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Those who deny that determinism is relevant are classified as compatibilists, and offer various alternative explanations of what constraints are relevant, such as physical constraints (e.g. chains or imprisonment), social constraints (e.g. threat of punishment or censure), or psychological constraints (e.g. compulsions or phobias).
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Old 05-05-2012, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Shittt. I see this thread again in my list of subscribed threads.

FUCK. RANDOMNESS EXISTS AND WHOEVER AND WHATSOEVER THAT DOESNT THING SO IS A PHAGGOTT AND LOVES THE SENSATION OF LONG, HARD VEINY NIGGER COCK SLITHERING UP THEIR ASS ALL DAY LONG DAY IN AN OUT.

/THE UNCLEFICKING THREAD.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

I found this paper to be a good demonstration of what someone like Lanny could be missing; I think it's a rather unfulfilling paper and that an impetus/force/cause is a more intuitive solution. Basically it outlines the determinist perspective:

http://www.mediafire.com/?gvh543hax88ou23
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  #388  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:53 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Originally Posted by Obbe View Post
Choice is the action of doing something, not the desire to do something. Wanting to do something is not willing what you will, doing something is willing what you want.
Will obviously has to precede action. You can't do something and retroactively say "I will that". Will is like the cognitive impetus for action.

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You are implying that people are not their wants or desires, but how can this be when we are simultaneously individuals as well as greater processes going on?
I've never implied anything the even touches on that.

Quote:
Then you imply that "validity" is a matter of what is accepted by the mainstream. Do you actually believe that, or are you just trying to protect your position by appealing to tradition?
You're the relativist here . I'm stating quite clearly that validity in linguistics
stems from common use. When the vast majority of people in the world think a word means something, then that's what the word means. If you want to convey some meaning to me, use the English words that articulate that meaning, don't just pull some words out of the air, start an argument, and tell me somewhere down the line you redefined some terms because you felt like it.

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And? You're saying freewill either exists or it does not, but clearly it exists as an idea and as different ideas to different people.
So what? The flying spaghetti monster exists as an idea to some people. That mean exactly jack shit about the actual existence of a monster made of spaghetti that is omnipotent and flies through space.
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  #389  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
As noted by Dennett (2), the Epicureans,
in attempting to reconcile the phenomenon of cause and effect
that they saw to be characteristic of the physical world, with the
contrasting apparent freedom of individual behavior, posed the
following problem: “If all movement is always interconnected, the
new arising from the old in a determinate order—if the atoms
never swerve so as to originate some new movement that will snap
the bonds of fate, the everlasting sequence of cause and effect—
what is the source of the free will possessed by living things
throughout the earth?”
I think Obbe's definition is the normal one although one group does fight for its own definition.
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  #390  
Old 05-07-2012, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
Will obviously has to precede action. You can't do something and retroactively say "I will that". Will is like the cognitive impetus for action.......
Introducing : Trained reflex action.

A ping-pong player returned a lightning speed ping-pong ball based on its reflex action, just as he willed ... but he didn't will what he did at the time he hit the ball ....

but in retrospect .... that's what it wanted to do afterall ....

Is this a willful action or not ?
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Randomness doe not exist, it is simply the absence of purpose. Just as holes do not exist, they are the absence of Earth.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:21 AM
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Randomness doe not exist, it is simply the absence of purpose. Just as holes do not exist, they are the absence of Earth.
Then earth and everymater else do not exist, their just simply the absence of voidness and emptiness.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by benny vader View Post
Then earth and everymater else do not exist, their just simply the absence of voidness and emptiness.
Incorrect. The Earth is tangible.

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everymater
What in the blue hell..?
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Old 05-08-2012, 12:43 AM
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Randomness doe not exist, it is simply the absence of purpose. Just as holes do not exist, they are the absence of Earth.
That's absolutely ridiculous. Clearly there is a thing in the world called a hole. Maybe a hole is just a particular arrangement of emptiness, but it's still a thing. There are a lot of good arguments for determinism, but "hurr durr, a hole is the absence of earth" is not one of them.
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Old 05-08-2012, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Alrite people .... THE FACT THAT LANNY HAD IGNORED MY ARGUMENTS, REPEATEDLY

INDICATES THE VERY FACT THAT RANDOMNESS, AND THE FREEWILL THAT IS THE RESULT OF THIS RANDOMNESS IN ACTION .... EXISTS.

Both of them. Because have we been living in a deterministic world, where everything is predetermined, then she would had been replying to my arguments ....

SHE'D *HAVE* TO ... AS DETERMINED BY THE ETIQUETTE AND CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS OF BBS-ING.

This she did do not .... and she can only do these out of her own freewill .... out of her own free choosing.

Thread answered and ends.
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  #396  
Old 05-08-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by benny vader View Post
Alrite people .... THE FACT THAT LANNY HAD IGNORED MY ARGUMENTS, REPEATEDLY

INDICATES THE VERY FACT THAT RANDOMNESS, AND THE FREEWILL THAT IS THE RESULT OF THIS RANDOMNESS IN ACTION .... EXISTS.

Both of them. Because have we been living in a deterministic world, where everything is predetermined, then she would had been replying to my arguments ....

SHE'D *HAVE* TO ... AS DETERMINED BY THE ETIQUETTE AND CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS OF BBS-ING.

This she did do not .... and she can only do these out of her own freewill .... out of her own free choosing.

Thread answered and ends.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
That's absolutely ridiculous. Clearly there is a thing in the world called a hole. Maybe a hole is just a particular arrangement of emptiness, but it's still a thing. There are a lot of good arguments for determinism, but "hurr durr, a hole is the absence of earth" is not one of them.
The term "hole" or belief that a "hole" does actually exist is a creation of mankind's need to be able to know or understand everything, which is an impossibility.

Of course a hole is a thing, I never stated otherwise. A hole is an absence of some form of corporeal, tangible substance that had once resided in that particular position and no longer does, thus creating a "hole", the lack of what ever substance previously existed there.

Oh. Yeah.

'hurr durr'

All apertures, whether man-made, or created in nature, can not be described in any other way.

Last edited by Sanzenbacher; 05-09-2012 at 10:13 PM.
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  #398  
Old 05-10-2012, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanzenbacher View Post
The term "hole" or belief that a "hole" does actually exist is a creation of mankind's need to be able to know or understand everything, which is an impossibility.

Of course a hole is a thing, I never stated otherwise. A hole is an absence of some form of corporeal, tangible substance that had once resided in that particular position and no longer does, thus creating a "hole", the lack of what ever substance previously existed there.

Oh. Yeah.

'hurr durr'

All apertures, whether man-made, or created in nature, can not be described in any other way.
Any that means the universe is deterministic because...?
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:31 PM
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trollism is a fucking social construct !!!! : Mad:
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

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Any that means the universe is deterministic because...?
Casual determinism =/= Logical determinism
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