What kind of ballistic damage can a bb gun do? (...lol)

[Ghost Buster]

So I've got a .177 cal CO2 powered bb gun pistol. I bought it to kill some rabbits in my backyard (no discharge laws in the city so I couldn't use a real gun), but now I'm considering keeping it in my car as some form of self defense from road raging drivers.

You see I live in the great empire of canada and the mentality seems to be the only form of appropriate self defense in public is to curl up into a ball and scream 'help me help me call the police'. Ergo I cannot carry a real handgun in public without risking serious jail time. Even if you have a restricted firearms license. You can only keep them in your car if they are unloaded and trigger locked, pretty much making them pointless for self defense in any public setting.

BB guns on the other hand are totally legal. If I had to use the bb gun for self defense, it would because a driver has blocked my car in by stopping in front of me, and is smashing on my window trying to get into the car (I saw this happen to someone the other day, the guy tried to break through the window by punching it. After he broke his hand and failed to break the glass he gave up and drove away, I watched this whole thing while stopped in traffic. btw the guy on the offensive was by himself and attacking a car with 5 guys in it haha if he managed to get through the glass he would have just been gang beaten, which made the situation even more comical to observe).

The pro to this situation is that if I need to use it, it will be used at point blank range, into someones face. Possibly eyes or mouth. That's gonna hurt like hell for sure, but I'm wondering what kind of damage it would actually do. I'm actually hoping it wouldn't do too much damage, because if it somehow killed the person I would still be in big legal trouble (fucking canada).

The bbs travel at about 285 FPS, maybe even 300 FPS at point blank. What sort of damage would that do if it were to hit a person in the face/mouth/eyes at point blank or near point blank?

BTW here is a pic of a rabbit I shot with it, so they can do some real damage.



The first few shots were done from like 15 feet and the chin shot was done at point blank to put it out of its misery.

So, if I hit someone in the eye with thing, will it kill them? (hopefully not)

[Ihaveafatcock]

Ive read at least on story of a kid dying from a bb gun shot to the eye, but i think you'd be better off with something like a baseball bat or a pipe. just keep a baseball bat with a glove and ball in your backseat or a cutting of pipe along with some tools or something.

Id rather have that than a bb gun. Even with my pellet rifle I cant take down 2lb birds half the fucking time. If your just trying to deter them mace would also be better, im not sure how canadian law looks at mace but here its perfectly legal for self defense

[roasted]

werent you just giving me crap about shooting prairie dogs?

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by Ihaveafatcock

i think you'd be better off with something like a baseball bat or a pipe. just keep a baseball bat with a glove and ball in your backseat or a cutting of pipe along with some tools or something.

Id rather have that than a bb gun. Even with my pellet rifle I cant take down 2lb birds half the fucking time. If your just trying to deter them mace would also be better, im not sure how canadian law looks at mace but here its perfectly legal for self defense

Canadian law is totally retarded, that's how it works. A baseball bat is totally impractical. I would be jailed for using it most likely, since it would be argued I didn't have to use it.

Under canadian law you would have to stay in your car and not engage the other person until you are absolutely forced to. At that point, getting a bat, and using it from the drivers seat, is totally impractical.

Fuck mace. I have no faith in that shit. I know my bb gun can take out eyes, and it has 17 rounds in one magazine. If need be I will blind the motherfucker with bbs without ever getting out of the drivers seat.

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by roasted

werent you just giving me crap about shooting prairie dogs?

Do prairie dogs rape the shit out of your garden?



Notice how the growth is inconsistent? Well it was all totally even before, then the rabbit ate most of the plants, except that one now overgrown patch, so I had to go out, buy new tomato plants, and plant them. Now the garden looks stupid. Before I wasn't bothering putting in steaks and taping them up because I figured they would just get eaten and it would be more trouble to replace them. Now that the rabbit is dead I can tend to the tomatoes properly.

I also tried to use a fence first, before killing them. It didn't work.

[Ghost Buster]

I suppose I should elaborate on the circumstances of its use. If someone blocks me in and starts hitting the window, legally, I can take the extreme action of calling the police. That's about it. Only once they get through the glass would any use of force be legally justifiable.

Assuming I get into a conflict with an individual smart enough to pick up a rock on the side of the road and break the glass, I would be in a bad position without weapon. At that point, I would be sitting down, and unable to quickly stand up/exit the car before he rushes the door and starts throwing punches in the window, opens the door, drags me out, and beats/kills me. I can only use force once hes threw the window, (and even then, I can't use lethal force). Mace is stupid, I won't ever advocate its use. A knife would be better, but its too lethal for my liking. BB gun seems like a pretty good option given the retarded canadian self defense laws. There isn't any sort of stand your ground type shit here, legally you are required to run away before using force.

[Ghost Buster]

Btw the pic of the rabbit and garden are from last year, but I'll probably have to do the same thing again in a few weeks. I like rabbits but I like my garden more.

I'll do some ballistic tests on the next rabbit corpse I get. I'm hoping the bbs don't go more than 1 cm deep at point blank. I didn't notice an exit wound on the rabbit head last time but then again I wasn't really looking for one.

[Ihaveafatcock]

you cant even carry a knife?
I got my spyderco endura in my pocket everyday no matter where im at. America Fuk yea

[Rodrat]

Onsidering how it killed that rabbit I would imagine a BB at point blank range to the eye permanently blinding them and a high chance of death. It would go through the eye and in the brain.

[Jerk.]

I purchased a bb gun (.177 cal co2), with the intent of using it for self defence (at home) an shooting small game if I wanted to. I chose one with a real speed of over 400 fps to maximise damage although I doubt it would be lethal. In saying that I think it would seriously fuck someone up to get shot in the face at least to the point where they are disorientated or are forced to flee. IMO people underestimate bb guns in the same way as a .22 although obviously I would want a 22> bb/pellet gun.

My main choice of self defence weapon which I believe is superior is a telescopic baton because I can choose between lethal and non lethal attacks depending on the threat level (eg number of attackers) because lethal force is legal where I live if it is appropriate.

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by Ihaveafatcock

you cant even carry a knife?
I got my spyderco endura in my pocket everyday no matter where im at. America Fuk yea

I can carry a knife (i think) but if I stab him and he dies I'll be charged with murder. Unless he also had a knife, in which case it would be justified.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01...ked-attackers/

Check this out. Some guys molotoved the fuck out of this guys house, and he ran out and fired off some shots. Hes probably going to jail. For firing off the shots. He didn't even shoot anyone.

I hate this country sometimes.

Mr. Thomson said he has added extra security to his home after the firebombing and hardly sleeps anymore. The charges, he said, have destroyed him.

“This is just an absolute nightmare, this whole thing,” he said. “People need to know that this is what can happen to you and which side of the victim line do you want to stand on? Lying down dead or in court? That’s the way it seems it has to go.”

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by Jerk.

because lethal force is legal where I live if it is appropriate.

Lucky you. If that were the case here, the BB gun would most certainly be replaced with a Beretta.

[The Pat-Man]

some kid died years ago when a bb went between his ribs and got his aorta.

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by The Pat-Man

some kid died years ago when a bb went between his ribs and got his aorta.

lol no way, link? Must have been one fucking strong bb gun I doubt mine could do anything like that.

[Ihaveafatcock]

Originally Posted by Ghost Buster;3523204

[url

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/01/20/man-faces-jail-after-protecting-home-from-masked-attackers/[/url]

thats so fucked
I cant imagine a bb gun would be a whole lot better legal wise than a tire iron or some other object you could have in your car without suspicion.

I dont feel like a bb gun could stop an attacker that truly wished to kill you. Sure itd hurt like shit but its not about to put anyone down. pepper spray would have higher odds of actually incapacitating someone

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by Ihaveafatcock

thats so fucked
I cant imagine a bb gun would be a whole lot better legal wise than a tire iron or some other object you could have in your car without suspicion.

I dont feel like a bb gun could stop an attacker that truly wished to kill you. Sure itd hurt like shit but its not about to put anyone down. pepper spray would have higher odds of actually incapacitating someone

Nah you're missing the point, but its not your fault, it takes a while to get the concept of canadian 'self defense' and I use that term loosely, as it really isn't self defense, but a bunch of out dated legal bullshit that makes no sense, and everyone including the police lawyers and judges, know it.

If I get out of my car and pull a bat and use it, I'm going to jail. End of story.

If someone attacks me while unarmed, I can't just bash their brains in with a tire iron.

If someone tried to attack me, and I willingly engage them and cause them serious injury, when I could have run away or stayed in my car, I'm going to jail. Even if I do so unarmed.

If someone tried to attack me on the road, the only thing I can do is sit in my car and call the police. Even getting out of the vehicle would be considered an act of aggression or instigation. I can't do that. It would be a lose-lose situation. Either I get out of the car and lose the fight. Or I get out of the car and win the fight. I could face charges in either event, but I most certainly would in the latter. I have to stay in the car. Thats the only legal thing to do. Stay in the car and watch the person attack my vehicle. (now you know why a car full of guys watched a single man punch their window in the incident I mentioned witnessing, if they got out and beat his ass they would all be going to jail).

You can consider canadas self defense laws as "coward laws". Any sort of action that could be seen as anything other than cowardly could potentially land me in jail. If someone smashes on my window, and I get out and fight them, and they get seriously hurt, I'm going to jail. Never-mind pulling out a tire iron or baseball bat, which very well may be considered attempted murder.

Given those options, a bat, or any weapon that needs to be swung, is out of the question. By the time I am legally allowed to use it, I will be unable to.

I don't want to use a bb gun lol I'd prefer to get out and kick some ass with my fists, I train mma. I can't do this for legal reasons. You can only fight back if you can prove you had no other choice, and getting out of the car proves you wanted to fight in the eyes of canadian law.

The person has to have broken through the glass and attempted to force their way into the car before I can legally do jack shit. Picture yourself sitting in the drivers seat with someone leaning in the window punching you. You can't use a bat in that situation and you can't really exit the vehicle at that point. Whatever I use needs to be effective from a sitting position.

Legally, its best if I stay sitting. I mean sure I could just get out and have a fist fight like a normal person, but I could go to jail. If I'm sitting there and shoot him in the face a bunch of times with the bb gun, it is more legally justified than getting out and punching him. Even if it blinds him in both eyes.

lol at canadian law.

E: Technically, I could use lethal force in that situation, if say they only thing I had was an ice pick and I plunged it into his eye, it would be justified if I said I was in genuine fear for my life. But I bet there would still be a trial, and a ton of bullshit, and its still a huge risk. Not something I want to deal with if it can be avoided. I'm hoping if something like that ever happens and they get through the glass, a few bbs to the face will stop them without causing serious harm or blinding them. But even if it does, its not like the canadian legal system is giving a lot of options here. bb is probably the best choice as it will be much more effective than pepper spray but is not likely to be fatal. If I killed him with it I could be like whoops didn't know it would do that I was scared for my life anyways, it was justified and I didn't intentionally kill him. If I stick him in the eye with an ice pick I wouldn't be able to say I didn't intend to kill him.

[Ihaveafatcock]

wow that sucks. I dont think my state has past a castle doctrine law but im still sure no judge or cop will fuck me for holding my own. So your not going to even pull out the bb gun until they break in the car? If you had pepper spray youd fuck yourself up spraying it inside a car. I know itd be very akward and you couldnt extend your full force and range of motion but id still take my knife over a bb gun in a car. As long as no ones going to shake you down for just carrying a knife.
Are stun guns legal to carry in a vehicle in canada? An actual stun gun (not a shitty tazer like wimminz carry the ones that shoot out prongs) can really fuck shit up, if you have the money for that kind of thing

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by Ihaveafatcock

wow that sucks. I dont think my state has past a castle doctrine law but im still sure no judge or cop will fuck me for holding my own. So your not going to even pull out the bb gun until they break in the car? If you had pepper spray youd fuck yourself up spraying it inside a car. I know itd be very akward and you couldnt extend your full force and range of motion but id still take my knife over a bb gun in a car. As long as no ones going to shake you down for just carrying a knife.
Are stun guns legal to carry in a vehicle in canada? An actual stun gun (not a shitty tazer like wimminz carry the ones that shoot out prongs) can really fuck shit up, if you have the money for that kind of thing

Not a bad idea, but I'd have to imagine they are illegal. I'm actually pretty sure mace is illegal here too. I could use dog spray though... lol.

I also don't have the money for a tazer, and I already have the BB gun. I could just keep a knife and bb gun in the car, that seems like a pretty good combo. BB gun to deter, knife to incapacitate if need be.

I'm pretty sure a bb gun would do that trick though. 17 rounds should be able to get his eyes lol. I would fire just 1 or 2 at first and if he kept coming after that I would unload the gun in his face and then stab him if that didn't work. I guess that will be my battle plan if anyone tries to storm my car... lol.

Fucking canada.

[roasted]

Originally Posted by Ihaveafatcock

wow that sucks. [b]I dont think my state has past a castle doctrine law [/B

I could be wrong, but I think every state has some form of the castle doctrine. There a wiki article about it (that I didnt read) but I think the only differences in the law are stand your ground vs duty to retreat. I cant imagine that its illegal anywhere to fight for your life if you have no other choice. I dont see much logic in duty to retreat, but I can see why some states have adopted that.

[Groundhog whacka]

Originally Posted by Ghost Buster

Do prairie dogs rape the shit out of your garden?

Why yes they do. Not my garden but the pasture we hunted. Every one of those light spots is a mound. Easily 500 acres that look just like this. Each of the holes is approximately 1 to 1 1/2' diameter. If your house was anywhere near there it they would move right into your yard.

[Infrared]

Reminds me of the good ol' days, standing on my great grandma's porch as a kid, whippinhmg rocks at prairie dogs with a homeade sling...those little bastards feared me! It was a persistent colony that had been there for about 60 years..my grandpa Ray would stand out there and pick 'em off with a .22, only stopping when the SCHOOL at the end of the block complained! lololol!! Dangerous old bastard.

Sorry, off-topic, but there's not much I can add to what's been said. Just to throw it out there.....paintball gun? A decent semiauto one. A few of those to an unprotected face.....ouch.

[Ghost Buster]

^Not a bad idea, if I didn't already have the bb gun I'd look into that more, but as it stands seems like bb gun is the winnar.

[Infrared]

Perhaps, but consider, a paintball is much larger-diameter and weight than a bb, and yet is propelled at close to the same speed (don't quote me on that - depends on the gun, power source, etc). Not only does this mean that a paintball to the face feels like a good solid kick, it also means that you have potential disorientation/temporary blindness from paint in the eyes (and being "kicked" in the face, so to speak)...All this, and with an acceptably low chance of lethality (again, don't quote me - eye shots, throat shots, etc. Could possibly kill). Just bring a good, sharp knife or hatchet or machete - not too long given your intended use - for last-resort lethal force.
Also, while I am no Canadian legal expert eh, I imagine that it would be a bit harder to establish that you did intend to kill/maim if you shot your attacker with a paintball gun as opposed to a BB gun. Just a thought, eh

[Ghost Buster]

I've been hosed with a full auto paintball gun before, shit hurts, and I had a mask on, but I wouldn't count on that to stop someone by the damage it inflicts. Also a good paintball gun isn't going to fit in my glove box. The only pro I see to a paintball gun is that it would be easier to blind them, and that's not really my goal. If you get shot in the mouth a paintball you're just going to be mad as hell with no real damage done, maybe a busted lip. If you get shot in the mouth a bb you're going to be bleeding and probably have some chipped teeth and some real wounds. I feel like that is more of a deterrent.

The main issues are the size of a paintball gun, and the fact that I'd have to go out and buy one. No way to conceal a paintball gun in my car, not a good one anyways. And I don't really want another gun toy. I'm saving my gun money for real guns at this point.

Haha I can't believe I forgot about this story until now considering I made this thread. Back in like grade 9 I was at a news years party with some friends. There like I dunno 150 people at the party in total. All white kids. Except 2 black kids. One of the black kids pulled out some sort of very real looking pistol, for some reason, not sure why. The other black guy was like "haha that thing isn't real". The black guy with the pistol chose to not to respond with words, but rather to shoot the other black kid in the face at point blank. I dunno if it was pellet gun or bb gun or how strong it was, but the projectile went through the black kids lower lip and chipped one of his teeth.

I remember making some jokes afterwords like "lol... there were only 2 black people at that party and one of them shot the other one in the face for no reason". Got some good laughs.

[p6867]

When i was 19 i was off base at a part where some shitty wiggers shot my fried about 15 times in the neck head and face with a bb gun much like yours. He was bleeding a lot, but still managed to grab the guy shooting at him and pummel him until the shooter needed much more hospital time than my cut and scarred friend.

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by p6867

When i was 19 i was off base at a part where some shitty wiggers shot my fried about 15 times in the neck head and face with a bb gun much like yours. He was bleeding a lot, but still managed to grab the guy shooting at him and pummel him until the shooter needed much more hospital time than my cut and scarred friend.

lol. Ya that's totally possible and I know it. I thought of a strategy to fight someone with a bb gun a long time ago after people started buying them in high school. Step 1) using your left arm protect your eyes from direct line of fire Step 2) Rush the person and go for a take down. Step 3) Jiu-Jitsu.

Its totally possible to take someone with a bb gun out, but that being said I'd still rather have one than not have one. I wouldn't attack someone with a bb gun, that's for sure, the bb gun fighting tactics were for a potential self defense scenario. In this scenario the bb gun would mainly be a non lethal deterrent. I also have a knife in my car. If the bbs don't work a buck knife probably will, and I'd imagine they would have a hard time avoiding a stabbing after I shoot their eyes out.

At the least the bb gun should scare/surprise them/ make them back away from the door. At this point I can exit the vehicle, and would no longer be in a disadvantageous sitting position.

[p6867]

If i'm going to be stuck in a car, i'd use a combination of mace and knife.

[Ghost Buster]

Originally Posted by p6867

If i'm going to be stuck in a car, i'd use a combination of mace and knife.

Not a bad combo idea. Just looked it up though. Mace is illegal here for non law enforcement personal to carry. lol. Fuck canada seriously.

[Spence_tron]

Originally Posted by Infrared

Perhaps, but consider, a paintball is much larger-diameter and weight than a bb, and yet is propelled at close to the same speed (don't quote me on that - depends on the gun, power source, etc).

The typical .68 paintball guns shoot at 280-320fps, with most organized arena's having a max of 300fps for safety. So yeah, the OP's bb pistol (being a rather weak one at that) shoots about the same. Most paintballs weigh around 3.2g while most bb's weigh about .33g, so the paintball gun has a large ft/lb advantage over the bb gun. On the other hand, paintballs shatter upon impact so the energy is much more dispersed... but I still think that a few shots of a paintball gun to the face would deter someone better than a few shots of a weak ass bb pistol.

A fully automatic airsoft gun could really do some damage to the face too, and would allow you to liberally spray the attacker until he decides that getting 15 bb's per second shot into his face isn't worth it. It's not that expensive to soup up an AEG to shoot 400+fps with .2g 6mm bb's, and some green gas powered pistols/SMG's shoot 350-400fps right out of the box. You could use heavier BB's to get more energy out of them too (they make metal coated ones in the .4-.6g range). I have a Steyr AUG AEG that shoots about 20 BB's/sec @ 375fps with a 330rd magazine, I *really* would not want to be without pads/goggles anywhere near that BB hose. It would be impractical to carry that in your car, but an electric MP5K or green gas powered UZI would provide similar performance in a smaller package.

Edit: My vote for what to actually use would be bear mace, just say you are worried about bear attacks so you always carry some in your car (if it was ever put into question).

[Ghost Buster]

^I'm looking into bear spray now, pretty sure its legal in canada. (but mace isn't... lol)

Seems to work pretty good

Bear Mace - YouTube

Bear Mace - YouTube
Video: click to display

[Infrared]

Fuck that ugly, demanding bitch in that video. Lol. You can tell she truly enjoys his pain. Fucking women....lol

I enjoyed it too, though.

[Rodrat]

Originally Posted by Infrared

Perhaps, but consider, a paintball is much larger-diameter and weight than a bb, and yet is propelled at close to the same speed (don't quote me on that - depends on the gun, power source, etc). Not only does this mean that a paintball to the face feels like a good solid kick, it also means that you have potential disorientation/temporary blindness from paint in the eyes (and being "kicked" in the face, so to speak)...All this, and with an acceptably low chance of lethality (again, don't quote me - eye shots, throat shots, etc. Could possibly kill). Just bring a good, sharp knife or hatchet or machete - not too long given your intended use - for last-resort lethal force.
Also, while I am no Canadian legal expert eh, I imagine that it would be a bit harder to establish that you did intend to kill/maim if you shot your attacker with a paintball gun as opposed to a BB gun. Just a thought, eh

There was a guy back in high-school that took a paintball to the eye and he had to have surgery and is mostly blind in it. I think shooting someone in the face at point blank range would definitely get them to back off! Go with the paintball gun.

[Ghost Buster]

Have you ever seen a paintball gun before? I drive a small car. Totally impractical.



That's not gonna be concealable in my car. Well I could put it in the trunk, but that would be pointless.

[Infrared]

Hey Ghost, ? Lol. Kidding.

I'm not saying there is anything terribly wrong with your bb gun. I'm only giving another idea. You don't need a paintball gun with a bigass tank and giant hopper - just a simple one with a stick tube and powered by 12 gm. Powerlets. It would still be big, yes, but maneuverable enough, and easily concealed with a jacket, floormat, etc. Again, just a thought. True, you have a bb gun now and would have to go buy the PBG. I understand. But hey, you may change your mind


Y U NO LIKE MY IDEA EH?!

[Rodrat]

I have one that is about the size of a large handgun. Holds 8 paintballs its small enough to conceal and rips off skin at close range.