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  #41  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:48 AM
gadzooks gadzooks is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
Lower class Whites and Blacks produce at rates that are right around replacement level. In fact, at the time of this writing, they may not be procreating enough to achieve stagnation levels.

...

The healthcare system is what is harming the Earth. It is what has enabled humanity to procreate at the rates at which they currently do.
So then what exactly is the problem then?

If we are procreating at suboptimal rates, which is what you are claiming, then we clearly need more healthcare.
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  #42  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:51 AM
Struwwelpeter Struwwelpeter is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

I have never said that anyone is procreating at "sub-optimal" rates. I have no opinion as to what the optimal rate of procreation is. Only Nature can decide what that is.
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  #43  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:57 AM
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

Drug disposal usually involves fire toliets or garbage which is terrible
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  #44  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:58 AM
gadzooks gadzooks is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
I have never said that anyone is procreating at "sub-optimal" rates. I have no opinion as to what the optimal rate of procreation is. Only Nature can decide what that is.
You said that they aren't procreating enough (to achieve stagnation levels, at least).

Anyway, you're clearly making a value judgment on the state of fertility rates:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
The healthcare system itself has enabled the human population to grow to around seven billion people -- imagine the threat that his presents to Earth.
You seem to have quite a strong opinion regarding what the optimal rate of procreation is.

There are too many people: I agree with this.

Overpopulation threatens our ecosystem. I agree with this as well.

The healthcare system is a problem: I completely disagree with this.
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  #45  
Old 05-06-2012, 02:04 AM
Struwwelpeter Struwwelpeter is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Drug disposal usually involves fire toliets or garbage which is terrible
Yes, indeed.

And a lot of our garbage winds up in the Earth's waters, further converting most organisms in to biological slop.
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  #46  
Old 05-06-2012, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by gadzooks View Post
You said that they aren't procreating enough (to achieve stagnation levels, at least).
And I never said that there was anything wrong with that.

I said that as refutation of your assertion that "Mary Sue" and "Shaniqua" are part of the problem. They are not.

Quote:
Anyway, you're clearly making a value judgment on the state of fertility rates:



You seem to have quite a strong opinion regarding what the optimal rate of procreation is.
I don't have a strong opinion as to what the optimal rate of procreation is.

There will always be people who procreate at high rates regardless of whether or not their children survive past the age of 10.

What I have a problem with is a healthcare system that has enabled for the human population to grow to a point that causes harm to the planet itself. And even if it didn't present a threat to the environment I would still be against it because it is vain and spiritually depraved. And if you want to ignore the spiritual/moral side of the argument, I'm against anything that gives humankind too much control over the world.

Last edited by Struwwelpeter; 05-06-2012 at 02:14 AM.
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  #47  
Old 05-06-2012, 02:18 AM
gadzooks gadzooks is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
What I have a problem with is a healthcare system that has enabled for the human population to grow to a point that causes harm to the planet itself.
Again, you're pointing the blame in the wrong direction.

Individual citizens need to take some responsibility for their own actions and the consequences those actions have on our planet.

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Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
And even if it didn't present a threat to the environment I would still be against it because it is vain and spiritually depraved.
What does that even mean???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
And if you want to ignore the spiritual/moral side of the argument, I'm against anything that gives humankind too much control over the world.
That's only because you have a negative view of humanity. If people were better and more well-intentioned, then it would be a good thing for us to have more control over nature.
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  #48  
Old 05-06-2012, 02:26 AM
Struwwelpeter Struwwelpeter is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by gadzooks View Post
Again, you're pointing the blame in the wrong direction.

Individual citizens need to take some responsibility for their own actions and the consequences those actions have on our planet.
But why? It is not in a man's nature to be "responsible." Man is an animal, and his urges are more important than the social agenda of people who wish to keep him from behaving as he wants to.



Quote:
That's only because you have a negative view of humanity. If people were better and more well-intentioned, then it would be a good thing for us to have more control over nature.
I have a very positive view of humanity. I am against man having control over nature not just because of his "bad" intentions but also because of his "good" intentions. What you call "well-intentioned" is actually just as undesirable, if not more so, than what you consider to be "bad."
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  #49  
Old 05-06-2012, 02:36 AM
gadzooks gadzooks is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
But why? It is not in a human's nature to be "responsible." Man is an animal, and his urges are more important than the social agenda of people who wish to keep him from behaving as he wants to.
You know, I kinda agree with you on this in some respects.

I too take the Hobbesian view of human nature.

That being said though, it is important for us to at least try to tame the wild beast within us. The only way we're ever going to evolve is if we take on that task.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
I have a very positive view of humanity. I am against mankind having control over nature not just because of his "bad" intentions but also because of his "good" intentions. What you call "well-intentioned" is actually just as bad, if not worse, than what you consider to be "bad."
How so? How is there no distinction between positive and negative human intentions?
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  #50  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:00 AM
Struwwelpeter Struwwelpeter is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by gadzooks View Post

That being said though, it is important for us to at least try to take the wild beast within us. The only way we're ever going to evolve is if we take on that task.
But why should we "evolve?"

If a beast is the mold to which Nature shaped us, then there is no sense in trying to be anything else.

The beast is superior to the neotenized organism that you idealize at this point and time.

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How so? How is there no distinction between positive and negative human intentions?
We would be opening a can of worms by getting in to this discussion but I will answer with this: all human intentions are universally undesirable. Nature is supreme.

Insofar as the distinction between the outcomes of the intentions themselves (historically) I would say that there is no real difference at all. Just see this thread, for example. Healthcare could be considered a "positive" human intention, but it has done great harm to the environment and to humanity itself.
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  #51  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
But why should we "evolve?"
all species have to keep evolving. i mean for one, and despite all the alarmist bullshit, the fact is that temperatures on earth fluctuate. we have ice ages, warm periods etc that have major impacts on the environment. the strongest animals survive best in these changes and the weaker species become extinct. i doubt modern man will do so well when we do have the next ice age tho. its too weakened already.
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  #52  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

There is no doubt that all organisms have to adapt to environmental changes.

But what Gadzooks is advocating for is not "evolution" in that sense. He is advocating for man to become less like an animal and more like some neotenous, slave-like being that behaves according to the way that society wants him to, and to be engineered that way, by man (or machine), not freely, by Nature.

There is no sense in this direction. Not only is it undesirable and accidental, it doesn't even work. Human behavior has never been more adequately controlled than it is today, and in spite of this we are "de-volving," in the same sense that Gadzooks describes "evolution." I don't think anyone will disagree that contemporary art, for example, is totally inferior to art that existed 400 years ago. Back when the world was much more "beastly" than it is now.





Marvel at how far we have come.

And then there's the way that we communicate nowadays (posting pictures of cats to convey feelings), our cell-phone culture, the way that the internet has shaped the human brain and made it more child-like. We live in a world that is becoming significantly more crude than the one that existed before (and in all the wrong ways).

Last edited by Struwwelpeter; 05-06-2012 at 04:08 AM.
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  #53  
Old 05-06-2012, 04:12 AM
bortmackie bortmackie is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

What does this have to do with healthcare? I agree that our culture is all kinds of bullshit, especially advertising, and that our priorities as a society are all out of whack. I have yet to see any evidence of how healthcare is detrimental to the human race, however. Like i said earlier, it enables us to be more productive. We have plenty of problems with our rampant overconsumption and materialism, but scientific advancement and medical discoveries are beneficial for us. The problem with healthcare is corruption, with the pharmaceutical companies calling the shots, and making things more about making a profit than effectively treating patients. It's always a good idea to get second opinions and consider effective treatments, or whether a treatment is even necessary. And while we are totally distracted as a society by our technology, advertising, and pursuit of material happiness, that doesn't mean our culture is totally devoid of meaning. The restructuring of the music business means that we have the greatest access to all kinds of music, and it's more about getting people to listen than just making money. I just really disagree with these totally pessimistic views on human society. It's really easy to point out the flaws, and we very clearly have some serious problems, but pessimism is a shitty way to live. Who wants to go through life with a stupid fire and brimstone mentality where everything is constantly on the verge of disaster and we might as well not even try because we're doomed? Existentialism is valid, but theres a certain amount of cowardice in actually believing that shit. It takes more courage to stay positive and actively try to seek meaning in your life than to say "fuck it" and just decide that it's not even worth it. I can't wait til Dec 21 2012 passes by without incidents and all those people look like complete idiots for misleading everyone about how the world is going to end. Chicken little motherfuckers...
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  #54  
Old 05-06-2012, 05:33 AM
Struwwelpeter Struwwelpeter is offline
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by bortmackie View Post
What does this have to do with healthcare?
It has more to do with Gadzook's belief that humanity should try to "evolve."


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I have yet to see any evidence of how healthcare is detrimental to the human race, however. Like i said earlier, it enables us to be more productive.
This idea that people need to be "productive" is part of the problem.


Quote:
We have plenty of problems with our rampant overconsumption and materialism, but scientific advancement and medical discoveries are beneficial for us.
No, they are not. They are wholly detrimental. And most people would agree. Very few people are even interested in the advancement of science or healthcare anymore. Here in our society most people are beginning to deplore these sorts of things. There's a widespread belief in the scientific community that we're spending too much money on sports programs while cutting funding for science projects and the like. There's a another "problem" (for them): most kids just aren't interested in science or technology anymore. And that's because very few people want to see a continuance of science or medical discoveries and all of the rest of that stuff.

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The problem with healthcare is corruption, with the pharmaceutical companies calling the shots, and making things more about making a profit than effectively treating patients.
And let us thank God that they do, for if they didn't, the system would be even more monstrous than it is now.

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It's always a good idea to get second opinions and consider effective treatments, or whether a treatment is even necessary. And while we are totally distracted as a society by our technology, advertising, and pursuit of material happiness, that doesn't mean our culture is totally devoid of meaning.
As of writing this I cannot think of any redeeming qualities of our culture. Having said that, I cannot think of hardly any redeeming qualities of any culture in history. Culture itself is an accident, a meaningless game that we all trade our lives to play in.

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The restructuring of the music business means that we have the greatest access to all kinds of music, and it's more about getting people to listen than just making money.
True, we have greater access to music than ever before. But the vast majority of the music that has been produced for the past 200 years or so has been utterly decrepid. And that's because of the very fact that so many people are able to produce music today. Just about everything that could be done (musically) has been done already, and now that there's nothing left to produce we've ended up with stuff the likes of Dubstep.

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I just really disagree with these totally pessimistic views on human society. It's really easy to point out the flaws, and we very clearly have some serious problems, but pessimism is a shitty way to live.

Who wants to go through life with a stupid fire and brimstone mentality where everything is constantly on the verge of disaster and we might as well not even try because we're doomed?
I'm fairly optimistic about the future, and I don't think that we are doomed. We would be doomed if the way things are now were to continue forever. I'm fairly confident that they won't.

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Existentialism is valid, but theres a certain amount of cowardice in actually believing that shit. It takes more courage to stay positive and actively try to seek meaning in your life
I'm just curious about how you intend to seek any "meaning" in your life in this world (or the particular part of the world that you and I happen to live in). I cannot think of anything meaningful that one could do while still abiding by values that you eschew.

Last edited by Struwwelpeter; 05-06-2012 at 05:40 AM.
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  #55  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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This is typical of a liberal progressive. Always thinking with emotion instead of the brain. The simple fact is that humanity is getting softer and weaker with every generation. The biggest cause of this is modern medicine. I believe that defectives should at the very least be sterillized so they can't corrupt the gene pool further. It's actually possible to discover defects before a baby is born. Making it mandatory to abort defectives could help this problem.
please sit evidence to back up your claims regarding the softening up of humanity. empirical evidence, not anectdotal.
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  #56  
Old 05-06-2012, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

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Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey View Post
The healthcare system itself has enabled the human population to grow to around seven billion people -- imagine the threat that his presents to Earth.
what if the population shrank to about 1 billion? Will that make our ecological footprint manageable for the planet as a whole?

If so, what is your opinion on how to lower the population to sustainable levels?

I think humanity must be educated about the real dangers of overpopulation. There where studies of school children in second world countries who were easily swayed into believing that having no children is good.
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  #57  
Old 05-06-2012, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Healthcare is bad for the environment

I vote Republican. They are the party of Life. More births = accelerated consumption = the sooner the system melts down.
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  #58  
Old 05-06-2012, 07:00 PM
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Last edited by sepht; 05-06-2012 at 07:03 PM.
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