W&C Random Thread

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by The Swede

Swedish*

That too.

[Hydroponichronic]

Probably a stupid set of questions, but one I've never given much though to. Would tracer rounds keep burning if they impacted an organic target? If so, would this cause any major tissue damage? Would the caliber or manufacturer of the tracer matter?

[reggie_love]

Well, aren't tracers some kind of phosphorous compound? I think they do burn in the target.

They're banned in certain jurisdictions because of their potential for a wildfire hazard, so I don't see why they couldn't keep burning in a living target, except that oxygen may be too limited.

[jheit8]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Probably a stupid set of questions, but one I've never given much though to. Would tracer rounds keep burning if they impacted an organic target? If so, would this cause any major tissue damage? Would the caliber or manufacturer of the tracer matter?

Tracers have relatively little phosphorous in them, so I doubt that a modern tracer round is going to be as much of a fire hazard as a "fucking bullet wound" hazard. Tracers only burn at the base, also.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by reggie_love

They're banned in certain jurisdictions because of their potential for a wildfire hazard, so I don't see why they couldn't keep burning in a living target, except that oxygen may be too limited.

Yea, I'm not sure if tracers have an oxidizer present in their formulation.

Originally Posted by jheit8

Tracers have relatively little phosphorous in them,

I imagine a little phosphorous goes along way inside of a soft target. The stuff is pretty toxic, IIRC.

Originally Posted by jheit8

I doubt that a modern tracer round is going to be as much of a fire hazard as a "fucking bullet wound" hazard.

For high-powered rounds, sure. But for smaller rounds (22lr) the "fucking bullet wound" isn't so bad.

Originally Posted by jheit8

Tracers only burn at the base, also.

The bullet would likely tumble on impact, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Spence_tron]

Bullets get pretty hot anyways because of the friction with air caused by both the velocity and rpm of the projectile. I've heard that the heat generated by the bullet actually works against its wounding potential, by slightly cauterizing the area around the wound, slowing blood loss. I'd imagine the effect would be negligible anyways (even with tracers), especially if using fragmenting/expanding bullets.

Speaking of tracer rounds, apparently 5.56 tracers (XM856) aren't manufactured with the steel penetrators that M855 has... But then why are my XM856 rounds attracting to magnets at the tip of the bullet??

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by Spence_tron

Speaking of tracer rounds, apparently 5.56 tracers (XM856) aren't manufactured with the steel penetrators that M855 has... But then why are my XM856 rounds attracting to magnets at the tip of the bullet??

Good question. I'd be curious to find out.

[Hydroponichronic]

So what is the deal with ATF "rulings"? The atf "ruled" that a flare-gun insert is an AOW. However, that is not at all reflected by the actual NFA. Can the ATF just say something is an AOW and have it be law?

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

So what is the deal with ATF "rulings"? The atf "ruled" that a flare-gun insert is an AOW. However, that is not at all reflected by the actual NFA. Can the ATF just say something is an AOW and have it be law?

ATF interpretation does not equal law.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

ATF interpretation does not equal law.

So, they were basically bullshitting then?

Fuckin government...

[Hydroponichronic]

Prototype Quadrotor with Machine Gun! - YouTube

Prototype Quadrotor with Machine Gun! - YouTube
Video: click to display

Imma be honest, my pants were sticky after watching that one.

[Hydroponichronic]

Bad firearm safety to be sure, but still a cool story:

http://1loop.com/g3kmc

[jheit8]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Bad firearm safety to be sure, but still a cool story:

http://1loop.com/g3kmc

Sometimes reality cheats.

[HMC]

"I've heard that the heat generated by the bullet actually works against its wounding potential, by slightly cauterizing the area around the wound"

This is false, at least with any caliber you can buy at WalMart. Ballistic gelatin would be much more sensitive to heat than human flesh, and I have never seen any sign of melted gelatin in any of the testing I have done. And for what its worth the stuff melts at less than 150 degress F.

Also, I am not sure if the tracer rounds have their own oxidizer, but I remember watching the bullet and tracer components separate after shooting hard targets at night. Im sure the stuff would still burn during penetration, but with a 5.56mm it wouldnt matter as mentioned above.

[Spence_tron]

Originally Posted by HMC

"I've heard that the heat generated by the bullet actually works against its wounding potential, by slightly cauterizing the area around the wound"

This is false, at least with any caliber you can buy at WalMart. Ballistic gelatin would be much more sensitive to heat than human flesh, and I have never seen any sign of melted gelatin in any of the testing I have done. And for what its worth the stuff melts at less than 150 degress F.

Also, I am not sure if the tracer rounds have their own oxidizer, but I remember watching the bullet and tracer components separate after shooting hard targets at night. Im sure the stuff would still burn during penetration, but with a 5.56mm it wouldnt matter as mentioned above.

Good to know! I figured that the heat of bullets dissipates pretty quickly anyways, that was just what I heard from someone (a medic in the military) who was pretty reputable (apparently not 100% reputable).

[Hydroponichronic]

Who says recoil is a bad thing?

[reggie_love]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Who says recoil is a bad thing?

[Hydroponichronic]

Ladies and gentlemen, concealed carry at its finest:



(PS, for those who haven't picked up on it, I shamelessly repost from reddit)

[5.56 SS109]

+P+ ain't no fucking joke.

Should of stood a few more feet back to avoid the shower, but I am not use to 9mm doing that to water jugs.



Federal 9BPLE (115gr +P+ Hi-Shok JHP) into water jugs.





Not sure how the pictures got flipped, but you get idea.

Diameter was .625".

Not bad for $15 per 50, I'd take it over Corbon's plain vanilla JHPs anyday.

[5.56 SS109]

Finally collected enough jugs to test my "go to" 9x19 handload. I use 6.0 grains of Alliant Power Pistol behind a 124gr Hornady XTP, never got to chrono it yet but based on the books it should be just under 1200 fps.

This was fired out of my 92G.








Didn't bother to weigh it, but it looks complete so I'll say it is at least 120grs but I'll bet it lost nothing.

Diameter was .605"

[Hydroponichronic]

Good expansion. Seems like an odd spot for a playstation, though.

[5.56 SS109]

Haha yeah I could see what you mean because of the angle.

That is actually the shelf under a TV stand though.

[Hydroponichronic]

AK47 Spetsnaz Pushups - 2 - YouTube

AK47 Spetsnaz Pushups - 2 - YouTube
Video: click to display

Lets see your P-Mag do THAT!

[Hydroponichronic]

Out of curiosity, is there an equation for muzzle velocity (given identical loadings) between different weights of bullets? I was thinking about the AK-47, and one of the complaints it gets is poor energy dispersion in soft targets. If one just loaded it with much lighter bullets (different metal?) could one get sufficient velocities to see the desired effects?

[Ph0x]

You can load x39 with 125 grain vmax .308'' bullet but accuracy will suffer.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by phox

You can load x39 with 125 grain vmax .308'' bullet but accuracy will suffer.

Why will the accuracy suffer? Sorry if that's a dumb question; I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to internal ballistics. Also, why will you get more velocity with a 125 grain bullet when a 123 grain is standard in 7.62x39?

[5.56 SS109]

7.62x39 is typically about .311" in diameter, using .308 projectiles won't allow the bullet to fully contact the rifling.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

7.62x39 is typically about .311" in diameter, using .308 projectiles won't allow the bullet to fully contact the rifling.

The tolerances are that tight that three thousandths of an inch will make a difference? Wow.

That said, I'm still hoping for some answers:

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Out of curiosity, is there an equation for muzzle velocity (given identical loadings) between different weights of bullets? I was thinking about the AK-47, and one of the complaints it gets is poor energy dispersion in soft targets. If one just loaded it with much lighter bullets (different metal?) could one get sufficient velocities to see the desired effects?

[Spence_tron]

^ I'm pretty sure that you would have to know (or at least estimate) the momentum of the lighter bullet to calculate it's velocity.

http://www.1728.org/energy.htm


There may also be formula's to find momentum (muzzle energy) given identical powder loads but with differing mass/velocity projectiles, if you want a more accurate calculation than just estimating its muzzle energy.

[5.56 SS109]

Oh yeah, sorry.

The issue is that most 7.62x39 bullets have mild steel in their jackets, so they don't fragment easily.

You are correct about different metal in the jacket making a difference.

Here is a factory loaded 7.62x39 using a Hornady VMAX bullet into gel:

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/mo...&sID=148&pID=1

So, bottom line, it all has to do with the jacket material.

Yugo M67 surplus was great because it was a typical copper jacket over a lead core, so it fragmented much like M193 55gr FMJ out of a 5.56 NATO.

[Hydroponichronic]

If ever a post was on topic in this thread:

It turns out, if you empty out some 12 gauge target loads, and refill them with a .625" marble, they are inaccurate as fuck. Maybe a 3 foot group at 25 yards. In case anyone was wondering, my thought was that marbles are about the right size to fit inside the shot cup (wad), are $1 for 50, and would save me from casting my own slugs. Basically a way to do cheap target shooting with a shotgun.

[Hydroponichronic]

Heck, as long as I'm running back-to-back posts in this thread, one more question: what role does cartridge volume play in the burning of the powder? Never thought about it, but with modern powders there isn't any need to fill the entire case to get the desired pressures. So why not make newer cartridges with smaller dimensions for higher mag capacity/lower cost? I mean, I get the impression that you could get 308 ballistics out of an AK if you just filled the case to the top. Though you might have to mod the gas system.

[5.56 SS109]

This is how they make M&P40s:

[tuer502gt]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Why will the accuracy suffer? Sorry if that's a dumb question; I'm not the most knowledgeable when it comes to internal ballistics. Also, why will you get more velocity with a 125 grain bullet when a 123 grain is standard in 7.62x39?

You'd think the heat would be able to make that tiny bit of expansion to make it snug in the barrel.

A long, long time ago, I remember talking to a handloader about reloading .303 and he said something about them being closer to .31 in diameter rather than .30 in diameter. I can't remember the specifics though. But he reckons there was some issue. He could easily have been blowing shit out of his arse though.

[RadicalApex]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

This is how they make M&P40s:

Haha. Indeed. How ironic is it that my favorite three pistol I own are the M&P 40c, the USP 40T, and the Mark 23 I got a bit back. I guess we all know what style pistols I like.

[Hydroponichronic]

I had a thought the other day. The 22lr is a dirt cheap cartridge, but lacking in some of that kick n boom that makes shooting so fun. So, what if a gun could be designed to fire 2+ rounds at the same time? The first thing that comes to mind is that this could be construed to fall under the definition of a machine-gun. I thought this could be skirted with something like 2+ triggers so close together they could be pulled at the same time. Alternatively, some cheap (reusable) aluminum "shells" could be made to hold the multiple rounds together (as one "round") to have the resulting firearm count as some kind of bizarre, multi-barrel shotgun. If the "shells" approach could be used, then it would also be easier to feed them from mags, since there wouldn't be a protruding rim.

Alternatively, since this clearly isn't the type of gun the NFA was passed to restrict, the ATF might just approve it if they were asked.

Any thoughts?

[Spence_tron]

I'm almost certain that it would be classified as a fully-automatic firearm, firing multiple shots from a single trigger pull.

Regardless, I immediately thought of David Dardick's trounds, and how a .22 adaptation of the "project salvo" or "terra-drill" trounds would be perfect for this. They could be fed from a three barreled magazine fed "rifle" with a Dardick style rotary cylinder to align the tround to the barrels.

Maybe if the .22lr cartridges were factory installed into the trounds and they were not removable then it could be considered an exotic shotgun loading (still unlikely because the weapons firing them will have multiple barrels). It would still be lame if you had to buy expensive and rare proprietary .22lr trounds though.

Edit: Well it looks like (from what I'm reading) you have to pay the tax stamp for these, so there may not be hope for a loophole.

[5.56 SS109]

I textured the ugly beat-up grips on my trade in Beretta, not sure what I think of it yet.



It's a little sharp, carrying it without an undershirt will suck.

It is a hell of a lot more grippy though.

[reggie_love]

^ Do you ever do the dish soap draw test?

[5.56 SS109]

It sounds completely moronic, but I don't even have a holster for that gun yet.

It seems that every single cent of "gun stuff money" has been going towards reloading. But I'll see how it handles next time I'm at the range, but I figure that if it's rougher than my USP and the factory stippling on the USP is more than adequate, that the DIY job on the Beretta should be fine.