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  #161  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:16 AM
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Just like a hospital patient has the CLAIM that they are in pain with no real proof besides their word.
No. While the hospital patient makes that claim, he also has evidence supporting his claim (e.g. a scrape, a broken limb that can be seen on x-ray, etc.). That's not analogous to a gnostic theist who provides no evidence.

Furthermore, and more importantly, the patient isn't making a supernatural and outrageous claim, he's making a mundane one. We're justifiable more cautious when accepting extraordinary claims.

They are not the same thing.
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  #162  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:22 AM
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No. While the hospital patient makes that claim, he also has evidence supporting his claim (e.g. a scrape, a broken limb that can be seen on x-ray, etc.). That's not analogous to a gnostic theist who provides no evidence.

Furthermore, and more importantly, the patient isn't making a supernatural and outrageous claim, he's making a mundane one. We're justifiable more cautious when accepting extraordinary claims.

They are not the same thing.
I'm talking about a hospital patient with pain that appears to have no origin, as is common with back/spinal pain.

The claim of God's existence is a pretty mundane claim to a huge majority of the Earth's population, and there is no reason you should find it "outrageous."
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Old 06-17-2012, 02:26 AM
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Just like a hospital patient has the CLAIM that they are in pain with no real proof besides their word.
How does that prove God?
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  #164  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:30 AM
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How does that prove God?
It doesn't. It merely shows an example of where someone's subjective personal experience is taken to be true, by a doctor no less.
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  #165  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:43 AM
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I'm talking about a hospital patient with pain that appears to have no origin, as is common with back/spinal pain.
Yeah, my points apply to that as well:


No. While the hospital patient makes that claim, he also has evidence supporting his claim (e.g. a scrape, a broken limb that can be seen on x-ray, etc.). That's not analogous to a gnostic theist who provides no evidence.

Furthermore, and more importantly, the patient isn't making a supernatural and outrageous claim, he's making a mundane one. We're justifiable more cautious when accepting extraordinary claims.

They are not the same thing.
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  #166  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by crazzyass View Post
Bullshit. You're saying nothing can ever be disproved because you have to know everything to say that something doesn't exist.
He's right though... See below

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I'm personally an agnostic atheist, but gnostic atheists make the argument that God is logically inconsistent (which it is in our universe) and can therefore be said to not exist. This is pretty strong.
How is God as I defined Him here inconsistent?
God is infinite, so first God was potentially infinite and then with his will he actualized and became infinite, we are living in finite space and this is why we call the gods God.
In fact, I think this definition resolves an interesting paradox of Nietzsche's: "If there were gods, then how could I stand not to be a god? Hence there are no gods."

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However, if you consider God being logically impossible and that our universe is the only one, then gnostic atheism is correct.
Unless you have inappropriate logic or have not used the God I defined above.

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This is considered quantum mysticism, as I understand it. It's not very scientific.
Quantum physics states that (at the quantum level under certain conditions) anything can happen for any reason or for no reason.

This should be somewhat discomforting because it subtly reveals that reality is infinite in the scale through which it behaves; you may think the universe is quantum foam on the micro level and a huge expanse of space with some galaxies and gas in the middle at the macro level (although it's mostly dark energy and dark matter if you believe the mainstream) but the distances involved expand out further in other dimensions which are capable of being navigated by higher forms of consciousness which are all still part of the same finite manifestation of God (I'm not very clear on how much lower it goes). As you get higher, some consciousness fields are infinite in actuality because of their unity with so much of the god-consciousness that is the creator and is the creation.


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Wise sayings prove nothing.
Believing is seeing, so actually wise sayings can prove a lot to the believer just as much as clever sayings can relieve, entertain, and raise up a mood, a conversation, a relationship, or even an entire lifetime. Life demands surrender and very often it demands belief. Go on and follow that advice for a while, 'see for yourself'. Realize that the 'word' of god is very popular amongst mantra-yogis, Jews, and even many atheists, goddammit. When your life is confirming your biases, your life confirms your biases; you can go out and 'see' what you want to believe because you are not constrained by believing what you have 'seen'. It's too bad our lifestyles don't allow for the variety we need to develop our intellects and to recognize this important pattern which has been called the law of attraction.

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And what's your point? Anecdotes aren't evidence. It's a logical fallacy to assume it is
You would think otherwise if it was your own consciousness experiencing something--I know simply because I'm not a solipsist and am aware that our consciousness is all part of a giant pool or 'sea of light'. The alternative would be to go insane, though there have been many mystics who were at first highly reluctant; I think Tolle is one.

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  #167  
Old 06-17-2012, 02:55 AM
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Yeah, my points apply to that as well:


No. While the hospital patient makes that claim, he also has evidence supporting his claim (e.g. a scrape, a broken limb that can be seen on x-ray, etc.). That's not analogous to a gnostic theist who provides no evidence.

Furthermore, and more importantly, the patient isn't making a supernatural and outrageous claim, he's making a mundane one. We're justifiable more cautious when accepting extraordinary claims.

They are not the same thing.
The existence of God is pretty mundane knowledge to the majority of the world, so when someone says they've had an experience of the divine it isn't outrageous at all.
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  #168  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:02 AM
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Furthermore, and more importantly, the patient isn't making a supernatural and outrageous claim, he's making a mundane one. We're justifiable more cautious when accepting extraordinary claims.
Science... forever expanding outward, making the interesting mundane. The placebo effect in all its manifestations is related to the law of attraction and the concepts described in books like Think and Grow Rich that have demonstrably allowed individuals to manifest their desires by attracting them by the notion that believing is seeing.

Believe in something and wait until you see it; all it takes is the ability to convince yourself. Positive hallucinations will lead you to a place that neither of your two brains will want to exit and your servo-mechanism, the machine inside your skull, will be at ease in reality, allowing you to creatively manifest your desires. This has much research behind it and you will find many successful people who swear by such principles.

Last edited by nshanin; 06-17-2012 at 03:06 AM.
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  #169  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:06 AM
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The existence of God is pretty mundane knowledge to the majority of the world, so when someone says they've had an experience of the divine it isn't outrageous at all.
No, it's not. It's a common belief. That doesn't make it mundane (in the sense of not violating the laws of physics, or being a supernatural) nor does it make it knowledge.
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  #170  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:10 AM
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Science... forever expanding outward, making the interesting mundane. The placebo effect in all its manifestations is related to the law of attraction and the concepts described in books like Think and Grow Rich that have demonstrably allowed individuals to manifest their desires by attracting them by the notion that believing is seeing.
The law of attraction is demonstrable pseudo-science horseshit. Stop pretending that the experiments support it. They don't. The literature overwhelmingly refutes that tripe. You're clearly not familiar with it.
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  #171  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:12 AM
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No, it's not. It's a common belief. That doesn't make it mundane (in the sense of not violating the laws of physics, or being a supernatural) nor does it make it knowledge.
The Being in question is what created and upholds the laws of physics and doesn't violate them except under very, very, very special circumstances.
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  #172  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:16 AM
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The Being in question is what created and upholds the laws of physics and doesn't violate them except under very, very, very special circumstances.
That doesn't address a single thing I said, not to mention that it's stated without evidence.
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  #173  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:24 AM
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That doesn't address a single thing I said, not to mention that it's stated without evidence.
Okay, so the point you made is that you find the majority of the world's population outrageous for their beliefs? I know, consensus does not create fact. There is a consensus that dreams contain content, but no proof of that content. However, because of the consensus, someone describing dream content is not outrageous. Thus, it is not outrageous for someone to have an experience of the divine when the consensus is that the divine is real.
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  #174  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:28 AM
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Okay, so the point you made is that you find the majority of the world's population outrageous for their beliefs? I know, consensus does not create fact. There is a consensus that dreams contain content, but no proof of that content. However, because of the consensus, someone describing dream content is not outrageous. Thus, it is not outrageous for someone to have an experience of the divine when the consensus is that the divine is real.
No, the point I made is that consensus in a belief does not make it knowledge, and you claimed it was knowledge, nor does it remove the fact that the thing being claimed is a supernatural being, the creator of existence, which is vastly different than "pain".
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  #175  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:34 AM
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No, the point I made is that consensus in a belief does not make it knowledge, and you claimed it was knowledge, nor does it remove the fact that the thing being claimed is a supernatural being, the creator of existence, which is vastly different than "pain".
I never claimed that a consensus of belief constitutes knowledge, but a consensus of belief does constitute a reference point for one who has a divine experience.
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  #176  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:40 AM
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I never claimed that a consensus of belief constitutes knowledge, but a consensus of belief does constitute a reference point for one who has a divine experience.
You said it was common knowledge, and I explained that it's a belief. My point stands.
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  #177  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:49 AM
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You said it was common knowledge, and I explained that it's a belief. My point stands.
God's existence is common knowledge amongst those who believe.
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  #178  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:52 AM
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God's existence is common knowledge amongst those who believe.
No, that's why it's a belief. They believe, or have faith, in their god, but they are not "gnostics".

Even if they claimed to have knowledge, it would still only be a claim. You'd be right back at the start.
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  #179  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:54 AM
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No, that's why it's a belief. They believe, or have faith, in their god, but they are not "gnostics".

Even if they claimed to have knowledge, it would still only be a claim. You'd be right back at the start.
Just like you can make a claim as to your dream's content.
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  #180  
Old 06-17-2012, 03:56 AM
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Just like you can make a claim as to your dream's content.
Exactly! Anyone can! Hence why it would be foolish to take those claims at face-value when they involve something as huge, and extraordinary as claiming that a supernatural being, the creator of the universe and life as we know it, exists.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with you. You clearly just want the last word to save your ego. You can have it.
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  #181  
Old 06-17-2012, 04:17 PM
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Exactly! Anyone can! Hence why it would be foolish to take those claims at face-value when they involve something as huge, and extraordinary as claiming that a supernatural being, the creator of the universe and life as we know it, exists.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with you. You clearly just want the last word to save your ego. You can have it.
if consciousness exists within the universe, it exists as a wave function that permeates the entire universe. Its representative of the whole...
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  #182  
Old 06-17-2012, 04:37 PM
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I don't hate theists, I only hate stupid people who can't look at the big picture themselves. Instead they believe the books some people wrote over the space of 200 years around 2000 years ago.
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  #183  
Old 06-17-2012, 09:40 PM
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The law of attraction is demonstrable pseudo-science horseshit. Stop pretending that the experiments support it. They don't. The literature overwhelmingly refutes that tripe. You're clearly not familiar with it.
You don't understand the difference between firsthand and secondhand experience. If I was a schizophrenic and you, an expert on the matter, it would not be nice of either of us to say that one or the other is not familiar.

I am interested in real results manifesting in the world; witness the fortunes directly caused by reading Think and Grow Rich and the well-adjusted individuals at the top of business and society; fortunes are attracted by the power of the mind and the whole world attests to this.
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  #184  
Old 06-17-2012, 09:49 PM
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look in the mirror and tell me you dont see an obnoxious person who doesnt respect the beliefs of others.
I do, and he is so damn sexy.
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  #185  
Old 06-17-2012, 09:58 PM
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Exactly! Anyone can! Hence why it would be foolish to take those claims at face-value when they involve something as huge, and extraordinary as claiming that a supernatural being, the creator of the universe and life as we know it, exists.
It doesn't seem extraordinary to most people, so perhaps one who has yet to agree to a fact would experience it and be somewhat comforted and spurred in their conviction though I admit there is often a paucity of teachers.

Maybe if you thought your dreams were more interesting they would become more interesting and you would begin to hold convictions that you couldn't satisfy entirely with logic; eventually you would relate your dreams to others and finding consensus, the feedback loop would continue. Perhaps the same would happen with pain relief, which has been demonstrated thoroughly as a mild example of hypnotic phenomena, for example. The criteria for personal experience is the experiences of people. Have an experience often enough and 'you' will find it hard to deny.
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:12 AM
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I am interested in real results manifesting in the world; witness the fortunes directly caused by reading Think and Grow Rich and the well-adjusted individuals at the top of business and society; fortunes are attracted by the power of the mind and the whole world attests to this.
So is this evidence insignificant to you, Rust? I would argue that the leverage that technology has provided allows expression of mind in a competitive environment (such as capitalism) where those who align expectation with desire can express fully their true natures and thus, truly succeed.

The psychology of success is a great starting point for discovering what has been called the true self.

See also: this summary of some gems from the Bible that SexyBeast so nicely found for us:
"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves" (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).
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  #187  
Old 06-19-2012, 03:15 AM
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Whenever you want to make sense, I'll be happy to respond. I'm not wasting my time decoding your fucking nonsense.
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:22 AM
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So is this evidence insignificant to you, Rust? I would argue that the leverage that technology has provided allows expression of mind in a competitive environment (such as capitalism) where those who align expectation with desire can express fully their true natures and thus, truly succeed.

The psychology of success is a great starting point for discovering what has been called the true self.

See also: this summary of some gems from the Bible that SexyBeast so nicely found for us:
"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves" (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).
The "law" of attraction is bullshit. It's never been substantiated.

But I'm sure you're a successful billionaire, congratulations.
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  #189  
Old 06-19-2012, 03:24 AM
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This is it; Rust vs. 50 years of research into the self producing results in the business world and more recently, beginning to attract the experiences that people truly desire through the Law of Attraction. Whenever you want to explain what's wrong with Hill's book (let alone his legacy) you can just shut up because the idea of "wishful thinking" as occasionally creating results on coincidence is not based on the real world--well it is to an extent, a wish gets one nowhere but in actual fact it is stunningly easy to ask the universe for things although it requires some initial knowledge, which is precisely where Hill's book began a far-reaching legacy that has many parallels in psychology and frankly, spirituality if we may call the endless process of Attraction such a thing.

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Old 06-19-2012, 03:28 AM
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This is it; Rust vs. 50 years of research into the self producing results in the business world and more recently, beginning to attract the experiences that people truly desire through the Law of Attraction. Whenever you want to explain what's wrong with Hill's book (let alone his legacy) you can just shut up because the idea of "wishful thinking" as occasionally creating results on coincidence is not based on the real world--well it is to an extent, a wish gets one nowhere but in actual fact it is stunningly easy to ask the universe for things.
Provide any piece of evidence and we can talk.

Some guy's book that he used to defraud people with is not evidence.

"If I think real hard I get money." defies every logical and scientific principle ever conceived and observed. If you want to overturn everything we know about physics, chemistry, and biology, you need a lot of evidence to do so. Get crackin'.
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  #191  
Old 06-19-2012, 04:08 AM
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This is it; Rust vs. 50 years of research...
What research? You've provided not a single shred of research in this thread. Giving a book title is as much proof of your ridiculous claims as me finding a book on amazon and giving you the title is a refutation of your claims.

Post the specific information that's supposedly found in the book; show us the scientific studies that are cited within it... Whenever you want to do that, let me know.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:34 AM
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Research, by the way, means something like this:

From Thought to Action: Effects of Process-Versus Outcome-Based Mental Simulations on Performance. Pham and Taylor. 1999.

Which divided students into various groups, with one of them asked to visualize success in an upcoming exam, and think positive thoughts about the exam results:
Outcome simulation exercise. Participants in the outcome
simulation group were instructed to mentally simulate
themselves attaining a high score on the exam —that is,
to visualize themselves having completed the exam and
finding out that they achieved a very high score on the
exam. They read the following instructions:

In this exercise, you will be asked to visualize yourself
getting a high grade on your Psychology midterm and
imagine how you would feel. It is very important that you
see yourself actually getting a high grade on the Psychol-
ogy midterm and have that picture in your mind.

That group got worse grades than those who didn't focus on the results or thinking positive, but instead focused on the process of studying or didn't focus on anything at all:

As shown in Table 3, process simulation participants
scored on average 3.5 percentage points higher on the
exam (M= 78.94) than participants whodid not simulate
the process of studying for the exam (M = 75.19), F(1,
89) = 2.89, p < .09. A marginally significant main effect
of outcomesimulation was also observed, F(1, 89) = 3.46,
p < .07. Participants who simulated the desired outcome
received on average four points lower on the exam (M=
75.13) than those who did not engage in outcome simu-
lation (M = 79.23). Planned comparisons revealed that
the process-only group scored significantly higher (M =
80.60) than did the outcome-only group (M = 72.57),
t(89) = 2.52, p < .01, as predicted
.
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  #193  
Old 06-19-2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Rust View Post
Research, by the way, means something like this:

From Thought to Action: Effects of Process-Versus Outcome-Based Mental Simulations on Performance. Pham and Taylor. 1999.

Which divided students into various groups, with one of them asked to visualize success in an upcoming exam, and think positive thoughts about the exam results:
Outcome simulation exercise. Participants in the outcome
simulation group were instructed to mentally simulate
themselves attaining a high score on the exam —that is,
to visualize themselves having completed the exam and
finding out that they achieved a very high score on the
exam. They read the following instructions:

In this exercise, you will be asked to visualize yourself
getting a high grade on your Psychology midterm and
imagine how you would feel. It is very important that you
see yourself actually getting a high grade on the Psychol-
ogy midterm and have that picture in your mind.

That group got worse grades than those who didn't focus on the results or thinking positive, but instead focused on the process of studying or didn't focus on anything at all:

As shown in Table 3, process simulation participants
scored on average 3.5 percentage points higher on the
exam (M= 78.94) than participants whodid not simulate
the process of studying for the exam (M = 75.19), F(1,
89) = 2.89, p < .09. A marginally significant main effect
of outcomesimulation was also observed, F(1, 89) = 3.46,
p < .07. Participants who simulated the desired outcome
received on average four points lower on the exam (M=
75.13) than those who did not engage in outcome simu-
lation (M = 79.23). Planned comparisons revealed that
the process-only group scored significantly higher (M =
80.60) than did the outcome-only group (M = 72.57),
t(89) = 2.52, p < .01, as predicted
.
This study makes the assumption that everyone is equally skilled, and dare I say qualified, for their thoughts to become manifest in reality. Can you imagine if everyone had the ability to manifest their thoughts? It would be total chaos and anarchy. Aside from that, it is a little bit preposterous to assume that positive thinking in place of studying for the exam would yield better results than studying for the exam.

A better study would entail two groups of equally skilled basketball players shooting free-throws, with one group visualizing a successful basket and the other group doing no visualization at all. This is another study that uses athletics instead of knowledge gathering: http://books.google.com/books?id=C9f...Mental&f=false

Last edited by TheSexyBeast821; 06-19-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:38 PM
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Yeah, clearly you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

First of all, it makes no such assumption. That's why students were randomly assigned to the groups; meaning that "those who are more skilled/qualified" would have the same probability of landing in either of the groups.

Second of all, this wasn't positive thinking in place of studying. They could still study. They just had to have that brief positive thinking/visualization session. What they did with 99.999999% of their time was their business, They could study to their hearts content.

Third of all, according to the law of attraction, positive thinking alone should produce good results.
---

As for your source; how the hell is that a "better study" if no study is even cited in that text (aside from vaguely saying "Russian scientists studied"). Because it supports your nonsense? As soon as it supports your nonsense it's a good study, regardless of whether you know the details of the study?

Not to mention that "mental training" does not equal the law of attraction. Nobody has denied the positive effects of mental training. We've questioned the claim that thinking positively will make positive results come about (or "like attracts like").

Last edited by Rust; 06-19-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rust View Post
Yeah, clearly you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

First of all, it makes no such assumption. That's why students were randomly assigned to the groups; meaning that "those who are more skilled/qualified" would have the same probability of landing in either of the groups.

Second of all, this wasn't positive thinking in place of studying. They could still study. They just had to have that brief positive thinking/visualization session. What they did with 99.999999% of their time was their business, They could study to their hearts content.

Third of all, according to the law of attraction, positive thinking alone should produce good results.
---

As for your source; how the hell is that a "better study" if no study is even cited in that text (aside from vaguely saying "Russian scientists studied"). Because it supports your nonsense? As soon as it supports your nonsense it's a good study, regardless of whether you know the details of the study?

Not to mention that "mental training" does not equal the law of attraction. Nobody has denied the positive effects of mental training. We've questioned the claim that thinking positively will make positive results come about (or "like attracts like").
You still didn't address the issue of whether or not everyone is equally qualified to use the law of attraction. What if the law requires one to be initiated before its power can be used? What if none or very few of the psychology students in your study had been initiated?
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:12 PM
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Yes, I did, that's the first point in my post. Pay attention. Differences in population are controlled by random assignment:

First of all, it makes no such assumption. That's why students were randomly assigned to the groups; meaning that "those who are more skilled/qualified" would have the same probability of landing in either of the groups.

If there where such a thing as being more qualified//skilled at using the law of attraction (which the law of attraction doesn't claim by the way; that's you making shit up to protect it), then those with a higher qualification/ability would have an equal chance of landing any of the groups.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Rust View Post
Yes, I did, that's the first point in my post. Pay attention. Differences in population are controlled by random assignment:

First of all, it makes no such assumption. That's why students were randomly assigned to the groups; meaning that "those who are more skilled/qualified" would have the same probability of landing in either of the groups.

If there where such a thing as being more qualified//skilled at using the law of attraction (which the law of attraction doesn't claim by the way; that's you making shit up to protect it), then those with a higher qualification/ability would have an equal chance of landing any of the groups.
The law of attraction was supposedly discovered and used by ancient masters which means those that used it were well versed in mysticism. The modern day version, while having roots in ancient mysticism, seems to be little more than pop psychology attempting to get people to think more positively and be more optimistic.

I highly doubt many if any of the psychology students in your study had the mystical knowledge to utilize the real law of attraction.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:25 PM
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I highly doubt many if any of the psychology students in your study had the mystical knowledge to utilize the real law of attraction.
And they don't need to. That's not a requirement for the law of attraction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_attraction

Moreover, you can tell you're full of shit by the fact that you were willing to accept the results of the unnamed study alluded to in that book you linked to, where athletes wouldn't be "masters of this mystical knowledge" either. Aren't you even a little ashamed of being this intellectually dishonest?

Last edited by Rust; 06-19-2012 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:38 PM
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And they don't need to. That's not a requirement for the law of attraction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_attraction

Moreover, you can tell you're full of shit by the fact that you were willing to accept the results of the unnamed study alluded to in that book you linked to, where athletes wouldn't be "masters of this mystical knowledge" either. Aren't you even a little ashamed of being this intellectually dishonest?
Like I said above, the modern law of attraction is little more than pop psychology to get people to think positively and optimistically. As for my "intellectual dishonesty", you already showed how mental training via visualization is different from the law of attraction type visualizations, so my point was rendered moot. I'm simply going to agree with you that mentally visualizing athletic success could have its roots in training muscle memory and proper athletic form rather than it being as simple as their positive thinking causing positive results.

The real law of attraction has mysticism written all over it, and one little facet of that mysticism is impotent without corresponding concepts.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:42 PM
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Like I said above, the modern law of attraction is little more than pop psychology to get people to think positively and optimistically.
...
The real law of attraction has mysticism written all over it, and one little facet of that mysticism is impotent without corresponding concepts.
You've yet to show how the "real law of attraction" is any different, let alone as different as you claim it is. Moreover importantly, we ARE dealing with the "modern law of attraction [which is] pop psychology". We were replying to nshanin's post, who's posting precisely that: a pop psychology text book on self-improvement.

Quote:
As for my "intellectual dishonesty", you already showed how mental training via visualization is different from the law of attraction type visualizations, so my point was rendered moot.
Your "evidence" was rendered moot, yes, but the fact that you were willing to ignore the fact that the athletes wouldn't have the "knowledge of mysticism" either, before you realized it was moot, shows you're picking and choosing when to bring up that criticism; you only conveniently bring it up to save your superstitions. You're full of shit.

Last edited by Rust; 06-19-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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