A Secret History of Medicine: Nazi War Crimes

[testerman]

Originally Posted by Sopio

I don't think anyone has a right to infringe upon the rights of the Jews, including the right to not be oppressed and persecuted by hateful bigots like JFLC.

may i ask, asshole, who it is that you are claiming are trying to oppress the chosen people?

[Sopio]

Settle down there, Adolf. Are you angry that I'm on to your little game?

"I've been found out."

[testerman]

let's see if sopio keeps dodging my question.....

[testerman]

Originally Posted by Sopio

Settle down there, Adolf. Are you angry that I'm on to your little game?

"I've been found out."

what little game?

[Sopio]

What question, you insufferable anti-semite?

[testerman]

Originally Posted by Sopio

What question, you insufferable anti-semite?

the one you didnt answer. you can read cant you?

[testerman]

another pc fool , with his platitudes anf niceities and pc, but when someone asks him som real questipns, the circuits go haywire.

[testerman]

do you believe in freedom of thought, you dimwit? that was the question.

[testerman]

whered you run off to? i'll pm you to get my answer

[testerman]

the little faggot ran away. off to report me to the thought police.

[testerman]

one of the more pathetic displays Ive seen on a message board..

[Struwwelpeter]

Originally Posted by Sopio

The roles of these men are not disputed. Many of them are from as recently as the Nineteenth Century and we know very well what roles all of them played in the development of these instruments. While there were of course transverse flutes existing before him, Boehm is the inventor of the modern flute that we are familiar with today. The other important innovative flute maker of that century was Friedrich Meyer (a not particularly Latino name) but his flutes over the succeeding decades were replaced by the Boehm flute. If you mean that the development of these instruments was a complex process, then you are correct, but that is beside the point. Yes, these instruments were not invented out of thin air and are evolved from more primitive predecessors, but we can say more or less where their modern forms came from as they are mostly fairly recent inventions just as we can say that, though the violin is an evolution of Medieval fiddles, the violin is an Italian development.

The flute has existed for tens of thousands of years. Boehm did not invent it; he merely made some superficial customizations of the same very primitive instrument.

You will recall that I said that after the industrial revolution all human cultures previously existing were officially replaced by Techno culture, the cheap essence of industrialism. Boehm's flute is not even German; it is a Techno machine manufactured in factories that stand in stark contrast to the values of Romanticism and Classicism.

Still, it's no big deal, because Boehm did not invent the flute any more so than Louis Sphor invented the violin with his chin rest, a superficial accessory akin to a mouthguard or a recoil pad.

You have claimed that all the instruments of the orchestra are Latino so I would like to see some citations on your part. The instruments I gave were all of German, French or Flemish invention. Excepting the two French examples, I would say that the wind instruments of the orchestra cannot be called Latino.

Trying to pin down the origins of these instruments is a waste of time because if I say that one instrument is Italian, you say that it is merely derived from Middle Eastern sources, and you are largely correct. And I say that your German instruments are also derived from Middle Eastern sources -- I am largely correct.

The only thing that can be gathered by this is that the vast majority of the instruments of this sort of music are derived from sources that originate outside of what is now known as Germany.

There are non-industrial wind instruments unique to Italy, and, like the Industrialist Boehm's flute, they are only a small part of orchestra. The vast, overwhelming majority of these sounds are created by tools shaped by the Latin-speaking people of Europe.

Yes, having strings is a critical aspect of the string instrument, but having four strings rather than sixteen strings is a critical aspect of the violin. The chin rest, just one example, is not just an accessory (whatever that is supposed to mean). Primarily it facilitates technique which affects what is capable of being played, and it does affect the intrinsic sound too by removing the player's head from the instrument so the chin is not directly dampening the vibration of the instrument's body.

There is no consensus as to the effect of the chin rest on the violin's sound, and there are people today who choose to play without them.

The only thing "Latinos" have in common is that they speak languages chiefly derived from Latin. That is not descriptive of Wagner's operas that are in German, which is not a Romance language, and written by a German. There is nothing inherent in musical theater that has anything to do with speaking Romance languages.

It is the Latin organization of musicians using predominately Latin instruments to produce Latin sounds; see my Filipino-Romanticist Jazz example.

"Chinese opera (Chinese: 戏曲/戲曲; Pinyin: xìqǔ) is a popular form of drama and musical theatre in China with roots going back as far as the third century CE."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Opera

What exactly is the "Techno culture" and how does it account for the "arrival" of opera in China. The art form is something organic to China so I am not sure what you mean by arrival, and I do not see what is in any way "Techno" about it.

That is not Chinese Opera. When you referred to Opera in China, I assumed that you were referring to the relatively recent advent of Chinese (among other Asians) conducting European Operas, something that occurred as the knowledge of this form of music and it's instruments could be transported to that region of the world during the late 1800s and early 1900s. That is Techno culture.

But this "Chinese Opera" here is not really "Opera" at all. It is Xiqu.

[testerman]

Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey

The flute has existed for tens of thousands of years. Boehm did not invent it; he merely made some superficial customizations of the same very primitive instrument.

You will recall that I said that after the industrial revolution all human cultures previously existing were officially replaced by Techno culture, the cheap essence of industrialism. Boehm's flute is not even German; it is a Techno machine manufactured in factories that stand in stark contrast to the values of Romanticism and Classicism.

Still, it's no big deal, because Boehm did not invent the flute any more so than Louis Sphor invented the violin with his chin rest, a superficial accessory akin to a mouthguard or a recoil pad.



Trying to pin down the origins of these instruments is a waste of time because if I say that one instrument is Italian, you say that it is merely derived from Middle Eastern sources, and you are largely correct. And I say that your German instruments are also derived from Middle Eastern sources -- I am largely correct.

The only thing that can be gathered by this is that the vast majority of the instruments of this sort of music are derived from sources that originate outside of what is now known as Germany.

There are non-industrial wind instruments unique to Italy, and, like the Industrialist Boehm's flute, they are only a small part of orchestra. The vast, overwhelming majority of these sounds are created by tools shaped by the Latin-speaking people of Europe.



There is no consensus as to the effect of the chin rest on the violin's sound, and there are people today who choose to play without them.



It is the Latin organization of musicians using predominately Latin instruments to produce Latin sounds; see my Filipino-Romanticist Jazz example.



That is not Chinese Opera. When you referred to Opera in China, I assumed that you were referring to the relatively recent advent of Chinese (among other Asians) conducting European Operas, something that occurred as the knowledge of this form of music and it's instruments could be transported to that region of the world during the late 1800s and early 1900s. That is Techno culture.

But this "Chinese Opera" here is not really "Opera" at all. It is Xiqu.

I think i scared him off zoklet forever

[Darkhunter]

Lol Sopio deleted his posts. What a faggot

[Auschwitz Nazi Disneyland]

I guess he actually was retarded. Wow.

[Sopio]

Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey

The flute has existed for tens of thousands of years. Boehm did not invent it; he merely made some superficial customizations of the same very primitive instrument.

You will recall that I said that after the industrial revolution all human cultures previously existing were officially replaced by Techno culture, the cheap essence of industrialism. Boehm's flute is not even German; it is a Techno machine manufactured in factories that stand in stark contrast to the values of Romanticism and Classicism.

Still, it's no big deal, because Boehm did not invent the flute any more so than Louis Sphor invented the violin with his chin rest, a superficial accessory akin to a mouthguard or a recoil pad.

I am not a black man for very superficial reasons, but I am not a black man. Similarly the transverse flutes of Bach's day are different instruments, be it for--it might be said--superficial reasons, from the Boehm flute, though we play the same music with both. We play Bach's sonatas from viola da gamba (which has fallen out of common usage outside the reconstructionist period performance scene) on violoncello today but they are still different instruments. When I named the chin rest as one of many possible examples, I was not claiming that Louis Spohr invented the modern violin, but you are still hung up on it several posts later. You continue to misunderstand what I said, which is no surprise because you do not know anything about musical instruments or music in general. The chin rest is a single improvement to the violin, but it is through an accretion of similarly "insignificant" improvement that new and distinct instruments evolve or are invented. What is the difference between a cello and the viola da gamba? To the cello add a couple more strings, add some frets to the fingerboard, smooth out the shape of the body and it basically is a viola da gamba.

To see an example of the difference between the sort of violin played in the Eighteenth Century and the modern violin, listen to these two recordings of the Bach Chaconne. The first is played on a period violin and the second (and far superior) is on a violin with a Twentieth Century set up. These are not generally considered distinct instruments but their is a world of difference dividing the two.

This is by far the fastest CHACONNE i've ever heared - Part I - YouTube

This is by far the fastest CHACONNE i've ever heared - Part I - YouTube
Video: click to display

Bach, Chaconne. Igor Bezrodny (violin) - YouTube

Bach, Chaconne. Igor Bezrodny (violin) - YouTube
Video: click to display

I do not know where your insistence on calling everything Latino springs from: presumably some particularly vicious strain of Latino supremacism. That is the only explanation I can come to for why you insist on something so absurd. The modern European fiddle instruments come out of the Byzantine Empire, which is the Greek world, not the Latin world, and also from the Arabs. These people are not in any way Latino, as they do not speak Latin as a primary language, if at all. Moreover, the Chinese have developed their own fiddle instruments independently of the Europeans, although it is possible that the Chinese fiddles come from the same Asian ancestry as the European fiddles.

What does this matter? Very little. So what if the violin comes from an old Byzantine lyre? Modern English can surely be said to descend from cave scribbles and troglodyte babble, but Modern English is something different and with different capabilities.

Trying to pin down the origins of these instruments is a waste of time because if I say that one instrument is Italian, you say that it is merely derived from Middle Eastern sources, and you are largely correct. And I say that your German instruments are also derived from Middle Eastern sources -- I am largely correct.

The difference is that for the most part we can name specific inventors of the modern instruments we use today whereas you have insisted, without factual evidence, that all instruments of the orchestra are innately and wholly Latino. It can be shown that the modern horn is a German development. It has ancestry to other types of horn instruments dating back to before written history. This does not change the facts surrounding the development of the modern horn, nor does it provide any other argument that the horn is Latino since the ancient horn cannot be pinned down to the Latin world and indeed predates the Latin language.

In actuality, all instruments can be dated to before history since they are all based on principles of physics--vibrating membranes, vibrating strings etc.--which were there before humans were there to discover them. This can be seen even between modern instruments. A trombone, though it looks much dissimilar, is in reality an evolution of the trumpet. Nevertheless, If you walked into a symphony audition with a tenor trombone to compete for a trumpet opening, insisting that the they are both the same instruments because they are both of the same noble Latino pedigree, you would be thrown out and ridiculed, and if not, you would still not be able to practically compete due to technical differences between the two instruments.

There are non-industrial wind instruments unique to Italy

Do you care to name some? What place do they have in the modern orchestra?

There is no consensus as to the effect of the chin rest on the violin's sound, and there are people today who choose to play without them.

What you mean is that there are people who have not come to the obvious conclusion only because they never considered the question. It is a physical fact that dampening a resonant body dampens the sound it produces. Or perhaps you mean that you are unable to find a study done on the question--not that this is any indication that such a study does not exist. If you really need a study done to tell you something like this, you need only seek out an uncreative graduate student.

This is not an entirely simple matter because of the great differences across individual instruments which vary in a way not unlike the variation among individual humans. One chin rest might improve the sound of one instrument but worsen the sound of another. Neither is it limited to the effect of the chin rest itself on the sound. That is actually a lesser consideration. By allowing a superior posture, the player is able to draw a greater sound. You may think of the chin rest as a mere accessory attached to the instrument like an air freshener to a car mirror, but if it has a tangible effect on the sound that is produced, then in my view, and to most people, it is important. At any rate, it is more than superficial. Yes, there are still violinists who choose to forgo a chin rest for a few reasons, and for similar reasons their are cellists who (unwisely) forgo a spike. These reasons, especially in the latter case, usually have little to do with improving sound and more to do with historical "authenticity." However, these people make up an insignificant minority and what they do does not detract in any way from the new way of playing.

It is the Latin organization of musicians using predominately Latin instruments to produce Latin sounds; see my Filipino-Romanticist Jazz example.

I am not a purist. No one culture has a monopoly on anything. You should agree with this more strongly than I can since you say that all cultures are worthless. Jazz in particular is from its inception a mongrelized art form and there is nothing any more ridiculous about Filipino romanticists making jazz music than any other kind of jazz music that has existed. A foreign culture taking something like music from another can often improve upon it over its originators. To give one related example, Scott Joplin and other Negroes created ragtime music. White pianists like Zez Confrey, who were performers of ragtime, from ragtime created a new genre of piano music called novelty piano which was more virtuosic and decidedly whiter.

But this "Chinese Opera" here is not really "Opera" at all. It is Xiqu.

Xiqu is indeed opera, albeit bad opera. It is theatrical music and fundamentally the same as Italian opera. Everything separating the two is superficial as you would say.

[Sopio]

Originally Posted by testerman

another pc fool , with his platitudes anf niceities and pc, but when someone asks him som real questipns, the circuits go haywire.

Some real questions... right. Regarding your PM, I answered the same question when you asked in this thread with JFLC as the subject. If you cannot answer the question replacing JFLC with yourself by analogy, then I don't know what answer I could give you that you are capable of understanding.

Originally Posted by testerman

I think i scared him off zoklet forever

Well, I am certainly scared for the fate of today's youth, if you are any indication.

[Sopio]

Originally Posted by Darkhunter

Lol Sopio deleted his posts. What a faggot

I have not deleted any posts, which any moderator can confirm.

Originally Posted by Auschwitz Nazi Disneyland

I guess he actually was retarded. Wow.

You Nazis are obsessed.

[Struwwelpeter]

Originally Posted by Sopio

I am not a black man for very superficial reasons, but I am not a black man. Similarly the transverse flutes of Bach's day are different instruments, be it for--it might be said--superficial reasons, from the Boehm flute, though we play the same music with both. We play Bach's sonatas from viola da gamba (which has fallen out of common usage outside the reconstructionist period performance scene) on violoncello today but they are still different instruments. When I named the chin rest as one of many possible examples, I was not claiming that Louis Spohr invented the modern violin, but you are still hung up on it several posts later. You continue to misunderstand what I said, which is no surprise because you do not know anything about musical instruments or music in general. The chin rest is a single improvement to the violin, but it is through an accretion of similarly "insignificant" improvement that new and distinct instruments evolve or are invented. What is the difference between a cello and the viola da gamba? To the cello add a couple more strings, add some frets to the fingerboard, smooth out the shape of the body and it basically is a viola da gamba.

I would need to see photographic evidence proving that you are not a Black male in order for me to believe your claim that you are not Black. The differences between a Black and a White would not be very superficial. There is not much difference between Boehm's flute and the transverse flute (a true, pre-industrial Latin instrument) in that they work on the same principles and produce similar sounds. The only significant difference between the transverse flute and Boehm's flute are the keys; which are not German at all but the work of one industrialist man, and characteristic not of German culture but of industrialism, and standing in stark contrast to the values of Romanticism (or Classicism), being industrial garbage that can only be economically produced in modern factories.

But, again, none of this is particularly relevant, because Boehm did not invent the flute.


I am not caught up on anything; it is you who is caught up over things, having made several mistaken claims to German equality by listing non-musical instruments and inventors who are not even German as evidence of the imagined German contributions to art.

To see an example of the difference between the sort of violin played in the Eighteenth Century and the modern violin, listen to these two recordings of the Bach Chaconne. The first is played on a period violin and the second (and far superior) is on a violin with a Twentieth Century set up. These are not generally considered distinct instruments but their is a world of difference dividing the two.

This is by far the fastest CHACONNE i've ever heared - Part I - YouTube
Bach, Chaconne. Igor Bezrodny (violin) - YouTube

There is a world of difference between the two because you have posted two different videos, one in which music is being played in a deliberately extreme fashion, as clearly noted in the title. I could post a video of two different guitar players using identical setups playing music differently for no reason other than they play music differently.

But none of this is of any relevance, because the chin rest is not a musical instrument and has no significant bearing on musical production.

I do not know where your insistence on calling everything Latino springs from: presumably some particularly vicious strain of Latino supremacism.

You have correctly acknowledged that I view all culture as worthless; and in fact I strongly detest human culture, so I don't see why you believe that I think that Latinos are superior, especially when I clearly believe that they are far more accomplished, culturally, than non-Latinos. Having said that, I do not harbor any particular prejudices against Latinos. Nor do I harbor any against Germans.

The only thing I can gather from this is that you just feel threatened now that the moat of German supremacism that you have constructed in your mind has been crossed.

That is the only explanation I can come to for why you insist on something so absurd. The modern European fiddle instruments come out of the Byzantine Empire, which is the Greek world, not the Latin world, and also from the Arabs. These people are not in any way Latino, as they do not speak Latin as a primary language, if at all. Moreover, the Chinese have developed their own fiddle instruments independently of the Europeans, although it is possible that the Chinese fiddles come from the same Asian ancestry as the European fiddles.

First, Arabs and Greeks are not "Asian" so there is no argument to the fiddle having an "Asian" origin. Arabs and Greeks from the Mediterranean region, and what is referred to as the "middle east", which has always been, both biologically and culturally (and geographically) considered "Europe," not Asia.

Second, the fiddle instruments are indeed derived from these sources, as are just about all of the "German" creations that you have listed previously. I do realize that these people are not Latinos, and if you have gotten the impression that I believe that they are either by my incessant usage of the word "Latino" or my lack of usage of the word "Mediterranean," that is understandable. The fact remains: this practice, these instruments, they are derived from sources far removed from what is known as Germanic Europe, and the people known as Germanic Europeans did not develop or contribute significantly towards their development.

What does this matter? Very little. So what if the violin comes from an old Byzantine lyre?

It means that it is not descended from the culture that you refer to as "Germanic."

The difference is that for the most part we can name specific inventors of the modern instruments we use today whereas you have insisted, without factual evidence, that all instruments of the orchestra are innately and wholly Latino. It can be shown that the modern horn is a German development. It has ancestry to other types of horn instruments dating back to before written history. This does not change the facts surrounding the development of the modern horn, nor does it provide any other argument that the horn is Latino since the ancient horn cannot be pinned down to the Latin world and indeed predates the Latin language.

It would not matter if the modern horn could be shown to be German (not that it can) because it is not a traditional European instrument and has nothing whatever to do with Opera. Modern horns are part of Techno culture, having been created by and only being possible to economically manufacture by industrialist factories. They are a trend away from true Opera, away from true European culture, away from Romanticism and away from Classicism, and towards the very things that the likes of Richard Wagner so incompetently argued against.

In actuality, all instruments can be dated to before history since they are all based on principles of physics--vibrating membranes, vibrating strings etc.--which were there before humans were there to discover them. This can be seen even between modern instruments. A trombone, though it looks much dissimilar, is in reality an evolution of the trumpet. Nevertheless, If you walked into a symphony audition with a tenor trombone to compete for a trumpet opening, insisting that the they are both the same instruments because they are both of the same noble Latino pedigree, you would be thrown out and ridiculed, and if not, you would still not be able to practically compete due to technical differences between the two instruments.

A garbage rationalization. Opera is Latino, it's instruments are Latino, it's system so thoroughly Latino. You can't rationalize your way out of that one.

Do you care to name some? What place do they have in the modern orchestra?

I don't care to talk about modern orchestra, for it is not Opera, but we have already discussed the Latin transverse flute.

What you mean is that there are people who have not come to the obvious conclusion only because they never considered the question. It is a physical fact that dampening a resonant body dampens the sound it produces. Or perhaps you mean that you are unable to find a study done on the question--not that this is any indication that such a study does not exist. If you really need a study done to tell you something like this, you need only seek out an uncreative graduate student.

It does not matter if sound can be dampened.

This is not an entirely simple matter because of the great differences across individual instruments which vary in a way not unlike the variation among individual humans. One chin rest might improve the sound of one instrument but worsen the sound of another. Neither is it limited to the effect of the chin rest itself on the sound. That is actually a lesser consideration. By allowing a superior posture, the player is able to draw a greater sound. You may think of the chin rest as a mere accessory attached to the instrument like an air freshener to a car mirror, but if it has a tangible effect on the sound that is produced, then in my view, and to most people, it is important. At any rate, it is more than superficial. Yes, there are still violinists who choose to forgo a chin rest for a few reasons, and for similar reasons their are cellists who (unwisely) forgo a spike. These reasons, especially in the latter case, usually have little to do with improving sound and more to do with historical "authenticity." However, these people make up an insignificant minority and what they do does not detract in any way from the new way of playing.

This is not true.

I am not a purist. No one culture has a monopoly on anything. You should agree with this more strongly than I can since you say that all cultures are worthless. Jazz in particular is from its inception a mongrelized art form and there is nothing any more ridiculous about Filipino romanticists making jazz music than any other kind of jazz music that has existed. A foreign culture taking something like music from another can often improve upon it over its originators. To give one related example, Scott Joplin and other Negroes created ragtime music. White pianists like Zez Confrey, who were performers of ragtime, from ragtime created a new genre of piano music called novelty piano which was more virtuosic and decidedly whiter.

I see no reason why I would agree with your German Communism, simply because I believe that all cultures are worthless and undesirable. If you want to say Jazz is mongrel, alright, make it Filipino-Romanticist Native American music.

Xiqu is indeed opera, albeit bad opera. It is theatrical music and fundamentally the same as Italian opera. Everything separating the two is superficial as you would say.

Xiqu is not Opera. Xiqu does not use Latino instruments or Latino organization, both of which define Opera. It uses traditional Chinese instruments and Chinese organization, thus not even remotely resembling Opera, and now you're trying to defend this ridiculous accident just as you tried to defend the others. Well, there's no need for you to, because I obviously do not believe that Chinese are Mediterranean, and your foolish attempt to try to refute a point that I never even made by suggesting that Chinese are Mediterranean because they developed "Chinese Opera," the layman's term for Xiqu, which has nothing whatsoever in common with Italian Opera.

[Sopio]

I see you did not address any of my points other than by empty contradiction (i.e. "nuh-uh"). I will only say a few things.

Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey

I am not caught up on anything; it is you who is caught up over things, having made several mistaken claims to German equality by listing non-musical instruments and inventors who are not even German as evidence of the imagined German contributions to art.

Wagner was German. Wagner contributed to art. Looks like a German contribution to art in my eyes.

There is a world of difference between the two because you have posted two different videos, one in which music is being played in a deliberately extreme fashion, as clearly noted in the title. I could post a video of two different guitar players using identical setups playing music differently for no reason other than they play music differently.

They are playing according to different aesthetics but the point was that there is a purely sonic difference. That you would even deny this is telling of your ignorance. It is of course more striking in person, but the difference is still readily apparent in a YouTube quality recording. Here's another period violin video.

Sergiu Luca plays Bach Chaconne (part 1) - YouTube

Sergiu Luca plays Bach Chaconne (part 1) - YouTube
Video: click to display

First, Arabs and Greeks are not "Asian" so there is no argument to the fiddle having an "Asian" origin. Arabs and Greeks from the Mediterranean region, and what is referred to as the "middle east", which has always been, both biologically and culturally (and geographically) considered "Europe," not Asia.

The Middle East is not Europe and is not culturally European either. Do you know what Asia is? Asia was the Latin name for the territory now called Anatolia, Asia Minor or Turkey. This land is still included in the modern definition of Asia. My usage is standard and in line with common practice. I should clarify further that I do not mean that Greece is in Asia, but the Greek-speaking world of the Middle Ages was largely Asian.

There are many problems with your argument, which I know you do not seriously believe. The two most immediate ones are these:

1) You have not shown that all orchestral instruments are Latino.
2) Despite admitting that orchestral instruments are not Latino ("I do realize that these people are not Latinos"), you later insist that the instruments still are Latino ("[opera's] instruments are Latino") and use this as your main support for the contention that opera is Latino ("opera is Latino").

A good project for you would be to demonstrate through historical fact that the horn is a Latino instrument.

I would also like to point out that, ironically, European opera is a modern "Techno" invention, originating at the very end of the 16th Century with Jacopo Peri's Dafne.

[DiStOrTiOn]

faggot niggers like Sopio make me wish Hitler won the war

[Struwwelpeter]

Originally Posted by Sopio

Wagner was German. Wagner contributed to art. Looks like a German contribution to art in my eyes.

Wagner was not a German. There are no Germans, for German culture has not existed for a very long time. Wagner was an industrial man, born and shaped by industry.

Having said that, this is not very relevant, because I never said that no German ever contributed to art.

They are playing according to different aesthetics but the point was that there is a purely sonic difference. That you would even deny this is telling of your ignorance. It is of course more striking in person, but the difference is still readily apparent in a YouTube quality recording. Here's another period violin video.

Sergiu Luca plays Bach Chaconne (part 1) - YouTube

The videos have been recorded by two different cameras under two different environments, by two different players, by two individuals with different styles. You will never be able to post enough YouTube videos to concretely decide whether or not a chin rest is a musical instrument or not; nor will you be able to use the latest in cutting edge technology to make it certain, because people have tried, and it is not certain. Some people have shunned the chin rest, including some of the greatest musicians there ever were.

The Middle East is not Europe and is not culturally European either.

The middle east is indeed Europe and it is culturally European. In fact, it could be said that the middle east, around Palestine, is the true Europe, and that what you refer to as continental Europe is really just a foreign land being occupied by middle eastern people.

You have already admitted this yourself, showing that virtually all of the instruments of Europe are chiefly derived from middle eastern instruments, as well as non-musical instruments. They are derived from the middle east because that part of the world (what you call "Europe") has always been a part of the middle east. The people who live in this region are from the same race of people and share similar cultures and that is why their instruments are similar.

Do you know what Asia is? Asia was the Latin name for the territory now called Anatolia, Asia Minor or Turkey. This land is still included in the modern definition of Asia. My usage is standard and in line with common practice. I should clarify further that I do not mean that Greece is in Asia, but the Greek-speaking world of the Middle Ages was largely Asian.

That definition came about when the Romans did not have a proper understanding of the geography of the Old World. Asia refers to China, Japan, Korea, the southeast Asian countries and far east India. "Europe" stretches from Norway out in to Pakistan.

Those areas are not included in the modern definition of what constitutes "Europe," and that is why Turkey and Asia Minor nations are considered to be European.

1) You have not shown that all orchestral instruments are Latino.

I am not going to bother; if I show that an instrument is Latino you uselessly retort that it is simply Mediterranean.

2) Despite admitting that orchestral instruments are not Latino ("I do realize that these people are not Latinos"), you later insist that the instruments still are Latino ("[opera's] instruments are Latino") and use this as your main support for the contention that opera is Latino ("opera is Latino").

The vast majority of the instruments are Latino; and the organization and system of Opera is wholly Latino, so Opera is Latino.

A good project for you would be to demonstrate through historical fact that the horn is a Latino instrument.

There is no consensus as to where the French (or "natural") horn was invented. If you are claiming that it was a German man who invented the "first French horn," it's of no significance, because that horn is, like the Boehm's flute, an industrial instrument, produced in industrial factories, something that is characteristic of an industrial (and not traditional) culture.

If you want to say that the horns that pre-date the "first French horn" with valves are German, even so, they would only have been created when Germany was under the cosmic tutelage of the Holy Roman Empire.

Still, that is not very relevant, because there is no consensus as to where the horn arrived from.

I would also like to point out that, ironically, European opera is a modern "Techno" invention, originating at the very end of the 16th Century with Jacopo Peri's Dafne.

Techno does not exist in the 16th century. Techno refers to Industrial, which appears in the 19th century. I am aware that Opera is modern per the usual definition of modernity, but when I used that word I was simply referring to industrialist "Opera" and industrialist instruments such as the modern horn and the Boehm flute, which you keep clinging to as evidence of the equality or the significance of German culture, your love of which is the source of your having made so many desperate and elementary mistakes in this thread.

[Sopio]

Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey

Wagner was not a German. There are no Germans, for German culture has not existed for a very long time. Wagner was an industrial man, born and shaped by industry. Having said that, this is not very relevant, because I never said that no German ever contributed to art.

This cannot be true because all cultures are equally worthless and imaginary. Art is cultural and therefore also worthless and imaginary.

The videos have been recorded by two different cameras under two different environments, by two different players, by two individuals with different styles. You will never be able to post enough YouTube videos to concretely decide whether or not a chin rest is a musical instrument or not; nor will you be able to use the latest in cutting edge technology to make it certain, because people have tried, and it is not certain. Some people have shunned the chin rest, including some of the greatest musicians there ever were.

Your obsession with the chin rest is really quite funny, born out of I suppose some irrational hatred of Mr. Spohr. The lack of a chin rest is the least of differences between the two instruments. In fact, Mr. Luca could be using a chin rest on that recording for all I know and would still be able to reasonably call his instrument a period violin. Some of the key differences with the older violin are a lower fingerboard and neck, smaller changes in elevation across stings, shorter neck, as well as other differences in construction both internal and external. The difference in construction results in a softer, warmer sound whereas the modern violin was built with a more penetrating, brighter sound in mind due to primarily practical considerations. There are other common differences to like the use of gut strings (though gut strings were in common use until the middle of the last century and some still use them today) which have a more complex sound than steel strings and very importantly, the bow which was shorter, allowed less dynamic control, did not allow good attack and was overall more difficult to operate. Then there is also the lack of shoulder rest (which is a recent development) and--your favorite--chin rest, which both contribute to a different posture which changes what sound can practically be extracted from the instrument, in addition to whatever intrinsic effects they have on sound.

You have already admitted this yourself, showing that virtually all of the instruments of Europe are chiefly derived from middle eastern instruments, as well as non-musical instruments. They are derived from the middle east because that part of the world (what you call "Europe") has always been a part of the middle east. The people who live in this region are from the same race of people and share similar cultures and that is why their instruments are similar.

I did not say that the fiddle (as this what I was specifically talking about and not instruments in general) was invented by Middle Easterners. Rather it came to Europe through the Middle East. That is not very meaningful, given that the Middle East is the crossroads of the Old World, so even if a Viatnamese man single-handedly and independently invented the violin, it would in all likelihood pass to Europe through the Middle East. Moreover, I have said that by your stands, it is not possible to pin instruments down to one region over another as they all descend from primitive and ancient ancestors. Horns have always existed before they were played on the heads of beast or on the backs of conchs, and they were still developed into instruments by humans from similar sources before the advent of history, and not in any one part of the world.

That definition came about when the Romans did not have a proper understanding of the geography of the Old World. Asia refers to China, Japan, Korea, the southeast Asian countries and far east India. "Europe" stretches from Norway out in to Pakistan.

Those areas are not included in the modern definition of what constitutes "Europe," and that is why Turkey and Asia Minor nations are considered to be European.

Your definition of Europe sounds rather like the old, discredited Nordicist theories that were so popular among the Nazis and the dwellers of the Stormfront message board. I say this because your definition seems to from outdated racialist nonsense or possibly linguistic trends. It should not be necessary to defend that Turkey is not European. Suffice to say, your definition does not belong to reality. Turkey is an Islamic country and has had no brotherhood to Europe on religious grounds in the Middle Ages and beyond. Nor does it belong more to Europe than Iraq or Iran can be called European. Turkey has always been considered a part of Asia for as long as the term has been in use. Your Asia is a false cognate, developed independently in your mind and in no way related to the English word "Asia," which is derived etymologically through the Latin language and through there from the Greeks.

I am not going to bother; if I show that an instrument is Latino you uselessly retort that it is simply Mediterranean.

It cannot even demonstrated that any of these instruments are Mediterranean any more than many of these instruments can be demonstrated to be non-German. Certainly they cannot be Latino by your standards. If it is not from the Latin world, it cannot be called Latino.

There is no consensus as to where the French (or modern) horn was invented. If you are claiming that it was a German man who invented the "first French horn," it's of no significance, because that horn is, like the Boehm's flute, an industrial instrument, produced in industrial factories, something that is characteristic of an industrial (and not traditional) culture.

I do not think the modern horn can be traced back to any one man but it is striking that nearly all the principle innovators of this instrument were German-speaking.

If you want to say that the horns that pre-date the "first French horn" with valves are German, even so, they would only have been created when Germany was under the cosmic tutelage of the Holy Roman Empire.

Even if you want to go back that far, Germany was always a German-speaking land. Latin was merely a formal language and the Germans were not a primarily Latin-speaking people. The English scientist Isaac Newton wrote his major works in Latin but he was not a Latino.

Techno does not exist in the 16th century. Techno refers to Industrial, which appears in the 19th century. I am aware that Opera is modern per the usual definition of modernity, but when I used that word I was simply referring to industrialist "Opera" and industrialist instruments such as the modern horn and the Boehm flute, which you keep clinging to as evidence of the equality or the significance of German culture, your love of which is the source of your having made so many desperate and elementary mistakes in this thread.

Techno opera is very much the same as Baroque opera which is why they are together thought of as one continuous tradition. If modern opera were really so different from Baroque opera, we would have to include Broadway-style musicals, some of which are rather operatic in character, and, since we do not discriminate, Chinese opera as well. One thing you fail to understand is that while the Industrial Revolution, a rather arbitrary designation, is a label applied to the Nineteenth Century, the beginnings of Techno-modernity are much older and are an outgrowth of Enlightenment trends and ideals.

I do not care about Germany qua Germany. I merely recognize that there were German-speaking musicians who wrote great music. You on the other hand have continued to display anti-semitism, Latino supremacism, anti-Germancism, anti-chin-rest-ism and many more hateful sentiments. If there is any bigotry among us, it most certainly does not lie with me.

[Struwwelpeter]

It is becoming quite clear to me that any continued discussion with you about this matter is futile, for you are clearly mad at my having busted the myth of German superiority, or of equality, or even mere significance. The vast majority of your responses to the posts that I make are littered with childish, sarcastic imitations of points that I never made, such as this one:

Originally Posted by Sopio

This cannot be true because all cultures are equally worthless and imaginary. Art is cultural and therefore also worthless and imaginary.

Your obsession with the chin rest is really quite funny, born out of I suppose some irrational hatred of Mr. Spohr. The lack of a chin rest is the least of differences between the two instruments. In fact, Mr. Luca could be using a chin rest on that recording for all I know and would still be able to reasonably call his instrument a period violin. Some of the key differences with the older violin are a lower fingerboard and neck, smaller changes in elevation across stings, shorter neck, as well as other differences in construction both internal and external. The difference in construction results in a softer, warmer sound whereas the modern violin was built with a more penetrating, brighter sound in mind due to primarily practical considerations. There are other common differences to like the use of gut strings (though gut strings were in common use until the middle of the last century and some still use them today) which have a more complex sound than steel strings and very importantly, the bow which was shorter, allowed less dynamic control, did not allow good attack and was overall more difficult to operate. Then there is also the lack of shoulder rest (which is a recent development) and--your favorite--chin rest, which both contribute to a different posture which changes what sound can practically be extracted from the instrument, in addition to whatever intrinsic effects they have on sound.

I am not obsessed with the chin rest and it has not been top priority of mine in this thread as you continue to claim. If anything, it would be Boehm's flute that I have talked about the most, and your repeated instance that I have been obsessing over the chin rest likely stems from your humiliation at having listed it as a musical instrument and proof of German cultural significance.

In fact, I have repeatedly insisted that you stop talking about these sorts of things, such as chin-rests or, in this case, shoulder straps, for they are not relevant.

I did not say that the fiddle (as this what I was specifically talking about and not instruments in general) was invented by Middle Easterners. Rather it came to Europe through the Middle East. That is not very meaningful, given that the Middle East is the crossroads of the Old World, so even if a Viatnamese man single-handedly and independently invented the violin, it would in all likelihood pass to Europe through the Middle East. Moreover, I have said that by your stands, it is not possible to pin instruments down to one region over another as they all descend from primitive and ancient ancestors. Horns have always existed before they were played on the heads of beast or on the backs of conchs, and they were still developed into instruments by humans from similar sources before the advent of history, and not in any one part of the world.

Virtually all "European" instruments are derived from the middle east, including most of the "German" ones that you mention as evidence of German superiority.

Your definition of Europe sounds rather like the old, discredited Nordicist theories that were so popular among the Nazis and the dwellers of the Stormfront message board. I say this because your definition seems to from outdated racialist nonsense or possibly linguistic trends. It should not be necessary to defend that Turkey is not European. Suffice to say, your definition does not belong to reality. Turkey is an Islamic country and has had no brotherhood to Europe on religious grounds in the Middle Ages and beyond. Nor does it belong more to Europe than Iraq or Iran can be called European. Turkey has always been considered a part of Asia for as long as the term has been in use. Your Asia is a false cognate, developed independently in your mind and in no way related to the English word "Asia," which is derived etymologically through the Latin language and through there from the Greeks.

Islam is an Abrahamic religion like Christianity. I need not remind you that Christianity, too, is foreign to what you refer to as continental Europe.

Iraq and Iran are European countries.

Turkey is a member of several European organizations and is considered to be European by mainstream leaders. This is because it is culturally and geographically and historically European, as is Iraq and Iran, and Azerbaijan, which lies to the east of Turkey and shares membership with European nation states in several European organizations.

That is not the definition of Asia that has always existed. As human knowledge about the world has expanded and the countries of east-Asia have been discovered and precisely located the areas that you refer to as "Asian" are no longer considered "Asian." They are European.

It cannot even demonstrated that any of these instruments are Mediterranean any more than many of these instruments can be demonstrated to be non-German. Certainly they cannot be Latino by your standards. If it is not from the Latin world, it cannot be called Latino.

Yes, it can.

I do not think the modern horn can be traced back to any one man but it is striking that nearly all the principle innovators of this instrument were German-speaking.

That does not matter, for the modern horn would not be Italian if it's creators were Italian-speaking, either. It is not a traditional instrument, it is an industrial instrument that has no connection to Opera and is in violation of the values of Romanticism and Classicism, movements in defense of traditional European culture.

Even if you want to go back that far, Germany was always a German-speaking land. Latin was merely a formal language and the Germans were not a primarily Latin-speaking people. The English scientist Isaac Newton wrote his major works in Latin but he was not a Latino.

That does not matter because they were, still, culturally Latino, as I say, under the 'cosmic tutelage' of the Holy Roman Empire, trying to be like Latinos.

Techno opera is very much the same as Baroque opera which is why they are together thought of as one continuous tradition. If modern opera were really so different from Baroque opera, we would have to include Broadway-style musicals, some of which are rather operatic in character, and, since we do not discriminate, Chinese opera as well. One thing you fail to understand is that while the Industrial Revolution, a rather arbitrary designation, is a label applied to the Nineteenth Century, the beginnings of Techno-modernity are much older and are an outgrowth of Enlightenment trends and ideals.

The Enlightenment was a natural consequence and fairly tame; the Industrial Revolution was not natural and was an entirely different monster in it's own right. It appeared rapidly and it's effects were profound, changing the entire world in a very short period of time, and leading to the development of a new culture and way of life that is entirely foreign to all traditional world cultures, including that of Europe.

I do not care about Germany qua Germany. I merely recognize that there were German-speaking musicians who wrote great music. You on the other hand have continued to display anti-semitism, Latino supremacism, anti-Germancism, anti-chin-rest-ism and many more hateful sentiments. If there is any bigotry among us, it most certainly does not lie with me.

I have never once espoused any anti-Semitic ideals in this thread.

[DiStOrTiOn]

waahhh anti-semitism waahhhhh i want free stuff

[sexually vulnerable CPR dummy]

Originally Posted by Sir Cornwell

Yeah?



A good company, Herr Hulk.

AND they invented methadone. Damn Nazis have me hooked.

[DiStOrTiOn]

Originally Posted by sexually vulnerable CPR dummy

AND they invented methadone. Damn Nazis have me hooked.

and amps and methamps and MDMA and LSD and probably a shitload of others


Nazi science was fucking glorious

[benny vader]

Originally Posted by sexually vulnerable CPR dummy

AND they invented methadone. Damn Nazis have me hooked.

fact : THERE'RE NO NAZIS IN 1901.

[DiStOrTiOn]

Originally Posted by benny vader

fact : THERE'RE NO NAZIS IN 1901.

you forgot Nazis invented time travel


but for some stupid nazi reason, instead of going back in time to win the war they instead went back in time to make drugs for the masses

[Sopio]

Originally Posted by Jim "fuck latinos" Carrey

It is becoming quite clear to me that any continued discussion with you about this matter is futile, for you are clearly mad at my having busted the myth of German superiority, or of equality, or even mere significance. The vast majority of your responses to the posts that I make are littered with childish, sarcastic imitations of points that I never made, such as this one:

Well, I don't know how you expect me to take you seriously when you are insisting on such silly things and contradicting clear and obvious facts. I do not think I have obscenely exaggerated anything you have said.

I am not obsessed with the chin rest and it has not been top priority of mine in this thread as you continue to claim. If anything, it would be Boehm's flute that I have talked about the most, and your repeated instance that I have been obsessing over the chin rest likely stems from your humiliation at having listed it as a musical instrument and proof of German cultural significance.

Boehm's flute is a distinct musical instruments from the transverse flutes that preceded it. Otherwise, we would there would be nothing separating it from prehistoric flutes, the flute being one of the most basic instruments. Neither would we be able to distinguish the trombone from the trumpet. The natural conclusion would be that there really are only a few instruments, namely, the wind instrument, the string instrument, and the percussion instrument. These could perhaps be subdivided somewhat further (e.g. distinguishing between percussion instruments that are a single rigid body, like a wood block, and an instrument that has a vibrating membrane like a timpani), but not much further until the differences become very much superficial, much like the differences between Boehm's Technoflute and pre-industrial wooden flutes.

In fact, I have repeatedly insisted that you stop talking about these sorts of things, such as chin-rests or, in this case, shoulder straps, for they are not relevant.

You betray your lack of basic knowledge about musical instruments. Violinists do not use a shoulder strap. It is a shoulder rest. It is a thin pad that is loosely attached to the body of the instrument with rubber grips. It is actually a fairly recent invention, and there have been a good number of famous violinists who do not use them. You can see a picture of one here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_rest

Incidentally, it is said that the cello was sometimes played with a strap a few centuries ago, presumably to facilitate playing while standing. Also, cellos were often played on the shoulder (though surely these were smaller than the full size instruments of today) before being relegated exclusively to the da gamba position.

Virtually all "European" instruments are derived from the middle east, including most of the "German" ones that you mention as evidence of German superiority.

That is not true. Most of these instruments have ancestors which are quite ancient and cannot be traced to the Middle East (which, by the way, you say is in Europe). The horn, to use that example again, is merely a hollow animal horn and was in widespread use before the beginning of history. String instruments like the lyre were developed in ancient Europe, both in the Mediterranean but also independently in Germanic and Celtic territories. The oldest evidence of such an instrument was a piece thought to be a bridge found in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-17537147

The thing that distinguishes fiddle type instruments from plucked instruments like these is that they are bowed. To you, this should be as superficial as the distinction between the violin and an old Byzantine fiddle.

Islam is an Abrahamic religion like Christianity. I need not remind you that Christianity, too, is foreign to what you refer to as continental Europe.

Christianity was not invented by man in any way but by God, who is not the God of any one people exclusively, but the God of the entire universe. Nothing can be more universal than that.

Iraq and Iran are European countries.

Turkey is a member of several European organizations and is considered to be European by mainstream leaders. This is because it is culturally and geographically and historically European, as is Iraq and Iran, and Azerbaijan, which lies to the east of Turkey and shares membership with European nation states in several European organizations.

That is not the definition of Asia that has always existed. As human knowledge about the world has expanded and the countries of east-Asia have been discovered and precisely located the areas that you refer to as "Asian" are no longer considered "Asian." They are European.

Absurd. "Asia" is a human-invented term and it means only what it has been established by humans to mean, and it is a geographic one which has been given by humans fairly definite physical boundaries, unless mountains and rivers can be moved. It is not geographically European. Iraq and Iran have never been considered European countries. Turkey too has always been Asian. Your example of Azerbaijan is not relevant as Azerbaijan is not commonly considered part of Europe, nor is it member of the EU. Furthermore, Azerbaijan lies to the East of nearly all African countries but no one considers Africa as part of Europe. Culture and politics are not measures for discriminating between continents, which are geographic entities. The EU is a political organization and does not define Europe. If France were for some reason excluded from the EU it would still be European, and if Vietnam was admitted into the EU and all other countries left the EU, Vietnam would not be the only country in Europe. Neither does culture define Europe as virtually all industrial countries possess the same industrial culture and modern Iran has nothing anymore in common with Europe than modern Japan.

That does not matter because they were, still, culturally Latino, as I say, under the 'cosmic tutelage' of the Holy Roman Empire, trying to be like Latinos.

The Holy Roman Empire was a government, which is a system of administration. That does not reflect upon the culture of its inhabitants. It is not as if at the end of its existence its former inhabitants suddenly went from eating pasta every night to eating pork sausages.

The Enlightenment was a natural consequence and fairly tame; the Industrial Revolution was not natural and was an entirely different monster in it's own right. It appeared rapidly and it's effects were profound, changing the entire world in a very short period of time, and leading to the development of a new culture and way of life that is entirely foreign to all traditional world cultures, including that of Europe.

The Enlightenment is not one single movement. It is descriptive of a broad period of time. Nevertheless, the defining trends of the Enlightenment seem to be about denying what is human and natural, and we have never recovered from what came out of that time.

I have never once espoused any anti-Semitic ideals in this thread.

I misread one of your earlier posts. My accusation was groundless and I am sorry.

[testerman]

Originally Posted by Sopio

Some real questions... right. Regarding your PM, I answered the same question when you asked in this thread with JFLC as the subject. If you cannot answer the question replacing JFLC with yourself by analogy, then I don't know what answer I could give you that you are capable of understanding.

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY WITH THAT JIBBERISH? Just answer a simple question you piece o shit.

[Sopio]

You are a NAZI and Nazis deserve death.

[testerman]

Originally Posted by DiStOrTiOn

you forgot Nazis invented time travel


but for some stupid nazi reason, instead of going back in time to win the war they instead went back in time to make drugs for the masses

They went back to kill more jews. They killed 60 Million. there aren't that many jews alive but they killed them anyway because they jews say so. and there were 8 million survivors, and they all want reparations from Germany. 40 million deutschmarks each

[testerman]

Originally Posted by Sopio

You are a NAZI and Nazis deserve death.

ok sick puppy, you have some mental problems dont you. Here's me: Answer a simple question. Here's you: I must do and say anything to avoid this difficult question.

[testerman]

Isn't it amuzing how the nazi's are called the bad guys, when they murdered very few out of bloodlust, but rather only did it when it was necessary out of revenge, to keep a people in line, while the bloodthirsty allies murdered and bombed millions of German civilians and POW's on purpose. We considered the commies our allies, the same commies who murdered 80 million WHites. But all you hear to this day is about Hitler the most evil man of all time. THe whole white world today is based on this system of lies. and it explains the mindset of little insignificant turds like sopio. There are millions who think like this. How will this be overcome is the problem at hand. The only real tool to propagate truth today is the internet. You can bet that the jews stay up at night worrying about the internet as something that challenges their mastery over the flow of information, and they would murder anyone if they could, to but limits on it, as demonstrated by Sopio here, who has said:


he not only doesnt believe a person has the right to hold opinions he doesnt agree with, but he downright thinks I need to be killed for it.

[testerman]

Originally Posted by Sopio

You should NOT have the right to hold and speak opinions I disagree with. Further, I believe you need to be killed for it.

Fixt..

[testerman]

Who is the evil one? It's Sopio and his ilk. It's amazing how things never change. This was how it was back in the 40's, and his kind are still the same today. Only diff is, back in the 40's, his kind murdered millions of innocent German civilians.

[Struwwelpeter]

Boehm's flute is a distinct musical instruments from the transverse flutes that preceded it. Otherwise, we would there would be nothing separating it from prehistoric flutes, the flute being one of the most basic instruments. Neither would we be able to distinguish the trombone from the trumpet. The natural conclusion would be that there really are only a few instruments, namely, the wind instrument, the string instrument, and the percussion instrument. These could perhaps be subdivided somewhat further (e.g. distinguishing between percussion instruments that are a single rigid body, like a wood block, and an instrument that has a vibrating membrane like a timpani), but not much further until the differences become very much superficial, much like the differences between Boehm's Technoflute and pre-industrial wooden flutes.

That has nothing to do with the block of text you quoted.

You betray your lack of basic knowledge about musical instruments. Violinists do not use a shoulder strap. It is a shoulder rest. It is a thin pad that is loosely attached to the body of the instrument with rubber grips. It is actually a fairly recent invention, and there have been a good number of famous violinists who do not use them. You can see a picture of one here.

Spoiler: Click to toggle

strap
   [strap] Show IPA ,noun, verb, strapped, strap·ping.
noun
1.
a narrow strip of flexible material, especially leather, as for fastening or holding things together.
2.
a looped band by which an item may be held, pulled, lifted, etc., as a bootstrap or a ring that standing passengers may hold on to in a bus, subway, or the like.
3.
a strop for a razor.
4.
a long, narrow object or piece of something; strip; band.
5.
an ornamental strip or band.

Additionally,

This is more conjecture which has nothing whatever to do with the topic at hand and who's only purpose is to serve as a means by which you can act as if you know what you are talking about, while repeatedly insisting that I do not know what I am talking about, and we all know why you are doing that.

Incidentally, it is said that the cello was sometimes played with a strap a few centuries ago, presumably to facilitate playing while standing. Also, cellos were often played on the shoulder (though surely these were smaller than the full size instruments of today) before being relegated exclusively to the da gamba position.

Again, more conjecture that has nothing to do with anything I have said.

That is not true. Most of these instruments have ancestors which are quite ancient and cannot be traced to the Middle East (which, by the way, you say is in Europe).

This is not true, and conflicts with academic knowledge, and is, therefore, very likely Germanic/Celtic (which, incidentally, have nothing to do with each other) revisionism.

The horn, to use that example again, is merely a hollow animal horn and was in widespread use before the beginning of history.

Those instruments have nothing in common with the metal, shaped horns to which we are referring to. Prehistoric horns, unlike pre-historic flutes, have very little in common with those that have existed for for the past few hundred years.

String instruments like the lyre were developed in ancient Europe, both in the Mediterranean but also independently in Germanic and Celtic territories.

In the Mediterranean.

The oldest evidence of such an instrument was a piece thought to be a bridge found in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-17537147

This nonsense would be expected from sensationalist news agencies. We do not even know if this was a musical instrument; it is merely a fragment of a material. It can't be conclusively dated; it's nothing but pure speculation. We do know, however, that Lyre playing was only widespread in that part of Europe by the middle ages, and it is a Mediterranean influence.

Christianity was not invented by man in any way but by God, who is not the God of any one people exclusively, but the God of the entire universe. Nothing can be more universal than that.

God isn't real. Christianity is an Abrahamic religion, like it's Islamic and Jewish counterparts.

Absurd. "Asia" is a human-invented term and it means only what it has been established by humans to mean, and it is a geographic one which has been given by humans fairly definite physical boundaries, unless mountains and rivers can be moved.

Or, unless humans can actually go out and see that these "physical boundaries" are not really boundaries, which is exactly what happened, which is exactly why these places are no longer referred to as "Asia."

It is not geographically European. Iraq and Iran have never been considered European countries.

More lies. Those places have always been considered European.

Turkey too has always been Asian.

More lies. Turkey is not in Asia.

Your example of Azerbaijan is not relevant as Azerbaijan is not commonly considered part of Europe,

Oh yes it sure is! Most people cannot identify Azerbaijan on a map so it is of no relevance what the common person thinks. Scholars, government leaders, historians and anthropologists on the other hand all agree that Azerbaijan is a part of Europe.

nor is it member of the EU.

EU membership is not a prerequisite for being European. Norway is not a member of the the EU, yet no one believes that Norway is not a part of Europe. Ironically; Norway could be considered far less European than Azerbaijan, seeing as Norway is a relatively newly inhabited part of Europe that has never been of much relevance with regards to European culture or religion.

Furthermore, Azerbaijan lies to the East of nearly all African countries but no one considers Africa as part of Europe.

Wrong, yet again. North and northeast Africa are indeed considered a part of Europe, inhabited by the same cultures practicing the same religion, and the same races of men, having been the birthplace of several European historical events.

Culture and politics are not measures for discriminating between continents, which are geographic entities.

They are indeed, and, geographically, these countries are not a part of Asia.

The EU is a political organization and does not define Europe.

Why then, did you say that Azerbaijan cannot be considered a part of Europe for not being a member of the EU?

Don't remember? You typed it just a few sentences beforehand. Here, I will remind you:

Originally Posted by Sopio

Your example of Azerbaijan is not relevant as Azerbaijan is not commonly considered part of Europe, nor is it member of the EU.

If France were for some reason excluded from the EU it would still be European,

Indeed, and far more European than Germany.

and if Vietnam was admitted into the EU and all other countries left the EU, Vietnam would not be the only country in Europe.

Vietnam would never be admitted to the EU... It is a part of Asia.

Neither does culture define Europe as virtually all industrial countries possess the same industrial culture and modern Iran has nothing anymore in common with Europe than modern Japan.

That's not true. Japan has nothing in common with Europe, culturally. Lifestyles may very well be similar, but the culture is different.

The Holy Roman Empire was a government,

And a culture.

which is a system of administration.

And a culture.

That does not reflect upon the culture of its inhabitants.

Yes it sure does! Which is why, at this time, Germany becomes an extension of Roman culture.

It is not as if at the end of its existence its former inhabitants suddenly went from eating pasta every night to eating pork sausages.

Italians eat pork, too.

The Enlightenment is not one single movement. It is descriptive of a broad period of time.

A broad period of time... Characterized by a movement, one movement... Enlightenment.

Nevertheless, the defining trends of the Enlightenment seem to be about denying what is human and natural, and we have never recovered from what came out of that time.

I don't see what that has to do with anything.

To sum things up:

Opera is Italian. We can argue until the end of the century about the instruments, the majority of which are Italian, and the system and structure will always remain Italian.

Richard Wagner tried to make Germanic music using Italian instruments, structure, culture -- that was a failure. He was a thief with no culture, and we know it was not out of his character to be a bum, because he took money from Jewish people (who he considered alien) when he fell on hard times and then stabbed them all in the back with his anti-Semitism. That is the behavior of a true maggot.

Richard Wagner was a hero, in some respects, for his vegetarianism -- which was an industrialist thing totally alien in Germany, anti-German, and led to his being ostracized by Germany.

Ironically, a great many people who genuinely appreciate Richard Wagner's terrible music are upper-middle class Jewish persons, and he (like many modern-day "Germans") may have had significant Jewish ancestry, and this would all make sense because his music, like most everything characterizing post-industrial German culture, is thoroughly Jewish.