Zoklet.net

Go Back   Zoklet.net > Human Life > This Just In!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-12-2009, 12:42 AM
KeepOnTruckin KeepOnTruckin is offline
Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 12
Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts
Default ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

http://www.abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=7298996

Heres a quote from the article:
"If you have this guy ... that just comes into a classroom, puts a gun to your head and pulls the trigger while you are talking to someone else, well, you know what? There is nothing you could do," he said. "But there were people that survived: the ones that played dead. The ones that, you know, went through a window. The ones that hid behind a desk. The ones that got on the phone and called in 911. When they do a post interview of all these different people, you'll see a, a general commonality: 'I knew I had to live.'"

And remember that cell phone in your pocket? It might be the best weapon you have for survival.

"Get on the cell phone, tell people, barricade these doors, and wait it out," said Stanton. "


I'll be sure to do that when some dude's robbing my house.

Of course the media is biased, so what do we expect
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-12-2009, 12:55 AM
Mullen's Avatar
Mullen Mullen is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fuck the EPA
Thanks: 172
Thanked 371 Times in 267 Posts
Post Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

I don't think there are enough people carrying concealed weapons to defer criminals.

If your were toting a .45 around on your hip, I doubt those little street thugs would value your wallet so highly.

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-12-2009, 01:09 AM
DJ Meaty Cheeks's Avatar
DJ Meaty Cheeks DJ Meaty Cheeks is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Far out
Thanks: 753
Thanked 817 Times in 601 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

It needs to be open carry not concealed carry. You're def not gonna rob a guy with a Kalashnikov in his hand now are you?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-12-2009, 04:13 AM
Fish's Avatar
Fish Fish is offline
☼Administrator☼
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Thanks: 245
Thanked 762 Times in 431 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Sometimes, the problem is that the person with the CC gun doesn't know how to use it, or it gets taken and then used on them. In fact, this has also been known to happen with Mace and tazers. A gun is useless if you can't use it, or if you aren't able to keep it in your possession.

On the flipside, there's also plenty of people that can use guns, and that use them for self-defense without getting themselves killed...

I guess it's a matter of which statistics you choose to interpret.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-12-2009, 09:35 AM
Rocko's Avatar
Rocko Rocko is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bloomington, IN
Thanks: 187
Thanked 376 Times in 226 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to Rocko
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Concealed carry doesn't prevent shit if they don't know the gun is there. What it DOES do is:

-Give the criminal a weapon if he doesn't already have one.

-Allow someone to blow the criminal's brains out.
__________________
"If the wings are traveling faster than the fuselage, it's probably a helicopter and is, therefore, unsafe."
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:04 AM
13579 13579 is offline
Baron
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Washington
Thanks: 1,033
Thanked 124 Times in 91 Posts
Send a message via MSN to 13579
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

As long as the person knows how to use the damn thing, it helps.

Fuck, last thing I'd want is a damn phone when I'm getting shot at.
__________________
&Totse since September 11, 2002
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:20 AM
Struwwelpeter Struwwelpeter is offline
Slightly Grander Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,359
Thanked 3,173 Times in 2,083 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Ilikeeggs, it's really sad they let people like you in the military, women that is, what do you think the poor little Texans were going to do, snipe Charles from hundreds of feet below him through several inches of concrete with a concealed carry size handgun? What has the world come to when people like ilikeggs parents have had children.

Note that I'm not arguing for gun control in this thread.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:24 AM
Syphilis Syphilis is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Deep inside your girlfriend
Thanks: 100
Thanked 652 Times in 352 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Maybe if every single person in America didn't have a gun, there would be less shooting deaths. Just maybe.

I fail to see why an assault rifle is needed for "home defense".
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:35 AM
Syphilis Syphilis is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Deep inside your girlfriend
Thanks: 100
Thanked 652 Times in 352 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by xilikeeggs0 View Post
And there would be more crime. Outlawing guns just takes them away from the people who need them the most. Do you really think criminals are going to turn in their guns if they get banned? No, it's just going to put all of the power into their hands, because they know that they can break into any house they want to without having to worry about getting shot.
It didn't work out too bad for Australia, the UK, every other country.

If there are far less guns, there will be less gun crime. People will have to fight it out with knives like real men.

Only the toughest criminals and organised crime have guns in most countries.

Of course, it would be hard to do this in the US, since there are already so many guns already, so it's kind of a catch-22 situation.

There is a slight truth to needing a weapon in the US, because any dumbass criminal from the ghetto can get their hands on a gun. Self defense. This will remain true until the amount of guns in circulation is cut down, but that won't happen, because at the moment people have the guns to keep themselves safe.

A good start would be for all automatic weapons and anything with a caliber greater than 9mm to be banned. They just aren't needed.

(I've edited this post a few times, so my thoughts are probably a bit jumbled up.)

Last edited by Syphilis; 04-14-2009 at 04:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:46 AM
13579 13579 is offline
Baron
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Washington
Thanks: 1,033
Thanked 124 Times in 91 Posts
Send a message via MSN to 13579
Arrow Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syphilis View Post
It didn't work out too bad for Australia, the UK, every other country.


Actually, it did turn out bad.

Will somebody dig up the statistics where it was shown crime actually went up as a result of these bans?
__________________
&Totse since September 11, 2002
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:50 AM
Syphilis Syphilis is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Deep inside your girlfriend
Thanks: 100
Thanked 652 Times in 352 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13579 View Post


Actually, it did turn out bad.

Will somebody dig up the statistics where it was shown crime actually went up as a result of these bans?
My point is that the US has a far higher incidence of gun related deaths than any other country.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-14-2009, 05:19 AM
Syphilis Syphilis is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Deep inside your girlfriend
Thanks: 100
Thanked 652 Times in 352 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovesawedoffpump View Post
You jews and commies dont actually believe this shit so I'm not really talking to you. But for other people, who need arguments against these assholes. What cities have the highest crime rates? Detroit, Baltimore, and Chicago (which has really strict gun laws).

So, I say lets ban niggers
But they don't have the highest gun related death rates.

Which is the point.

Less guns, less chance of getting shot.

I think I'll stop posting in this thread since it's pretty much impossible to separate Americans from their guns.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-14-2009, 09:33 AM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syphilis View Post
Maybe if every single person in America didn't have a gun, there would be less shooting deaths. Just maybe.

I fail to see why an assault rifle is needed for "home defense".
1. That is an impossibility. Illegal guns are still in countries that have tried to limit them.

2. Even if we were to assume that there were no guns, magically, that means nothing about crime in general. Scotland is the world's most dangerous country (ranked by the UN). Not many firearms. This also means that the very young, very old, weak, outnumbered, and women are at a statistical disadvantage in a confrontation.

3. Do you even know what an assault rifle is? Hardly any Americans have them. They are extremely difficult to acquire.

So, basically you're fixating on guns and shootings and ignoring actual crime rates and violent crime? Wow, okay. Go you.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-14-2009, 09:37 AM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by xilikeeggs0 View Post
But yea, there are some guns that regular people just don't need to have.
Most people probably don't "need" firearms. You probably don't "need" a car. Small arms are Constitutionally protected. Destructive devices and "ordinance" are not protected. Claiming any lack of necessity for firearms shows a misunderstanding of the Second Amendment if you're talking about ABC and the US.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-14-2009, 09:42 AM
bobapanbeers bobapanbeers is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: In the North
Thanks: 51
Thanked 110 Times in 67 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
It needs to be open carry not concealed carry. You're def not gonna rob a guy with a Kalashnikov in his hand now are you?
This might surprise you but I don't see myself going to work or walking down the street with my laptop bag AND an AK74 in my hands...
__________________
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-14-2009, 09:47 AM
Mantikore Mantikore is offline
Grander Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,384 Times in 977 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syphilis View Post
It didn't work out too bad for Australia, the UK, every other country.
i do beg to differ. i find the number of violent crimes here to have remained about the same.

However, i do think the presence of guns at all will not increase crime. Take a look at Switzerland for example. The gun culture there is huge, and the government subsidises some ammunition. However, the crime there is relatively small.

But i think were missing the point here. Long arms are not just for the purpose of self defense, but also for hunting and the balance of power with the government
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-14-2009, 10:09 AM
reject reject is offline
Grander Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: blah
Thanks: 2,167
Thanked 2,914 Times in 1,987 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

I think anybody from any civilised country could tell you that arming the general population doesn't prevent gun crime.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-14-2009, 10:11 AM
reject reject is offline
Grander Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: blah
Thanks: 2,167
Thanked 2,914 Times in 1,987 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantikore View Post
i do beg to differ. i find the number of violent crimes here to have remained about the same.
Violent crimes don't have to involve firearms.

For example there's a helluva lot of violent crime in the UK, but it's mostly with knives, bats, various other weapons or general beatings with fists, a very small amount of violent crime is done with guns.

Now if you made it easy for everyone to get a gun, then those people will use guns instead of knives, guns instead of bats, so the death rate from violent crime would go up.

Thus banning guns, specifically hand guns, is a very good idea.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-14-2009, 10:39 AM
Bender's Avatar
Bender Bender is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bite my shiney metal ass.
Thanks: 274
Thanked 205 Times in 158 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

I watched that special. And they did a wide test on people who either never picked up a gun to those who had over 100 hours of shooting. And everywhere in between. They couldn't get it out fast enough and got caught in there clothes. It was major failure. Just providing more ammo to the shooter.
__________________
When you kill a king, you don't stab him in the dark.
You do it where there whole court can watch him die.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-14-2009, 10:51 AM
5.56 SS109's Avatar
5.56 SS109 5.56 SS109 is offline
Fat Slut
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,367
Thanked 2,438 Times in 1,478 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syphilis View Post
Maybe if every single person in America didn't have a gun, there would be less shooting deaths. Just maybe.

I fail to see why an assault rifle is needed for "home defense".
Very few people in America own assault rifles.

And, there are absolutely NO documented incidences where a civilian who owns an assault rifle has shot anyone with it.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-14-2009, 10:54 AM
Fish's Avatar
Fish Fish is offline
☼Administrator☼
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Thanks: 245
Thanked 762 Times in 431 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109 View Post
And, there are absolutely NO documented incidences where a civilian who owns an assault rifle has shot anyone with it.
Does this count?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-14-2009, 11:02 AM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Does this count?
No. That has nothing to do with assault rifles, my good man. Assault rifles are select fire or automatic weapons.

"Assault weapons" are normal semi-automatic firearms with scary cosmetic features. They are also used in less than 11% of crimes involving firearms, if I remember correctly, as per NIJ studies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-14-2009, 11:05 AM
Fish's Avatar
Fish Fish is offline
☼Administrator☼
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Thanks: 245
Thanked 762 Times in 431 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
No. That has nothing to do with assault rifles, my good man. Assault rifles are select fire or automatic weapons.
Like an AK-47 type assault rifle? The one mentioned in the article?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-14-2009, 11:06 AM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by reject View Post
I think anybody from any civilised country could tell you that arming the general population doesn't prevent gun crime.
There is obviously no causal relationship between firearms and gun crime. You're a moron as proven elsewhere, so I don't expect you to understand the difference between capability and necessity, but look at Switzerland. Look at Kennesaw, GA. Lots of guns. Legally mandated firearm ownership.

Low gun crime.

No one intelligent is saying more guns=more crime (gun crime or general crime). No one intelligent is saying more guns=less crime.

There is no proven causal relationship, despite the 1992 FBI crime reports finding that states with looser gun laws having lower overall violent crime rates.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-14-2009, 11:08 AM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Like an AK-47 type assault rifle? The one mentioned in the article?
No. Assault rifles are automatic weapons. Look at the youtube video. Semi-automatic weapons are what your article is talking about.

One bullet per trigger pull. Just because they cosmetically appear similar to AK-47's is why they are "assault weapons."

Edit- even though I do see why you would think the mistaken article's phrasing (from an ignorant reporter) would have you believe that an automatic weapon was used. It simply is not the case.

Last edited by Random_Looney; 04-14-2009 at 11:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-14-2009, 11:15 AM
Fish's Avatar
Fish Fish is offline
☼Administrator☼
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Thanks: 245
Thanked 762 Times in 431 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
No. Assault rifles are automatic weapons. Look at the youtube video. Semi-automatic weapons are what your article is talking about.

One bullet per trigger pull. Just because they cosmetically appear similar to AK-47's is why they are "assault weapons."

Edit- even though I do see why you would think the mistaken article's phrasing (from an ignorant reporter) would have you believe that an automatic weapon was used. It simply is not the case.
An AK-47 is fully automatic. What does the article say that leads you to believe that it wasn't really an AK-47 that was used?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-14-2009, 11:22 AM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
An AK-47 is fully automatic. What does the article say that leads you to believe that it wasn't really an AK-47 that was used?
Not necessarily. There are plenty of semi-automatic AK-47's out and about. I have a few myself. It's like the AR-15 compared to an M-16. I have several AR-15 rifles, and no M-16's.

Nothing in the article makes me believe that an automatic weapon wasn't used, except for them crowing about the Assault Weapons Ban. Assault Rifles are already controlled by the Gun Control Act of 1986, and the Assault Weapons Ban has nothing to do with assault rifles.

Just look at the phrasing. AK-47 type rifle. Not AK-47.

However, reading other news articles (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...fyXkAD97GCLGO0)

and the complete lack of mention of automatic weaponry (which is extremely difficult to get, and no citizens are allowed post-1986 manufactured machineguns, driving the price up due to supply and demand) in other sources makes it pretty obvious to me.

Considering how absurdly rare real assault rifles are in private hands, you'd hear about this on every TV station for months if it were an assault rifle and not an assault weapon. I could get the department to send me a letter detailing that a semi-automatic rifle was used if you felt like waiting for the mail : -).
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-14-2009, 11:59 AM
Fish's Avatar
Fish Fish is offline
☼Administrator☼
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Thanks: 245
Thanked 762 Times in 431 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
I could get the department to send me a letter detailing that a semi-automatic rifle was used if you felt like waiting for the mail : -).
Don't be ridiculous. I was merely responding to the claim that there are zero deaths in America at the hands of assault rifles. I'm not a gun expert, nor do I know whether or not Syphilis's original comment was intentionally specific about assault rifles as opposed to assault weapons or something else, but the point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of crimes committed with illegal weapons in America. The fact that we can arguing the semantics of "assault rifles" vs. "assault weapons" doesn't change the fact that if a criminal in America wants a gun, it's not like "laws" are going to stop him.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-14-2009, 02:36 PM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Don't be ridiculous. I was merely responding to the claim that there are zero deaths in America at the hands of assault rifles. I'm not a gun expert, nor do I know whether or not Syphilis's original comment was intentionally specific about assault rifles as opposed to assault weapons or something else, but the point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of crimes committed with illegal weapons in America. The fact that we can arguing the semantics of "assault rifles" vs. "assault weapons" doesn't change the fact that if a criminal in America wants a gun, it's not like "laws" are going to stop him.
I'm just messing with you. And I'm not being ridiculous. It would be ridiculously easy for me to get the specifics.

The issue is not a semantical issue. Please just watch the video. The weapons used in the article are plenty legal... for a law-abiding citizen. The acts of murder are illegal.

5.56's point still stands. Legal assault rifles have only killed people in the hands of police and mobsters, on record, in America.

Assault Weapons are used in a minority of all crimes, per FBI/NIJ crime statistics.

When someone ends up arguing, like the article posted, about something other than what they wish to (not saying what they mean), it's a big deal. It would be akin to me saying alcohol causes blindness when ingested. Methanol, yes. Ethanol, no. I'm not even sure about Butanol, etc.

Last edited by Random_Looney; 04-14-2009 at 04:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:06 PM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Excellent point.

Besides, it wasn't an assault rifle. It's ridiculous to say it takes a gun expert to figure the difference between a machinegun and a rifle.

I even posted a video for those of us who are not hoplophillic.

Edit- but I do respect Fish. Normally we seem to agree.

Last edited by Random_Looney; 04-14-2009 at 06:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:16 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,675
Thanked 2,855 Times in 1,741 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpheus View Post
It needs to be open carry not concealed carry. You're def not gonna rob a guy with a Kalashnikov in his hand now are you?
^Yeah, what he said.

Carrying openly (a .44 magnumRuger Super Blackhawk in a western-style fast-draw rig, BTW) has kept me from being robbed twice, that I know of.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:33 PM
Irukanji Irukanji is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Perth
Thanks: 885
Thanked 353 Times in 272 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syphilis View Post
It didn't work out too bad for Australia, the UK, every other country.
Sure, but now they just jump the counter with a baseball bat/axe/machete and kill the guy instead of just threatening. And we have the "dole", where people basically sit on their ass and get money. Not like welfare in the usa which lasts for 6 months.

Instead of robbing the rich guy with a gun, they start bashing old women who almost always have money, women with children, etc. Guns just make it easier. Just ban niggers and we'll be perfectly safe.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:39 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,675
Thanked 2,855 Times in 1,741 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

^In the US, welfare can last for years--depends on the state, and how old your kids are.

Able-bodied adults--as a rule--don't get welfare at all--unless they are rich CEOS who ruined their companies--then they get billions.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-14-2009, 06:48 PM
Euda Euda is offline
Confusationalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada
Thanks: 415
Thanked 620 Times in 481 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Guns simply make it too easy for men, women, and children to wound or kill people.

Hiding the possession of a gun does not make it any harder to would or kill. In fact, it gives people an excuse to act in ways that they wouldn't otherwise act. I haven't found any reason to support gun ownership, without the specific purpose of hunting animals for food.

Last edited by Euda; 04-14-2009 at 06:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-14-2009, 07:06 PM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euda View Post
Guns simply make it too easy for men, women, and children to wound or kill people.

Hiding the possession of a gun does not make it any harder to would or kill. In fact, it gives people an excuse to act in ways that they wouldn't otherwise act. I haven't found any reason to support gun ownership, without the specific purpose of hunting animals for food.

I wonder why you trust people with cars. More people are killed by cars than firearms every year.

What firearms do is make small, weak individuals stand a chance against larger individuals, even when outnumbered.

And what about recreational target shooting? It's an Olympic sport, as well as a national and regional sport in many locales.


And what do you mean by hiding a gun making it harder to kill? The ability to kill is irrelevant to the concealment of a weapon. The reason to hide a weapon is not to make it harder to hurt someone (most shootings, the upper 80 percentile of handgun shootings, are not lethal anyway). The reason to hide a weapon is to have the element of surprise, and to not freak people out. You give me a 5'4" 100 pound woman and let me know she has a gun, and tell me I have to rape her. I'll bet my chances would be better if I knew she had the gun, and where. I might still end up in the hospital 7/10 times, but we'd be on equal informational footing. And I'm bigger. Her only advantage is her firearm. And since I know it's there... I can try and minimize that advantage.

It most certainly does not give anyone a reason to act as they otherwise wouldn't. When you carry a concealed weapon, you are held to a much higher legal standard than if you are unarmed.

Quite simply, it seems your fears of people hurting each other, at least in most countries with legal carrying permits, are unfounded. I did quite a bit of research while helping train police cadets, and people who have concealed weapons permits in the states are less likely to even be indicted (not arrested) for crime than their peers.

Permits are hardly ever revoked, and they would be if you so much as showed your weapon in a location where open carry was not allowed. Certainly if you brandished, threatened, or used your firearm illegally. In fact, in one compilation from the local PD's, I found that less than one tenth of a single percent of permits were revoked or denied for criminal conduct. And trust me, they are easy to revoke. Plenty of LE here don't want "John Q. Citizen" waltzing around with a firearm. They want to be the only game in town....

If you want to find a good reason, look at the Second Amendment, or Switzerland. You don't need it in your country, but America and Switzerland have a history of national self-preservation. That's where America came from- armed revolt from the British. How on earth you could say that's not a "good" reason is beyond me.

Last edited by Random_Looney; 04-14-2009 at 07:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-14-2009, 07:13 PM
023 023 is offline
Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Thanks: 50
Thanked 35 Times in 18 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13579 View Post


Actually, it did turn out bad.

Will somebody dig up the statistics where it was shown crime actually went up as a result of these bans?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
13579 (04-15-2009)
  #37  
Old 04-14-2009, 07:47 PM
Euda Euda is offline
Confusationalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada
Thanks: 415
Thanked 620 Times in 481 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
What firearms do is make small, weak individuals stand a chance against larger individuals, even when outnumbered.
Firearms also allow large, strong, individuals to talk big because they have the means of wounding or killing at their fingertips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
And what about recreational target shooting? It's an Olympic sport, as well as a national and regional sport in many locales.
Ski ballet was also an Olympic sport and is still a national and regional sport in many locales. The Olympics have included many events over the years. They do both take quite a bit of practice and skill, I'm sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
And what do you mean by hiding a gun making it harder to kill?
I'd rather know that an unbalanced individual has a gun, than have him pull one out of hiding because I said the wrong thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
The ability to kill is irrelevant to the concealment of a weapon. The reason to hide a weapon is not to make it harder to hurt someone (most shootings, the upper 80 percentile of handgun shootings, are not lethal anyway). The reason to hide a weapon is to have the element of surprise, and to not freak people out. You give me a 5'4" 100 pound woman and let me know she has a gun, and tell me I have to rape her. I'll bet my chances would be better if I knew she had the gun, and where. I might still end up in the hospital 7/10 times, but we'd be on equal informational footing. And I'm bigger. Her only advantage is her firearm. And since I know it's there... I can try and minimize that advantage.
You believe that you would end up in the hospital seven out of ten times, but you believe that she should hide her weapon and wait for something to happen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
It most certainly does not give anyone a reason to act as they otherwise wouldn't. When you carry a concealed weapon, you are held to a much higher legal standard than if you are unarmed.
Knowing that you're armed doesn't give a person an excuse to behave in a bolder manner than normal? I have to respectfully disagree, unless you can give me a reason. A person can behave poorly within the bounds of the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
Quite simply, it seems your fears of people hurting each other, at least in most countries with legal carrying permits, are unfounded. I did quite a bit of research while helping train police cadets, and people who have concealed weapons permits in the states are less likely to even be indicted (not arrested) for crime than their peers.
I don't see how they're unfounded, but I'd be happy to learn. I do have an aversion to guns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
Permits are hardly ever revoked, and they would be if you so much as showed your weapon in a location where open carry was not allowed. Certainly if you brandished, threatened, or used your firearm illegally. In fact, in one compilation from the local PD's, I found that less than one tenth of a single percent of permits were revoked or denied for criminal conduct. And trust me, they are easy to revoke. Plenty of LE here don't want "John Q. Citizen" waltzing around with a firearm. They want to be the only game in town....
I'm not sure why anybody would want various 'games in town'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random_Looney View Post
If you want to find a good reason, look at the Second Amendment, or Switzerland. You don't need it in your country, but America and Switzerland have a history of national self-preservation. That's where America came from- armed revolt from the British. How on earth you could say that's not a "good" reason is beyond me.
America hasn't left their history of self-preservation behind? What seems to remain, from an outsider viewpoint, is extremists, army brats, and fringe groups. I keep hearing the term "Year in Hate" being bandied about in conversation and it does somewhat disturb me.

Last edited by Euda; 04-14-2009 at 07:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-14-2009, 08:02 PM
Random_Looney Random_Looney is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 6
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

Quote:
Originally Posted by Euda View Post
Firearms also allow large, strong, individuals to talk big because they have the means of wounding or killing at their fingertips.
Which they already have, being physically large and strong.

Quote:
Ski ballet was also an Olympic sport and is still a national and regional sport in many locales. The Olympics have included many events over the years.
Non-sequitur. That has nothing to do with my point, and is completely irrelevant. Shooting in the NCAA, NRA, IPSC, IDPA, USPSPA, and local official events in the US alone are just a few. That's organized, official events. There are plenty that aren't competitive, and plenty I didn't mention.

Quote:
I'd rather know that an unbalanced individual has a gun, than have him pull one out of hiding because I said the wrong thing.
And the majority of people don't like seeing firearms openly. You like to? Good for you. I think that's cool. It doesn't bother me, personally. I enjoy the freedom of being able to apply for a concealed carry permit, or holster a handgun on my belt (which I do not do).

Quote:
You believe that you would end up in the hospital seven out of ten times, but you believe that she should hide her weapon and wait for something to happen?
Yes. That's how self-defense works. You react to a threat against your personal safety.

Or do you mean to ask if I believe she should rather conceal her weapon than open carry? Honestly, I don't care. It's her decision. Her right. She can do whatever she wants. My opinion is irrelevant.

Quote:
Knowing that you're armed doesn't give a person an excuse to behave in a bolder manner than normal? I have to respectfully disagree, unless you can give me a reason. A person can behave poorly within the bounds of the law.
No, it doesn't. If you start any kind of bickering while carrying a concealed weapon, you will get in legal trouble. You are held to a higher standard. You are obligated only to use a weapon when you believe articulably that your life or the life of an immediate other (depends on locality) is in imminent danger. Anything else can result in severe criminal prosecution because they are VERY serious crimes.

If you invite trouble, you will be at fault.
Quote:
I don't see how they're unfounded, but I'd be happy to learn. I do have an aversion to guns.
Your fears are unfounded unless you happen to have some strange outlier statistics that oppose every I've ever read, heard, or computed myself.

There are millions of firearms all around the world. Not many people are hurt/killed by them a year. More people are killed annually by cars. More people by pools. You are fixating on some strange improbable fear of being shot. Why do you not trust your neighbors with firearms?
Quote:
I'm not sure why anybody would want various 'games in town'.
The right to self-preservation. In the US, the police have no legal obligation to the individual. If I call the police and say my wife is being raped, and I'm killed on the phone while the police laugh at me (extreme example), they are not legally responsible. Castle Rock versus Gonzales.

The right to self-preservation via a handgun is recognized as a natural right in the US Constitution. Why someone would deny the right to defend oneself is what I'm not sure of. I mean, LE officers are issued weapons... and trust me, LE training isn't always very... impressive. Most non-LE shooters I know are better off than the majority of police. The same can be true of various military members. It's not the rule, but it's scarily not the exception.

Quote:
America hasn't left their history of self-preservation behind? What seems to remain, from an outsider viewpoint, is extremists, army brats, and fringe groups. I keep hearing the term "Year in Hate" being bandied about in conversation and it does somewhat disturb me.
You obviously don't understand the Constitution. No country ever leaves their history of "self-preservation" behind. The Second Amendment is supposed to defend against all threats, foreign and domestic. Realize that America used to be British. The British subjects violently rebelled against their government. In fact, in World War II, a famous Naval Admiral of the Japanese Navy discouraged a full invasion of the mainland (not counting Alaska) due to the fear that every American would be armed with rifles.

You're also completely ignoring Switzerland.

Last edited by Random_Looney; 04-14-2009 at 08:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-14-2009, 08:10 PM
Euda Euda is offline
Confusationalist
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada
Thanks: 415
Thanked 620 Times in 481 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

The non-sequitur was purposeful. I don't see how the Olympics legitimatizes anything as a sport. Have you ever seen ski ballet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y4TkRYQqHk

The American constitution, as well as American politics, has never really interested me; therefore, I am not versed in the topic matter. Whenever I make inquiries, people seem to change the subject or don't know the basics. Could you provide some readings on Switzerland and anything else that you see as suitable? I apologize for getting into the conversation without being well-versed. I sometimes jump the gun.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-14-2009, 08:30 PM
Dog's Avatar
Dog Dog is offline
Archduke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Colorado
Thanks: 372
Thanked 1,041 Times in 645 Posts
Default Re: ABC 20/20 claims concealed carry does not prevent gun crime

As Fish said, the setting is what matters, as you can make a good case for and against concealed carry. In any case: Guns aren't going to be banned; they just want more restrictions on them, and I'm 100% for it.

Too many Americans have shown themselves to be downright insane, and I don't feel comfortable knowing how easy it is for the psychos in this country to get guns. I think the most important restriction on gun ownership needs to be a detailed psychological evaluation.

Last thing: I think people are focusing on a secondary problem instead of the primary one. In just about every other "1st world" country, citizens don't have the same need to protect themselves from violent thugs and criminals. Obviously there is crime everywhere, but the level you find in America competes with the crime-rate in 3rd-world hell holes. That's the problem that needs to be solved, and even if every thug magically dropped dead, there'd be a new batch within a few years. You should focus more of your energy on solutions to the cultural and social conditions that lead to such high US crime.

Last edited by Dog; 04-14-2009 at 08:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
20 or 20, abc, carry, claims, concealed, crime, gun, prevent

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Concealed Carry in the Summer puzld Weapons and Combat 29 04-22-2009 03:01 AM
How to prevent shark attacks. Valheru Generally Speaking 35 04-16-2009 02:59 PM
How Many Women Here Carry Condoms? Dog Love, Lust, and Relationships 53 04-07-2009 10:42 PM
Best way to carry a loot after a B&E E&B Bad Ideas 26 03-14-2009 02:16 AM
Police Chief is advocating civilians carry whistles to thwart crime totse This Just In! 6 02-27-2009 09:09 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:46 PM.


Hot Topics
Join our Chatroom!
Users: 8
Messages/minute: 0
Topic: "Only rule: be nice or I'll cut your fucking face off, dumbshit"
Users: 27
Messages/minute: 1.6
Topic: "http://codelove.org :: Below is above in 2 codes 1 love. :: wh..."
Users: 18
Messages/minute: 5
Topic: "http://www.literotica...."
Advertisements
Your ad could go right HERE! Contact us!

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.