"Professional" Musicianship and Other Frustrating Semantics

[LostCause]

I've been playing music essentially my whole life, but I started performing when I was about 8. My parents got me set up with a well known children show, but didn't want to move to Chicago and ended up pulling me out. After which I was sufficed to just to the run of the mill school plays, band, and choir, talent shows, etc... When I was 13 I ran away with a rock and roll band and decided that was what I wanted to do.

I spent the next year meeting groups of strange men in dark alleyways and warehouses late at night. I did a brief stint in a punk band, but then ended up moving the Florida and getting married. When I was 19 and divorced I moved back and continued the search until I met a punk band to front. I spent three years fronting a shite punk band called Sweet Polly Purebred and then left to try to pursue something more complicated.

Eventually I ended up in a technically oriented sort of popcore band. The music was very technically and physically demanding. My bandmates were prodigal geniuses who followed the veins of Mr. Bungle, John Zorn, John Coltrane, etc... Where I've always hailed from a DIY lo fi sound like The Birthday Party, Lydia Lunch, Carey's Problem, etc... Our styles clashed but our sound was amazing. We inspired a large following almost immediately and were doing nation wide tours within a year. Which is essentially what broke us.

Now, I find myself one of best front people in the Northern California area. I'm not exaggerating. I know my weaknesses and my strengths and I am. I know how to write a song and structure. I know how to write a set, how to work a crowd, how to run all the wires, how to set up a studio for recording. I have endless contacts at all wrungs of the industry and know what makes a professional recording and how to execute it. I can organize a tour, shake hands, and take care of the business end, but there's a small problem that gets larger all the time...

I'm really not that great a musician. I still can't identify notes by ear and while I can play both piano and guitar I play niether very well/accurately. And now I'm in a very simple band where I can exercise these weak spots and the other singer and I clash constantly on what is "professional" musicianship.

What's really funny is - while he teaches music - he's not the best guitarist either. His technique is bad and he misses notes a lot, not to mention he smokes and coughs and hacks when he's singing. But, I never say anything because I'm not perfect either. However, he makes sure to point out that I don't identify notes perfectly at every chance he gets. He says he's a professional and I'm not because he can do that, and I say he doesn't take care of his voice and his guitar often sounds like shit, so he's not very professional either. Also, he doesn't know how to set up the studio so it doesn't feedback, and he barely talks to the audience at all. I also don't think his interpersonal conduct within the band is very professional. He unloads on people all the time and claims he enjoys that kind of band dynamic, has asked me to bare his children, and wants to record a "professional" album on the beach and when I answer that wouldn't render a professional recording he interupts me by saying "Bullshit".

I mean, what do YOU consider a professional musician?

Cheers,
Lost

[sevenTwo]

A professional musician makes a living playing music. That's all. Of course you're going to have your skilled and your poorly skilled but that's in every occupation.

On a side note, you made that guy sound like a total dick--maybe he is a dick. Maybe he's not. Maybe you should take his criticisms and improve in those areas to better YOURSELF as a musician rather than getting all defensive about it. My 2 cents.

[LostCause]

Originally Posted by sevenTwo

A professional musician makes a living playing music. That's all. Of course you're going to have your skilled and your poorly skilled but that's in every occupation.

On a side note, you made that guy sound like a total dick--maybe he is a dick. Maybe he's not. Maybe you should take his criticisms and improve in those areas to better YOURSELF as a musician rather than getting all defensive about it. My 2 cents.

I never argue with his suggestions and work on the things he tells me to. That's why I'm venting here. He wont take ANY suggestions or criticism from me because he thinks he's way better than me and doesn't take me seriously, which is just false, but I don't point it out because it seems like it would just lead to more interpersonal problems if I did.

Cheers,
Lost

[MandatorySuicide]

Originally Posted by LostCause

He wont take ANY suggestions or criticism from me because he thinks he's way better than me and doesn't take me seriously, which is just false, but I don't point it out because it seems like it would just lead to more interpersonal problems if I did.

Maybe, but do you really think things will go smoothly in the long run if you always bite your tongue? At least if you speak up there's a chance that you can talk it out and get past it eventually.


I dunno. I've never really had to deal with such a massive ego (in a band, anyway). It still seems like a bad idea to let it run wild, though. With people like that, silence tends to reaffirm their delusions.

What do the other band members think and say about it?

[water bottle]

Good to see you posting . And yeah, inter-band relationships can suck. A good friend of mine turned into a douche who I don't wish to talk to ever again over the course of a six-month bout of him playing with us. Out of curiosity, what's the name of your band? I'm in the pacific northwest, and you're apparently based in SF, so if you ever play a show in Seattle or Vancouver, I might be able to check you guys out.

[AdamSmokesCrack]

Holy shit it's LostCause.
Anyways.
Being a professional musician is all about money. I know a guy who doesn't even practice scales or chords. He just learns different songs by various hair bands and classic rock bands, because that's what he plays at bars, and that's what makes him money.
Sidetracking aside, being a professional musician is garbage unless you're actually making enough money to not have to work another job along with it.

[LostCause]

Originally Posted by MandatorySuicide

Maybe, but do you really think things will go smoothly in the long run if you always bite your tongue? At least if you speak up there's a chance that you can talk it out and get past it eventually.


I dunno. I've never really had to deal with such a massive ego (in a band, anyway). It still seems like a bad idea to let it run wild, though. With people like that, silence tends to reaffirm their delusions.

What do the other band members think and say about it?

Well, I have brought it up. I mean, I haven't been completely non-confrontational. We spent 3 hours hashing it out 2 weeks ago, but nothings changed. He simply doesn't respect as a musician and is really rude but yet tells people he's inlove with me and wants me to bear his children. Its super schitzo.

And while I agree I've also learned that you can't change people and trying more often than not leads to disaster, no matter how delusional they are. I call him ego-maniac as a nickname.

I think they agree with both of us. They don't think either of us are the greatest musicians but recognize me as indispensable because of my experience performing and my ability to command everyones attention more or less wherever I go. Which also clearly irritates Casey who cant stand NOT being the center of attention and doesn't believe I deserve the praise I get.

O and we're called West Of Utopia and we'd love to play Seattle.

Cheers,
Lost

[Bobweirsucks]

i feel in order to be a successful musician you gotta have an ego. but that's only if you have substance to back you up when someone calls you out for being a douche. the guy you're talking about sounds like a douche and you should stand up to him, if he says that you're no better than he is agree with then make the point that you aren't a douche about it. douche musicians are also great motivation to practice, there's nothing like putting a douche in his/her place.

so I really have two suggestions:
1. call him out
2. practice your ass off and move on to bigger and better things. which will happen if you practice.

[Minotaur]

That is bullshit, and you shouldn't have to deal with it. If I were you, I would tell him that things will either have to change, or you should find another group to play with. If someone is going to be an asshole like that, they had better be fucking good.

[redhead]

One who gets paid to perform. I consider myself a profesional as I tour internationally and am paid for most performances I do.

[Duelist]

You need to be born with the ability to identify i pitch just by hearing it.

No amount of practice can help you, if your listening to one individual note.

A series of notes, however...


I would classify "professional" musicianship as being your primary talent and moneymaker.

If you supplement your rockstar life with some dishwashing, I suppose you could call yourself professional.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Sexual Deviant

You need to be born with the ability to identify i pitch just by hearing it.

No amount of practice can help you, if your listening to one individual note.

I've heard people say that, but I don't think it's necessarily true. All you need to be able to do is remember the pitch and recall what it sounds like. I learned that if I remembered a song in my head that I liked, I could think about it and remember it in the right key. I learned how to do it by picking a few songs that I had listened to and I couldn't forget, and thinking about them in relationship to the note I want to identify. Also, I have tuned so many guitars that I can tune one to pitch without a tuner.

I suppose some people aren't able to recall sound in such a way. I don't think it's impossible to learn, though. Try this: think about your favorite song. The one that you've listened to hundreds, if not thousands of times. Think about the first note in it, or the first note the singer sings, or anything. Just have one in mind. Now listen to the song. Do you get the note right? Close? If you do, I guarantee if you practice it you will develop a good sense of pitch. I won't say I have "perfect pitch", but I can tune a guitar without a reference tone accurate to 5c at most every time.

[Kai]

Originally Posted by Sexual Deviant

You need to be born with the ability to identify i pitch just by hearing it.

No amount of practice can help you, if your listening to one individual note.

A series of notes, however...

Actually, everybody is born with the ability to identify pitch just by hearing it. You're saying that if I played two random notes on a keyboard you'd tell me you couldn't tell that they were of a different pitch, that they sounded exactly the same to you?

Perfect pitch is just realizing the tones and assigning them an arbitrary value (like A flat). It's no different than being able to pick out colors by name when you look at them, except they don't teach it to you in school