Aerosolized Ketamine.

[delysid]

Is it possible?
I was thinking about the russian theatre hostage crisis in 2002, where they ended up killing everyone with what was suspected as being fentanyl gas.
How hard would it be to make aerosolized ketamine?

[jheit8]

I assume the dose would be too high for it to be effective.

[sexually vulnerable CPR dummy]

Originally Posted by delysid

Is it possible?
fentanyl gas.

Why fentanyl? why not something like cyanide? I understand anything can be poisonous in high enough concentrations but still.. Fentanyl?

[I Kill Null Airtime]

Pretty sure it was valium and they didn't intend on killing them.

[delysid]

Originally Posted by sexually vulnerable CPR dummy

Why fentanyl? why not something like cyanide? I understand anything can be poisonous in high enough concentrations but still.. Fentanyl?

To knock them out of action, then they used naloxone to bring the hostages back around.

Originally Posted by I Kill Null Airtime

Pretty sure it was valium and they didn't intend on killing them.

"While still refusing to identify the gas, on October 28, 2002 the Russian government informed the U.S. Embassy of some of the gas's effects. Based on this information and examinations of victims, doctors concluded the gas was a morphine derivative. The Russian media reported the drug was Kolokol-1, either mefentanyl or α-methylfentanil dissolved in a halothane base."

[jheit8]

Originally Posted by sexually vulnerable CPR dummy

Why fentanyl? why not something like cyanide? I understand anything can be poisonous in high enough concentrations but still.. Fentanyl?

Originally Posted by I Kill Null Airtime

Pretty sure it was valium and they didn't intend on killing them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_...hemical_attack

[I Kill Null Airtime]

I remember watching the news when that happened and they said valium. I guess I was young enough I still believed what I saw on tv.

[delysid]

Originally Posted by I Kill Null Airtime

I remember watching the news when that happened and they said valium. I guess I was young enough I still believed what I saw on tv.

Nah, it's not like that. It's just that the russian government didn't release ANY information at the time, so doctors didn't know how to treat the hostages properly.
Experts/medical professionals had to guess based on the effects, valium was one of those guesses.
In the end they decided it was a stronger form of fentanyl, but not sufentanyl or carfentanyl, something new that the russians had developed themselves.

[psychomanthis]

Originally Posted by sexually vulnerable CPR dummy

Why fentanyl? why not something like cyanide? I understand anything can be poisonous in high enough concentrations but still.. Fentanyl?

They used carfentanyl which is an analog of fentanyl with about 100 times it's potency. They had hoped it to be non-lethal lol.

[GreatestGatsby4]

1. Go through withdrawals
2. Take some fools hostage
3. Get a fat dose of free fentanyl
4. ???
5. Nod out

[frozenveinz]

Would this be for recreational use or for a theatre hostage situation? If the former, dissolve into non toxic solvent of choice, transfer solution to misto can, pump, and enjoy.

[delysid]

Originally Posted by frozenveinz

Would this be for recreational use or for a theatre hostage situation? If the former, dissolve into non toxic solvent of choice, transfer solution to misto can, pump, and enjoy.

No I was thinking for the hostage situation.
I suppose it'd be funny watching someone spray themselves with ket dissolved in ether and then trying to walk.

[Aperson444]

The reason the Russians could get away with that is because the active dose for their compound was incredibly puny. If you can find a ketamine analog that works at such a low dose, you're set. Otherwise getting an active dose to disperse uniformly will be incredibly tough.

And the Russians intended to use the fentanyl as an incapacitating agent, not a lethal chemical weapon. By causing the hostage takers to nod off into a nearly comatose state, the police/special forces could storm the theater with minimal casualties. Didn't quite turn out well though.

[delysid]

Originally Posted by Aperson444

And the Russians intended to use the fentanyl as an incapacitating agent, not a lethal chemical weapon.

Which is why I thought of ketamine, although the dosage would be useless.
Perhaps theres some drug waiting to be found by some lucky chemist.

[frozenveinz]

Maybe THC or an analog?

[delysid]

Originally Posted by frozenveinz

Maybe THC or an analog?

Very good idea
Would probably work too.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by delysid

How hard would it be to make aerosolized ketamine?

Well, for personal use, one can just buy a refillable e-cig and solvate the ketamine in either propylene glycol or glycerine and load up the cartrige. The issue is that each hit there will only be 10-15mg of vapor, so if the solution is only 10% ketamine, dosing would take a while. On a larger scale, small ultrasonic humidifiers could be used with an aqueous solution of the drug. The key thing with both these methods is that they don't boil the drug, but simply the solvent to aerosolize the stuff.

[delysid]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Well, for personal use, one can just buy a refillable e-cig and solvate the ketamine in either propylene glycol or glycerine and load up the cartrige. The issue is that each hit there will only be 10-15mg of vapor, so if the solution is only 10% ketamine, dosing would take a while. On a larger scale, small ultrasonic humidifiers could be used with an aqueous solution of the drug. The key thing with both these methods is that they don't boil the drug, but simply the solvent to aerosolize the stuff.

Interesting stuff.

[frozenveinz]

Wait, how would an e-cig work? Don't they just boil the solution? If ket is a solid, I highly doubt it would work.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by frozenveinz

Wait, how would an e-cig work? Don't they just boil the solution? If ket is a solid, I highly doubt it would work.

You would have to solvate the ket in propylene glycol or glycerine.

They boil the solution fast enough and violently enough to take the solute (in this case ketamine) into the vapor. The vapor rapidly condenses into microdroplets in the air (looks like smoke), but still containing the ketamine and carrying it to the lungs. It's not the greatest way of doing things, but it is one of the easiest.

[frozenveinz]

I thought they worked because nicotine is a liquid. Huh, that doesn't sound right though. Vaporizing a liquid an taking dissolved solids with it.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by frozenveinz

I thought they worked because nicotine is a liquid. Huh, that doesn't sound right though. Vaporizing a liquid an taking dissolved solids with it.

The fact that a thing would be a solid outside of solution has little bearing on its properties in solution. When you boil a solution at that rate, you're causing explosive nucleation of the vaporous phase on a microscale which takes all solutes along with it, regardless of their boiling (or melting) point.

[BungHole]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrospray

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by BungHole

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrospray

Beast. Now find me a link to buy one on ebay.

[BungHole]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=...izer&_osacat=0

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by BungHole

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=...izer&_osacat=0

Well shit. I didn't think they'd actually be there, but then again... ebay. Well, at either 2 or 4 grand, they're going to be a bit out of our price range.

[HOLLISTER GUY]

Ketamine isn't potent and doesn't last long. Try pcp or a more poten analog.