Free will vs. Determinism

[Zay]

Let's get it on!

Surely the outcome is already pre-determined.

Determinism, causality, senses are bullshit, people are products of their environment, etc.

Free will. Is it matter or energy? Neither? Responsibility. Choice. Unpredictable?

I take Molyneux' wager, self explanatory if you're familiar with Pascal's wager. Might as well pretend free will exists, whether it does or doesn't. We can't even predict the weather, let alone account for all the factors that contribute to the behavior of humans.

The human brain is the most complex collection of matter that we know of, so no model does it justice. If there is no free will, then what do you call the level of meta-thinking and decision that humans achieve? Having thoughts about thoughts about thoughts about thoughts.

[Butcher]

It could be determined in a experiment involving a machine like the matrix, 4 newborn babies (2 identical twins and 2 unrelated) and a serious infringement on human rights. If only we had a machine like the matrix.....

Until then we'll never know.

[Cliche Guevara]

Today I came to the conclusion very similar to Molyneux's wager.(I've never heard of Molyneux's wager and wikipedia brings up nothing) I think in modern philosophy free will is an outdated concept, and it does not really have any ontological/metaphysical implications. . I could understand why in earlier philosophy the concept of free will would be a philosophical dilemma, but we as humans know who are now and from where we came from and the idea of our existence is not really a mystery. So I would argue, that because of our humble and natural origins, does free will or fate really matter? (the mechanisms of free will/fate would surely be determined by natural science as opposed to some kind of divine intervention)

I would even say that even though our fate may be determined, its nothing mystical or as grandiose as some grand puppeteer manipulating our actions behind the scenes. If we are all playing a part in a cosmic play, then I would say it occurs on the quantum level or at the very least some kind of explainable phenomena (not an original thought of mine, there is a scene in waking life that this originates from). There is no esoteric cause behind any of it and I think it is more a scientific problem than an ontological one.

Although I would also say that even if we are living under the illusion of free will, and any conceivable action on our part to be 'free' is just another act in 'the cosmic play', the illusion is identical to the reality and therefore, irrelevant.

[Zay]

Originally Posted by Cliche Guevara

Today I came to the conclusion very similar to Molyneux's wager.(I've never heard of Molyneux's wager and wikipedia brings up nothing) I think in modern philosophy free will is an outdated concept, and it does not really have any ontological/metaphysical implications. . I could understand why in earlier philosophy the concept of free will would be a philosophical dilemma, but we as humans know who are now and from where we came from and the idea of our existence is not really a mystery. So I would argue, that because of our humble and natural origins, does free will or fate really matter? (the mechanisms of free will/fate would surely be determined by natural science as opposed to some kind of divine intervention)

I would even say that even though our fate may be determined, its nothing mystical or as grandiose as some grand puppeteer manipulating our actions behind the scenes. If we are all playing a part in a cosmic play, then I would say it occurs on the quantum level or at the very least some kind of explainable phenomena (not an original thought of mine, there is a scene in waking life that this originates from)

Words that end in s, z, or x don't get an s in the possessive form. That and Molyneux only busted onto the scene a couple years ago. He's not exactly well-known yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_molyneux

[Cliche Guevara]

Nothing on his philosophy though

[Dog]

Originally Posted by Zay

Words that end in s, z, or x don't get an s in the possessive form. That and Molyneux only busted onto the scene a couple years ago. He's not exactly well-known yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_molyneux

Molyneux phonetically ends in an "o"-like sound.

[ArmsMerchant]

I am totally on the side of free will, modern philosophy notwithstanding. We create our own reality.

That said, at the Highest Level, we are all one, so consensual reality is co-created--that is, what we--as a species--choose to manifest will be manifested.

[ants in my poptarts]

All particles in the universe are subject to laws governing thier behavior. If people are made up of these particle then they are subject to those laws as well. At the time of the big bang if some all powerful being knew everything about all the particles in existance and all the laws of nature that govern them, then couldn't they plot out everything that would happen, ever?

[hooloovoo]

Originally Posted by Zay

I take Molyneux' wager, self explanatory if you're familiar with Pascal's wager. Might as well pretend free will exists, whether it does or doesn't. We can't even predict the weather, let alone account for all the factors that contribute to the behavior of humans.

The human brain is the most complex collection of matter that we know of, so no model does it justice. If there is no free will, then what do you call the level of meta-thinking and decision that humans achieve? Having thoughts about thoughts about thoughts about thoughts.

I've been a determinist for over a decade now, since I was old enough to have such things enter my mind. My favorite summary of how I view the illusion of freewill comes from the author Orson Scott Card:

"Aren't human beings the same way, programmed by our genes and our environment? As I recall, the official philosophical answer is that free will doesn't exist. Only the illusion of free will, because the causes of our behavior are so complex that we can't trace them back. If you've got one line of dominoes knocking each other down one by one, then you can always say, Look, this domino fell because that one pushed it. But when you have an infinite number of dominoes that can be traced back in an infinite number of directions, you can never find where the casual chain begins. So you think, That domino fell because it wanted to."
-Orson Scott Card (Ender in Xenocide)

I hadn't previously heard of Molyneux or his wager, but I always figured the best way to proceed in human interaction was to act as if free will was a reality- not so much because we can't trace back lines of causality far enough to predict future human thoughts and decisions, but because holding people accountable for their actions is necessary in order to ensure that future human thoughts and decisions are more positive and proactive.

I think the main benefit of developing an awareness of the impact of outside governing factors on individual human behavior is that it helps develop a more empathetic and forgiving attitude towards those that act out in ways we would otherwise deem as reprehensible.

[Kombineanarchy]

I am on the side of semi free will. there is a destiny for us that god has (christian) i will elaborate later.....

[Agent 008]

I think free will is there.

Why?

Because I have no other explanation for the need of being in a conscious state. Why aren't we just biorobots, carbon bots?

Impossible to find out for sure though - will be impossible for a long time.
There are no external tests to find out if a subject has free will.
The only way to find out is to completely reverse engineer human brains and human bodies. Then, if everything about humans can be explained from that knowledge, we will find out how free will (or an illusion of free will) operates.
If not everything can be explained from that knowledge, it suggests that there exists a meta-universe which is non-deterministic and in which free will is possible - and then it is channelled into our universe, akin to a gamer's "free will (or illusion of it)" is getting channelled from his mind into a computer generated universe.