2 Rules That Need To Go Away 1 That Needs Changed

[TheDarkRodent]

The 2 rules which need to go away.

Privacy and Confidentiality
You may not for any reason share or quote information that was posted in #modz (the irc channel) or the Mods and Admins forum. Sharing information with anyone who is not already a moderator or administrator is also forbidden. If there is something that you would really like to relay to a member, send a private message to an admin and ask permission. Otherwise, what is said in the mods-only areas stays there.

This rule and the motivation and reasoning behind it is why all civilized governments are required to make their dealings a matter of public record. When the ruling class can meet behind closed doors out of the light of the public eye they become corrupt. If the users of zoklet (which is what zoklet is) were able to read what was said in M&A and #modz then the administration of this community would be much more responsible to the needs and wishes of the members.

After all it does clearly state in the Moderator Guidelines that moderators are just regular users who have been given access to forum tools.

Moderator Guidelines
Moderators... where to begin. As a moderator there are a few things must keep in mind at all times.

1. You are a regular user who has been given permission to use certain forum tools to enforce the rules. Though you get to make many new decisions as a moderator, that does not mean you are higher or mightier than anyone else on the forum. You are a regular user.
2. Because we have entrusted you with the use of these forum tools, we expect more out of you than we would a regular user in terms of your behavior.
3. One of the reasons you were selected as a moderator was that you have consistently proven yourself to be a very helpful, knowledgeable, regular, and responsible poster.

So if moderators are not higher and are not mightier than anyone else why should they have an area to post in that the rest of the regular users can not even read. So either M&A and #modz needs to be opened to public viewing or a forum and IRC channel needs to be created where the rest of the regular users can post without the content being read by the group of regular users who have access to certain forum tools. This would be the only equitable resolution other that to open M&A and #modz to read access for the rest of the regular users.

Disobeying an administrator
5 points, 14 days
If an admin (Zok, Fish, or Trueborn) tells you to (or not to) do something, you’d better listen. If you don’t agree with what they have asked of you, you can ask another admin their opinion of the matter but you may NOT disregard the first admin’s request until a resolution has been reached.

This is a ridiculous totalitarian approach to managing an online community. It is the equivalent of saying "This is my sandbox and if I tell you to stand on your head while I pour sand down your pants you must do it or else. Also if this rule exists why have any other rule. I mean if a user must do whatever an admin says why not just modify this rule to read as follows?

Disobeying an administrator anywhere or a mod in their forum
5 points, 14 days
If an admin (Zok, Fish, or Trueborn) tells you to (or not to) do something, you’d better listen. The same goes for a mod within their forum. If you don’t agree with what they have asked of you, you can ask another admin their opinion of the matter but you may NOT disregard the first admin’s request until a resolution has been reached.

I mean really, if you have this rule it pretty much eliminates the need for any other rules. So either mod this rule as indicated above or admit it is childish/egocentric and eliminate it entirely.

I know that I for one will not do something simply on the merit of being told so by anyone unless it makes sense and is just.

The one rule that needs changed.

Purposely posting off topic replies or threads (repeatedly)
3 points, 14 days
Users who continuously post off topic replies or threads will receive a 3 point infraction that lasts 2 weeks. If it is a first time offense, you can expect a warning instead of an infraction. If the moderator has had to ask you multiple times not to do this, you will likely receive an infraction. It is ultimately up to the moderator to decide when something is off topic.

It needs to be clearly stated in this rule that a user may not be infracted under any circumstances if they are replying directly to another users post in a thread regardless of whether or not the post the user is replying to is on topic. In other words if user A makes an off topic post and 3 other users reply to it then the only user who should be at risk of a warning or infraction is user A. Hell, I have seen mods carry on with someone who has made an off topic post on multiple occasions in almost every forum I post in. And I don't mean that the mod is going back and forth (off topic) with a user for the purpose of arguing about the on "topicness" of the users post. I am talking about the mod directly discussing off topic matter in a thread with a user for the purpose of arguing an off topic point.

In the cases such as I have touched on above the mod never gets warned or infracted only the other regular user. So this rule needs to be modified to restrict the mods to warning/infracting only the original off topic post and not anyone who replies to such a post.

[Twin Gats]

Yeah i agree these rules need to be changed. Fuck you admins, blow me, if u dont i will infract you!

[Mantikore]

i support both, but i have a feeling its not going to happen. well, number 2 might be a possibility

[Clover]

Lmao, why the FUCK was this posted in my profile?

[Dfg]

I am glad Totse.info already have this covered

[-SpectraL]

I strongly advised in M&A several times in several threads there to make M&A viewable to the public, and three-quarters of the mods just laughed, ridiculed and scorned the idea, including Zok. They know they can't continue the "Us vs Them" mentality as well with an open management platform, and they pretty well came right out and said there's lots of things they wouldn't want the general public to know about. Now what the fuck would you not want the public to know about? Your dirty underwear? Your smelly socks? Your first handjob? Makes no sense. Anything you find in there has a direct impact on the way the community develops, and so the community should be fully involved in such a process. Slinking around in the shadows gossiping and accusing, pointing fingers and hatching plans under cover will never do one damned bit of good for us. You'd think these fools would realize that by now.

[NamelessNom4d]

I completely agree with this thread. The management here needs to be changed and this is really all that needs to be done to get rid of corruption. It would probably stir up a big shitstorm for a while though...

[-SpectraL]

All they'll do is switch to SlashNet and hatch their evil plans from there.

[TheDarkRodent]

Originally Posted by -SpectraL

All they'll do is switch to SlashNet and hatch their evil plans from there.

Well realistically I only tossed the #modz in there because it was in the rule for moderator behavior. Bit it does not take a rocket scientist to know that if a group of people really want to meet in a clandestine fashion you are not going to stop them. The main thing is the secrecy in M&A. But still the IRC version of M&A should grant read access to the regular users.

[poast-bortem!]

inb4thisthreadchangesnothing

[-SpectraL]

Yep. Make the #modz and the M&A viewable... and not just from here on in... show them all what these jackasses have been saying behind their backs all this time... show them who doesn't belong on the mod team at all.

[Thank Me!]

Inb4aadmincomzinndsayznoclozezthreadndmovztodatras hcan

[-SpectraL]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Inb4aadmincomzinndsayznoclozezthreadndmovztodatras hcan

You're right.

Now quiet you impostor.

[Thank Me!]

Originally Posted by -SpectraL

You're right.

Now quiet you impostor.

you and me go way back spectral, its nice to see you where the grass is greener

[-SpectraL]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

you and me go way back spectral, its nice to see you where the grass is greener

We do?? Damn. Who the hell are you anyways? Inquiring minds need to know!

[Vizier]

Totally agreed but I think we've all realized Zok and the rest don't give a fuck about us.

[Thank Me!]

Originally Posted by -SpectraL

We do?? Damn. Who the hell are you anyways? Inquiring minds need to know!

never mind that

[TheDarkRodent]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

never mind that

^Impostor^

[takedrugs_killpeople]

I agree, fuck the mods. Im going to beat tcc's ass if i ever see him on the street

[-SpectraL]

Originally Posted by Derodentrant

^Impostor^

Yep... that's not the real Snoopy. But he could be an ally. Not sure yet.

[Dr rocker]

Originally Posted by -spectral

yep... That's not the real snoopy. But he could be an ally. Not sure yet.

عدو عدوي هو صديقي

[-SpectraL]

Originally Posted by Dr rocker

عدو عدوي هو صديقي

Enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Needtoknow]

Or maybe because its like a teachers staff room? You don't want kids coming it to fuck with your nice clean area. Just a thought.

[negative_zero]

deodorant = spectral

[-SpectraL]

Originally Posted by negative_zero

deodorant = spectral

wrong,,, tDR, DaGuru and myself are all different members with almost the same opinions.

[Clover]

I think that this whole thing is...stupid. On totse, was the admin forum not secret? Yep...I guess it's just human to want to know what's going on in secret...but I know the mods...I don't give 2 flying fucks what they're saying because well...you know...lol...It's like the group of retards over in the corner of the lunchroom...no, I don't care what you're saying. If you made it public, I wouldn't even pay attention.


Though I do like a lot of the mods, don't get me wrong...but I don't give a shit what they're saying behind closed doors.

[Clover]

Now, for the real meat: It's zok's private website. Nothing you say matters. Literally, he doesn't have to do ANYTHING he doesn't want to with his personal website, and he can do ANYTHING he wants. Your bitching and whining about the rules is going to lead to you, bitching and whining...that's it. If you don't like the rules here, you can:

A: Make your own website. Here, you'll have all the control you want.
B: Find another website to go to that you like.


Those are your options. The rules here aren't going to change, you're going to do nothing to make it change. Period. End. Of. Story.

As much as I hate to tell someone those are your options, because I hate being told 'your option is to leave', be realistic...those ARE indeed your only options. I didn't make those, it's just the way life is.

[negative_zero]

Originally Posted by -SpectraL

wrong,,, tDR, DaGuru and myself are all different members with almost the same opinions.

i dont believe you

[TheDarkRodent]

Originally Posted by negative_zero

deodorant = spectral

Originally Posted by -SpectraL

wrong,,, tDR, DaGuru and myself are all different members with almost the same opinions.

Originally Posted by negative_zero

i dont believe you

You are just butthurt because I disagreed with this lame excuse for a suggestion.

Originally Posted by negative_zero

Bring it !!! :med:

But hey, if you had been paying attention you would have known that I encourage others to believe I am someone or others alt. The more you tards believe that the more layers between the real me and your sorry ass.

Now if you would like to weigh in on the suggestion in the OP, which is the topic at hand, in an intelligent fashion please do so. Otherwise go back to your content-less, lame ass, rejected ideas like this.

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=139139

[TheDarkRodent]

Originally Posted by Unwyred

I don't think the M&A confidentiality should be removed. M&A is like the PM system where mods can converse and get on the same page with a particular issue or idea. Stuff that is decided upon there is posted in the News from M&A section. What I do think is that the frequency of updates there should be vastly increased.

If M&A were to be made public, we might as well make everyone's PM's public as well.

I don't really think the disobeying an administrator rule has much of a place. None of the mods are allowed to use it and if someone disobeys an administrator for whatever reason, Zok or one of the other admins can hand out a custom infraction for whatever offence has been taken. This would take the confusion out of the entire situation for new mods or mods who have misused this infraction...

As for the off-topic post rule, I agree for the most part on this as you've outlined it; many times even mods are the ones who de-rail the conversation with a first off-topic post. Changing this rule to reflect this could help reduce the confusion for both mod and user alike.

We both know that is an awful analogy. The PM system is not a forum where a group of regular users who have access to certain features meet to decide things out of view of the user base. Is this the double talk that the admins came up with to counter this suggestion?

[-SpectraL]

For example, when selecting new mod material, they'll use M&A as a handy gathering point/hiding place to shit all over a worthy candidate. So you get some dipshit who has control of the site in there knocking out great member after great member due to personal grudges, knowing full well they can pull their bullshit there and not have community to answer to for it. Just a convenient little hidey-hole where they can more freely fuck people over for no good reason and have nobody know about it. Don't buy this double-talk of theirs about "they need a private place"... all that is is more smoke and mirrors so they can more freely continue their chronic bullshit. Force them out into the light of day, I say. There should be NOTHING to hide.

[negative_zero]

Originally Posted by Derodentrant

You are just butthurt because I disagreed with this lame excuse for a suggestion.



But hey, if you had been paying attention you would have known that I encourage others to believe I am someone or others alt. The more you tards believe that the more layers between the real me and your sorry ass.

Now if you would like to weigh in on the suggestion in the OP, which is the topic at hand, in an intelligent fashion please do so. Otherwise go back to your content-less, lame ass, rejected ideas like this.

http://www.zoklet.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=139139

not convinced

[zuperxtreme]

Originally Posted by Dfg

I am glad Totse.info already have this covered

Give it time.

Originally Posted by Clover

I think that this whole thing is...stupid. On totse, was the admin forum not secret? Yep...I guess it's just human to want to know what's going on in secret...but I know the mods...I don't give 2 flying fucks what they're saying because well...you know...lol...It's like the group of retards over in the corner of the lunchroom...no, I don't care what you're saying. If you made it public, I wouldn't even pay attention.


Though I do like a lot of the mods, don't get me wrong...but I don't give a shit what they're saying behind closed doors.

Clover is right.

Back in Totse we were all happy if Jeff poked his nose in a thread, let alone make a change to the website.
Zok is taking the same path unfortunately. He was very active when the migration occurred (made all the themes, added youtube support, smilies, upgraded and bought legit software, upgraded then changed servers, deals with people bitching about infractions, avatars, sigs, etc etc), but since the user base is by definition anti-establishment we all just like to hate on the admins.
Of course this doesn't mean that the administration is 100% on everything, but they've been doing more good than bad.
Yeah there are a bunch of rotten apples, but I don't think we can do much about that.

tl;dr: Zok isn't a bad dude, we've just pushed him to act like he does now.

[DaGuru]

Originally Posted by zuperxtreme

Give it time.



but since the user base is by definition anti-establishment we all just like to hate on the admins.

No, actually that is a bunch of bullshit and empty rhetoric....the kind of "explanation" that Zok keeps himself so warm at night with while ignoring the REALITIES of the situation.

Lousy leaders get shit tons of grief, THAT is the simple and common sense explanation. Just take a look at so many REAL WORLD *gasp* (I know its hard to talk about that, just bear with me stepping out of Zoklet Fantasy World for a moment) organizations that are also anti-establishment, but still have great leadership.

Maybe its the Mafia, maybe its a biker gang like the Hell's Angels or Pagans.....but there are PLENTY of badass anti-establishment entities that don't give their leaders the kind of shit Zok deserves. Its because they RESPECT their leaders (something Zok has a very hard time garnishing, respect)...and they realize they do a good job.

Nice try in your attempt at sugar-coating Zok's failures though. Its whimsical to walk away thinking..."that is just the way of the world of things"....and pretend like ANYONE would have fucked it all up just as bad.

Originally Posted by zuperxtreme

Zok isn't a bad dude, we've just pushed him to act like he does now

You have that completely bass ackwards. Zok pushed many of us to do/be what we are now, all because he really is that stupid, cowardly and stubborn. Zok changed us as a userbase.....both collectively, and as individuals to what we would be willing to "give" this website.

What exactly do you think Zok was "pushed into doing" anyhow? What, he took 2 more steps backwards further into the shadows, and this is "doing something" in your mind?

[zuperxtreme]

Originally Posted by DaGuru

Maybe its the Mafia, maybe its a biker gang like the Hell's Angels or Pagans.....but there are PLENTY of badass anti-establishment entities that don't give their leaders the kind of shit Zok deserves. Its because they RESPECT their leaders (something Zok has a very hard time garnishing, respect)...and they realize they do a good job.

The reason Mafia or biker goons don't give lip to their leader is because their leaders are more of an asshole than they are. If you want to play with that metaphor: Zok should just permanently ban anyone and everyone that speaks badly about him.

Nice try in your attempt at sugar-coating Zok's failures though. Its whimsical to walk away thinking..."that is just the way of the world of things"....and pretend like ANYONE would have fucked it all up just as bad.

I'm not sugarcoating anything. If you'd read my post you'll see that I give the good and the bad. While all of Zok's, and the administrations, naysayers focus on the bad. That's a clear sign of a bad argument.

You have that completely bass ackwards. Zok pushed many of us to do/be what we are now, all because he really is that stupid, cowardly and stubborn. Zok changed us as a userbase.....both collectively, and as individuals to what we would be willing to "give" this website.

I think it's more like you guys pushed each other into what you are now, Zok was just the excuse. A common reason to bitch about something. The people who contribute to the site aren't affected by Zok and the drama. They come here to have a good time and keep posting.

What exactly do you think Zok was "pushed into doing" anyhow? What, he took 2 more steps backwards further into the shadows, and this is "doing something" in your mind?

Zok was pushed into having to be one of those shadow admins. He wasn't like that in the beginning, he posted all the time. Now what happens when Zok posts something? The thread is instantly derailed.
So why bother posting if it'll do more harm than good?
He mods and posts in his forum, where the Zok-hunters don't bother lurking.


Don't misinterpret what I'm trying to say, I'm just trying to give an objective and unbiased opinion on the matter. There are things I like and others I don't, but the point is trying to fix the problem, not make it worse.

[DaGuru]

Originally Posted by zuperxtreme

The reason Mafia or biker goons don't give lip to their leader is because their leaders are more of an asshole than they are. If you want to play with that metaphor: Zok should just permanently ban anyone and everyone that speaks badly about him.

Alright, we get it.....you think Zok is a "nice" guy. Who gives a fuck though, besides his IRL friends? Most nice guys don't make the greatest leaders, and I myself believe probably at least 70%+ of the userbase should have been perma-banned long ago.

Or are you one of these Quantity Over Quality guys?

Originally Posted by zuperxtreme

If you'd read my post you'll see that I give the good and the bad

I'm sorry, I didn't witness ANY of the "bad" about Zok from your fingertips. Could you please quote me your last posts where you got into all of that, I seemed to have missed it.

Originally Posted by zuperxtreme

I think it's more like you guys pushed each other into what you are now, Zok was just the excuse. A common reason to bitch about something

No, actually I DID at one time give Zok some respect....as well as give him multiple chances to have some kind of civil and ADULT discourse with me. Whether publicly or privately. What you see from my keyboard now IS the end result because of Zok's actions...and not any "agenda" I had from my end.

Hell, even if you don't believe my particular scenario...or anyone else's, then answer this very SIMPLE question. Why is it as more time goes on, more people leave Zoklet's side? Whether as posters, friends, staff members, whatever.....he makes more problems and enemies. What IS your answer to all of that Zuper, if not some obvious flaw and weakness for the cowardly little pissant's way of going about things?

InB4 "the world likes to hate" or some other EMPTY RHETORIC excusing Zok for everything he has fucked up.

Originally Posted by =zuperxtreme

Zok was pushed into having to be one of those shadow admins. He wasn't like that in the beginning, he posted all the time. Now what happens when Zok posts something? The thread is instantly derailed.
So why bother posting if it'll do more harm than good?

Again you are more or less falling onto the argument of "it could happen to anyone". And that is bullshit. Do you REALLY think stronger personalities like myself or Spectral could ever be pushed into the shadows? Zok didn't "have to be pushed" into anything. He is a cowardly and very unsophisticated fool....who besides his meager math and coding skills isn't very bright about much. THAT is why he was sent to the shadows, because a little boy personna can't handle posting with the big boys.....even WITH all of the perks of being site owner and all of his silly powertripping games.

I mean Christ...he has been SO CHILDISH about all of this, from the very beginning. Remember his....."I don't want to give people avatars, cuz I want to give them out as rewards or to contest winners". He had a community as diverse, eclectic, badass, and crazy as was Totse's userbase.......and he thought giving them a 1st grader star or sticker on their paper was a way to "build" a userbase/website/community?

Are you fuckin kidding me?

[zuperxtreme]

Originally Posted by DaGuru

Alright, we get it.....you think Zok is a "nice" guy. Who gives a fuck though, besides his IRL friends? Most nice guys don't make the greatest leaders, and I myself believe probably at least 70%+ of the userbase should have been perma-banned long ago.

Or are you one of these Quantity Over Quality guys?

I'm not sure if you're one of the Internet free speech believers, I don't care to follow, but do you really think banning 70+% of the userbase is good for the site? ...

I'm a quality over quantity guy, btw, but there are limits to both.

Originally Posted by DaGuru

I'm sorry, I didn't witness ANY of the "bad" about Zok from your fingertips. Could you please quote me your last posts where you got into all of that, I seemed to have missed it.

I acknowledged that there are bad, I didn't give concrete examples. Here are some: I dislike the time there are between updates, the way everything seems so secretive, the bias towards some administrators/users, unfair bans and infractions, etc. I understand why people don't like the admins, but I also understand the admins point of view. The majority of work is done by 3 people: Zok, Fish and wires (gasp!). This all of course within their free time away from work and etc, without any compensation for their (lost) time.

Sure, it's their "job" though, right? They should just shut up and do what there were appointed to do...

Originally Posted by DaGuru

No, actually I DID at one time give Zok some respect....as well as give him multiple chances to have some kind of civil and ADULT discourse with me. Whether publicly or privately. What you see from my keyboard now IS the end result because of Zok's actions...and not any "agenda" I had from my end.

So an Admin of 200+ users has to sit down, set aside time, and speak to an individual user about his problems, likes, dislikes and concerns about said Admin's website? C'mon. Try asking anywhere else to speak with an admin with a large community if you could have some free time together to discuss the evolution and general dislikes with the site. Sure, in an ideal world it would be nice to get input from everyone individually, but this is a forum, not an instant messenger.

No I'm not falling for the "shit happens, move on" thinking, I'm just trying to point out that you're not going to make everyone 100% happy, without banning 70% of the user base at least.

Originally Posted by DaGuru

Hell, even if you don't believe my particular scenario...or anyone else's, then answer this very SIMPLE question. Why is it as more time goes on, more people leave Zoklet's side? Whether as posters, friends, staff members, whatever.....he makes more problems and enemies. What IS your answer to all of that Zuper, if not some obvious flaw and weakness for the cowardly little pissant's way of going about things?

InB4 "the world likes to hate" or some other EMPTY RHETORIC excusing Zok for everything he has fucked up.

The reason is pretty much the ambiance of the community.
Now-a-days it's more about bitching and drama than any fun or interesting posts. That's not Zok or any Admins (direct) doing, it's the direct repercussions of letting the users have a say about whatever they want. Again, maybe if we banned all the trolls and idiots we'd have a smarter/more civil board, but that's not the point, is it?

There's a couple of us that still contribute and try to look past it, but a lot of people just can't be bothered. Also, don't bunch everyone that left the community as Admin haters who are looking for something better out of spite. A lot of them just moved on for personal reasons.

Again you are more or less falling onto the argument of "it could happen to anyone". And that is bullshit. Do you REALLY think stronger personalities like myself or Spectral could ever be pushed into the shadows? Zok didn't "have to be pushed" into anything. He is a cowardly and very unsophisticated fool....who besides his meager math and coding skills isn't very bright about much. THAT is why he was sent to the shadows, because a little boy personna can't handle posting with the big boys.....even WITH all of the perks of being site owner and all of his silly powertripping games.

I mean Christ...he has been SO CHILDISH about all of this, from the very beginning. Remember his....."I don't want to give people avatars, cuz I want to give them out as rewards or to contest winners". He had a community as diverse, eclectic, badass, and crazy as was Totse's userbase.......and he thought giving them a 1st grader star or sticker on their paper was a way to "build" a userbase/website/community?

Are you fuckin kidding me?

You guys, with stronger personalities, probably wouldn't be pushed into the shadows, but your users would be.
The problem is finding a balance between no freedom and too much, letting users say and do what they want and not. On one hand you have a diverse community that does and says what they want(IE: You and I discussing the admins behavior and actions), on the other you have a strict forum with less idiots, but alas less people, less community, less posts, less website.

If anyone has been childish it's the people bitching about anything and everything, Zok took a step aside and let someone else run the place( yeah, yeah, Fish hasn't been very active either) and that shows maturity.

Also, Avatars, sigs and etc? At the beginning people were "THIS SHIT WOULDN'T FLY IN TOTSE, FAGGOT!". Zok's responce was: "Fine, not everyone gets avatars, but lets let people who want them win them".
Thanks and rep? Voted and removed/added.
Signatures? Not accepted at first, people suggested it, then the decision was kept.
Youtube? No way it was in Totse, what are you, crazy? Suggested and added.

Not everyone in Zoklet( and Totse) is/was a hardcore badass, a lot of people like contests and "winning" stuff, reading funny shit and learning something new. Contests gives a sense of accomplishment and a bigger e-peen, so what's the problem?
The badass posters, who haven't moved on for "x" reason (Not everyone moved on because they hate Zok...) still post from time to time(ie: bloodydiaperman).

Aaaaanyways, good talking about the same stuff over and over again, its refreshing.

PS: Good job not quoting everything and answering just what you want though.

[DECI4]

Originally Posted by zuperxtreme

I'm not sure if you're one of the Internet free speech believers, I don't care to follow, but do you really think banning 70+% of the userbase is good for the site? ...

I'm a quality over quantity guy, btw, but there are limits to both.



I acknowledged that there are bad, I didn't give concrete examples. Here are some: I dislike the time there are between updates, the way everything seems so secretive, the bias towards some administrators/users, unfair bans and infractions, etc. I understand why people don't like the admins, but I also understand the admins point of view. The majority of work is done by 3 people: Zok, Fish and wires (gasp!). This all of course within their free time away from work and etc, without any compensation for their (lost) time.

Sure, it's their "job" though, right? They should just shut up and do what there were appointed to do...



So an Admin of 200+ users has to sit down, set aside time, and speak to an individual user about his problems, likes, dislikes and concerns about said Admin's website? C'mon. Try asking anywhere else to speak with an admin with a large community if you could have some free time together to discuss the evolution and general dislikes with the site. Sure, in an ideal world it would be nice to get input from everyone individually, but this is a forum, not an instant messenger.

No I'm not falling for the "shit happens, move on" thinking, I'm just trying to point out that you're not going to make everyone 100% happy, without banning 70% of the user base at least.



The reason is pretty much the ambiance of the community.
Now-a-days it's more about bitching and drama than any fun or interesting posts. That's not Zok or any Admins (direct) doing, it's the direct repercussions of letting the users have a say about whatever they want. Again, maybe if we banned all the trolls and idiots we'd have a smarter/more civil board, but that's not the point, is it?

There's a couple of us that still contribute and try to look past it, but a lot of people just can't be bothered. Also, don't bunch everyone that left the community as Admin haters who are looking for something better out of spite. A lot of them just moved on for personal reasons.



You guys, with stronger personalities, probably wouldn't be pushed into the shadows, but your users would be.
The problem is finding a balance between no freedom and too much, letting users say and do what they want and not. On one hand you have a diverse community that does and says what they want(IE: You and I discussing the admins behavior and actions), on the other you have a strict forum with less idiots, but alas less people, less community, less posts, less website.

If anyone has been childish it's the people bitching about anything and everything, Zok took a step aside and let someone else run the place( yeah, yeah, Fish hasn't been very active either) and that shows maturity.

Also, Avatars, sigs and etc? At the beginning people were "THIS SHIT WOULDN'T FLY IN TOTSE, FAGGOT!". Zok's responce was: "Fine, not everyone gets avatars, but lets let people who want them win them".
Thanks and rep? Voted and removed/added.
Signatures? Not accepted at first, people suggested it, then the decision was kept.
Youtube? No way it was in Totse, what are you, crazy? Suggested and added.

Not everyone in Zoklet( and Totse) is/was a hardcore badass, a lot of people like contests and "winning" stuff, reading funny shit and learning something new. Contests gives a sense of accomplishment and a bigger e-peen, so what's the problem?
The badass posters, who haven't moved on for "x" reason (Not everyone moved on because they hate Zok...) still post from time to time(ie: bloodydiaperman).

Aaaaanyways, good talking about the same stuff over and over again, its refreshing.

PS: Good job not quoting everything and answering just what you want though.

Do they throw you a bone to bark for the admins or have you just taken it upon yourself to to speak for them?

[zuperxtreme]

I'm just speaking my mind.

[DECI4]

Originally Posted by zuperxtreme

I'm just speaking my mind.

Good answer, you almost had me convinced.