LSA Morning Glory Extraction

[Manifesto]

Hey,

My friend was wondering if it would be possible to extract LSA from morning glory seeds using the following method:

1. About 500 seeds would be ground
2. The ground seeds would be dissolved in a solvent, such as ethanol
3. The solvent would be filtered leaving the seed gunk behind
4. Steps two and three would be repeated 3-4 times
5. The solution, which would now be mostly alkaloids and solvent, would have a certain amount of tartaric acid added to convert the alkaloids to salt form.
6. The solvent would be evaporated off, and the resulting salts would be relatively pure LSA tartrate.

Is this viable? If so, how much tartaric acid would be necessary?

[stateofhack]

You would get brown shitty tar. This would work, but your going to need a CC at the very least! Even then the yields would be minimal, you would have process large amounts of solvent and plant material to get it

[Manifesto]

Originally Posted by stateofhack

You would get brown shitty tar. This would work, but your going to need a CC at the very least! Even then the yields would be minimal, you would have process large amounts of solvent and plant material to get it

CC?

[stateofhack]

Column chromatography, sorry.

[Manifesto]

Well, He's not a chemist, so no chromatography, and even low yields would be alright with him (where he lives seeds cost maybe 100 for a dollar). Assuming he used about 500 seeds, about how much of the actual alkaloids would he retain? Although this is certainly not a chemically advanced extraction of LSA-tartrate, as I said, he is no chemist. But, would the yield be considerably lower than the typical naphtha-ethanol extraction?

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by stateofhack

You would get brown shitty tar.

This.

Ethanol is going to dissolve more ergoclavines (read, puking your guts out) than water will. Ethanol is also going to dissolve more random oils, tars and the like than water will.

Of course, water is going to dissolve some crap. You can fix this with an a/b. Keep everything buffered so you don't just precipitate fuckloads of lysergic acid. However, if you do precipitate fuckloads of LA, be sure to give it to us for our nefarious purpouses.

How, umm, ghetto are you feeling? 'cause you can probably get to at least some half-decent gunk with evaporated safflower-oil washed CWE. Or, shiny little crystals...

[Manifesto]

So as I understand I should use cold water as opposed to ethanol or some other strong solvent? That sounds reasonable.

Also, the bit about safflower oil? Could you explain, because I'm feeling pretty ghetto

[JoePedo]

If you put veggie oil - any veggie oil - on top of your CWE and shake, and then put it through a sep funnel (plastic bag, lol)... it will prevent the seed oils floating on top of the water from being incorporated into the evaporate crust.

Theoretically, at least.

[JoePedo]

Oh, and on a seperate note... Lsaemonade works really fucking well, and I'm on a few sips.

[Manifesto]

At the risk of sounding like a completely ignorant noob...

What does CWE stand for? I'm not used to the lingo :\
And so adding an oil to the solution would do what exactly? Allow me to evaporate off pure crystals as opposed to alkaloids+other crap?

[golieman9]

CWE=Cold Water Extraction

[Irukanji]

^thanked for adding to my dictionary(mentally).

I believe the water causes the oils to float on the surface, and(also maybe) the oil binds with the bad shit and floats to the top. LSA wont bind with the oil, right?(or something in it) where as the rest of the shit will.

Something like that...

Basically.....Oil float on water, binds with bad shit, good stuff goes out bottom.

[HeaT]

Originally Posted by wolfy_9005

^thanked for adding to my dictionary(mentally).

I believe the water causes the oils to float on the surface, and(also maybe) the oil binds with the bad shit and floats to the top. LSA wont bind with the oil, right?(or something in it) where as the rest of the shit will.

Something like that...

Basically.....Oil float on water, binds with bad shit, good stuff goes out bottom.

bingo.
Acid-Base extraction. a beautiful thing. be sure you add a little tartaric acid to the water though, preferably a bit above the pKa of LSA. the alkaloid (good stuff) will convert to the tartrate form, which is only soluble in water (and other polar solvents) unless the alkaloids are in freebase form (theyre in tartrate) they wont dissolve in the oil (nonpolar), which will dissolve lots of plant oils and ergoclavines. magic. separate, evaporate, enjoy. or couple with diethylamine.

[Irukanji]

I've been learning

And lurking teaches you alot.

Gonna make a ghetto sep funnel using an old coffee jar(glass w/ plastic lid) with a tap in the lid. Fill up, turn upside down and seperate. Would i have to add a breather tube to stop the shit from no flowing out?(like with a straw with a finger on the end)? Bit of silicone tubing would work i guess....

[Pringles]

OMFG! For the past two weeks two of my friends and I have talking about how to do the same shit. We might try to make some over spring break and we have a friend who is a serious druggy who is willing to test it out. Thanks for the info!

[stateofhack]

Originally Posted by Pringles

OMFG! For the past two weeks two of my friends and I have talking about how to do the same shit. We might try to make some over spring break and we have a friend who is a serious druggy who is willing to test it out. Thanks for the info!

[Manifesto]

Alright. Thanks, everyone, this was a lot more useful than reading the 4,000,000 reports on Erowid of people eating plain ground seeds and dying from nausea

So after adding tartaric acid to the CWE I add some safflower oil and evap off the water, leaving behind some nice crystals and a bunch of oil, whereupon the crystals are filtered off and dried?

[Manifesto]

Originally Posted by Pringles

OMFG! For the past two weeks two of my friends and I have talking about how to do the same shit. We might try to make some over spring break and we have a friend who is a serious druggy who is willing to test it out. Thanks for the info!

If your friend is a "serious druggy," shouldn't he have access to some of the... more sophisticated ergot compounds

[fcknut]

Originally Posted by harry101

So after adding tartaric acid to the CWE I add some safflower oil and evap off the water, leaving behind some nice crystals and a bunch of oil, whereupon the crystals are filtered off and dried?

I dunno if you should plan on getting crystals out of this... Maybe you will, I wouldn't know having never done any such thing, but I'd imagine you're more likely to end up with some "sticky stuff"

Perhaps you should just drink the water? or do a standard acid/base extraction?

[Manifesto]

I don't want to drink the water because the result should be portable, such as placed in a capsule or something like that. I'd rather pursue this process, as I have access to the materials involved.

[King Owl]

This is relevant to my interests... I'm looking to get as clean a crystalline precipitate from argyreia nervosa as I can for standardising dosages...

[Von Bass]

As far as I can tell from the thread & JP;

Originally Posted by harry101

So after adding tartaric acid to the CWE I add some safflower oil

Yup.

Originally Posted by harry101

and evap off the water, leaving behind some nice crystals and a bunch of oil, whereupon the crystals are filtered off and dried?

Nope.

One removes and discards all of the vegetable oil, and then evaporates the remaining water, yielding, I imagine, a smallish quantity of sticky tar like crap. See HeaT's post, #13, for an explanation of the theory behind these actions. Scrape it up and divide it into capsules if you wish. I would consider some 10% ammonia and some chloroform/DCM though, especially if a crystalline substance is really where you want to get to.

[Manifesto]

Originally Posted by Von Bass

One removes and discards all of the vegetable oil, and then evaporates the remaining water, yielding, I imagine, a smallish quantity of sticky tar like crap. See HeaT's post, #13, for an explanation of the theory behind these actions. Scrape it up and divide it into capsules if you wish. I would consider some 10% ammonia and some chloroform/DCM though, especially if a crystalline substance is really where you want to get to.

Alright. Tar is fine, as long as it's got the good stuff in it
How do I remove the oil from the water solution? Someone recommended some plastic bag apparatus? What's that?

[Von Bass]

Originally Posted by harry101

Alright. Tar is fine, as long as it's got the good stuff in it
How do I remove the oil from the water solution? Someone recommended some plastic bag apparatus? What's that?

picture, thousand words etc.

Lack of time to explain, please ask if you still don't understand the concept.

[Manifesto]

oh, that's... ridiculously simple. thanks!

So, how much tartaric and how much oil would I need per seed?

[incorporated]

Originally Posted by harry101

Alright. Tar is fine, as long as it's got the good stuff in it
How do I remove the oil from the water solution? Someone recommended some plastic bag apparatus? What's that?

Cut a corner from the ziplock bag and hold so that the corner you cut off is at the bottom. Keep this pinched off while you pour the mixture to be separated inside the baggie. Allow the two layers to settle out. The liquid with greater density will be at the bottom and can be separated by unpinching the cut corner and repinching after you allow the last bit of your bottom layer through.

Might not be the best explaination.

[Von Bass]

Originally Posted by harry101

So, how much tartaric and how much oil would I need per seed?

You're starting to ask to be spoon fed now Not cool.

Work out a maximum mass of desired quantity of desired alkaloids. Convert to moles, work out mass of tartaric required, double, add a gram for good luck. I hope you've taken into account that lysergic amides tend to be fairly unstable, especially to UV light, and perhaps also to our kindly chlorinated tap water. Use an alternative.

[Manifesto]

Originally Posted by Von Bass

You're starting to ask to be spoon fed now Not cool.

I'm not asking to be spoonfed, I just don't know much about chemistry and am looking for some help. And yes, I know the above about the instability of LSAs.

[Tick Tock]

Originally Posted by Von Bass

As far as I can tell from the thread & JP;



Yup.



Nope.

One removes and discards all of the vegetable oil, and then evaporates the remaining water, yielding, I imagine, a smallish quantity of sticky tar like crap. See HeaT's post, #13, for an explanation of the theory behind these actions. Scrape it up and divide it into capsules if you wish. I would consider some 10% ammonia and some chloroform/DCM though, especially if a crystalline substance is really where you want to get to.

Are you saying that DCM/chloroform would be the suitable solvents for recrystallization of this compound? Are you referring to single-solvent recrystallization with either solvent, or multi-solvent recrystallization with both?

Also, what purpose does the ammonia serve? Does the compound need to be basic before it can be recrystallized?

[Manifesto]

This is all helpful- but really, how much tartaric acid is necessary? Just in terms of proportions per ug or mg of LSA, and I can do my own calculations from there.

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by harry101

If your friend is a "serious druggy," shouldn't he have access to some of the... more sophisticated ergot compounds

maybe......... but we want to make the stuff ourselves. Once we get it down to a near perfect way of doing so, we could maybe profit by teaching other's. It will be a scientific experiment. I should do this for the county science fair. LOL

[Cytosine]

This is relevant to my interests.

For anyone who has tried this: was the yield enough for a decent trip? I haven't had LSD in over a year, and I'm looking to try a new drug. Thing is, I'd like to take a couple friends with me, too.

I'm not looking to go past the simple CWE with oil - I mainly don't want to eat a bag of seeds and then puke for an hour straight.

Oh, and to the guy trying LSAmonade; how'd that night go?

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by harry101

I'm not asking to be spoonfed...

Generally, asking other people to do one's molar maths is considered spoonfeeding around here, and with good reason. OTOH, I'll give credit that you may have had no experience with this. Long story short, chemists care about molecular weight for only one reason, 'n that is to get their molar ratios where they want them. Without that, we'd skip the whole thing.

Say you've got a sodium... err, chlorite, I think... oxidation going on. Something like NaO2Cl. Say you only need one oxygen molecule per molecule of other stuff. Since NaO2Cl decomposes to table salt - NaCl - leaving O2, and you only need O1, you will need a 2:1 molar ratio of other stuff : NaO2Cl, for one little O per other stuff.

Lysergic acid amide, I believe, has a molecular weight of about 268.31. This means that 6.022 * 10^23 or so molecules of it will weigh 268.31 grams.

Let's be lazy. Its molecular weight is now 268, damnit. And, quite naturally, this would mean that one gram of LSA is 1/268th of a mole. Which my calculator swears is about 0.37 moles.

Tartaric acid, otoh, has a molecular weight of about 150.09. Which, as we'll note, makes a single gram of it 1/150th of a mole. 'n that, of course, is pretty well exactly 2/3rds of one percent.

Doing some horribly inappropriate rounding, we'll call "0.3%" something like "1/3rd" of a percent, and "0.(6)%" something like "2/3rds" of a percent. And, to keep it lazy, we'll need approximately twice the weight of tartaric acid as we expect to have alkaloid, for a molar 1:1 salt.

This is obviously guestimated bullshit, because 150 * 2 is 300, not 268. But it's close enough, and we'll have a slight surplus. In fact, we'll have just over a 1.1:1 molar ratio going on, which is usually considered pretty spiffy. In non-destructive titration, some people like a faint excess except when the situation tells them not to.

Using the fucking search engine, as it's so affectionately called, we discover that...

"The seeds of Ipomoea violacea contain about 0.1% ergot alkaloids"

http://shaman-australis.com.au/shop/...cPath=21_34_86

Some of the more unpleasant of which will end up in your veggie oil, hopefully, and it's up to you to see what percentage of that is likely to be lysergic acid amide derivatives, and what percentage of that is junk. This could actually be to your advantage, because the amide might acidify more readily than the clavines, both allowing careful titration of the acid to projected yields to give a cleaner product... but also, allowing a bicarb soak beforehand to slurp up some of the aqueous gunk, followed by a 1.2:1 titration to the amide content and the washing of the clavines and oils in veggie oil to possibly even yield a slightly cleaner product...

...but, we're ignoring that. 0.1% ergot alkaloids meas 1mg/g. Since the weight ratio is about 2:1 for a molar ratio of 1.1:1, this means you will want about 2 milligrams of tartaric acid per gram of seeds.

Now... go read that again until you know how to do it yourself, because you just know you will want to extract something else from some other plant at some point in the future - and like VB said... we'll tell you how, but we won't do people's math for them.

Have fun.

[Manifesto]

Originally Posted by ImJoeThePedo

Generally, asking other people to do one's molar maths is considered spoonfeeding around here, and with good reason. OTOH, I'll give credit that you may have had no experience with this. Long story short, chemists care about molecular weight for only one reason, 'n that is to get their molar ratios where they want them. Without that, we'd skip the whole thing.

Say you've got a sodium... err, chlorite, I think... oxidation going on. Something like NaO2Cl. Say you only need one oxygen molecule per molecule of other stuff. Since NaO2Cl decomposes to table salt - NaCl - leaving O2, and you only need O1, you will need a 2:1 molar ratio of other stuff : NaO2Cl, for one little O per other stuff.

Lysergic acid amide, I believe, has a molecular weight of about 268.31. This means that 6.022 * 10^23 or so molecules of it will weigh 268.31 grams.

Let's be lazy. Its molecular weight is now 268, damnit. And, quite naturally, this would mean that one gram of LSA is 1/268th of a mole. Which my calculator swears is about 0.37 moles.

Tartaric acid, otoh, has a molecular weight of about 150.09. Which, as we'll note, makes a single gram of it 1/150th of a mole. 'n that, of course, is pretty well exactly 2/3rds of one percent.

Doing some horribly inappropriate rounding, we'll call "0.3%" something like "1/3rd" of a percent, and "0.(6)%" something like "2/3rds" of a percent. And, to keep it lazy, we'll need approximately twice the weight of tartaric acid as we expect to have alkaloid, for a molar 1:1 salt.

This is obviously guestimated bullshit, because 150 * 2 is 300, not 268. But it's close enough, and we'll have a slight surplus. In fact, we'll have just over a 1.1:1 molar ratio going on, which is usually considered pretty spiffy. In non-destructive titration, some people like a faint excess except when the situation tells them not to.

Using the fucking search engine, as it's so affectionately called, we discover that...

"The seeds of Ipomoea violacea contain about 0.1% ergot alkaloids"

http://shaman-australis.com.au/shop/...cPath=21_34_86

Some of the more unpleasant of which will end up in your veggie oil, hopefully, and it's up to you to see what percentage of that is likely to be lysergic acid amide derivatives, and what percentage of that is junk. This could actually be to your advantage, because the amide might acidify more readily than the clavines, both allowing careful titration of the acid to projected yields to give a cleaner product... but also, allowing a bicarb soak beforehand to slurp up some of the aqueous gunk, followed by a 1.2:1 titration to the amide content and the washing of the clavines and oils in veggie oil to possibly even yield a slightly cleaner product...

...but, we're ignoring that. 0.1% ergot alkaloids meas 1mg/g. Since the weight ratio is about 2:1 for a molar ratio of 1.1:1, this means you will want about 2 milligrams of tartaric acid per gram of seeds.

Now... go read that again until you know how to do it yourself, because you just know you will want to extract something else from some other plant at some point in the future - and like VB said... we'll tell you how, but we won't do people's math for them.

Have fun.

Thanks. This was really helpful. I'll do the calculations tonight, and will post a new thread with my procedure/trip report soon. Thanks a lot for this.

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by Cytosine

Oh, and to the guy trying LSAmonade; how'd that night go?

Fuckin' good, nigga.

I knew it was going to be underdosing when I took it (it was the last few ml from an already-consumed bottle, lol), but Lsaemonade is always nausea-free if you don't swallow the seed chunkies, for reasons unknown to science (vinegar extract ain't the same way, lol)... and I got enough of a light little trip that I actually tripped off of it, rather than just some funny-headed stuff with trails and no redeeming purpouse, which was cool...

It was certainly good enough to convince me to redevote myself to the ergoloids, lol.

Originally Posted by Pringles

maybe......... but we want to make the stuff ourselves. Once we get it down to a near perfect way of doing so, we could maybe profit by teaching other's.

This is very much relevant to my interest... but how good are you at recruiting a personal army to throw morning glory seeds at abandoned lots and drainage ditches in service to a psychedelic revolution?

'cause, my brother, mr. appleseed... we're all just workers of the third eye.

[Manifesto]

The correct ratio would thus be roughly 1.78:1 of Tartaric Acid to alkaloids. The density of Tartaric acid is 1.79g/mL, by chance, so if I round them to be equal, and use a 1.79:1 ratio, one mL of Tartaric acid would require 1 kilogram of seeds? Obviously I don't have a kilo of seeds, but is this correct?

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by harry101

Obviously I don't have a kilo of seeds, but is this correct?

Except that tartaric acid has a melting point of well over 100c, and the density given is for the saturated aqueous (H2O) solution, that would be correct.

[skinny love]

i'm an lsa noob with a couple questions. is 3.2 g of morning glory seeds a decent dose? and, what's the easiest, simplest way to prevent nausea (for someone who is not a chemist and doesnt have access to a lot of chemical/lab shit)?

[JoePedo]

Originally Posted by skinny love

i'm an lsa noob with a couple questions. is 3.2 g of morning glory seeds a decent dose?

I'd call it about half a dose, but I'm sure you could get something off it. People have tripped off half that much, so I'm sure you'll get somewhere. All depends on where you want to be...

Originally Posted by skinny love

and, what's the easiest, simplest way to prevent nausea (for someone who is not a chemist and doesnt have access to a lot of chemical/lab shit)?

Lsaemonade.

Not that crystals require equipment or chemicals. But, well, you want the easy way.

[Manifesto]

Now I just need to acquire a scale that can measure in mg.