a few words about forgiveness

[ArmsMerchant]

Forgiveness is essential to spiritual growth. One of the greatest spiritual leaders in history--this long-haired freak known to us as Jesus-- exhorted us to love our enemies and forgive those who harm us. The more recent "A Course in Miracles" is widely cited and quoted and studied--and it all (all 1000+ pages) pretty much boils down to "forgive." The great 60s poster--An Eschatalogical Laundry List--reminds us to "Learn to forgive yourself, again and again and again and again." Still more recently, Deepak Chopra advised us to forgive ourselves for being where we are--that is, to refrain for beating oursleves up for not being as good as we would like. So, what's the big deal?

Suppose someone wronged you. And you stew about it and lose sleep and generally make yourself miserable. And you hate and despise this person. All that hatred does not affect the person you hate--it only hurts yourself. The best thing you can do FOR YOURSELF is to forgive the person--just let it go. Doing stuff like this, BTW, is what Jesus had in mind when he said seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven--all else will be added to you.

When you refuse to forgive, you consign yourself to a hell of your own making.

That said, forgiveness can be enormously difficult. I speak from experience--it took me twenty years to forgive my wife and son for eating some chocolate truffles of mine. At the time, I was still heavily invested in being a fearful, guilt-ridden, greedy asshole--in other words, I thought I was normal. ( Besides, I really really like choc truffles.)

I did not even have a clue as to what it was, until I heard a radio broadcast about international finances, and they spoke of forgiving a debt. Then it clicked--when you forgive someone, they no longer owe you anything--an aplology, reparations, nada--the slate is wiped clean.

Forgiveness goes contrary to many societal norms, and one's ego will fight very hard against it.

[Spacecase]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

Forgiveness is essential to spiritual growth. One of the greatest spiritual leaders in history--this long-haired freak known to us as Jesus-- exhorted us to love our enemies and forgive those who harm us. The more recent "A Course in Miracles" is widely cited and quoted and studied--and it all (all 1000+ pages) pretty much boils down to "forgive." The great 60s poster--An Eschatalogical Laundry List--reminds us to "Learn to forgive yourself, again and again and again and again." So, what's the big deal?

Say someone wronged you. And you stew about it and lose sleep and generally make yourself miserable. And you hate and despise this person. All that hatred does nto affect the person you hate--it only hurts yourself. The best thing you can do FOR YOURSELF is to forgive the person--just let it go. Doing stuff like this, BTW, is what Jesus had in mind when he said seek ye forst the kingdom of Heaven--all else will be added to you.

When you refuse to forgive, you consign yourself to a hell of your own making.

That said, forgiveness is enormously fucking difficult. Forgiveness goes contrary to many societal norms, and one's ego will fight very hard against it.

Beautiful.

Forgiveness isn't the act of thinking "This person did this action which hurt my existence in some way" and then telling yourself to let it go. This solves nothing, only prevents your conscious memory from dwelling on things, but underneath, you can bet its still there. Unless,

The true act of Forgiveness consists of seeing right through the act they've committed. This is done by realizing that any form of pain you feel was caused by somebody else is actually completely, and entirely in head, formulated by you. Even if their intents were malicious, one must realize that when that is the case, its purely one of their ways of expressing their Self-related confusion (identifying with their ego, rather than being in space and being everybody), which ultimately is nothing but a pure illusion caused by our perception of the 4th dimension being linear. Once you realize that above and under it all, regardless of ill intentions on their part, that its completely fake and holds absolutely no deeper meaning other than what you take it for at face value; you can truly forgive.

Its not that they didn't mean it. Its that it literally does not exist.
All acts of malcontent are mirages, and nothing besides.

[Obbe]

I dunno man. How do you forgive someone when they're busying raping you? Or turning your guts into mince meat? I don't think standing up for yourself and for others, and fighting back is really going to inhibit any "spiritual growth".

In fact, I think it's more adding some quality fertilizer to your soil.

[thatsMYdog]

Forgiveness is letting go of resentment

And yes you can forgive your rapist, I did

[Headspin]

Originally Posted by Obbe

I dunno man. How do you forgive someone when they're busying raping you? Or turning your guts into mince meat? I don't think standing up for yourself and for others, and fighting back is really going to inhibit any "spiritual growth".

In fact, I think it's more adding some quality fertilizer to your soil.

I would imagine it to be hard forgiving that in the act but in the end they only have a higher mountain to climb.

[Butcher]

Pretty interesting essay on forgiveness from a game theory point of view:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/24o/eight_sh...es_on_excuses/

Conclusion

In all these stories, the first party wants to credibly pre-commit to a rule, but also has incentives to forgive other people's deviations from the rule. The second party breaks the rules, but comes up with an excuse for why its infraction should be forgiven.

The first party's response is based not only on whether the person's excuse is believable, not even on whether the person's excuse is morally valid, but on whether the excuse can be accepted without straining the credibility of their previous pre-commitment.

Forgiveness is not some black and white thing that is always good or always bad, there are many other considerations. You can punish someone without it being about hatred or revenge.

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by thatsMYdog

Forgiveness is letting go of resentment

And yes you can forgive your rapist, I did

As did my wife, who was gang-raped by Gypsy Jokers when she was riding with the Hells Angels. Started a war between the gangs, too.

[Headspin]

Thread = win

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by Obbe

I dunno man. How do you forgive someone when they're busying raping you? Or turning your guts into mince meat? I don't think standing up for yourself and for others, and fighting back is really going to inhibit any "spiritual growth".

In fact, I think it's more adding some quality fertilizer to your soil.

1. Like I said, forgiveness is not easy--but it is possible.

2. When people speak of "standing up" for yourself, I think they really mean "standing up for the ego." One's Essential Self--the real you--is immortal, invulnerable, has no need to "stand up" to or for anything.

3. "Fighting back" is ego-driven, which is fatal to spiritual growth. I invite you to read about Gandhi.

[Obbe]

All rivers lead to the ocean, right? So what if you think mine is a little muddy?

Spiritual growth goes beyond the individual, it goes beyond humanity, it is an activity the entire universe is participating in, and having an ego isn't "fatal" to this growth at all, it can be distracting and that's all. Without the ego, who would be growing?

I'm not saying forgiveness isn't possible. I just disagree that it's as important as you think it is. I don't think it really matters at all. I don't hold onto grudges because holding onto grudges doesn't feel very good, and that's my only reason. I'm not going to go around telling people they have to forgive others, or else it will be fatal to their spiritual growth - that's just some BS someone made up.

Standing up for yourself feels great. There is no reason to worry or be afraid of anything, not life, not death, and especially not inhibiting spiritual growth. Didn't jesus bring a sword?

[BrokeProphet]

Seriously, the bible was written by people who sought control. What better way to control people if the only education you offer them is to be meek, turn the other cheek, and to forgive.

[bumble]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

Seriously, the bible was written by people who sought control. What better way to control people if the only education you offer them is to be meek, turn the other cheek, and to forgive.

Well, he does have a point there.Christianity represses a lot of things... sexuality being a biggie. Besides, Jesus isn't as nice as you think. Google
"messed up bible passages" or something like that. I think Jesus said something along the lines of bring forth the non-believers unto me and have them slain.

[BrokeProphet]

More importantly if forgiveness is so important, why does jesus or god require you beg for it rather than just give it to you.

Should my enemies beg my forgiveness or should I give it freely. If freely, why doesn't jesus do this?

[-SpectraL]

One eye-opening thing a monastery monk told me once, and I remember it quite clearly... he said, "You can forgive, but you may never forget. That is natural." Just goes to show that even though you have forgiven someone from your heart you are not going to forget what they did.

[Nachismo]

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.In the chain of life, due to human nature sometimes we can hurt ourselves and each other through poor decisions, not maliciousness.In situations like that being able to forgive, restores the integrity of the chain, because you can't go back in time.Honest forgiveness is a gift, and those who truely reciprocate that, enable the bonds of their relationships to remain strong, instead of breaking unexpectedly.

Originally Posted by -SpectraL

One eye-opening thing a monastery monk told me once, and I remember it quite clearly... he said, "You can forgive, but you may never forget. That is natural." Just goes to show that even though you have forgiven someone from your heart you are not going to forget what they did.

This applies to ourselves as well.Plenty of people forgive others for their failings, while being unable to forgive themselves.It's been said that "The wages of sin are death," now regardless of how one feels about sin, there are consequences for every action in this life.The weight of being unable to forgive oneself can be crushing, even to the point of preventing further spiritual growth.

Even after forgiving yourself, the sting can haunt one for a very long time.How many good people treat others more kindly then themselves?The golden rule is meant to apply to everyone.

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

More importantly if forgiveness is so important, why does jesus or god require you beg for it rather than just give it to you.

Should my enemies beg my forgiveness or should I give it freely. If freely, why doesn't jesus do this?

Forgiveness is only important to the one doing the forgiving.

You enemies--if they are wily--should prefer that you NOT forgive them, since that would be in your worst interest.

Please cite the verse in which Jesus says one must beg for forgiveness. I am fairly conversant with the NT, but I must have missed that one.

Actually, God has no reason to forgive, as God cannot be harmed or offended. Note I am NOT referring to the petty deity portrayed in the Bible.

[-SpectraL]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

....Note I am NOT referring to the petty deity portrayed in the Bible.

Sometimes you really crack me up, Arms.

But, ya.. we need to first look at the underlying principles behind the act of forgiveness to understand true forgiveness. Why is it important to forgive? Why would someone want forgiveness? Remember, "love covers a multitude of sins".

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

Please cite the verse in which Jesus says one must beg for forgiveness. I am fairly conversant with the NT, but I must have missed that one.

Actually, God has no reason to forgive, as God cannot be harmed or offended. Note I am NOT referring to the petty deity portrayed in the Bible.

No.

I am afriad you cannot demand biblical verse and in the same post suggest you are not referring to the biblical deity.

The common parlence of our times suggests you don't go to heaven unless you ask for forgiveness. There is no way but through him. You must ask for salvation to receive as per the bible.

If mine enemies want forgiveness, in spectacular wwjd fashion, they must ask for it.

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

I am afriad you cannot demand biblical verse and in the same post suggest you are not referring to the biblical deity.

What? I am entirely confident that he can.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by Obbe

What? I am entirely confident that he can.

I am afriad you cannot demand biblical verse and in the same post suggest you are not referring to the biblical deity

....without being intellectually transparent, is the implication.

Are you stupid enough that I have to point it out to you, or just being Obbe?

[docus]

What about a person who wronged you, ripped your heart out and spat on it again and again, refusing to forgive even the littlest thing you ever did, a sad person, a terrible bloodsucking maggot of a person, who does not love anyone but himself/herself?

I say, when you can't forgive, pity.

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by -SpectraL

Sometimes you really crack me up, Arms.

But, ya.. we need to first look at the underlying principles behind the act of forgiveness to understand true forgiveness. Why is it important to forgive? Why would someone want forgiveness? Remember, "love covers a multitude of sins".

It is important to forgive as there is no surer way to get peace of mind. Carrying a resentment , it has been noted, is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies.

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by BrokeProphet

I am afriad you cannot demand biblical verse and in the same post suggest you are not referring to the biblical deity

Again, I am entirely confident that he can. He can ask you to cite a bible verse, and in the same post refer to a non-biblical god.

I am entirely confident that you realize this and that you just don't want to actually look up the verse.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by Obbe

Again, I am entirely confident that he can. He can ask you to cite a bible verse, and in the same post refer to a non-biblical god.

I am entirely confident that you realize this and that you just don't want to actually look up the verse.

I am afriad you cannot demand biblical verse and in the same post suggest you are not referring to the biblical deity

....without being intellectually transparent, is the implication.

I already posted a part of this verse. John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I-AM the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Now go fuck your mother.

[Obbe]

No, broke, he can ask you to cite a bible verse, and in the same post refer to a non-biblical god. That's what he did. There is nothing intellectually transparent here, other than your posts, that is.

Arms asked you to "Please cite the verse in which Jesus says one must beg for forgiveness". The verse you quoted does not tell us anything about forgiveness or begging for it, it's just a quote of jesus claiming to be the only path to God, whatever that means. I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.

I'm starting to think such a verse doesn't even exist, and that you just made up this whole "must beg for forgiveness" thing.

[BrokeProphet]

Originally Posted by Obbe

...it's just a quote of jesus claiming to be the only path to God, whatever that means. I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.

Yes whatever that means. You don't know, yet are sure it doesn't mean what I suggest? Do you listen to yourself or just drift in and out?

It (the verse) has been taken to mean what nearly any christian preacher in America will tell you, what I have already told Arms and you.

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I find it in bad form to ask for a verse in which jesus says such a thing, and then suggesting that it doesn't even matter b/c god has no reason to forgive. I would attribute such mental midgetry to a cunt like you.

--------

Fuck your whole tangent insect.

[-SpectraL]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

It is important to forgive as there is no surer way to get peace of mind. Carrying a resentment , it has been noted, is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies.

It has been said, "It is better to give than to receive". If one forgives only from a sense of personal gratification/personal gain, the underlying mechanics of forgiveness are often then thrown to the wayside. You must love your neighbor as yourself, and only then will the process of true forgiveness have any place.

[Obbe]

So, broke, you're saying that jesus does not actually say people must beg for his forgiveness anywhere in the bible, people have just interpreted this verse to mean that, and you prefer using this interpretation rather than thinking for yourself? Sure okay.

And it's not "bad form" to ask someone to cite the information they are referring to, while suggesting that the information is wrong. You're just stupid and angry.

[ArmsMerchant]

Bumping, as forgiveness is essential to a spiritual life.

[Obbe]

^Does that even mean anything at all? Then why don't you just say what you mean?

[Atlas]

once you figure it out, it's also a very rewarding experience. Good thread.

[ArmsMerchant]

Originally Posted by Obbe

^Does that even mean anything at all? Then why don't you just say what you mean?

What part of "forgiveness is essential to spiritual growth" did I fail to make sufficiently clear?

[Obbe]

Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant

What part of "forgiveness is essential to spiritual growth" did I fail to make sufficiently clear?

The part where you assert that the statement "forgiveness is essential to spiritual growth", is anything more that someones BS.

It might clear things up for me if you would just reply to this:

Originally Posted by Obbe

All rivers lead to the ocean, right? So what if you think mine is a little muddy?

Spiritual growth goes beyond the individual, it goes beyond humanity, it is an activity the entire universe is participating in, and having an ego isn't "fatal" to this growth at all, it can be distracting and that's all. Without the ego, who would be growing?

I'm not saying forgiveness isn't possible. I just disagree that it's as important as you think it is. I don't think it really matters at all. I don't hold onto grudges because holding onto grudges doesn't feel very good, and that's my only reason. I'm not going to go around telling people they have to forgive others, or else it will be fatal to their spiritual growth - that's just some BS someone made up.

Standing up for yourself feels great. There is no reason to worry or be afraid of anything, not life, not death, and especially not inhibiting spiritual growth. Didn't jesus bring a sword?

[Trix Are For Kids]

Forgiveness is a human concept and thus inherently influenced by human perception. Forgiveness will be attained if you want to forgive. I find that you usually will, although it both is not and is mandatory, what I mean is it can be taken as far as an individual wishes.

Forgiveness to me is not an action. It is a state of mind deeper than simple actions. It represents many things, including peace. It is quite intangible to us because there is no definition. It is what you want it to be.

I think that might answer your question a little Obbe. You take it as far as you want. What else can you do?

[Obbe]

Your post made me think of "Let things be".

[Trix Are For Kids]

Something like that. It is usually the safest advice to life. Also usually the best.

[Obbe]

Maybe. Sometimes being chaotic and spontaneous is "best".

[nutsack]

Originally Posted by Obbe

I dunno man. How do you forgive someone when they're busying raping you? Or turning your guts into mince meat? I don't think standing up for yourself and for others, and fighting back is really going to inhibit any "spiritual growth".

Forgive them as they lay dead at your feet, if it's necessary to protect your life or the lives of those you love. Don't forget to forgive yourself.

[ArmsMerchant]

Obbe deserves our gratitude for clearly demonstrating that knowledge is a function of being. At his present level of evolution, he is simply not capable of understanding how forgiveness is necessary for spiritual growth.

Perhaps in twenty or thirty years he will understand.

[ArmsMerchant]

I really don't have the time or will to attempt to spoonfeed this stuff to y'all--all I can say is, read "The Perennial Philosophy" by Aldous Huxley and "How to Find God" by Deepak Chopra, and you might begin to grasp the concept.