Self-defense handgun & the newer Sig Sauers

[AdMech]

I'm fairly experienced with rifles, but have never owned a handgun. I'll probably be inundating y'all with requests for advice, but I'm trying to Google shit before asking. That said...

TLDR: What handgun model should I get, assuming I have ~$1000 and want a top-of-the-line, extremely reliable pistol for concealed carry? Ideally, one I'll be carrying for decades to come.

***

I have my heart set on purchasing a Sig Sauer, most likely a P226 (it's still small enough for concealed carry, right?). I have a book that mentions the testing done on the P226 by the U.S. Army, and how it was the most reliable gun in the test. (Although Wikipedia claims the Beretta M9 slightly outperformed the Sig, the book says the opposite.) I know I'll be using it for different purposes than the Army, but that still seems to speak well for it.

We do have a lot more choices now; the test was in 1985, IIRC, so maybe there's something better out there. More worrying, last time I asked about Sig Sauers, 5.56 told me the newer ones have reliability problems. This concerns me, to say the least. Does anyone else have experience with the new Sig Sauers?

5.56 recommended I buy an old police-issue West German Sig, but I'm kind of wanting a new gun. But if enough people tell me good things about secondhand ones, I'll reconsider.

The other options I'm looking at now are something by Beretta, for the same reasons as the Sig, or a Heckler & Koch USP, on the recommendation of 5.56 again. Any suggestions appreciated. I'm quite possibly going to be spending a lot of money on this, so I want to get the best I can.

[944]

If you're willing to spend around $1000 I say get a HK

Sig makes real good guns, but IMO HK makes the best pistols I've ever used. P7/P30/HK45/USP are all fantastic guns that I'd recommend looking at.

[ilovechronic]

I don't really think its necessary to spend a grand on a concealed carry gun.

[AdMech]

Then recommend me one that you feel is excellent but affordable, please.

If it's going to stay with me my whole life, and if my life may ever depend on it... well, I'm not looking to spend $1000, but I'd rather have one nice pistol than several poor ones. I do most of my shooting with rifles, so this will probably be one of the only handguns I bring out to the range, too.

Originally Posted by 944

If you're willing to spend around $1000 I say get a HK

Sig makes real good guns, but IMO HK makes the best pistols I've ever used. P7/P30/HK45/USP are all fantastic guns that I'd recommend looking at.

Sounds good. Do you have a preference between P7, P30, and USP? The P30 and USP both look pretty damn nice.

[Gun Lover]

Originally Posted by AdMech

Although Wikipedia claims the Beretta M9 slightly outperformed the Sig

HAHAHA, oh fuck I lol'd. Fuck the M9/ 92F (IMHO).

I agree with ILC, there's no reason to spend $1000 on a concealed carry piece.

My experience: I my West German .45 ACP Sig Sauer P220. Easily one of the finest, most solid firearms I've had the pleasure of shooting. Glock, S&W M&P, Springfield XD -- are all solid firearms that I wouldn't hesitate to carry anywhere.

The P226 is a fine weapon, should you wind up getting one.

[944]

Originally Posted by AdMech

Sounds good. Do you have a preference between P7, P30, and USP? The P30 and USP both look pretty damn nice.

How do you feel about carrying a Full size?

I love my USP, but I have big hands. Many people think the grip is too big/blocky.

The P30 is ergonomically one of the best, but the one I carried for a little while rubbed my side pretty bad

P7's are just super cool, and I hope to have one by summer. They are single stacks so the mag cap is lower


If I was going to buy a new carry gun it'd be a USP compact

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by AdMech

Then recommend me one that you feel is excellent but affordable.

If it's going to stay with me my whole life, and if my life may ever depend on it... well, I'm not looking to spend $1000, but I'd rather have one nice pistol than several poor ones. I do most of my shooting with rifles, so this will probably be one of the only handguns I bring out to the range, too.


Sounds good. Do you have a preference between P7, P30, and USP? The P30 and USP both look pretty damn nice.

Well, the P7 isn't anything like the USP-series so I'll talk about that in a bit.

There is virtually no different performance wise between the P30 and the USP.

The P30 is basically the "next generation" USP and has some features that some people would find desirable, mainly the grip and backstrap can be swapped out with different size pieces to make the pistol fit your hand better. The P30 also has a "standard" rail under the barrel so it is easier to find flashlights that fit it.

Cons about the P30?

It uses a different magazine than the USP and they only import P30 magazines every now and then AND I believe P30 magazines cost $55 each.

The USP, however, has been around since 1994 so mags are easy to find at all the major online gun places. They are a bit more expensive than GLOCK magazines (usually around $40), but if it's not an issue than it's not an issue.

Since the USP doesn't have swappable grip panels, it is best to hold (and rent one out to shoot) one if you can. It also has the old style light rail and if you ever choose to put a light on it you will need to buy an Insight M2 or get a standard rail adapter.

The USP Compact is significantly smaller than the standard USP and if for some reason both the P30 and standard USP don't do it for you, trying out the USP Compact may be a good option.

H&K also makes the P2000 which is kind of an "in between" pistol, it came after the USP but before the P30.

The standard size P2000 is roughly the same as the USP Compact and it take USP Compact magazines, but you can swap out the back of the grip on the P2000 for hand fitment.

I would not recommend the P2000SK as it is really really small and probably not what you are looking for. Though it is a good pistol and on par with the rest of H&K pistols.


The P7 is different altogether.

It is a gas operated, metal framed handgun. You will not be able to touch anything but the 8 shot models for under $1300. And the only ones in your budget have the European style mag release (P7 PSP), where you basically have to push a lever by the magazine and then pull the magazine out with your hand, like a Makarov if you've ever used one.

The P7 uses a "squeeze cock" safety where the front of the grip has to be held down in order for it to fire.

I have never used a P7 so I can't really comment on it, except it is probably not what you are looking for.

It is one of the coolest handguns ever made though.


I still stick to my "don't get a SIG" recommendation though. They just aren't what they used to be.

Hell the ATF tested the SIG P250 and they all just kept jamming. SIG's response was that the ATF "placed too much importance on reliability", it is almost funny, but it isn't.

What the hell is "too reliable"?

Is that like "too much money"?





Also, for size reference.


USP 9/.40

USP Compact

P2000SK






USP 9/.40

Standard size P2000

P7

[5.56 SS109]

Also, here is a test of a P30 that went 90,000 rounds with only a handful of malfunctions.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2645

The last couple thousand rounds were fired with one of the pistol's guide rails broken off.

The P30 is no joke.

[Creepy Lurker Dude]

the berretta Px4 9mm is a great handgun. I love that handgun. I think it's like 5 or 6? Great solid piece.

[AdMech]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

There is virtually no different performance wise between the P30 and the USP...

Thanks for all that. I'm leaning toward the P30, as it appears to have slightly superior ergonomics to the P2000 and definitely to the USP. However, the rough-as-shit grips might be a problem.

I'd like to try all of these before shooting, but I've never seen any H&K for sale around here... might have to drive to a bigger city to test 'em out.

Hell the ATF tested the SIG P250 and they all just kept jamming. SIG's response was that the ATF "placed too much importance on reliability", it is almost funny, but it isn't.

Yeah, I would post a lol smilie but it's too depressing. I've built the Sig Sauers up to be super-awesome in my mind. Still, I'd be just as pleased to get an H&K... they both look great to me, as well as having great reputations.

Originally Posted by 944

How do you feel about carrying a Full size?

I love my USP, but I have big hands. Many people think the grip is too big/blocky.

I have big hands, but weak wrists, heh. That's why I'm not really asking much about the HK45 - I shot a .40 Smith & Wesson (don't know model) the other day, and the recoil was pretty bad even so. It was a cheapo pistol, though.

Are the full-sizes readily concealable, or not practical? I know it's possible to, but it's no use getting a gun if it's so much trouble I never carry it!

[5.56 SS109]

And since you mentioned you may consider a used pistol, this might be worth looking at.

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/USP_40_V1.html

Not sure how "used" they are, but if they all look like the one in the box you are good to go.

That is only if you want a .40 though.

Nothing wrong with the .40 and the USP was designed from the ground up to be a .40, so it isn't one of those "up chambered" pistols that started out 9mm then were just more or less rebarreled to .40. The pistols that were designed around 9mm and then just converted to .40 tend to batter themselves, break parts, and just generally wear out quicker.

USPs don't have that problem, regardless of caliber. They are built like tanks.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by AdMech

Are the full-sizes readily concealable, or not practical? I know it's possible to, but it's no use getting a gun if it's so much trouble I never carry it!

I am a skinny bastard and I have no trouble concealing my fullsize USP9 in a standard leather belt slide holster under a t-shirt.

It will disappear completely under a light jacket.

It might be worth it for some people to go to the USP Compact/P2000 though.

You only loose 2 rounds of 9mm by doing so and it is a whole lot more concealable.

[AdMech]

Nice to hear. That opens up a lot more options for me (I'm a skinny bastard too).

I'm still not certain on the caliber I want. There's that picture floating around of what the various calibers do to ballistics gel, and the 9mm penetrated just as far as any of them. The .40 had a slightly bigger wound channel, but I'm not sure how important that is... I've heard of police officers having trouble with inadequate stopping power, but I don't know what they're using in the stories I hear.

My friend's .40 Smith & Wesson, as I mentioned in my previous post, had some fairly bad recoil for me (but then again no one else was able to hit much with it either). I'm thinking a 9mm would better, at least until my job gives me stronger wrists... but then, I can always learn to compensate for recoil, but I can't buy another pistol once I've dropped $1000.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by AdMech

I'm still not certain on the caliber I want. There's that picture floating around of what the various calibers do to ballistics gel, and the 9mm penetrated just as far as any of them. The .40 had a bigger wound channel, but I'm not sure how important that is.

My friend's .40 Smith & Wesson, as I mentioned in my previous post, had some fairly bad recoil for me (but then again no one else was able to hit much with it either). I'm thinking a 9mm would better, at least until my job gives me stronger wrists... but then, I can always learn to compensate for recoil, but I can't buy another pistol once I've dropped $1000.

This:



Yeah, given the choice I would take the 9mm too.

The USP is the lowest recoiling 9mm (and the lowest recoiling .40) I have ever used.

The guide rod has a built in recoil buffer than absorbs a lot of the recoil forces.

[AdMech]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

and they only import P30 magazines every now and then AND I believe P30 magazines cost $55 each.

Forgot to ask - do you know if this goes for the P2000 too? I'd imagine not because I have read it is used in law enforcement agencies over here in the U.S. as well, but just to make sure.

[Vargus]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

The P7 is different altogether.

It is a gas operated

Gas-delayed, actually. I think it is a more reliable design for handguns, not to mention a lot cooler a concept.

[AdMech]

Nothing else to add, Plasma? Unless you too suggest I get a USP/P2000/P30.

[Vargus]

Well, I am completely against .40 S&W since it's got way too much recoil for the extra amount of power over 9mm. I much prefer .45 ACP to 9mm, but I've never fired a small-framed handgun in that.

I don't have a budget for a $1000 rifle, much less a pistol so I haven't kept up with guns that high. Glocks do come to mind, but the grossly oversized chamber in the .45 (and .40) versions is a cause for concern unless you download.

[p6867]

I cc a S&W 327 night guard in .357 mag. Costs like $800. In the warmer months I use a Smith airlight as it is highly concealable. I'm kind of a revolver guy though.

[Gun Lover]

Originally Posted by Vargus

Glocks do come to mind, but the grossly oversized chamber in the .45 (and .40) versions is a cause for concern unless you download.

The Glock 30 in .45 ACP isn't a bad gun. However, it is a double stacked .45, so the grip is a bit wide.

My dad uses a glock 36, the single stacked, 7 round .45, for CC. I really like that gun, although it might not fit your body/hand profile. It has substantially more recoil than a similar sized 9mm, but I feel it isn't unmanageable.

OP, I'd stay away from the .40 S&W. More expensive (last time I checked), more recoil, and not much better performance than a good 9mm. I still prefer a .45, personally.

[reggie_love]

My brother has a P226 (one of the special competition ones) and that thing is NICE.

I have a G30SF and it's pretty good, but I have large hands. Though I think .40S&W is a caliber that's not necessarily worth the trouble/added expense, I have shot better with the G27 than I have with any other pistol. It just fits perfectly and the recoil is just right for the way I can grip it, this is all provided I use magazine grip extenders, though.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by AdMech

Forgot to ask - do you know if this goes for the P2000 too? I'd imagine not because I have read it is used in law enforcement agencies over here in the U.S. as well, but just to make sure.

The P2000 uses USP Compact magazines.

So they should be easy to find.

Not sure of the cost though, I'll check real quick.



Actually I just checked Midway USA and it seems that I may be giving you outdated information.

They have USP, USP Compact/P2000, and P30 magazines in stock and on sale for $33 each (regular price $37).

So maybe the P30 has established itself now that people are actually discovering it and H&K decided to ramp up shipments of P30 mags.

[AdMech]

Originally Posted by Vargus

I don't have a budget for a $1000 rifle, much less a pistol so I haven't kept up with guns that high. Glocks do come to mind, but the grossly oversized chamber in the .45 (and .40) versions is a cause for concern unless you download.

Well, bear in mind it's up to $1000 - if there's a gun you'd trust your life to that's cheaper than that, so much the better. I'm poor as shit so even a $500 gun is quite a treat, but I've been saving up for a while.

I haven't really considered Glock much, actually; I know it's a good company, but I don't know anyone who has one. Maybe I should pay 'em more attention.

Originally Posted by p6867

I'm kind of a revolver guy though.

I'm still not entirely certain I'll be going for a semi-auto. One of the things I like about revolvers is that any sort of misfire has the same solution: pull the trigger again. Hard to make that malfunction! But they have their drawbacks, too (only six shots comes to mind)... I was going to make a thread on this after Googling a bit, actually.

Originally Posted by Gun Lover

OP, I'd stay away from the .40 S&W. More expensive (last time I checked), more recoil, and not much better performance than a good 9mm. I still prefer a .45, personally.

Do you know of any instances where a 9mm failed to do the job? Like I mentioned above, I'm not so sure I'll be able to shoot a .45 effectively now, but I can always fix that if the 9mm is inadequate...

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

They have USP, USP Compact/P2000, and P30 magazines in stock and on sale for $33 each (regular price $37).

So maybe the P30 has established itself now that people are actually discovering it and H&K decided to ramp up shipments of P30 mags.

Sweet; thanks. Good to hear.

[Creepy Lurker Dude]

Honestly, take your money and buy a nice pistol from any of the afformentioned manufacturers and you will have made a good purchase. Something of the compact category is what you want. Thats why I recommended the Beretta Px4 Storm because its purpose built for it. It has the pictatinny rail under the barrel, the 3 dot night sights, and is nice and lightweight imo.

It gives you 20 rounds of 9mm ammo at your side.

Plus I think it looks way cool. It's the only beretta i've shot but i know it's a good manufacturer. 9mm is the way to go man.

[944]

Originally Posted by AdMech

Do you know of any instances where a 9mm failed to do the job? Like I mentioned above, I'm not so sure I'll be able to shoot a .45 effectively now, but I can always fix that if the 9mm is inadequate...

With modern ammo the specific load is more important than caliber. 9mm will get the job done fine

[Creepy Lurker Dude]

It's all about how you shoot. Would i feel less safe with a 124 gr 9mm JHP vs 147 gr JHP 9mm. Idk I don't think I would. They both have killed a lot of people dead. And they're still dead.

[skygear]

5.56- I hate to throw a nut in a cog, I'm a full sized cary kind of guy myself but thats another story.
On all of the caliburs mentioned and that I read, AdMech mentioned the recoil. I am a strong supporter of H&K and have had the opportunity to shoot many of their line up.

I mentioned this before I think, But what about the ugly duckling? the F&N FiveSeven??
the cary options are great, the ammo is propriatory, but the recoil is minimal with great stoping power and grouping.

what are your thoughts on this

[Creepy Lurker Dude]

Originally Posted by skygear

5.56- I hate to throw a nut in a cog, I'm a full sized cary kind of guy myself but thats another story.
On all of the caliburs mentioned and that I read, AdMech mentioned the recoil. I am a strong supporter of H&K and have had the opportunity to shoot many of their line up.

I mentioned this before I think, But what about the ugly duckling? the F&N FiveSeven??
the cary options are great, the ammo is propriatory, but the recoil is minimal with great stoping power and grouping.

what are your thoughts on this

don't quote me on this but I heard the 5.7's stopping power was the greatest when the person is wearing kevlar. If not it's like shooting a 22?

[skygear]

personally I use a 22 in my bug out bag! If your a decent shot, proper shot placement takes ALL down.

Recently on a hunting trip on a private farm, I harvested a deer with a well placed shot from a 22 handgun

THe 5.7 is a round that is alledgidly(i know spelling-->moving forewRD WITH MOMENTUM) the body armour defeating round.

the recoil wasn't horrible for being a rifle cartridge

YouTube - FN Five-Seven pistol: Long Range Firepower, Part 2

YouTube - FN Five-Seven pistol: Long Range Firepower, Part 2
Video: click to display

[5.56 SS109]

Well the 5.7x28 isn't exactly a rifle cartridge as it was invented for pistols and PDWs/subguns.

The few real world shootings with it have been dismal at best.

Plus, think about 10 years into the future, will you be able to find ammo for your 5.7x28?

I remember a time when FN Five-seveN pistols were $450 and gun shops couldn't give them away. Then the antigun media started spewing all this nonsense about "armor piercing pistols" and the prices went through the roof.

I am not say the Five-seveN is a terrible handgun, it's just not a good choice for self defense. The bullets are too light and too "fragile" to stay together enough to penetrate into the target's vitals.

Now, look at it like this.

The FN57 fires a .22" diameter 40 grain (1 grain = 1/7000 of a pound) Hornady VMAX bullet at 2200 feet per second.

There are many many reports of people shooting deer with AR15s with .22" diameter 55gr Hornady VMAX bullets at 3100 feet per second and reporting horrible results as the bullet completely comes apart on the rib cage and fails to penetrate into the heart/lungs.

The FN57 is a decent choice for military sidearm usage as the military can only use full metal jacket ammo, and the 5.7x28 with SS190 full metal jacket rounds (that civilians can't even get) is just a bit better than 9x19mm NATO with M882 full metal jacket ammo.

But since nearly all of use here can obtain modern, high quality, jacket hollow point ammo there is absolutely no reason to ever choose to rely on 5.7x28mm pistols for defensive use.

Because, simply put, the 5.7x28 us basically a .22 Magnum.

And .22 Magnum out of a rifle is for shooting squirrels.


Also AdMech since you mentioned about considering a cheaper gun, I can tell you right now that the GLOCK 17 or GLOCK 19 would be an excellent choice.

However, I would recommend that you stick with a "3rd Generation" model, as the newer Generation 4 GLOCKs still seem to have a few bugs that need working out.

Without getting way into all the differences between the GLOCK generations, the grip is an easy way to tell them apart.

3rd Gen on left, 4th Gen on right:



4th Generation GLOCKs also say Gen 4 on them, however Generation 1, 2, and 3 GLOCKs are unmarked, but easy to tell apart.

But you won't find a new-in-box Generation 1 or 2 GLOCK, so it's probably not worth considering them.

[Gun Lover]

Originally Posted by 944

With modern ammo the specific load is more important than caliber. 9mm will get the job done fine

This. There are some pretty great 9mm cartridges available nowadays. They've got some 9mm +P+ that achieve .357 SIG performance without the weird, expensive cartridge.

Fuck the 5.7x28mm. Not only is it bad for the reasons that 5.56 pointed out, but it's expensive (as all hell) and ineffective.

Consider this, AdMech: The cheaper the ammunition, the more you will be able to practice, the better shot placement you will have. And shot placement >>> caliber. Period. Also, shooting is great fun. You'll want to do it as much as possible, if you're like me.

A 9mm through the forehead is going to be much more effective than a .500 S&W through the gut.

As far as recoil, idk anyone who has problems with the recoil of a .45 ACP (though I'm not you). Maybe go to a range and rent a few different caliber guns to see what you like best?

Edit: +1 on the glock 17/19

[Optionryder420]

I see most of what I'm going to say has already been said, but I'll reiterate.

Stay away from new Sigs, their QC has gone downhill and I've heard nothing that good about their new guns. If you can get an older Sig though, they are reliable. My only beef with Sigs is that they have too low of a capacity. I had a P239 in 9mm which only held... I think it was 8rds. It felt and shot AWESOME, but such few rounds wasn't for me.

The Glock type pistols I think is where it is at. Check out Glocks, XDs, and the M&P Smith. They're all around the $500 range and accessories, mags, and parts are plentiful and cheap (at least for the Glock). They're always reliable, and have a higher capacity. I carry daily a Glock 19, it holds 15+1 and I carry 2 extra mags... brings it to 40rds of ammo (one 10rd mag).

H&K hates the civilian market, so they won't get any praise or money from me. Especially at their absurd prices.

There are TONS of pistols out there that are great and under $1000. Anything below $350 though I'd be cautious of.

[p6867]

Originally Posted by AdMech

I'm still not entirely certain I'll be going for a semi-auto. One of the things I like about revolvers is that any sort of misfire has the same solution: pull the trigger again. Hard to make that malfunction! But they have their drawbacks, too (only six shots comes to mind)... I was going to make a thread on this after Googling a bit, actually.

Both my cc .357s have an 8 round cylinder. I practice on reloading with the full moon clips that came with both weapons and have gotten very fast. Also i cannot imagine a realistic scenario where my cc piece needs to shoot more than 8 rounds of .357 magnum.
And anyway i don't live in a free state and can't have "Hi-Cap" mags in anything except .22lr. Enjoy freedom while you can man.

[944]

Originally Posted by Optionryder420

H&K hates the civilian market, so they won't get any praise or money from me. Especially at their absurd prices.

This came from a old importer, the current HK USA is much different and great to work with

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by 944

This came from a old importer, the current HK USA is much different and great to work with

This.

The old imported was (I believed) based out of the UK, and they had attitude problems.

Also, since websites like www.hkparts.net have been established and are in direct cooperation with HK USA, parts availability isn't an issue at all.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by skygear

personally I use a 22 in my bug out bag! If your a decent shot, proper shot placement takes ALL down.

Recently on a hunting trip on a private farm, I harvested a deer with a well placed shot from a 22 handgun

THe 5.7 is a round that is alledgidly(i know spelling-->moving forewRD WITH MOMENTUM) the body armour defeating round.

the recoil wasn't horrible for being a rifle cartridge
YouTube - FN Five-Seven pistol: Long Range Firepower, Part 2

Also, to me, this looks like a much better option than the FN Five-seveN.

It's called the Keltec PMR-30, it holds 30 rounds of .22 Magnum and cocsts about $450.



Really hard to find them in stock since people are grabbing them up, but I will swipe one up if I find one and have the cash.

[944]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

This.

The old imported was (I believed) based out of the UK, and they had attitude problems.

Also, since websites like www.hkparts.net have been established and are in direct cooperation with HK USA, parts availability isn't an issue at all.

Yep, it was the UK company. The guys in GA are great

[p6867]

I remember some local government fellow in the UK was trying to get HK out of whatever city they were in because they were a danger to their community. Lol England.

[944]

Originally Posted by p6867

I remember some local government fellow in the UK was trying to get HK out of whatever city they were in because they were a danger to their community. Lol England.

http://www.shutdownhk.org.uk/

[p6867]

Originally Posted by 944

http://www.shutdownhk.org.uk/

that's the one.