Might be buying a 1991 Civic hatch. (ef hatch)

[Jo0]

So a friend and I found a 1991 Civic Hatchback DX.

The ad is here http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/cto/2427624724.html

So he and I have taken an interest in this car as a DD and autox car. Basically if he ends up not buying this car I'm jumping on it. I'm hoping to pay around $1.5k-2k for the car.

I'm currently driving a 2000 civic coupe.

The first few things I'm doing is getting coilovers and new wheels. Probably silver or bronze RPF01s. Engine wise I probably won't do anything for awhile, maybe give it an exhaust. Then cleaning everything up and giving it modern day conveniences like converting it to power windows and changing the seat belts to the pillar mounted seat belts.

Later on I'll probably do a b18 swap and boost it, but I'm not to worried about it. Any thoughts on this? I'm driving out to check it out later today, just wanted some opinions before I go out to look. Final purchase wont be till later this week or next week.

[Zok Jr.]

Honda civics are NOT race cars. Very economical though.

[DestroyedMatter]

i stoped when i read "running like a beast"

[Jo0]

Originally Posted by DestroyedMatter

i stoped when i read "running like a beast"

Lol it's owned by a 18 year old girl. I'll be leaving in an hour to go check it out.

Zok Jr. 88-91 civic hatches are popular in auto cross. I wouldn't track it but I'm definitely autoxing it

[Zok Jr.]

Originally Posted by Jo0

Lol it's owned by a 18 year old girl. I'll be leaving in an hour to go check it out.

Zok Jr. 88-91 civic hatches are popular in auto cross. I wouldn't track it but I'm definitely autoxing it

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by Jo0

Zok Jr. 88-91 civic hatches are popular in auto cross. I wouldn't track it but I'm definitely autoxing it

They're popular with teenagers who don't know any better.

Hondas are okay, but there are far better cars for autocrossing, even at your price range.

Hint: stop pissing around with front-drivers.

[Jo0]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

They're popular with teenagers who don't know any better.

Hondas are okay, but there are far better cars for autocrossing, even at your price range.

Hint: stop pissing around with front-drivers.

Yeah I got you. My current car is having some engine problems. I'm getting lazy trying to figure out the real problem and wasting money on quick fixes. I offered 1.5k for the car, I figured it'd be a good DD and show car if I decide not to put lots of time effort and money into it.

If insurance, parents, and "other bullshit they know nothing about and use it as a way for me to not get what I want" didnt get in my way I'd probably jump on that MKII mr-2 turbo I found on craigslist the other day for $3k

[dysik]

ITT, people dont know a thing about autox or rally.

a civic will do FINE in autox. dont listen to these douchebags. front wheel drive is GOOD, oversteer/understeer will just slow you down. you want a clean driving line and FWD will help. it will even ease the transition from 2WD to AWD if you choose to do so later.

people might think civics are underpowered but on gravell that barely makes a difference. you cant put all those horses to use if the ground is running away from you.

but then again, im thinking about this from the standpoint of being a dedicated car. if its also going to be your daily driver.... that sucks man. get somethign else.

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by Jo0

Yeah I got you. My current car is having some engine problems. I'm getting lazy trying to figure out the real problem and wasting money on quick fixes. I offered 1.5k for the car, I figured it'd be a good DD and show car if I decide not to put lots of time effort and money into it.

If insurance, parents, and "other bullshit they know nothing about and use it as a way for me to not get what I want" didnt get in my way I'd probably jump on that MKII mr-2 turbo I found on craigslist the other day for $3k

Oh I see. Sorry to hear you still have to base your car buying decisions on that of your parents. It's a pain, I know. A mk.2 MR2 turbo would've been perfect, especially for autox, and as a daily..

It's funny, a mk.2 probably wouldn't be much less safe then a Civic, and their handling characteristics aren't too tricky.

Now to jump to another post here:

Originally Posted by dysik

ITT, people dont know a thing about autox or rally.

a civic will do FINE in autox. dont listen to these douchebags. front wheel drive is GOOD, oversteer/understeer will just slow you down. you want a clean driving line and FWD will help. it will even ease the transition from 2WD to AWD if you choose to do so later.

people might think civics are underpowered but on gravell that barely makes a difference. you cant put all those horses to use if the ground is running away from you.

but then again, im thinking about this from the standpoint of being a dedicated car. if its also going to be your daily driver.... that sucks man. get somethign else.

Face it bud: Front drivers are for noobs that haven't yet learned how to handle oversteer. It's funny you claim oversteer/understeer will slow you down, often times understeer is far worse than oversteer, and FWD's are definitely more prone to understeer. Though you're right that an old Civic is short and light enough that it would track through an autox course easily, in the end learning to utilize a rearward-biased balance will ultimately yield better results;

YouTube - ADVAN-MR2

YouTube - ADVAN-MR2
Video: click to display

YouTube - VW KÄFER MOTORSPORT

YouTube - VW KÄFER MOTORSPORT
Video: click to display

YouTube - NCR AutoX -Redline on the Flightline 2009- #4 SM - Datsun 510

YouTube - NCR AutoX -Redline on the Flightline 2009- #4 SM - Datsun 510
Video: click to display

I'll grant you. The driven wheels doesn't matter that much as, say, size, weight and balance. It's true front driven cars can be effective, but I think you'll find being able to control your angle of attack using oversteer will ultimately make for a faster time.

[dysik]

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

Face it bud: Front drivers are for noobs that haven't yet learned how to handle oversteer. It's funny you claim oversteer/understeer will slow you down, often times understeer is far worse than oversteer, and FWD's are definitely more prone to understeer. Though you're right that an old Civic is short and light enough that it would track through an autox course easily, in the end learning to utilize a rearward-biased balance will ultimately yield better results;

I'll grant you. The driven wheels doesn't matter that much as, say, size, weight and balance. It's true front driven cars can be effective, but I think you'll find being able to control your angle of attack using oversteer will ultimately make for a faster time.

driving styles for FWD and RWD are hugely different. if you learn how to properly set up your car for a corner (which i would assume is the entire point of autoX, to learn better driving skills.) your car will oversteer as much as you want it to. unless you are performing a hairpin turn, if you are countersteering, you are slowing down. what looks/feels faster when driving does not neccesarily equate to faster times.

[Pancake]

I cant believe no one has mentioned yet that 3k for a 91 civic is astronomically high

[dysik]

yeah theres that too, and if your going to buy a gay small underpowered car you may as well get a hyundai excell 1.8L twin cam.

strip everything out of them and they actually go allright.

[Jo0]

@Township: I like to play around with my current car from time to time at my old highschool's parking lots. I've made the mistake of thinking my car could do things it obviously couldnt. I understeered into a curb and ruined my front drivers control arm. I ended up going to a junk yard buying another part and fixing it myself, so lets just say I learned my lesson.

Whether I get this car or not doesnt really matter to me. I just found a clean car of this year and I offered my price. I'm happy if I keep my 2000 civic. Itll just mean that I keep my first car for just awhile longer before I move on. I'm obviously not paying $3k for that, not even $2k. I basically test drove it, offered $1k, and left. I'll test later this week or whatnot and say $1.5k, and if the owner turns that down I'll just move on. Heh

[Zok Jr.]

Originally Posted by dysik

gay small underpowered car

This accurately describes a honda civic

[happy_one_hit]

Originally Posted by Zok Jr.

Honda civics are NOT race cars. Very economical though.

Any car can be a race car. Hondas can be made very fast IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING That's very important you can't just be good at ordering and installing parts.

Originally Posted by Township Rebellion

They're popular with teenagers who don't know any better.

Hondas are okay, but there are far better cars for autocrossing, even at your price range.

Hint: stop pissing around with front-drivers.

Honda and other FWD are not the best but there is nothing at all wrong with it......unless you like to show off and try too look cool. If that's the case buy a RWD car and "drift" and do burn outs and doughnuts.....because that's the real world advantage to RWD over FWD. People are extremely biased against FWD but in reality it works. I know someone with a tuning shop that had a 10 second EG hatch that he drove everyday. Now please understand that it only ran tens with slicks and when you could keep the wheel spin under control.....and you can't really do much under full boost and street tires. BUT it did run high tens and had full interior and A/C.

The fact is you can have a low 13 second car for very little money. Also it's reliable, economic, and fuel efficient. If you don't that's respectable then you are a stuck up douchebag.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who owns no FWD cars at the time....but I do want a CRX.....

[Timothy The G]

Originally Posted by Jo0

So a friend and I found a 1991 Civic Hatchback DX.

The ad is here http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/cto/2427624724.html

So he and I have taken an interest in this car as a DD and autox car. Basically if he ends up not buying this car I'm jumping on it. I'm hoping to pay around $1.5k-2k for the car.

I'm currently driving a 2000 civic coupe.

The first few things I'm doing is getting coilovers and new wheels. Probably silver or bronze RPF01s. Engine wise I probably won't do anything for awhile, maybe give it an exhaust. Then cleaning everything up and giving it modern day conveniences like converting it to power windows and changing the seat belts to the pillar mounted seat belts.

Later on I'll probably do a b18 swap and boost it, but I'm not to worried about it. Any thoughts on this? I'm driving out to check it out later today, just wanted some opinions before I go out to look. Final purchase wont be till later this week or next week.

man keep the red Civic coupe, that hoe is right with the slam in the trunk and all. a very respectable automobile. oh engine trouble you say? well, buy my 91 Camry. i'll take $1000! It's got 135k miles on it and you can still get to drive a 20 year old ugly car.

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by happy_one_hit

Honda and other FWD are not the best but there is nothing at all wrong with it......unless you like to show off and try too look cool. If that's the case buy a RWD car and "drift" and do burn outs and doughnuts.....because that's the real world advantage to RWD over FWD. People are extremely biased against FWD but in reality it works. I know someone with a tuning shop that had a 10 second EG hatch that he drove everyday. Now please understand that it only ran tens with slicks and when you could keep the wheel spin under control.....and you can't really do much under full boost and street tires. BUT it did run high tens and had full interior and A/C.

The fact is you can have a low 13 second car for very little money. Also it's reliable, economic, and fuel efficient. If you don't that's respectable then you are a stuck up douchebag.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who owns no FWD cars at the time....but I do want a CRX.....

I know they can be effective, I do like some front drivers admittedly. They can be set up properly, and I suppose it is possible to rule at autox in a Honda. Like I said I know they can be effective and all. To be honest I never meant to talk shit about front drivers in general... I'm guilty of being a fan of vee-dubs after all, which ties in with my point: Civics are boring. Cute, but boring. If you tart them up, they become ugly, if you make it louder it sounds literally like ass. They're just such unlikable cars when they have too much make-up on.

I'm quite familiar with the model car OP posted, btw, I've got a buddy who loves them though he doesn't really rice them... at least I never saw it. One time his 88 Civic with an auto and some snow tires pulled my MR2 off a rock I got it stuck on (long story, I was 19 and stoned at the time), and we not only were able to crawl our way out of that slushy pit thanks to a sticky throttle and a little elbow grease, it also outshined my dads GMC van which couldn't even get to it. That car died over a year later, of no fault of its own. Since then, I've always sorta had a soft spot for the EF hatch, they're good little cars for what they are, even when it's a 300K rusty heap of shit.

[nutsack]

Originally Posted by happy_one_hit

The fact is you can have a low 13 second car for very little money. Also it's reliable, economic, and fuel efficient.

Uhhh wouldn't you need to do an engine swap and/or boost a n/a design and have some slick as fuck front tires? Doesn't scream cheap or fuel efficient to me, though I guess it can be reliable if everything is done right. Not that OP wants a drag car anyway... a civic could be a cool auto x car but personally I would rather have awd or rwd and something which comes boosted from the factory.

[:Evo:]

if you wanna autocross or rally (which i highly doubt you do/will do/have done) buy an evo.

[MediumD]

Originally Posted by happy_one_hit

Any car can be a race car. Hondas can be made very fast IF YOU CAN READ A MAGAZINE OR HONDA FORUM TO COPY SOMEONE WHO ALREADY MADE A FAST ONE That's very important you can't just be good at ordering and installing parts.

Fix't.

[Jo0]

Been doing some thinking, reading, driving.

My car > that EF. I'm probably going to retract my offer tomorrow. Talked it over with parents. I pretty much have full range on what car I can get next. As long as it's under $3k (maybe $6k) and practical. So that rules out any roadster. I'd definitely like a hatch though. I don't know. We'll see how things turn out these next few months.

Honestly, the only RWD car I can think of at the moment is a s14 240sx. Those are hard as fuck to come by in dallas. Or any other cars you guys have in general? Sticking to japanese cars to appeal to parents. :/ sighh....

[ratfrink]

Originally Posted by Pancake

I cant believe no one has mentioned yet that 3k for a 91 civic is astronomically high

I would expect to pay around £300 in the uk

*weallknowthatcarsintheukareexceptionallycheap*

[sepht]

imo its not worth it to buy a car older than ten years because the screws, bolts, steel, etc gets flimsy and the only way to fix that is to completely take the car apart, blue it, then replace all the nuts and bolts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluing_%28steel%29

oh and if you want to race get a miata

[Jo0]

Already tried convincing my parents for a miata. Didn't work out. I would love to have a NA 1.8l miata.

[ratfrink]

Originally Posted by sepht

imo its not worth it to buy a car older than ten years because the screws, bolts, steel, etc gets flimsy and the only way to fix that is to completely take the car apart, blue it, then replace all the nuts and bolts.

Having owned several cars that are 40+ years old and driven daily, and never having owned a car that's less than 20 years old, I can tell you that's bullshit. And I'm from the UK, where the climate destroys any ferrous metal instantly. Yeah, cars rust, but only if they're exposed to moisture - a car that has been well maintained (undersealed and cavity-injected regularly) will be as in good condition as when it left the factory. Steels do not simply 'become flimsy' considerably over 10 years, or even over 50 years.

Also, bluing metal? Is that a joke? I've been driving old cars, and talking to other car restorers, for years and years, and I've never heard of anyone bluing any part of their car. It's a crazy idea. If the nuts and bolts are rusted, you just replace them with galvanised ones, or remove the rust, grease them up and put underseal over them. If your chassis or body is rusty, you remove the rust, paint it and underseal it. If large components are rusty, you get them powdercoated or you paint them in chassis paint. Gun bluing will just rub off, and it doesn't provide adequate rust protection. You can't even paint over it, because the paint won't adhere.

EDIT - Have I been trolled?

[sepht]

Originally Posted by ratfrink

Having owned several cars that are 40+ years old and driven daily, and never having owned a car that's less than 20 years old, I can tell you that's bullshit. And I'm from the UK, where the climate destroys any ferrous metal instantly. Yeah, cars rust, but only if they're exposed to moisture - a car that has been well maintained (undersealed and cavity-injected regularly) will be as in good condition as when it left the factory. Steels do not simply 'become flimsy' considerably over 10 years, or even over 50 years.

Also, bluing metal? Is that a joke? I've been driving old cars, and talking to other car restorers, for years and years, and I've never heard of anyone bluing any part of their car. It's a crazy idea. If the nuts and bolts are rusted, you just replace them with galvanised ones, or remove the rust, grease them up and put underseal over them. If your chassis or body is rusty, you remove the rust, paint it and underseal it. If large components are rusty, you get them powdercoated or you paint them in chassis paint. Gun bluing will just rub off, and it doesn't provide adequate rust protection. You can't even paint over it, because the paint won't adhere.

EDIT - Have I been trolled?

[happy_one_hit]

Originally Posted by nutsack

Uhhh wouldn't you need to do an engine swap and/or boost a n/a design and have some slick as fuck front tires? Doesn't scream cheap or fuel efficient to me, though I guess it can be reliable if everything is done right. Not that OP wants a drag car anyway... a civic could be a cool auto x car but personally I would rather have awd or rwd and something which comes boosted from the factory.

Yes you would. Buy a B20 for next to nothing, put a b16 head on it and you have a motor that will put 200hp to the wheels. No you don't need slicks to run 13s.

[constantinople]

COOL CAR BRO

[nutsack]

Originally Posted by happy_one_hit

Yes you would. Buy a B20 for next to nothing, put a b16 head on it and you have a motor that will put 200hp to the wheels. No you don't need slicks to run 13s.

200hp, front wheel drive, 980kg? I guess it might scrape high 13's if it was launched skillfully and didn't fall to pieces. Why though?

Edit: you would need aftermarket engine management yeah? Shits not cheap.

[MediumD]

Originally Posted by happy_one_hit

Yes you would. Buy a B20 for next to nothing, put a b16 head on it and you have a motor that will put 200hp to the wheels. No you don't need slicks to run 13s.

Really? A 2 liter engine with an OEM head swap will put 200 to the wheels?

[nutsack]

Originally Posted by MediumD

Really? A 2 liter engine with an OEM head swap will put 200 to the wheels?

I think some forms of b16 make nearly 200 at the crank. 400cc increase with that same head.

[happy_one_hit]

Originally Posted by nutsack

200hp, front wheel drive, 980kg? I guess it might scrape high 13's if it was launched skillfully and didn't fall to pieces. Why though?

Edit: you would need aftermarket engine management yeah? Shits not cheap.

Originally Posted by MediumD

Really? A 2 liter engine with an OEM head swap will put 200 to the wheels?

I said 200 to be conservative. If you only put a vtec head on a b20 that's about what you would get maybe a little less. Which is pretty damn peppey for a little car like that. If you had any sense you could port and polish the head at your house and pay a machinist to give it a good valve job. Check the short block maybe hone the cylinders and re ring it, which is pretty cheap. Cams and cam gears are dirt cheap for those motors.

You do a little bit of work they have had people get 260+ naturally aspirated. Which is very fast and should be able to push a car like that into the 12s. That is very fast. But you WILL need a LSD.

Even if you have 4-5K dollars in the car (which you wouldn't unless your dumb) it runs 12s

Do you have any idea how satisfying it is to put down mustangs and f bodies all day....in a fucking 91 civic hatchback....without a turbo....

And you could drive from New York to Las Vegas with no problem.....and get 30+ MPG


All this talking about civics makes me want to buy a CRX and finish my LS/Vtec.

[MediumD]

Originally Posted by nutsack

I think some forms of b16 make nearly 200 at the crank. 400cc increase with that same head.

I was under the impression they were more like 150-160 at the crank, which with the 25% increase in displacement should make maybe 190ish crank (shouldn't make 25% more power with just the displacement increase, it's sucking and blowing through the ports harder but the ports are still the same size...) which doesn't equate to over 200 at the wheels. Unless the chambers are smaller and you get a big compression bump or something like that, I don't see how that power level would be accurate.

So the B18B type ARRRRRR makes 190 +/- a few (saw a couple different numbers listed) crank, but that's out of 1.8L.. I don't know how an extra 200cc with that head/cams would make more than maybe 180 wheel unless Hondas have magic drivetrains that lose less than 10%.

[nutsack]

B16B from a civic type r makes 185ps @ 8200rpm, that's the one I was thinking of. His "little bit of work" starts to build up quite quickly I think.

[Jo0]

What are people's opinions on MINI cooper S? Particularly in the years 03-05?

[Township Rebellion]

Originally Posted by Jo0

What are people's opinions on MINI cooper S? Particularly in the years 03-05?

At least they're prettier, and the earlier supercharged ones are a hoot to drive and they sound all snarly and shit. The newer Turbocharged Cooper S's are surprisingly fast. Then you got special John Cooper Works additions that have yet more go-fast goodies. They look great for sure, but apparently build quality isn't completely perfect, the interior design might be... over done, and they aren't terribly practical. And lots of old people drive them, they just aren't as cool as the older ones, but nothing ever is.

It's not a car I wouldn't drive, though it's far away from my first choice.

[ratfrink]

My aunt has a Cooper S, I never realised how fast it was until I borrowed it (she drives like an auntie). The handling is great, too. Everything feels chunky and solid.

The packaging is terrible. The back seats are tiny. You get less rear legroom than in the original Mini. The boot is about as small as you can get. The seats fold down, but you still can't get a lot in there. It's about the same size as most small hatchbacks, but has a lot less room inside.

It has also been pretty unreliable. She's had it since new in 2004, and the electric power steering has failed thrice, it's needed a new radiator and a few other bits doing to the engine. Because it's all crammed in there so tight, labour charges are high because you have to strip so many things to get to the part that needs replacing.

[Jo0]

Lame, well my search for another car is still going on. As of now it seems I just have to wait and lurk craigslist for a non raped s13/s14. Since it seems it's something that fits my criteria and budget as of now. No rush though, so its all good.

[rider]

Late to this thread but in response to the first couple of posts:

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Everyone who said he fails for thinking 89-91 Hatches are bad at autox's are WRONG. The last couple of auto-x's I've driven in, the 89-91s are EASILY the fastest in class. A 4-cyl hatch with a stock engine was the fastest car at the auto-x. By far. Over and over again. All the car has is suspension and tire.

[rider]

Originally Posted by Jo0

non raped s13/s14.

You're gonna be waiting for a long, long time.