Training to Shoot While Disoriented.

[Carbonbased]

So yesterday I was crouched in the garden pulling weeds and I stand up really fast then stretch, and as sometimes happens (due to low heart rate or whatever) I get an eppisode of light headed sort of vision goes into a dark tunnel sort of grey out. While this is happening and I'm trying to remain standing for some reason I put my arms up like I'm shouldering my rifle. As the blood flow returns to my brain, I notice my arms still up and begin to wonder " I was pritty fuck up right there, I wonder how I would have been able to shoot if I had to".

TL/DR: In combat there may be scenarios where your not all there mentally but you'll need to engage, like you're just waking up, you've lost allot of blood, your disoriented from an explosion or maybe your drunk. Whatever the case do yall have any ideas on how one might train to react in these scenarios or if training for them is even pertinent?

[Nelokjer]

1. Go way the fuck away from people.

2. Get smashed.

3. Practice

Best I can think of.

[yawanur]

imagine what these guys were dealing with-
http://listverse.com/2010/02/19/10-a...edal-of-honor/

[5.56 SS109]

Gas blow back airsoft guns may be good for this.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

Gas blow back airsoft guns may be good for this.

He makes a good point. As for achieving disorientation, you should just set up some targets in your bedroom, and as soon as your alarm goes off, you attempt to engage the targets. You'd be surprised how much sleep can hinder you. Last night the wind knocked something up against the side of my apartment. All I heard was a loud bang that sounded like it came from the other room. Took me a good 30 seconds to find my gun. That might not be bad if it were locked up, but I sleep with it in my nightstand.

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by yawanur

imagine what these guys were dealing with-
http://listverse.com/2010/02/19/10-a...edal-of-honor/

Holy shit, these are badass. In particular:

He was armed with a homemade .50 caliber machine gun that he salvaged from a downed American aircraft on another island. He fired this from the hip as he charged across the volcanic plains, and engaged the enemy at every pillbox and bunker that he saw shooting at him.

WTF

[crazymike]

I saw a show on tv about this stuff, they train spec ops to endure environmental extremes and minimize the effect on their shooting and other skills. They took a normal dude and put him through the same test, he couldnt even lift the rifle at the end of one test and the operator was hitting bullseyes. The moral of the story is: Train your ass off in every type of condition and you will get good results.

[Malcolm Equis]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Holy shit, these are badass. In particular:

WTF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

Using a modified Mosin–Nagant in the Winter War, he has the highest recorded number (505) of confirmed sniper kills in any major war.[2][3]

[Asheville]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

Holy shit, these are badass. In particular:

WTF

running up a hill shooting an aircraft-mounted 50 cal from the hip

yeah, that's pretty fucking awesome

[yawanur]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

Gas blow back airsoft guns may be good for this.

nbb ftw!
obviously not for realistic training butttt..... I really want one of these to dick around with:

[aka not playing airsoft just shooting]

Performance: Holding the record of the highest velocity of any airsoft gun we have chronographed to date, the Mk.1 Carbine achieved a scorching 638 fps w/ KSC .2g and Xtreme gas. Obviously at this velocity one should be extra cautious as to what is behind your target in the event that you miss as the BB will probably not stop until it reaches the next county.

-Propane - 500 fps
Hop Up: Adjustable
Weight: 2.75 lbs
Magazine capacity: 17 rds

[Struwwelpeter]

Positional hypotension. I had a brief spell with it in 2010. You might want to look at your diet (might not be eating enough). It's definitely not something you want to have to deal with.

[virgil caine]

that wasent a .50 it was a .30 cal browning 1919a4 with the stock of a m1 garand attached to it if i remember right that that guy used on the japanese

[LavaRed]

How can one induce severe stress on the body? What sorts of tests are they using? I'd like to replicate them.

The farthest I've gone is attempting to shoot after cardio daily, but other than a loss in accuracy, it doesn't bother that much.

However, trying to react from a deep sleep does take getting used to. Half the time I hear a noise in the night I'll just roll over .


I'd be very interested in learning what sorts of tests they put the operators through.

Thanks,
LavaRed

[Groundhog whacka]

Come over to my house to shoot. I'll thump you in the head with a ball bat a couple of times then proceed to practice.

I have tried sprinting a couple of laps around the house to get my heart rate jacked up to see how it affected my shooting, but never tried dizzying myself or anything of that nature.

[yawanur]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

How can one induce severe stress on the body? What sorts of tests are they using? I'd like to replicate them.

crouch low and breathe heavily for a minute straight, then stand up and immediately fire while your vision is still adjusting

[Painzstake]

Here is some more guys including simo
http://www.cracked.com/article_17019...ike-pussy.html
the last guy is crazy.

[Rolf]

15km cross country or so with weapon and ammunition in the extremes of winter or summer might help disorientation, so will sleep deprivation, dehydration or wearing a CBRN mask, states Rolf. A "Mad Mile" shoot, where you run 1600m, stopping and shooting at targets every 100m within a certain amount of time also does quite well, adds Rolf.

Originally Posted by virgil caine

that wasent a .50 it was a .30 cal browning 1919a4 with the stock of a m1 garand attached to it if i remember right that that guy used on the japanese

The Stinger, it was called, adds Rolf.

[Painzstake]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

How can one induce severe stress on the body? What sorts of tests are they using? I'd like to replicate them.
LavaRed

The show its self is kind of shit but there is some good info in the series

Fight Science - Super Soldiers ( Part 1 ) - YouTube

Fight Science - Super Soldiers ( Part 1 ) - YouTube
Video: click to display

also this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RpcZ...elated#t=2m47s
this is serious if you combine the two (swaying your arms together and closing your eyes whilst rotating your head) you will feel bloody groggy almost like you have been Choked out/KO'd. Combine this with holding onto say 2.5kg-5kg for like 2-4+ minutes with your arms dead level out straight in front of you, till your arms go shaky as fuck. That would be very stressing on shooting performance one would think.

[Metafire]

Originally Posted by Rolf

The Stinger, it was called, adds Rolf.

Lol, I think that might do a little more than sting.



I'm trying to think of instances of disorientation, and the easy to replicate ones that come to mind are:

-Immediately after waking up
-After being quickly exposed to cold (That sharp intake of air, all your blood rushing to keep your organs warm)
-Those moments when your vision is adjusting from almost no light to outside

[LavaRed]

Thanks guys! I'll add these to my training routine and report back on results.

[The Phreak]

best way is to go for a run after you stay up for 2 days. then rest for 30 minutes. now try and shoot

[Carbonbased]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

Gas blow back airsoft guns may be good for this.

Agreed, I used to practice loading/unloading and sight picture acquisition with my pistol... Now if I could only get it to shoot again I'd be in business.

Originally Posted by LavaRed

How can one induce severe stress on the body? What sorts of tests are they using? I'd like to replicate them.

The farthest I've gone is attempting to shoot after cardio daily, but other than a loss in accuracy, it doesn't bother that much.

However, trying to react from a deep sleep does take getting used to. Half the time I hear a noise in the night I'll just roll over .


I'd be very interested in learning what sorts of tests they put the operators through.

Thanks,
LavaRed

Indeed I'd thought you would find this tread up your ally Lava, please keep us abreast of what training you put in and how it benefits you.

Originally Posted by Rolf

15km cross country or so with weapon and ammunition in the extremes of winter or summer might help disorientation, so will sleep deprivation, dehydration or wearing a CBRN mask, states Rolf. A "Mad Mile" shoot, where you run 1600m, stopping and shooting at targets every 100m within a certain amount of time also does quite well, adds Rolf.



The Stinger, it was called, adds Rolf.

Point well taken Rolf! I had completely forgotten how disorienting hypothermia can be, and its something that is easy (not necessarily safe) to induce and train in. Plus it has the benefit of greatly impacting hand dexterity! I love it! In addition the gas mask idea is something that I've also heard of, as well as smearing glasses with Vaseline to obstruct a shooters vision.

The other idea that I had was having a friend spray you with CS, OC, maybe not a full in your face blast at first but like he mists an area and then you walk through it.

Keep the ideas cumming I like it!

[virgil caine]

eat a bunch of benadryl to make you groggy or give yourself a terrible hang over i think the terrible hangover would be a pretty good test

[Hydroponichronic]

Originally Posted by virgil caine

eat a bunch of benadryl

But don't over-do it or you'll wind up shooting nazis, which later turn out just to be your living room furniture.

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by Hydroponichronic

But don't over-do it or you'll wind up shooting nazis, which later turn out just to be your living room furniture.

What's benadryl?

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

What's benadryl?

It's allergy medicine that doesn't really prevent allergies.

It just knocks you the fuck out and, since you're unconscious, you won't be bothered by allergies.

[p6867]

Pt hard, until you are physically sick, then do an obstacle course. Then practice firing your weapon. Its what we used to do in the rangers.

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by p6867

Pt hard, until you are physically sick, then do an obstacle course. Then practice firing your weapon. Its what we used to do in the rangers.

I'm assuming physically sick translates to vomiting?

Thanks,
Lava

[Freelance Tax Collector]

Do a dizzy izzy. Take a bat and put one end on the ground and touch your forehead to the other. Spin around several times then run to the firing line and shoot your drill.

[LavaRed]

I'll do a review of all these techniques and will post results.

I'll just need some time while I construct a suitable obstacle course for them at my farm, as I don't have the safe space to try this out at my city house.

[p6867]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

I'm assuming physically sick translates to vomiting?

Thanks,
Lava

Yes, I do mean vomiting, and not just from running. Open with running as its a great whole body workout, but arm fatigue is a huge factor over head arm claps, whatever that exercise is where you just hold your arms straight for as long as you can. It's not about getting a good workout, its about beating your body up.

[Carbonbased]

I think that the other thing to consider in additon to ways to induce stress on the shooter is how are we going to measure the effectiveness of the shots while they are impaired?

Obviously a baseline comparison would be helpful, that is shooting when one is fresh and sober. But what test do you think would be most effective to gauge a shooters ability. Long range silhouette shooting would probably be one good test, say a man size target at 100-200m with iron sites shooting as fast as possible. But for closer shooting what sort of reflex like drills do you think would be most beneficial to train?

[Metafire]

Originally Posted by Carbonbased

I think that the other thing to consider in additon to ways to induce stress on the shooter is how are we going to measure the effectiveness of the shots while they are impaired?

Obviously a baseline comparison would be helpful, that is shooting when one is fresh and sober. But what test do you think would be most effective to gauge a shooters ability. Long range silhouette shooting would probably be one good test, say a man size target at 100-200m with iron sites shooting as fast as possible. But for closer shooting what sort of reflex like drills do you think would be most beneficial to train?

I'm thinking some sort of room-by-room clearing. So like, have someone set up a certain number of targets randomly in a room, and the shooter has to enter, locate the targets, and shoot them.

Could base the score off of time and accuracy.

[Charles Manson]

Just stay up for like a week straight on drugs then stop for a day, and while your vision is all crazy, try to do target practice, maybe even get drunk before.


Drunk practice would also be useful perhaps.

[Painzstake]

As for testing, train as you would fight so fully kit up (adds weight therefore stress) as you would for a SHTF situation. Then sit up a course of fire like

Sledgehammer Drill by Nutnfancy: Sig P226, Bushy AR-15 Aimpoint - YouTube

Sledgehammer Drill by Nutnfancy: Sig P226, Bushy AR-15 Aimpoint - YouTube
Video: click to display

yes i know hes a bit of a knob but none the less combines a variation of fighting scenarios that make for a good test. Then repeat, but this time do some of the previously aforementioned posts ideas but with your kit on.

[LavaRed]

I think I'll avoid tests that involve mind-altering substances and stick to physically-induced stress.

Incidentally, how realistic would it be if I get a couple of my workers to seriously beat the shit out of me before doing the testing? Would it help?

Thanks,
LavaRed

[Painzstake]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

Incidentally, how realistic would it be if I get a couple of my workers to seriously beat the shit out of me before doing the testing? Would it help?

This is likely to just hurt... a lot. your body whilst bruised will still function fine. a good example of this would be fighters in the ring, only get sloppy when they are gassed. The pain would put you off your game, but not to the same degree as if you were to physically exert your body.

[Carbonbased]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

I think I'll avoid tests that involve mind-altering substances and stick to physically-induced stress.

Incidentally, how realistic would it be if I get a couple of my workers to seriously beat the shit out of me before doing the testing? Would it help?

Thanks,
LavaRed

I don't really see that being beneficial, like Painzstake most of your injuries will be superficial, and any that aren't probably are not worth enduring just for the sake of training. However if they did somehow damage your inner ear to induce vertigo I would imagine that would make doing anything that required dexterity a pain in the ass.

[LavaRed]

Alright, then that idea is discarded. How can I induce temporary vertigo?

[Metafire]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

Alright, then that idea is discarded. How can I induce temporary vertigo?

Sit down, hug your knees to your chest. Sit there for about a minute, then stand up quickly and raise your rifle.