I'd like to preface this with the fact that I myself am an atheist. This is no atheist bashing thread
Also I'm just cutting and pasting some of the stuff...
So to start let's go to how the word came about:
In early ancient Greek, the adjective atheos meant "godless". It was first used as a term of censure roughly meaning "ungodly" or "impious". In the 5th century BCE, the word began to indicate more deliberate and active godlessness in the sense of "severing relations with the gods" or "denying the gods".
Over time it's developed into what it means today: "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings."
Another definition stated by George H. Smith says atheism is "absence of theism." Which makes perfect sense. The "a" before "theism" means without.
Some atheists have doubted the very need for the term "atheism". In his book Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris wrote:
In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.
With the logic there atheism is nothing. It's not a belief system, it's the complete lack of. Atheism is just a word religious people gave those who do not believe in some all powerful figure as a label.
Also when someone turns from Christianity or something to atheism you won't say, "I converted to atheism." There's nothing to convert to, you just left you religion and went to nothing.
I had a shit ton more stuff to say earlier today, but I forgot for right now and I'm tired. I'll come back to this and be more convincing
With the logic there atheism is nothing. It's not a belief system, it's the complete lack of. Atheism is just a word religious people gave those who do not believe in some all powerful figure as a label.
An unbroken thread beyond description.
it returns to nothingness.
The form of the formless,
The image of the imageless.
It is called indefinable and beyond imagination.
Stand before it and there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
Stay with the ancient Tao,
Move with the present.
Knowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.
no he didn't say a good thread he said a good explanation. you could have posted it there. I dunno its a decent description so I give you props for that, mud farmer.
I believe that this thread is unnecessary because the burden of proof would be on the people claiming that atheism IS a religion, not the other way around. This thread is akin to someone writing up reasons why my toaster is not a religion, if you follow my train of logic here.
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I believe that this thread is unnecessary because the burden of proof would be on the people claiming that atheism IS a religion, not the other way around. This thread is akin to someone writing up reasons why my toaster is not a religion, if you follow my train of logic here.
That's the point that is trying to be made essentially.
I believe that this thread is unnecessary because the burden of proof would be on the people claiming that atheism IS a religion, not the other way around. This thread is akin to someone writing up reasons why my toaster is not a religion, if you follow my train of logic here.
Just FYI, I did request that someone type up something along these lines, for the reason that this does come up all the damn time; it would be helpful to be able to direct all discussion about this issue to one thread, rather than having to repeat the arguments over and over.
So if you guys have anything to add to the OP, or think you can do a better job, or just want to throw in your own reasoning, please go ahead and do so, and I will clean up and sticky/pin all relevant, quality posts.
Atheists are still part of a belief system, albeit one revolving around the truth and facts, as opposed to fantasy, magic and stuff like that. You could say that every book written about science or something which goes against religion are our holy books. We hold people like Tesla, Einstein and Newton in a sort of "God"-like position in the relative fields.
I guess its all on how you see the picture. Believing in a non-existent, unprovable being is pretty crazy if you ask me.
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Why are atheists so rational if they lack belief? Isn't this a defense mechanism? If I was an atheist I would be an absurdist with my beliefs, using rationality only when it's fun and developing a healthy distaste for any one belief over another.
I once played a chess game with a friend. Initially, we pointed out the checkmates ahead of time so we could avoid those scenarios and continue playing. Eventually, we would avoid decisive moves altogether in favor of a more fun hypothetical game that no sane chessmaster would ever play. It was so refreshing to see hidden potential in a new light from a slightly skewed perspective--much like a dream, I suppose.
Particularist theories organize things already known and attempt to use these particulars of knowledge to find a method of how we know, thus answering the second question set. Methodist theories propose an answer to question set two and proceed to use this to establish what we, in fact, know. Classical empiricism embraces the methodist approach.
So is there any convincing atheist particularist? For example, one possible belief that can go beyond methodism is optimism, at least in the personal sphere. A pure methodism also results in an ethically-void world where there are no forms, which leads to the problem of universals.
If I was an atheist I would be an absurdist with my beliefs, using rationality only when it's fun and developing a healthy distaste for any one belief over another.
That's your prerogative, but it's not really related to atheism... unless you are trying to suggest that without theism, there's no point in being rational; with this I disagree wholeheartedly.
Quote:
I once played a chess game with a friend. Initially, we pointed out the checkmates ahead of time so we could avoid those scenarios and continue playing. Eventually, we would avoid decisive moves altogether in favor of a more fun hypothetical game that no sane chessmaster would ever play. It was so refreshing to see hidden potential in a new light from a slightly skewed perspective--much like a dream, I suppose.
That sounds fun as hell.
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What is this "being" that atheists lack a belief in?
If I were to tell you that "God is Love", would that mean that an atheist does not believe in Love (or even a very human "love") since atheist lack belief in all of the gods that society has ever believed in?
Last edited by nshanin; 12-13-2011 at 03:58 AM.
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What is this "being" that atheists lack a belief in?
If I were to tell you that "God is Love", would that mean that an atheist does not believe in Love (or even a very human "love") since atheist lack belief in all of the gods that society has ever believed in?
There is no being. It's like if you told me you believed in a giant purple dick that ruled over your toaster, I sure as hell don't believe that. So do I get a special name because of that? Others are who believe in a being, we just don't believe in anything.
Well love is an emotion, an emotion that can be felt. It isn't some creature that rules over us.
There is no being. It's like if you told me you believed in a giant purple dick that ruled over your toaster, I sure as hell don't believe that. So do I get a special name because of that? Others are who believe in a being, we just don't believe in anything.
Well love is an emotion, an emotion that can be felt. It isn't some creature that rules over us.
What if "God" is an emotion that can be felt, not some creature that rules over us?
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Atheism is just NOT WANTING TO FOLLOW ANY RELIGION thats all......
I know some atheists,THEY ARE SOME OF THE MOST OPEN MINDED PEOPLE! (You can discuss anything w/them and they wont judge,etc......)
Atheism may not be a belief system or even a belief, but atheists are very capable of belief and adherence belief systems. Religion is not the only "opiate of the masses". There are plenty of non-religious social institutions, taboos, and feelings of "common sense" which are equally as bogus as a bearded grandfatherly cosmic monarch. An example of this would be a wideheld belief that numeric time is an actual occurrence, and not a construction of the imagination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irukanji
Atheists are still part of a belief system, albeit one revolving around the truth and facts, as opposed to fantasy, magic and stuff like that. You could say that every book written about science or something which goes against religion are our holy books. We hold people like Tesla, Einstein and Newton in a sort of "God"-like position in the relative fields.
I guess its all on how you see the picture. Believing in a non-existent, unprovable being is pretty crazy if you ask me.
This is something that pops up over and over again. Science and Religion are the two dominant belief systems of modern life. If atheism is synonymous with science, then it is a belief system. I don't think that is the case. I agree with you the atheists participate in belief systems, but that is not fundamental to their atheism. Many taboos for example, often times both religious and non religious personalities share these. A specific example of this might be incest as a negative or "wrong" activity.
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Last edited by AdMech; 12-14-2011 at 12:45 AM.
Reason: page stretching for smaller monitors
I agree atheism is not a religion, it's a philosophy. Religion implies a deity, worship, praise, and so forth. It's not like atheists everywhere gather at sunrise and praise the lack of a supreme creator.
Then using the word God is silly, almost as silly as using the word creature.
You're only calling it silly. There is nothing inherently silly about it. Emotions are subjective. If someone is sensing God, telling them they are silly doesn't change that.
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Which still exists, right? Marginalizing something does not make it less real.
Your entire reality is just chemical reactions. You are just a chemical reaction. Do you exist?
If I feel universal love, why doesn't it exist?
Love exists in our minds. But remove my mind and it no longer exists.
Well yes, my entire reality is just a series of chemical reactions. Everything is.
Reality is completely subjective, I don't know if I truly exist. I can't know, I can only think I do.
If I felt universal randiness does it make it real? Does it take "form"?
Love exists in our minds. But remove my mind and it no longer exists.
Why should I remove your mind? It is included in reality, there are no exceptions.
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Originally Posted by adrieann
Well yes
Yes, marginalizing an emotion doesn't make it less real. Or telling someone their emotions are just chemical reactions in the brain, doesn't make their emotions any less significant to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieann
If I felt universal randiness does it make it real? Does it take "form"?
Sure. Why wouldn't it? What are you trying to say about God?
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Some atheists have doubted the very need for the term "atheism". In his book Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris wrote:
In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.
That's true that the term shouldn't need to exist, but my argument against that is that it indeed does. Now I'm paraphrasing someone from the Atheist Experience, but if there were people going around claiming that Bigfoot was real without any evidence and they were trying to pass legislation to teach about Bigfoot to children in school, outlaw any kind of sex they don't like, outlaw birth control and abortion; I would indeed make up a term to proclaim that I do not believe in Bigfoot.
To actually think that negative words aren't necessary is simply stupid. When religion comes into conversation, and someone asks if you are a theist and you aren't, the other option is atheist. Sure, you could say you're "not a theist", but how is that any less wrong than claiming you're an atheist?
This argument for the use of the word atheist sounds like one apologists probably use to stump people.
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Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Give a man religion, and he'll starve praying for a fish.
What if "God" is an emotion that can be felt, not some creature that rules over us?
Then what if God is a coffee cup? Or what if God is that feeling you get when you have to take a piss? Maybe God is the feeling when you kiss a girl, or the rush you get when you slaughter an innocent human being for pleasure.
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Aristophanes once wrote, roughly translated; "Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever."
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Give a man religion, and he'll starve praying for a fish.
Then what if God is a coffee cup? Or what if God is that feeling you get when you have to take a piss? Maybe God is the feeling when you kiss a girl, or the rush you get when you slaughter an innocent human being for pleasure.
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
- Alan Watts
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I think the branding of "atheist" comes from people protesting so fervently against religion. That absolute and utter faith is what makes you your own religion, the thought that all religion is wrong but your beliefs are closer to correct. That's a leap of faith right there, so congrats on having faith if nothing else. I prefer Agnosticism myself considering the possibilities and leaving them open and not setting yourself on a single one.
"But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is."
- Alan Watts
"The quote I just quoted being quoted was an attempt to portray Obbe's silly belief that human emotion is a deity as mystical and beyond logical reasoning"
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God is a cold hearted killer. See how polytheism and complete oneness works? Why complicate it with notions of ancient bullshit though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retard Synrdome
Atheism is still a -theism, which is the belief of which at least one deity exists.
Atheism is the denial or refusal of aforementioned deity/ies, not an indication that you don't have a religion, because it's still a -theism.
Trolls are more effective when literate.
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re·li·gion
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
So by definition it is a religion. If you read the definition of the word religion it states "...especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency..." so that does not at all mean that it is ONLY when consiered as the creation of a superhuman agency.
Athiests make the mistake of taking the word religion and saying that it is an evil thing or a bad thing or at least a thing they do not desire. This is a horrible mistake.
Lets put it this way. You come up with something that is a bunch of sound and it is pleasing to the ears and has rythm and harmony. But you dont call it music because "I dont like the main idea behind todays music". So you give it a name of its own. Its still fucking music because it fits the criteria! Just because you dont like all the other music out there doesnt make the thing that was created not music. It becomes a different genre.
Lets apply this to athiests. They dont like the current religious beliefs these days. So they decide to say "Well there is no god". And a group of people stand by that. Even whole organizations stand by it and are created from it. But it still fits the definition of religion in the most basic sense. Even if it is so unbelieviby different or opposite to what is currently the majority of religion it is still in that same category. It is a different thought or idea on how our whole universe works. So yes it is a religion.
As in response to the quote about how athiesm is NOT a religion:
Quote:
In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.
There are no massive groups of people who have founded entire organizations on the disbelief or alchemy (or maybe there are... i think they could be called scientists) or for people who do not believe in astrology. Or even for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive. Why not? Because those people are few and far between. You have to be half retarded to think this is a logical argument. As a society we make words for things that are popular. Athiesm is rather popular. So they made a word from it so that people who are alike can be like "Oh you are athiest? So am I!" or people who arent to be able to say "Oh you are athiest? You are going to hell!"
This is a stupid argument that has been rehashed oh so many times. Get over yourselves. You are a religion. You have the firm belief that there is no god. And you stand by that belief. Just because you dont like the other religions doesnt mean you arent one.
Also I am athiest.
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Atheism is a religion because it is a clearly delineated group with standardized spiritual beliefs (as in that there are no spirits).
That's according to the dictionary
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Why Atheism is not a Religion.
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Re: Why Atheism is not a Religion.
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