Zoklet.net

Go Back   Zoklet.net > Society > Religion and Spirituality

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #281  
Old 04-05-2012, 06:07 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
Nightmares relate to dreams, which relate to present lives (ate's story), which relates to everything. You don't have reading comprehension, so your distraction fails again.
"present lives relate to everything" . Well alright, tell me what ate's trip report or dream or whatever has to do with the determinism/indeterminism debate that's happening in this thread. What does the existence of past lives mean for this particular facet of reality? I mean, I saw nothing in that post that even hinted at a position on this topic.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:33 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

It involves karma and the laws of cause/effect, these are all interconnected in ways that might not yet be clear to you, but consider how in the natural/scientific world, all things are related to each other one way or another in a holarchy; so it is with the creation.

If we do have free will, isn't it our minds that create it for us? If we have minds outside of bodies (as reincarnation research proves), then do we have will outside of matter? Past lives blow the hinges off the mind-body problem and are incredibly relevant to this issue, it is just that you haven't started thinking about it in the right way because its very nature eludes easy (materialistic) explanation (as you'll see when you read the high-quality cases).

The whole universe is an engine for lives of all varieties in all timelines; the Universe is teeming with life everywhere it is capable of being found (specifically, in each sub-octave of the Ray of Creation, as mentioned in the other thread, in case you were curious).

Your own life is also very important to you on a subjective level (that is, inside of "your own world"), is it not? With an understanding of your subjective reality, you can influence it further by effecting your will at higher levels (one example is doing this in dreams), which have predictive aspects and are clearly interacting with another density as Antonia Mills shows with research on nightmares and past lives.


And I could go on, but I think you should really get to reading that research because it's more important that you dispute the minimalist hypothesis and the related inescapable conclusions of the evidence than my opinions on the ways of creation. If you really believe (in) Rust's critiques of the evidence, then I hope you can explain just how parents were able to subliminally influence their child in secrecy and without motive. Children don't just say their first words because their parents goaded them into making up a story; already it is clear that fraudulent cases that could involve ultra-pervasive and subliminal tampering are very rare.

So now that I've explained the relevance, I continue to await your posting 3 refutations of points and/or subheadings made by the author Almeder in that paper. Otherwise, you concede Almeder's point that the best critique of reincarnation that was offered by the mainstream could not even come close to an explanation for this phenomena but instead went immediately into denial (using the modus operandi problem as its proxy to do this).

Do you still have the brains/balls to point out where the author is wrong or are you too in denial?
Reply With Quote
  #283  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:43 AM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
It involves karma and the laws of cause/effect, these are all interconnected in ways that might not yet be clear to you, but consider how in the natural/scientific world, all things are related to each other one way or another in a holarchy; so it is with the creation.

If we do have free will, isn't it our minds that create it for us? If we have minds outside of bodies (as reincarnation research proves), then do we have will outside of matter? Past lives blow the hinges off the mind-body problem and are incredibly relevant to this issue, it is just that you haven't started thinking about it in the right way because its very nature eludes easy (materialistic) explanation (as you'll see when you read the high-quality cases).

The whole universe is an engine for lives of all varieties in all timelines; the Universe is teeming with life everywhere it is capable of being found (specifically, in each sub-octave of the Ray of Creation, as mentioned in the other thread, in case you were curious).

Your own life is also very important to you on a subjective level (that is, inside of "your own world"), is it not? With an understanding of your subjective reality, you can influence it further by effecting your will at higher levels (one example is doing this in dreams), which have predictive aspects and are clearly interacting with another density as Antonia Mills shows with research on nightmares and past lives.


And I could go on, but I think you should really get to reading that research because it's more important that you dispute the minimalist hypothesis and the related inescapable conclusions of the evidence than my opinions on the ways of creation. If you really believe (in) Rust's critiques of the evidence, then I hope you can explain just how parents were able to subliminally influence their child in secrecy and without motive. Children don't just say their first words because their parents goaded them into making up a story; already it is clear that fraudulent cases that could involve ultra-pervasive and subliminal tampering are very rare.

So now that I've explained the relevance, I continue to await your posting 3 refutations of points and/or subheadings made by the author Almeder in that paper. Otherwise, you concede Almeder's point that the best critique of reincarnation that was offered by the mainstream could not even come close to an explanation for this phenomena but instead went immediately into denial (using the modus operandi problem as its proxy to do this).

Do you still have the brains/balls to point out where the author is wrong or are you too in denial?
So your whole argument is that free will exists because the mind (as the source of will) is separate from the brain, and isn't composed of deterministic particle physics? Without even discussing how that's based on a false premise, it still can't be the case. As we've covered earlier in the thread, free will is an internally inconsistent idea. It entails that our choices are not random, yet not deterministic. Well I'm afraid those are the only two options. You can't have something that's neither.
Reply With Quote
  #284  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:55 AM
Pee Vee Proots, M.D. Pee Vee Proots, M.D. is offline
Marquis
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: In a little plastic bag
Thanks: 852
Thanked 732 Times in 544 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

In the strictest sense no. Everything happens directly as a result of the thing that happened immediately before it. It's been this way since the beginning of time. Everything that happened was going to happen, because of all the things that happened before it and everything that happens will happen for the same reason.
Reply With Quote
  #285  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:32 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
So your whole argument is that free will exists because the mind (as the source of will) is separate from the brain
I had many arguments, this was not one of them. I'm not a compatibilist but I didn't want to exclude that from what I wrote either--hadn't even considered that.
Quote:
Without even discussing how that's based on a false premise
That's what I'm asking you to discuss; remember: the minimalist hypothesis proves that the mind ("personality") exists outside the body.

Quote:
it still can't be the case.
This is what Edwards tried to prove and what Almeder demolished. I'm sure whatever argument you were going to use is addressed in Almeder; prove me wrong.

Quote:
As we've covered earlier in the thread, free will is an internally inconsistent idea. It entails that our choices are not random, yet not deterministic. Well I'm afraid those are the only two options. You can't have something that's neither.
Or we could just not understand free will--it could be the fundamental mystery of the Universe as we have been told by some--the very reason for God's existence. You've shown that you don't understand past lives, perhaps understanding them will give you more hints on the free will problem--I've already shown why they are important and you did not address this so I assumed you had agreed that free will naturally involves karma from past and present lives.
Reply With Quote
  #286  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:59 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
Or we could just not understand free will--it could be the fundamental mystery of the Universe as we have been told by some--the very reason for God's existence. You've shown that you don't understand past lives, perhaps understanding them will give you more hints on the free will problem--I've already shown why they are important and you did not address this so I assumed you had agreed that free will naturally involves karma from past and present lives.
I'm not agreeing to shit about karma. What I'm trying to do is save you some time. Even if we have absolute proof of karma (we have next to 0 proof of karma), free will will never logically exist. It can not exist the our universe. There is no way for something to not be deterministic, but not random at the same time. That's like saying 1 = 2 or something. An object, by definition, can not possess both properties at the same time. It's not a matter of incomplete understanding, it's a deductively sound conclusion, no discovery will _ever_ over turn that basic fact.
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:53 PM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

"There is no way for something to not be deterministic, but not random at the same time."

What about co-creation and chaotic systems? What about quantum superposition (it doesn't solve the problem, but it IS a counterexample). Past lives throw a wrench in your argument because you don't know if personality transfer functions by these same mechanisms or if there is another level of reality where a higher causal structure exists. Personality transfer does not happen at the gross material level so it does not necessarily follow these rules.

You are using the modus operandi problem just like Edwards and this simply an argument from ignorance. You will not lose or waste any time by reading about Almeder's writings on modus operandi, in fact you will only save me and yourself time from having to repeat arguments (instead, read the text and find the best arguments and the best responses).

Quote:
He develops this argument again in Chapter 15. The obvious response to the
author here is that one may well know that something has occurred without
knowing how it occurs, and a failure to know how it occurs does not undermine
the evidence that it occurs. In the definition of reincarnation offered above, the
evidence confirming it confirms nothing about how it occurs but only that it
occurs, and no defensible form of reincarnation need deal with any form of the
modus operandi problem. The author seems to think that we cannot know that
Citation won the fourth race at Suffolk Downs unless we know how he did it.
At any rate, as the definition above makes explicit, the essential reincarnation
hypothesis can be shown to be true without our being able to show how it occurs,
or why it occurs, or how often it occurs, or whether everybody reincarnates
in this minimalist way.
So again I will plead with you to answer the best arguments--yes, you have to read arguments before you can respond.
Reply With Quote
  #288  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:56 PM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Confused Re: Does Randomness exist?

The paper again so you don't have to go back a page and waste precious clicks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:01 PM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

When you don't read... the argument leaves you behind. Edwards has given basically the same argument and has analyzed it from several angles, but it's still a failure:
Quote:
Interestingly, here the author says that although we
sometimes know (as in the case of aspirin, for example) that something was
the case without being able to say how it occurred, in the case of reincarnation
we have not even the foggiest idea how the scars move around. (p. 140) Unfortunately,
the author claims that this modus operandi problem, as he explicates
it, is "fatal" not only for birthmark cases, but also for the entire reincarnation theory.

[Now that Stevenson's 2-volume casebook has been published], the author can begin anew showing joyfully that such body scars did not
and could not occur because we do not know how they could occur in the way
depicted. Doubtless, the author is so committed to the modus operandi problem
that he will infer it a waste of time and money to read these two volumes,
since he already knows that, given this fatal objection, all the cases presented
must be instances of fraud, delusion, hoax, sloppy methodology, holy lies or
insanity.

Edwards didn't respond to these arguments from Almeder and I won't be surprised if you are also incapable. Read up on the modus operandi at least, I would like to respect your time in the same way that you respect mine.
Reply With Quote
  #290  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:25 PM
PirateJoe's Avatar
PirateJoe PirateJoe is offline
Moonmeister
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Big Rock Candy Mountains
Thanks: 118
Thanked 288 Times in 165 Posts
Grin Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obbe View Post
Order and chaos. Seem to be opposites. Are really one thing.
Quote:
Stepping back a bit, we now know that complexity arises in the middle ground, at the onset of chaos—the order-disorder border. Natural systems that evolve with and learn from interaction with their immediate environment exhibit both struc- tural order and dynamical chaos. Order is the foundation of communication be- tween elements at any level of organization, whether that refers to a population of neurons, bees, or humans. For an organism order is the distillation of regularities abstracted from observations. An organism’s very form is a functional manifesta- tion of its ancestor’s evolutionary and its own developmental memory.
A completely ordered universe, however, would be dead. Chaos is necessary for life. Behavioral diversity, to take an example, is fundamental to an organism’s survival. No organism can model the environment in its entirety. Approximation becomes essential to any system with finite resources. Chaos, as we now understand it, is the dynamical mechanism by which nature develops constrained and useful randomness. And from it follow diversity and the ability to anticipate the uncertain future.
I highly suggest Lanny read this whole paper, here.
__________________
[COLOR="Red"]l[/COLOR][COLOR="Orange"]o[/COLOR][COLOR="Yellow"]l, [/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]f[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]o[/COLOR][COLOR="Blue"]r[/COLOR][COLOR="Plum"]u[/COLOR][COLOR="Purple"]m[/COLOR]

Last edited by PirateJoe; 04-06-2012 at 10:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Old 04-07-2012, 01:08 AM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Mad Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
"There is no way for something to not be deterministic, but not random at the same time."

What about co-creation and chaotic systems? What about quantum superposition (it doesn't solve the problem, but it IS a counterexample). Past lives throw a wrench in your argument because you don't know if personality transfer functions by these same mechanisms or if there is another level of reality where a higher causal structure exists. Personality transfer does not happen at the gross material level so it does not necessarily follow these rules.
You want me to read a 27 page paper? How about you try reading my one or two paragraph posts before responding? You apparently didn't read my post because if you had you'd realize that I'm not arguing against "personality transfer" (which is still wrong) but rather accepting it for the sake of argument. I'm telling you that even if personality transfer happens (still doesn't) that it wouldn't create free will, because
free will is internally inconsistent
free will is internally inconsistent
free will is internally inconsistent
free will is internally inconsistent
free will is internally inconsistent
free will is internally inconsistent
.

Say it three times slowly. If anything was possible and unicorns pranced between the stars, free will would still be impossible. There is no possible ruleset by which free will can come about.

I have no idea what co-creation is, but it's not relevant. Chaotic systems? Chaotic systems are still deterministic, almost by definition, and still not relevant. And quantum superposition? Still not relevant. The idea of non-compatibilist free will is the same as saying "A and not A" or "This pencil is yellow and not yellow". It's just not valid, end of story.

Quote:
You are using the modus operandi problem just like Edwards and this simply an argument from ignorance. You will not lose or waste any time by reading about Almeder's writings on modus operandi, in fact you will only save me and yourself time from having to repeat arguments (instead, read the text and find the best arguments and the best responses).
No, I'm not, read my posts .
Reply With Quote
  #292  
Old 04-07-2012, 06:40 PM
Figure-8's Avatar
Figure-8 Figure-8 is offline
Grand Duke
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: God's Pineal Gland
Thanks: 3,020
Thanked 1,429 Times in 1,041 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
Anecdotal and irrelevant.

/argument
I'm sorry that's a game and requires no thought, it's literally built into a defense mechanism for you to even think of saying that.

You are denying this because you simply don't understand it, it is something that happens and grows literally with understanding, therefore you are entrapping yourself in that style of thinking.

That is the nature of this universe, for all of you, and when you or another directly conceives the possibility, it becomes more apparent for all.

This is not understood by western science because it lacks the same in that area as western medicine lacks in the area of medicine.

It is simply. Western medicine does not satisfy the requirements of the body, mind and emotional processes. No one theory or design does, or can. Not for everyone, or simply for the whole. Which does exist as no matter how many heads are in the sand, those who make the decision to continue to expand upon this knowledge of the larger workings of the Universe. It is enabled by mind, it is developed through a relationship between conscious self-observation and the forces of the physical universe.

Thus it is ( as it has been put before) 'a rate of rate of change'. It is the amount of awareness one puts into the awareness of their awareness that enables them to see outside themselves or their individual barriers and collect more information about the bigger picture.

This individual/multiplicity of self-awareness and interchanging perception of the center comes with a balanced sense of humanity as we are universal beings no matter what any partial minded science and actual religion and form of control, tells you.

Telling against the experience doesn't work, because there are always those who have already had it, so then when the majority of it is telling people against their experiences, it is simply another system of control. A system of inhibition, not for safety, but for limitation. It is natural in some situations, but when it supersedes conscious thought and imaginative expansion, it is in overabundance and toxic to the information generating process as it can happen in a free-system of mind.
__________________
I am dreaming here, every post is an expression of what I dream.
(READ)THINK KNOW DO ~ J.H.&T
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Old 04-07-2012, 07:18 PM
SIdt SIdt is offline
Wealthy Merchant
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Thanks: 46
Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts
Lightbulb Re: Does Randomness exist?

Assuming a finite universe. No.
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
nshanin (09-21-2012)
  #294  
Old 04-07-2012, 07:33 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Anecdotal and irrelevant? Are you serious? YOU are the one who cunt pasted a DREAM you had into a thread about DETERMINISM! JESUS FUCKING CHRIST! No way you're that stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Figure-8 View Post
You are denying this because you simply don't understand it, it is something that happens and grows literally with understanding, therefore you are entrapping yourself in that style of thinking.
I'm not denying anything, shit for brains! I'm conceding your stupid personality-transfer premise for the sake of argument, but you don't seem to have the mental capacity to understand that concept.

Quote:
That is the nature of this universe, for all of you, and when you or another directly conceives the possibility, it becomes more apparent for all.
That's not even a sentence!

Quote:
This is not understood by western science because it lacks the same in that area as western medicine lacks in the area of medicine.

It is simply. Western medicine does not satisfy the requirements of the body, mind and emotional processes. No one theory or design does, or can. Not for everyone, or simply for the whole. Which does exist as no matter how many heads are in the sand, those who make the decision to continue to expand upon this knowledge of the larger workings of the Universe. It is enabled by mind, it is developed through a relationship between conscious self-observation and the forces of the physical universe.

Thus it is ( as it has been put before) 'a rate of rate of change'. It is the amount of awareness one puts into the awareness of their awareness that enables them to see outside themselves or their individual barriers and collect more information about the bigger picture.

This individual/multiplicity of self-awareness and interchanging perception of the center comes with a balanced sense of humanity as we are universal beings no matter what any partial minded science and actual religion and form of control, tells you.

Telling against the experience doesn't work, because there are always those who have already had it, so then when the majority of it is telling people against their experiences, it is simply another system of control. A system of inhibition, not for safety, but for limitation. It is natural in some situations, but when it supersedes conscious thought and imaginative expansion, it is in overabundance and toxic to the information generating process as it can happen in a free-system of mind.
Die in a fire ate
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
SIdt (04-07-2012)
  #295  
Old 04-07-2012, 08:12 PM
SIdt SIdt is offline
Wealthy Merchant
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Thanks: 46
Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts
Lightbulb Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
No way you're that stupid.
I thought that at first, but to be that good a troll would require a depth of knowledge about pseudoscience that only a pseud could possess.
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Old 04-07-2012, 09:25 PM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
I'm not denying anything, shit for brains! I'm conceding your stupid personality-transfer premise for the sake of argument, but you don't seem to have the mental capacity to understand that concept.
You admitted that just now and no earlier; nonetheless, I'm glad you have admitted that the mind is not strictly material and is not strictly limited to the body (you have not shown how all personality transfers involved material transmission such as fraud, so you have accepted "for the sake of argument" the minimalist hypothesis and not just "personality transfer"). How are we to understand will/determinism when there is no ready material cause for the things a mind experiences when outside the body? You admitted your confusion on this, since some outside non-physical process interacts with the mind and your determinism has not yet been shown to apply there. Hence, we do not live in the world where determinism and free will are inconsistent; it looks like your accepting my premise "for the sake of argument" ends here because you cannot even comprehend what a non-physical cause would look like much less say whether it was deterministic.

You are not speaking to me in good faith, you are rehashing Edwards' modus operandi argument poorly and then you try to tell me that I'm not reading what you are writing? Remove the beam from your own eye and then we can focus on dust motes; if you throw away highly-concentrated knowledge argued very clearly and scientifically (by a philosopher who has thought about both past lives and free will longer than you have) then ate and I totally have the right to say that you are in denial and are using an elaborate defense mechanism.
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
Figure-8 (04-08-2012)
  #297  
Old 04-07-2012, 09:33 PM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

You can't tell me personality transfer doesn't exist without backing up what you say--all you have so far is this perceived inconsistency which only works if you already assume the world is material. If both causes and minds can be non-physical, it is not a stretch to say that will can be non-physical, and being non-physical, is not incompatible with physical determinism with which it exists side-by-side.
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Old 04-07-2012, 09:41 PM
chilldo chilldo is offline
Knight
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Thanks: 20
Thanked 67 Times in 59 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

youre just asking about the age old question of determinism (google determinism or "does free will exist"), no you havent uncovered anything that hasent already been debated to death.
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Old 04-07-2012, 09:55 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
You admitted that just now and no earlier;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
You apparently didn't read my post because if you had you'd realize that I'm not arguing against "personality transfer" (which is still wrong) but rather accepting it for the sake of argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
Without even discussing how that's based on a false premise, it still can't be the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
I'm not agreeing to shit about karma.
You're a know-nothing dipshit.

Quote:
How are we to understand will/determinism when there is no ready material cause for the things a mind experiences when outside the body?
"ready material cause". What is that? What dose it mean? I have no idea, you're being incoherent.

Quote:
You admitted your confusion on this, since some outside non-physical process interacts with the mind and your determinism has not yet been shown to apply there.
OK, please read this part of my post a few times, because you're clearly not grasping it. All processes in the universe, in any universe, in all possible universes, are either deterministic or random. One or the other. There is not middle ground. It's a dichotomy. Neither random, nor deterministic systems have room for free will. So whatever process affects the mind out in your magical fairy land, it's either deterministic or random. Those are the only two options. So which is it? It doesn't matter because nothing that happens in your magical (and non-existent) space between death and rebirth can possibly create free will. period. end of story. ITS FUCKING CONCLUDED!

Quote:
Hence, we do not live in the world where determinism and free will are inconsistent; it looks like your accepting my premise "for the sake of argument" ends here because you cannot even comprehend what a non-physical cause would look like much less say whether it was deterministic.
It doesn't matter what a non-physical cause looks like or how it behaves. It's either random or deterministic. Those are the two options. Neither allows for free will. It doesn't matter if it's non-physical or not. A thing can not be neither. I mean, fuck dude, how many times do I have to explain it? Figure it the fuck out. I fully comprehend your argument, but mine seems wasted on you.

Quote:
You are not speaking to me in good faith, you are rehashing Edwards' modus operandi argument poorly and then you try to tell me that I'm not reading what you are writing?
Instead of telling me that I'm rehashing Edwards argument, why don't you actually address one of my posts? You haven't, you just keep spewing this bullshit about Modus Operandi. What is the "modus operandi" problem you keep going on about? No, don't point me to a 27 page article, tell me in a paragraph or two. YOU tell me.

Quote:
Remove the beam from your own eye and then we can focus on dust motes;
Shut the fuck up dude. Remove the stick from your ass and talk like a regular human you self-righteous prick.

Quote:
if you throw away highly-concentrated knowledge argued very clearly and scientifically (by a philosopher who has thought about both past lives and free will longer than you have) then ate and I totally have the right to say that you are in denial and are using an elaborate defense mechanism.
You're a philosopher?



You can die in a fire too, faggot
Reply With Quote
  #300  
Old 04-07-2012, 10:43 PM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

You have to quote a past post, not the same post where you're repeating yourself without reference (lol, self-reference as though I was supposed to guess that you were accepting something for argument's sake when you were sooooo resistant). I apparently didn't read the post you were talking about (not the recent one, dude) because you didn't reference it--can you do it? That's as far as I got before the ennui set in and I realized the task ahead of me.

Karma is cause and effect in the non-material realm. It has to exist since things "occur" there and minds inhabit it (typically right after death), exercising their will. Reincarnation research proves this but you dismiss it offhand just like Edwards with his modus operandi (don't be a fool, use a search tool).

Ignore the word "ready", the point is no mind can acquire information it does not have access to by material means... under materialism, which is equivalent to your incompatibilism.

I'm not the philosopher that I linked you to. Almeder is a philosopher, so is Edwards (he's thought about these issues more than you too!) and they are both clever although Almeder won the debate. I wish your reading comprehension was better so I could correct you on important shit instead.

Quote:
why don't you actually address one of my posts? You haven't, you just keep spewing this bullshit about Modus Operandi.
I've been talking about it for a while, it can't be my fault that you think it's bullshit. Just search "modus" or "operandi" in that PDF; it's up to you to understand the argument because I am using a philosophy term that is very specific and is exactly what your argument is.

Quote:
OK, please read this part of my post a few times, because you're clearly not grasping it. All processes in the universe, in any universe, in all possible universes, are either deterministic or random. One or the other. There is not middle ground. It's a dichotomy. Neither random, nor deterministic systems have room for free will. So whatever process affects the mind out in your magical fairy land, it's either deterministic or random. Those are the only two options. So which is it? It doesn't matter because nothing that happens in your magical (and non-existent) space between death and rebirth can possibly create free will. period. end of story. ITS FUCKING CONCLUDED!
I don't know why you hold this dogma: you are only aware of how the material world operates and cannot make an absolute claim about all of reality which may or may not be material (there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are imaginable in your quite constrained philosophy--mine too. This is a truth more final than your dualism which you attempt to explain by using emphasis and vulgarity).

What if I told you that all matter and non-matter had mind and it was always making choices (based on its will and its own karma/determined past)? This would be a self-consistent epistemology that avoids your dualism because mind is capable of making choices in an idealist or Cartesian world. The universe could be completely random at one level and completely determined at another, it could also be neither--you could be using words that mean something completely different, for instance, what you mean by determinism could actually be karma. Just because order/randomness is in our equations doesn't mean shit and you have absolutely no way to explain these verified memories, birthmarks, skills, etc. without resorting to fraud as an explanation. You are in a pickle.
Reply With Quote
  #301  
Old 04-07-2012, 10:46 PM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

More on choice and determinism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed...quantum_eraser
Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 04-07-2012, 11:35 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
I don't know why you hold this dogma: you are only aware of how the material world operates and cannot make an absolute claim about all of reality which may or may not be material (there are more things in Heaven and Earth than are imaginable in your quite constrained philosophy--mine too. This is a truth more final than your dualism which you attempt to explain by using emphasis and vulgarity).
You can't make any claims about how things work in magical fairy land either. That's like, the entire premise of your silly minimalist theory, that we don't know the mechanism by which personality transfer (doesn't) happen. How can you say there are mystical forces over there that can magically be self-contradictory and still work?
Reply With Quote
  #303  
Old 04-07-2012, 11:49 PM
Figure-8's Avatar
Figure-8 Figure-8 is offline
Grand Duke
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: God's Pineal Gland
Thanks: 3,020
Thanked 1,429 Times in 1,041 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

It must be decided by the one who is experiences it.
__________________
I am dreaming here, every post is an expression of what I dream.
(READ)THINK KNOW DO ~ J.H.&T
Reply With Quote
  #304  
Old 04-07-2012, 11:50 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

8=====D~~~
Reply With Quote
  #305  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:03 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
You can't make any claims about how things work in magical fairy land either. That's like, the entire premise of your silly minimalist theory, that we don't know the mechanism by which personality transfer (doesn't) happen. How can you say there are mystical forces over there that can magically be self-contradictory and still work?
It's up to you to show it doesn't happen; I have linked you to too much evidence to ignore and then linked you to a comprehensive philosophical overview that tells you why it CAN happen. All that's stopping your understanding is your clinging to dualism.

I don't know how reincarnation works, but the minimalist hypothesis is a good start. Anything that doesn't build on the hypothesis is denying reality. Can you show me why the hypothesis is wrong and doesn't happen? No you cannot, you would have to believe in an elaborate fraud that even the most credulous conspiracy theorist couldn't fathom. Whether dualism is right is up for debate, but you have yet to debate what is wrong with this evidence while maintaining that it is wrong. This is why I say you have not balls nor brains to back up what you say.
Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:06 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

The opposite of something random is something that is directed. It is not something that is determined.
Reply With Quote
  #307  
Old 04-08-2012, 05:50 AM
Figure-8's Avatar
Figure-8 Figure-8 is offline
Grand Duke
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: God's Pineal Gland
Thanks: 3,020
Thanked 1,429 Times in 1,041 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
Anecdotal and irrelevant? YOU are the one who cunt pasted a DREAM you had into a thread about DETERMINISM!.
de·ter·min·ism/diˈtərməˌnizəm/
Noun:
The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.

So then I predicted the future of reality then, in your words now.

So do you have a working model for how this happens?

Or can you or do you choose to not believe in that?



Here I'll put it like this:

What determined the prediction?

What determined the information that lead to the predicted event actually happening.

Was the even in question and such variables regarding the information involved actually determined to be, above anything I can decide?
Quote:
I'm not denying anything.
The truth is, you got a bigger challenge. It's them. It's you. It's in the environment, it's the understanding of space and time itself.

I don't want you to believe anything you're not ready to, that's the point.

But I'm not lying to you and I'm sure I've thought of all the reasons for being confused that you have, given I've had the time and resources.

So really, now, couldn't you be more open to expanding on the thought?

No, because, no? Nah, you could, just give in a little to the creativity and give it some time.

It does make sense, there is a working model, this is the better explanation then the "closed" circuited purely three-dimensional view that is contained within western thinking.

It is very simple, like putting certain shaped blocks into certain shaped cut-outs in wood, yet the blocks are the experiences trying to fit into the more expanse universe.

The smaller, misshapen, gap containing view of the world and human consciousness experience (through each other) of the purely western mind (which is BASED UPON LINEARITY and PHYSICALITY IE: DUALITY), cannot ever and will not hold the entire planet of human history or experience. It only works when the rest is shut out.

So rather than tossing fire onto the situation of THAT, creative expansion fills the gaps. AND IF NOT, then what the hell, are we afraid of imagining magical higher dimensional worlds at this point? The magic is that they actually exist, wrapped up within what we consider our experience.
__________________
I am dreaming here, every post is an expression of what I dream.
(READ)THINK KNOW DO ~ J.H.&T
Reply With Quote
  #308  
Old 04-08-2012, 01:00 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
It's up to you to show it doesn't happen;
No, it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Quote:
I don't know how reincarnation works, but the minimalist hypothesis is a good start. Anything that doesn't build on the hypothesis is denying reality.
Still wrong, but "building on the minimalist hypothesis" in no way implies or allows the idea of free will, which is inherently contradictory.

Quote:
Can you show me why the hypothesis is wrong and doesn't happen?
Again, the burden of proof is on you. But just because I'm nice, I've gone ahead and shown you that free will can't exist, so your entire argument is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
The opposite of something random is something that is directed. It is not something that is determined.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Figure-8 View Post
de·ter·min·ism/diˈtərməˌnizəm/
Noun:
The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will.

So then I predicted the future of reality then, in your words now.
Prescience requires determinism.

Quote:
So do you have a working model for how this happens?
What? You thinking you predicted the future? Sure, you took too many drugs, tripped out, and when something happened in the real world that was sorta similar to what you hallucinated, you called it predicting the future. How's that for a working model.

Quote:
What determined the information that lead to the predicted event actually happening.
That sentence doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Was the even in question and such variables regarding the information involved actually determined to be, above anything I can decide?
I'd like some ranch on that word salad. Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #309  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:25 PM
Obbe's Avatar
Obbe Obbe is offline
A Light Shining in Darkness
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Now
Thanks: 923
Thanked 1,110 Times in 817 Posts
Grin Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateJoe View Post
I highly suggest Lanny read this whole paper, here.
lanny ignored this?
__________________
All of the true things I am about to tell you are shameless lies.
&T
Reply With Quote
  #310  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:28 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obbe View Post
lanny ignored this?
No, I read it. The author basically argues for a deterministic universe, which makes sense.
Reply With Quote
  #311  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:37 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

You believe in a massive fraud of this nature? Then prove it. I believe that the mind exists beyond the body, that is more believable for me. There are no alternatives to these 2 options IN MY DICHOTOMY. I don't accept your dichotomy for reasons I've explained, you haven't even talked about mine. Will you talk about my dichotomy or just tell me that yours is the only one that matters?
Reply With Quote
  #312  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:39 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Is this what you believe, Lanny?

Quote:
such body scars did not and could not occur because we do not know how they could occur in the way depicted. Doubtless, the author is so committed to the modus operandi problem that he will infer it a waste of time and money to read these two volumes, since he already knows that, given this fatal objection, all the cases presented
must be instances of fraud, delusion, hoax, sloppy methodology, holy lies or insanity.
Reply With Quote
  #313  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:44 AM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

You know what? I'm just going to stop responding because you clearly don't have the intellectual capacity to hold up an intelligent discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #314  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:57 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

So you want to ignore my dichotomy like I ignored yours? But I didn't ignore it, I talked about it. You won't talk about mine and so you look like an ignoramus. Do you believe in this fraud or not? If not, what could have caused these children to have these scars and these memories? If you follow me for a few posts and at least try to address my dichotomy then I can go back to addressing yours.

Don't pretend like I'm stupid when you refuse to explain yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #315  
Old 04-09-2012, 08:07 AM
nshanin's Avatar
nshanin nshanin is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 1,007
Thanked 545 Times in 404 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Lanny accuses me of lacking intellect, but Lanny refuses to do the very thing Lanny asked me to do (understand the dichotomy)! As soon as I asked Lanny to do this, in order to save face, Lanny left the argument! Tell me if you have any other interpretation, it's not that shameful to retract what you said and post/respond again; doubtless though, Lanny won't respond as though held by an oath which is only an oath to Lanny's own ignorance. Lanny hates discourse.

I declare myself the winner by default and reincarnation research to be supportive of the minimalist hypothesis until further notice or until Lanny tries again to explain his/her position. I double dubstep dog dare you, Lanny.
Reply With Quote
  #316  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:05 AM
Spacecase's Avatar
Spacecase Spacecase is offline
Home Skillet
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: This place is a face
Thanks: 670
Thanked 569 Times in 381 Posts
Arrow Re: Does Randomness exist?

There is nothing anybody can do for you. There is nothing you can do for yourself. There is nothing you can do for anybody, and this is the basis of free will. If anybody could do anything for you, it wouldn't be them doing it. If you could do anything for yourself, it's already done. If you could do anything for anybody, it wouldn't be you doing it.

The self is a concept that proves to be very elusive. We cannot rightfully draw any lines anywhere and expect them to be valid. We have to look at this paradox from multi-dimensional bird's eye view if we want to gather a little more insight.

You are a conscious being. You choose all, but intentionally left open ends. Right from the very beginning you have been holding under your many layers that leftover piece of zero, but you came into this knowing that all things erode, and that only nothing is safe from this. You gave yourself choices, but the truth is that depending on how far into the sky you dare to look, at a certain point you remember that choices are simply like splits in a train track made out of water.

Our brains hate knowing they aren't real though (cause they definitely feel pretty real most of the time!), so during the time you find yourself using one, settling on a method of adapting to the constant flux of abstraction and structure is only made possible by having to play pretend that the train (us) is actually accomplishing something, which is as true as it is false.

So I think randomness is born from nothing, but that everything is a choice based on this.

An true act of kindness is seeing through the window of matter-morphing perception into the water that is our soul, and maneuvering it in such a way that helps accomplish our ultimate goal together - erosion.
__________________
Tw'once upon a tine, there was a mailer who sailed the seven seasons of his sole
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
nshanin (09-21-2012)
  #317  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:28 PM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Fine faggots, I can see how it's going to be. I will have the last post in this thread .

Quote:
Originally Posted by nshanin View Post
You believe in a massive fraud of this nature? Then prove it. I believe that the mind exists beyond the body, that is more believable for me. There are no alternatives to these 2 options IN MY DICHOTOMY. I don't accept your dichotomy for reasons I've explained, you haven't even talked about mine. Will you talk about my dichotomy or just tell
me that yours is the only one that matters?
You're wrong, the mind doesn't exist outside the body. This is demonstrably true. But again, for the millionth time, it's irrelevant to this thread. It doesn't matter where the mind exists. No matter where the mind is, it's either deterministic or random. So yeah, let's say the mind exists out in fairy land. As long as fairy land has systems in it (it does since you said fairy land has minds), those systems will either be random or deterministic. There is no law of nature that might be altered in fairy land as to allow free will to exist.

Quote:
I declare myself the winner by default and reincarnation research to be supportive of the minimalist hypothesis until further notice or until Lanny tries again to explain his/her position. I double dubstep dog dare you, Lanny.
Eat a dick brah.
Reply With Quote
  #318  
Old 04-09-2012, 08:54 PM
Obbe's Avatar
Obbe Obbe is offline
A Light Shining in Darkness
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Now
Thanks: 923
Thanked 1,110 Times in 817 Posts
Grin Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
You're wrong, the mind doesn't exist outside the body.
The mind and the body are inaccurate abstractions attempting to define the undefinable. Wrong is relative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
There is no law of nature that might be altered in fairy land as to allow free will to exist.
From a particular perspective freewill does not exist, but neither does Lanny. From this perspective free will is merely an illusion, as is Lanny.

From another perspective, freewill is what you do, and Lanny is who you are.

From each of these perspectives the other perspective may appear to be wrong.
__________________
All of the true things I am about to tell you are shameless lies.
&T
Reply With Quote
  #319  
Old 04-10-2012, 12:40 AM
Lanny Lanny is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tarth
Thanks: 1,377
Thanked 1,868 Times in 1,339 Posts
Default Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obbe View Post
The mind and the body are inaccurate abstractions attempting to define the undefinable. Wrong is relative.
How is the mind or the body undefinable? Sure there are things which may blur the line (is cancer part of the body?) but that doesn't mean that "body" is undefinable. We just may have to refine our definitions as new factors come into play.
Reply With Quote
  #320  
Old 04-10-2012, 02:08 AM
Obbe's Avatar
Obbe Obbe is offline
A Light Shining in Darkness
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Now
Thanks: 923
Thanked 1,110 Times in 817 Posts
Grin Re: Does Randomness exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny View Post
How is the mind or the body undefinable? Sure there are things which may blur the line (is cancer part of the body?) but that doesn't mean that "body" is undefinable. We just may have to refine our definitions as new factors come into play.
I didn't say the mind and the body are undefinable, I said the mind and the body are inaccurate abstractions attempting to define the undefinable.
__________________
All of the true things I am about to tell you are shameless lies.
&T
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
exist, randomness

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
God does not exist Keith Lemon Religion and Spirituality 62 10-30-2010 06:49 PM
God doesn't not exist Captain Falcon The Trashcan 8 10-18-2010 06:56 PM
How the universe can exist 0omnidirectional Religion and Spirituality 81 09-26-2010 11:32 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:01 PM.


Hot Topics
Join our Chatroom!
Users: 8
Messages/minute: 0
Topic: "Only rule: be nice or I'll cut your fucking face off, dumbshit"
Users: 27
Messages/minute: 1.6
Topic: "http://codelove.org :: Below is above in 2 codes 1 love. :: wh..."
Users: 18
Messages/minute: 5
Topic: "http://www.literotica...."
Advertisements
Your ad could go right HERE! Contact us!

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.