Zoklet.net

Go Back   Zoklet.net > Society > Religion and Spirituality

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-09-2012, 08:49 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default the world you see holds nothing. . . .

A Course in Miracles sez:

"The world you see holds nothing that you need to offer you; nothing that you can use in any way, nor anything at all that serves to give you joy. Believe this thought, and you are saved from years of misery, from countless disappointments, and hopes that turn to bitter ashes of despair. No one but must accept this thought as true, if he would leave the world behind and soar beyond its petty scope and little ways.

"Each thing you value here is but chain that binds you to this world, and it will serve no oher end but this. For eveerything must serve the purpose you have given it, until yous ee a different purpose there. The only purporse worthy of your mind this world contains is that you pass it by, without delaying to perceive some hope where there is none. Be you deceived no more. The world you see holds nothing that you want."

ArmsMerchant sez: The above is difficult to understand, much less accept. It does NOT mean that we should despise worldly things--just that it is futile to seek our salvation there. I speak from experience.

Nothing outside yourself can harm you; nothing outside yourself can save you. Only your mind can do either. Too often, we choose the former and eschew the latter.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
CountBlah (03-10-2012), sauraloka (03-13-2012), yawanur (03-16-2012)
  #2  
Old 03-10-2012, 12:26 AM
ergoat's Avatar
ergoat ergoat is offline
filthy s'wit
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: girt by sea
Thanks: 300
Thanked 644 Times in 434 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

"Where are ideas?" is the crucial question I get from your OP. If nothing outside the mind can save you or harm you, and ideas reside within the mind, then the ideas presented in the course can't save you. If ideas are both inside your mind and outside your mind (i.e. in other minds, in forms of media etc) -- which is extremely problematic to prove -- then maybe you can fit it all in nice and neat.

But I know that wasn't really your point, it's just an interesting feature that I wouldn't mean seeing an explanation for. I mean, there are a bunch of really easy ways that most gurus will explain things like this, and one of them is the ever-frustrating "reality is all in your mind anyway" line, which I find a bit misleading. It's true that perception is all in your mind, but the terms reality and perception aren't one to one by my definition, and in my opinion they are only ever equated when you get into the problematic contradictions between people's viewpoints.

I think I've presented something similar in relation to other things, but I've never like this exclusionary approach to the physical world. Obviously spirituality must go beyond the physical if it is to exist, but that doesn't necessitate a denial or sidelining of the base of human experience. I think there are quite a few things, based in physical reality, that provide joy. No, it is not eternal, but our physical bodies are mortal.

And now for my own insincere claim that will link up everything nicely: it is from the physical that we generate experiences that lead to transcendence, so that if it is true that nothing in the world holds anything we want (which I'm not entirely convinced of), the physical is either useful to approach divinity or enlightenment or miraculous rebirth (and so the world holds something we want, at least according to the course), or it is not and this waiting room might as well turn into a rave, a tea-party, a critical discussion of world politics, or a full-blown orgy, and since you won't get anywhere by ignoring these things, you may as well make your wait more enjoyable by doing what gives you joy.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-10-2012, 03:15 AM
Spacecase's Avatar
Spacecase Spacecase is offline
Home Skillet
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: This place is a face
Thanks: 670
Thanked 569 Times in 381 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ergoat View Post
And now for my own insincere claim that will link up everything nicely: it is from the physical that we generate experiences that lead to transcendence, so that if it is true that nothing in the world holds anything we want (which I'm not entirely convinced of), the physical is either useful to approach divinity or enlightenment or miraculous rebirth (and so the world holds something we want, at least according to the course), or it is not and this waiting room might as well turn into a rave, a tea-party, a critical discussion of world politics, or a full-blown orgy, and since you won't get anywhere by ignoring these things, you may as well make your wait more enjoyable by doing what gives you joy.
I think a healthy balance between the two sets of two is where we can most contentedly reside. If we take into account that the infinite is only possible by there being a finite existence to stem from, and that the finite is only possible by there being an endless (well, it loops, but the structure and conscious architecture is what is always growing and therefore endless) track to run along - you need to ask yourself why you find your "self" right in the middle of it.

Meaning seek the endless joy and mystery of the eternal, but see that to literally place it in a finite box by slicing and cropping it (by assuming, believing anything 100%, disregarding the true unity of humanity [and therefore causing unnecessary harm, even unintentionally], or anything that simply does not feel right in a self-aware state of mind) is literally the source of every conflict.

Which also means we have to take into account that conflict is what allows the finite to become more like the infinite, from our finite perspective. Which means there is some sort of magical intergration that we simply have not stumbled upon yet (and are apparently in the grand midst of doing so) which will allow us to shift our perspective back into the infinite, and see that the finite is really nothing but the infinite from a cropped perspective. Which would then literally turn every conflict into a positive non-threatening challenge of sorts; A sort of world peace in-the-making.

BUT, in your seeking of joy, see that you will find misery.
In your seeking of the eternal, know you have the face the finite.
Unless you can figure out a way of consciously creating reality that no longer has a "cropper", we have to accept that evil and harm is as real as we are.
__________________
Tw'once upon a tine, there was a mailer who sailed the seven seasons of his sole
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-10-2012, 04:04 AM
ergoat's Avatar
ergoat ergoat is offline
filthy s'wit
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: girt by sea
Thanks: 300
Thanked 644 Times in 434 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacecase View Post
I think a healthy balance between the two sets of two is where we can most contentedly reside. If we take into account that the infinite is only possible by there being a finite existence to stem from, and that the finite is only possible by there being an endless (well, it loops, but the structure and conscious architecture is what is always growing and therefore endless) track to run along - you need to ask yourself why you find your "self" right in the middle of it.
I don't. That's your retina and your 'cropping.' I have no real dispute with it though.

Quote:
Meaning seek the endless joy and mystery of the eternal, but see that to literally place it in a finite box by slicing and cropping it (by assuming, believing anything 100%, disregarding the true unity of humanity [and therefore causing unnecessary harm, even unintentionally], or anything that simply does not feel right in a self-aware state of mind) is literally the source of every conflict.
Problematic given your rejection of believing anything 100%, but otherwise I don't have a problem with this. That's not to say I agree with it, or think that arguing from the contorted posture of anything like "a self-aware state of mind" is conducive to a mostly logical discussion.

Quote:
Which also means we have to take into account that conflict is what allows the finite to become more like the infinite, from our finite perspective.
Sure. Based on the premises this makes sense.

Quote:
Which means there is some sort of magical intergration that we simply have not stumbled upon yet (and are apparently in the grand midst of doing so) which will allow us to shift our perspective back into the infinite, and see that the finite is really nothing but the infinite from a cropped perspective. Which would then literally turn every conflict into a positive non-threatening challenge of sorts; A sort of world peace in-the-making.
Yeah I'm not seeing this part at all. I see the analogy of integration but I fail to see how it's necessitated by the process of conflict-fueled perspective change. It's possible, but you haven't given any solid reasoning to suggest why it exists.

Quote:
BUT, in your seeking of joy, see that you will find misery.
In your seeking of the eternal, know you have the face the finite.
Unless you can figure out a way of consciously creating reality that no longer has a "cropper", we have to accept that evil and harm is as real as we are.
Well, if you mean that evil and harm are conceptual structures relative to an individual's diverse interests, then I'm not 100% sure they are as real as we are. If there are degrees of reality, I would place things that are fundamental elements of the discussion of reality (cogito ergo sum) above vastly more subjective moral concepts that people mostly inherit from other subjective sources with various agendas compelling them to spread the word re: evil and harm.

But you don't have to agree with that, and I expect you won't.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Dionysus's Avatar
Dionysus Dionysus is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 562
Thanked 1,047 Times in 719 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant View Post
A Course in Miracles sez:

"The world you see holds nothing that you need to offer you; nothing that you can use in any way, nor anything at all that serves to give you joy. Believe this thought, and you are saved from years of misery, from countless disappointments, and hopes that turn to bitter ashes of despair. No one but must accept this thought as true, if he would leave the world behind and soar beyond its petty scope and little ways.

"Each thing you value here is but chain that binds you to this world, and it will serve no oher end but this. For eveerything must serve the purpose you have given it, until yous ee a different purpose there. The only purporse worthy of your mind this world contains is that you pass it by, without delaying to perceive some hope where there is none. Be you deceived no more. The world you see holds nothing that you want."

ArmsMerchant sez: The above is difficult to understand, much less accept. It does NOT mean that we should despise worldly things--just that it is futile to seek our salvation there. I speak from experience.

Nothing outside yourself can harm you; nothing outside yourself can save you. Only your mind can do either. Too often, we choose the former and eschew the latter.
This seems to me to be the worst kind of nihilism. Even looking for salvation is a negating act in itself. Even adopting it as a context is suicidal, not to mention rather arbitrary. I think that this is the end result of a very specific and limited kind of thinking which is based on a very basic and reactionary morality. I see this kind of thing as a result entirely of a standard of values, and the justification for it is simply an outgrowth of that standard of values.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-11-2012, 03:50 PM
Built To Last's Avatar
Built To Last Built To Last is offline
Baron
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 127
Thanked 334 Times in 231 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ergoat View Post
"Where are ideas?" is the crucial question I get from your OP.
You're on the right track, but I think the better question is, "What are ideas?". Asking where they come from is assuming that we already have a thorough understanding of what they are.

Think of how people answer the question, "Who are you?" Some might say their name, what they like to do, a personality trait they have, who their related to, etc. But notice that while all of these might be qualities of who you are, they are not what you are.

The mind works in the same way: thoughts are always focused on something external to our own consciousness. The mind never thinks the thought of itself. Any meditator worth his salt can tell you this. Sitting in meditation and observing his mind, he finds the mind frantically jumping from memory, to emotion, to idea, to sense perception: "I wish that jackhammer would stop outside", "I really need to call my mother", "I should have talked to that cute brunette", "My life is a failure", "I'm such a keen meditator, I'll surely reach nirvana."

Of course, this will not work for those who think, "I am my consciousness".

Quote:
If nothing outside the mind can save you or harm you, and ideas reside within the mind, then the ideas presented in the course can't save you.
Exactly, its the blind leading the blind. No ideas can save you. You can't "try" to reach enlightenment, if enlightenment is a state of extinguished desire.
__________________
Life is too short. Eternity is too long. Hell is too hot.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-12-2012, 10:31 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
This seems to me to be the worst kind of nihilism. .
How is it nihilism to see oneself, in Truth, as a son of God--sinless, guiltless, wholly loved and wholly loveable?

How is it nihilism to See and feel in your heart that we are all brothers and sisters , all equal, and all worthy of regard, respect, and forgiveness?

How is it nihilism to see that nothing of value comes from accumulating expensive toys, or blindly rushing after wealth and fame--that all that really matters is manifesting love and forgiveness?

That said, ACIM does lay on the "world isn't real" stuff pretty thick--but the Vedas, and Buddhists, and various and sundry saints and mystics and Sufis and shamans (and the odd quantum physicist) say much the same thing.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM

Last edited by ArmsMerchant; 03-14-2012 at 06:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-13-2012, 04:13 AM
Dionysus's Avatar
Dionysus Dionysus is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 562
Thanked 1,047 Times in 719 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant View Post
How is it nihilism to see oneself, in Truth, as a son of God--sinless, guiltless, wholly loved and wholly loveable?

How is it nihilism to See and feel in your heart that we are all brothers and sisters , all equal, and all worthy of regard, respect, and forgiveness?

How is it nihilism to see that nothing of value comes from accumlating expensive toys, or blindly rushing after wealth and fame--that all that really matters is manifesting love and forgiveness?
Because that kind of behavior seems to me to be a reaction against suffering, and it can only result in nihilism. Denying the "real world" as a preemptive measure against the possibility of pain is not life affirming behavior. Homogenizing every person on the planet into equals is not life affirming behavior. What do you see as the end result of your philosophy? It is curious that if this was all related back to a family structure, you could argue that the people attracted to this are developmentally stunted.

I don't even think the assessments are wrong. I don't think anyone is "better" or "worse" than anyone else. I disagree with the values you have slapped on them, and it is contemptible to assume your VALUES are "true" for everyone.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-14-2012, 06:27 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Obviously, there are many differences betweeen folks--color, IQ, gender, and so on.

But before one can really grow spiritually, we need to be able to see past appearences, and value our brothers and sisters as equally loved and loveable--even our enemies. This dude called Jesus said much the same thing, as do every modern metaphysical writer I am familiar with--such as Neal Donald Walsch (CWG), Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle, Eknath Easwaran, Aldous Huxley (in The Perennial Philosohy, which popularized the phrase coined by Leibnitz), and several others I will most likely think of after I leave the library.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Dionysus's Avatar
Dionysus Dionysus is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 562
Thanked 1,047 Times in 719 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant View Post
Obviously, there are many differences betweeen folks--color, IQ, gender, and so on.

But before one can really grow spiritually, we need to be able to see past appearences, and value our brothers and sisters as equally loved and loveable--even our enemies. This dude called Jesus said much the same thing, as do every modern metaphysical writer I am familiar with--such as Neal Donald Walsch (CWG), Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer, Eckhart Tolle, Eknath Easwaran, Aldous Huxley (in The Perennial Philosohy, which popularized the phrase coined by Leibnitz), and several others I will most likely think of after I leave the library.
So one can only spiritually develop provided they love and value their "brothers" and "sisters"? What a fucking fascist attitude. What does love mean? How is it expressed consensually? If we are all one, then why is anything further necessary? Wouldn't we be expressing that unity no matter what label or value we slap on it?

You are not even specifically addressing what I said; you are just repeating your rather narrow opinion in the exact same fashion as you always do. Why even bother responding at all if you are incapable of communication? I suspect you are just a pathological narcissist that gets some kind of high from making pretend you are above it all. That, or your metaphysical truths are so intangible that they can only be perceived if you are constantly repeating a mantra. It is the morality of a slave who has been a victim his entire life, but doesn't have the balls to take responsibility for it. Or so it seems to me anyway.

Last edited by Dionysus; 03-15-2012 at 02:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-16-2012, 06:53 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

"Above it all"? On the contrary, I often repeat myself to the effect that since we are all One, no one is better than anyone else, and over the course of years and maybe 40,000 posts in various forums, relate anecdotes about stupid things I have done, in hopes that others may learn from my mistakes.

But as Burt Reynolds once said "You can show the kids where the land mines are, but they'll step on them anyway."

Most recent illustration of this came in a news story about the feds' new anti-smoking campaign, featuring real people who got cancer, heart disease, amputations and so on as a result of smoking. Gruesome, heavy stuff..Several young folks who were interviewed failed to see what this had to do with THEM, since they tend to believe--as many young folks do--that 1) they can get away with anything, being so special and/or2) their prefrontal cerebral cortex has not yet fully developed (that part of the brain which enables us to perceiove that actions have consequences.)

My heart goes out to young folks who choose to squander their money on a drug which is more addictive than heroin, and which makes them stink now and will make them sick later. I have nothing but sorrow and compassion for them.

Btw, I quit--after many failed attempts--on May 23, 2003--same time I gave up alcohol, pot and other drugs. I have backslid , obviously, on the "other drugs" thing, but I have remained tobacco-free and alcohol-free, which is why I am alive today.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM

Last edited by ArmsMerchant; 03-17-2012 at 07:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-16-2012, 10:06 PM
constantinople's Avatar
constantinople constantinople is offline
Acolyte
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: saythankyoubitch
Thanks: 2,104
Thanked 1,866 Times in 1,418 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to constantinople Send a message via AIM to constantinople Send a message via MSN to constantinople Send a message via Yahoo to constantinople
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

I don't agree with this thread at all...

On the subject of material goods that is. You just can't place any value in what can be taken away. But you sure as hell can enjoy it.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-16-2012, 10:42 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
Because that kind of behavior seems to me to be a reaction against suffering, and it can only result in nihilism. Denying the "values you have slapped on them, and it is contemptible to assume your VALUES are "true" for everyone.
1) We have free will. While pain may be mandatory, suffering is optional. It is a choice we make out of fear, ignorance, and the mistaken idea that we are our bodies. We--even you, a beloved Son of God-- are spiritual critters. These meat machines that we all ride aorund in for the time being are mere conveniences.

2) Many spiritual traditions maintain that the world we see is an illusion. I trust I need not list any of the many examples of them.( Btw, the world sure LOOKS flat--is it? It sure LOOKS like the sun goes around the earth? Does it? The table or desk in front of you LOOKS solid enough, but any physicist could tell you, it is mostly empty space.)

That said, I once read of an obscure sect of Tibetan Buddhists who maintain that the world of spirit is equally illusory.

I will concede that ACIM harps on that one string perhaps a tad too strongly--but then, I have not finished all 1200 or so pages of the book, and only about 135 of the 365 lessons. How about you? Or do you speak from ignorance?
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:47 AM
Dionysus's Avatar
Dionysus Dionysus is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Thanks: 562
Thanked 1,047 Times in 719 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant View Post
1) We have free will. While pain may be mandatory, suffering is optional. It is a choice we make out of fear, ignorance, and the mistaken idea that we are our bodies. We--even you, a beloved Son of God-- are spiritual critters. These meat machines that we all ride aorund in for the time being are mere conveniences.

2) Many spiritual traditions maintain that the world we see is an illusion. I trust I need not list any of the many examples of them.( Btw, the world sure LOOKS flat--is it? It sure LOOKS like the sun goes around the earth? Does it? The table or desk in front of you LOOKS solid enough, but any physicist could tell you, it is mostly empty space.)

That said, I once read of an obscure sect of Tibetan Buddhists who maintain that the world of spirit is equally illusory.

I will concede that ACIM harps on that one string perhaps a tad too strongly--but then, I have not finished all 1200 or so pages of the book, and only about 135 of the 365 lessons. How about you? Or do you speak from ignorance?

I don't think free will exists at all. I think the very concept of free will presupposes a metaphysical god, and when it is defined without that assumption is ceases to make sense.

I don't think reading books is a credential for spiritual authority, but I have read dozens of authors on philosophy and psychology; ranging from Huxley to Nietzsche to Burroughs to Hyatt to RAW.

My point is that you emphasize pain as the driving motivation for your philosophy. You seem to be entirely concerned on suffering, and the fact that you expound the unity of individuals and the illusory quality of the world as primary seems to me to be a mirror of your values. I don't think you are incorrect, but the selection of these things as primary is entirely arbitrary, and will lead to nihilism in it's weakest form. I believe that pain is the other side of pleasure, and it is undesirable to deny either, except for people who have surrendered so much of their will that they prefer to have their actions dictated by fear rather than life affirmation.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:25 PM
constantinople's Avatar
constantinople constantinople is offline
Acolyte
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: saythankyoubitch
Thanks: 2,104
Thanked 1,866 Times in 1,418 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to constantinople Send a message via AIM to constantinople Send a message via MSN to constantinople Send a message via Yahoo to constantinople
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
ArmsMerchant: These meat machines that we all ride aorund in for the time being are mere conveniences.

So why'd you quit smoking? Why'd you quit drinking? Why stop hitting the pleasure button for any reason at all really? I mean if this is just a useless sack of mortal coil then...fuck it, right?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-17-2012, 04:48 PM
Obbe's Avatar
Obbe Obbe is offline
A Light Shining in Darkness
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Now
Thanks: 954
Thanked 1,179 Times in 866 Posts
Grin Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustedDr.Watson View Post
So why'd you quit smoking? Why'd you quit drinking? Why stop hitting the pleasure button for any reason at all really? I mean if this is just a useless sack of mortal coil then...fuck it, right?
It is good to ask these questions, because he probably has an answer.
__________________
All of the true things I am about to tell you are shameless lies.
&T
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-17-2012, 05:59 PM
benny vader's Avatar
benny vader benny vader is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Męth Island
Thanks: 115
Thanked 478 Times in 340 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustedDr.Watson View Post
So why'd you quit smoking? Why'd you quit drinking? Why stop hitting the pleasure button for any reason at all really? I mean if this is just a useless sack of mortal coil then...fuck it, right?
I think its the same reason people who can't afford more than one car take good care of their car ;

so that you can go around longer with it.

He has after all, traveled really phar and really phast down the road with his body ......
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
ArmsMerchant (03-17-2012)
  #18  
Old 03-17-2012, 06:04 PM
L33tz's Avatar
L33tz L33tz is offline
Duke
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth (Realm of Man)
Thanks: 496
Thanked 642 Times in 440 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

دنيوي
__________________
Act that your principle of action might safely be made a law for the whole world.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-17-2012, 07:57 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustedDr.Watson View Post
So why'd you quit smoking? Why'd you quit drinking? Why stop hitting the pleasure button for any reason at all really? I mean if this is just a useless sack of mortal coil then...fuck it, right?
Cancer runs in my family--my dad and grand-dad got it; both were heavy smokers. Anyone who uses tobacco stinks now (really, you tend to smell like an ashtray), and gets sick later. While not everyone gets cancer , they always experience significant bodily harm at some point.

I quit drinking because my alcoholism has progressed to the point that my options were two: stop drinking, or die.

I chose life.

About that "useless sack"--it is far from useless, being the vehicle with which we manifest on this plane, and does deserve reasonable attention and care.

But to obsess over it is a form of idolatry.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM

Last edited by ArmsMerchant; 03-17-2012 at 07:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-17-2012, 08:54 PM
constantinople's Avatar
constantinople constantinople is offline
Acolyte
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: saythankyoubitch
Thanks: 2,104
Thanked 1,866 Times in 1,418 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to constantinople Send a message via AIM to constantinople Send a message via MSN to constantinople Send a message via Yahoo to constantinople
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant View Post
Cancer runs in my family--my dad and grand-dad got it; both were heavy smokers. Anyone who uses tobacco stinks now (really, you tend to smell like an ashtray), and gets sick later. While not everyone gets cancer , they always experience significant bodily harm at some point.

I quit drinking because my alcoholism has progressed to the point that my options were two: stop drinking, or die.

I chose life.

About that "useless sack"--it is far from useless, being the vehicle with which we manifest on this plane, and does deserve reasonable attention and care.

But to obsess over it is a form of idolatry.

Don't you believe in reincarnation?

You still don't get what I'm saying. If you think you've enlightened yourself to the point that you dissociate your "self" from your body, then why would you have any sort of attachment to this husk? It's disposable.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-18-2012, 07:09 AM
Obbe's Avatar
Obbe Obbe is offline
A Light Shining in Darkness
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Now
Thanks: 954
Thanked 1,179 Times in 866 Posts
Grin Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

ArmsMerchant is his body, and is simultaneously more than that. He has been rough on his body in the past, but has now reached a point in his life where he values things which he didn't when he was younger. He says that he feels his body deserves care. He probably enjoys the life he lives and the people that are in it, and I don't see anything wrong with having a desire to keep going. Nor do I see anything unreasonable about simultaneously feeling that he is more than his body and his ego. Because he really is. There is something greater and you are a part of it too.
__________________
All of the true things I am about to tell you are shameless lies.
&T
Reply With Quote
The following users say "It is so good to hear it!":
ArmsMerchant (03-30-2012)
  #22  
Old 03-20-2012, 06:48 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustedDr.Watson View Post
Don't you believe in reincarnation?

You still don't get what I'm saying. If you think you've enlightened yourself to the point that you dissociate your "self" from your body, then why would you have any sort of attachment to this husk? It's disposable.

Yes, I have recalled many past lives--same soul, different bodies.

The body deserves much the same care as does one's car, and for much the same reasons.

To get obsessive about body adornment, modification, six-pack abs and such borders on idolatry, not that there is anything wrong with that. Itjust hinders spiritual growth and promotes the myth of separatism.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-21-2012, 05:08 PM
benny vader's Avatar
benny vader benny vader is offline
Count
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Męth Island
Thanks: 115
Thanked 478 Times in 340 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmsMerchant View Post
.....Itjust hinders spiritual growth and promotes the myth of separatism.
Yea .... like how a carr with with 22inch wheels, "racing" suspensions and full body kit + diffusers couldnt go over a bump, over a kerb or a little off-road

like a rusty truck can. This fox of gray is a very wise fox indeed.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-21-2012, 06:25 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

^Good point. Reminds me of the time I asked my sweety, who rode with the Bay Area Hells Angels in the 60s, what advantage those extended front forks on some choppers had. She told me "nothing--they made the ride more unstable, just looked cool".
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-28-2012, 07:25 PM
mizled's Avatar
mizled mizled is offline
Badministrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: overlooking the lunatic fringe
Thanks: 2,373
Thanked 2,676 Times in 1,692 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

I agree with the sentiment, unfortunately I'm one of the ones paying the bills.
__________________
--

--
Self loathing is the fate of all great iconoclasts.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-30-2012, 06:59 PM
ArmsMerchant ArmsMerchant is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Alaska
Thanks: 2,730
Thanked 2,897 Times in 1,766 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizled View Post
I agree with the sentiment, unfortunately I'm one of the ones paying the bills.
Dearly beloved, we all pay bills. I recently got done paying off the cost of the ambulance ride that took my sweety to the ER a few years ago, and have to come up with a minimum of $400/month for the credit card I use.

None of this is important to me, or relevant to the thread. At the risk of sounding all New Agey and shit, I live in the Flow--I do my best, and the Universe provides all I require. The fact that I am alive attests to the validity of this concept.

Point is, there is nothing material that I want. I have enough food (thanks to food stamps), my 22-year old car runs fine,the clothes I get free from the Community Closet or the dumpster are adequate, and so on. In the past, I was rich, had all sorts of toys, travelled a lot-- and I once calculated that I spent enough money on alcohol to put a kid through college. I had a closet ful of designer suits and Broorks Brothers shirts, rubbed elbows with governors and cabinet members, once worked with the White House Press Office--all of which was bullshit, and none of which made me happy.

What makes me happy now is manifesting love and forgiveness.

And despite the fact that I live with disability, poverty, and pretty much constant pain these days--and only worked five days this years, due to my accident in January--there is no one on the planet with whom I would wish to trade places.

None of which makes me in any way special, or superior. I am just a guy who was fortunate enough to have some good teachers, and I try to pass it along.
__________________
Condemn and you are made a prisoner. Forgive and you are freed. -- ACIM
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-30-2012, 11:00 PM
TheSexyBeast821's Avatar
TheSexyBeast821 TheSexyBeast821 is offline
C⊙λϥЖĦѮϟΩπ
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The longest location name on Z
Thanks: 134
Thanked 742 Times in 587 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Built To Last View Post
You're on the right track, but I think the better question is, "What are ideas?". Asking where they come from is assuming that we already have a thorough understanding of what they are.

Think of how people answer the question, "Who are you?" Some might say their name, what they like to do, a personality trait they have, who their related to, etc. But notice that while all of these might be qualities of who you are, they are not what you are.

The mind works in the same way: thoughts are always focused on something external to our own consciousness. The mind never thinks the thought of itself. Any meditator worth his salt can tell you this. Sitting in meditation and observing his mind, he finds the mind frantically jumping from memory, to emotion, to idea, to sense perception: "I wish that jackhammer would stop outside", "I really need to call my mother", "I should have talked to that cute brunette", "My life is a failure", "I'm such a keen meditator, I'll surely reach nirvana."

Of course, this will not work for those who think, "I am my consciousness".



Exactly, its the blind leading the blind. No ideas can save you. You can't "try" to reach enlightenment, if enlightenment is a state of extinguished desire.
My mind seems to be perpetually thinking the thought of itself, unless I've created consciousness (or it's always been there) external to "my" consciousness which I am observing. Either way, the mind most definitely has the ability to think about the mind, but I'm sure the results of such thinking could cause vastly different effects for people.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-31-2012, 07:34 PM
i poop in your cereal's Avatar
i poop in your cereal i poop in your cereal is offline
Archduke
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Noddington
Thanks: 370
Thanked 700 Times in 485 Posts
Default Re: the world you see holds nothing. . . .

Your logic is so fragmented and your arguments so subjective that you'd fail an 8th grade essay assignment.

inb4 rant about "institutions"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
holds, world

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rand Paul placed holds on 3 drug bills I Kill Null Airtime Better Living Through Chemistry 7 02-23-2012 06:00 PM
fucking eBay holds... flmac Bad Ideas 2 04-14-2011 05:07 PM
*Holds up Ashleys skirt for Dr. Bint* Craigslist.org Bat Country 8 07-02-2009 02:25 AM
What holds China back? BigSteamers The Inhumane Condition 2 03-06-2009 11:19 PM
God holds nothing good back Clover Bat Country 4 02-17-2009 10:03 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:55 AM.


Hot Topics
Join our Chatroom!
Users: 8
Messages/minute: 0
Topic: "Only rule: be nice or I'll cut your fucking face off, dumbshit"
Users: 27
Messages/minute: 1.6
Topic: "http://codelove.org :: Below is above in 2 codes 1 love. :: wh..."
Users: 18
Messages/minute: 5
Topic: "http://www.literotica...."
Advertisements
Your ad could go right HERE! Contact us!

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.