Afghanistan war argument

[Tachosomoza]

Dozens of Afghans die every day, one US guy isn't that special. Shame, though.

[L33tz]

Originally Posted by p6867

Are you 12?

There is merit to what he said.

[Tachosomoza]

Originally Posted by p6867

Are you 12?

Far from it. I'm just not caught up by a single death from the US when 20, 30 Afghan women and children die over there every day simply because they're caught in the crossfire of the US occupiers and reactionary Taliban. It's the bias that pisses me off, we put more value on an American life than we do on 100 Afghan lives. It's sick.

[Tachosomoza]

Originally Posted by reject

"We killed a lot more of them than they did of us, that will have to do. No one made us join." Lern2reed.

And stop trolling in a serious thread.

I'm not trolling. Killed a lot more of them is true, but you also got a lot of women and children killed, both there and in Iraq, where we shouldn't have been in the first place. You've got the neocon thieves and neocolonialists to thank for these American deaths, not the Iraqis and Afghans.

[reject]

No I'm pretty sure it was an Afghan who pulled the trigger, not a neocon thief or neocolonialists.

[Tachosomoza]

Originally Posted by reject

No I'm pretty sure it was an Afghan who pulled the trigger, not a neocon thief or neocolonialists.

Whose war was it?

[reject]

If the Taliban didn't suppress women and fund terrorist organisations who specifically target innocent civilians, I'm pretty sure it's theirs.

At least we don't intentionally kill innocents, they do.

But hey, the killing of innocent white people is a-ok, amirite?

[Morb]

Originally Posted by TORTILLA

useless wars will do that

sry to hear that

Just wait until everyone leaves before the country is more stabilized, and it turns into a terrorist training ground again, and another terrorist attack originates that kills thousands or millions because of it, and we find ourselves having to go back in again.

Head-in-the-sand stances will do that.

[Tachosomoza]

Originally Posted by Morb

Just wait until everyone leaves before the country is more stabilized, and it turns into a terrorist training ground again, and another terrorist attack originates that kills thousands or millions because of it, and we find ourselves having to go back in again.

Head-in-the-sand stances will do that.

Who's the terrorists? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[L33tz]

Originally Posted by reject

If the Taliban didn't suppress women and fund terrorist organisations who specifically target innocent civilians, I'm pretty sure it's theirs.

At least we don't intentionally kill innocents, they do.

But hey, the killing of innocent white people is a-ok, amirite?

nigga please.

The taliban were minding their own buisness, till the US came and fucked it up.

The women have it better there, they don't have to worry about anything.

[IIIII]

Originally Posted by The Pat-Man

At least he died in combat.

Oxymoron!

[Morb]

Originally Posted by L33tz

nigga please.

The taliban were minding their own buisness, till the US came and fucked it up.

The women have it better there, they don't have to worry about anything.

Yeah, good point. Under the Taliban, women don't have to worry about speaking unless spoken to, having opinions, listening to music, having access to any kind of real health care or education, not being beaten if they accidentally show an ankle while outside, or being considered more valuable and having more rights than cattle... they must not even know what stress is.

In fact, I don't think they're allowed to even worry about anything even if there was something to worry about, which there isn't, not with such nice chaps like the Taliban. I never thought of it that way, I can't imagine why anyone would want to go and bother those lovely people and fuck up their peaceful utopia.

Unlike Taliban women,

[p6867]

Alright you, if you want to argue about afghanistan let's do it here. I'm moving all the posts from my losing touch with people, friend died thread over here.

[reject]

Good thinking, sorry for arguing in that thread.

[p6867]

I do that shit all the time too, whatever. Trying to not argue on zoklet is like trying to hold back the tide. I just figure this way we can have a place for it.

[p6867]

My opinion on the Iraq and afghanistan war now that i'm an adult and not some blood crazed teenager looking to jump out of planes and shoot other blood crazed teenagers has always boiled down to whether or not we had any reason to be there in the first place, we killed all the people who were running these countries. If we leave now, they have no military. Taliban sympathizers in the united states don't understand what those people will do to the people who live there.
I have literally seen them suicide bomb schools that teach girls for the crime of teaching girls. They set young women on fire for having premarital sex. They crush homosexuals to death. Tacho, you made a comment about me being homophobic for calling you a cocksucker, i was just using the word as a generic insult, i have no beef with the gays. The Taliban you're talking about literally erect a wall of stone and push it over onto gay people until they die.

I think it is incredibly immoral to leave a population in their hands. I don't think it's right to send our men and women to die for it, or US taxpayers to foot the bill for it when so many people in positions of power are making incredible money off of it. My old employers at the PMC I worked for billionaires off this war. The situation is far from perfect, but bros on the ground have the day to day job of trying to make sure no one saws the heads off of teenage girls for the crime going to school, which is a worthwhile job.

[Tachosomoza]

I never said that the Taliban was a progressive institution.

[yawanur]

It's easy to hate on dudes with guns, but they're just doing their job. Sucks when they die. Sucks when afghanis die. Afghani deaths are an afterthought in our media; doesn't mean we shouldn't remember fallen brothers.

It blows my mind how conservatives with their "moral high ground" were the first to support bombing the fuck out of an entire country because the news told them brown people did it, while the largest running theme jesus reiterated in his teachings was to forgive thy enemy.

Then to think the USA invaded Afghanistan and Iraq while 15 of the 19 supposed hijackers were Saudi's.

om nom nom middle eastern oil

[Tachosomoza]

Just a bunch of hypocrites. Saudi Arabia is a richer version of the Taliban, but we've been pals with them forever. Hell, we supported the same people we're fighting as we speak 30 years ago when they were fighting the Soviets. Now, they're killing troops with weapons courtesy of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.

[Painzstake]

Originally Posted by Tachosomoza

Just a bunch of hypocrites. Saudi Arabia is a richer version of the Taliban, but we've been pals with them forever. Hell, we supported the same people we're fighting as we speak 30 years ago when they were fighting the Soviets. Now, they're killing troops with weapons courtesy of Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.

Please get your facts straight Saudi Arabia is arguably the reason as to why the Taliban turned on the US. The sheiks accepted Americas offer over the 'holy fighters' (aka the Taliban) and they saw this as an insult. Hence 9/11 and so on.

As for the conditions of Afghanistan under the Taliban, if any of you so wish to educate yourself. Go ahead and watch this doco

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 1 of 5) - YouTube

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 1 of 5) - YouTube
Video: click to display

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 2 of 5) - YouTube

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 2 of 5) - YouTube
Video: click to display

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 3 of 5) - YouTube

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 3 of 5) - YouTube
Video: click to display

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 4 of 5) - YouTube

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 4 of 5) - YouTube
Video: click to display

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 5 of 5) - YouTube

Beneath The Veil - Women In Islam(Part 5 of 5) - YouTube
Video: click to display

Ignorance is bliss...

[Sir Cornwell]

So: America was right to refuse the Taliban's offer to hand over Bin Laden and close terrorist training camps?

Real armed forces need real combat and any excuse for combat should not be combated.

[TORTILLA]

Nation building in afghanistan would have been one thing if we had never invaded Iraq. The nation is war weary and tired, its evident with recent incidents. We fucked up, the empire is on decline, its time to consolidate and salvage what we got left. Unfortunately its sad to say this country is turning out to be more like the ottomans every day. kiss it goodbye

need the young turk movement in american equivalent; Ron Paul

[Rolf]

Originally Posted by TORTILLA

need the young turk movement in american equivalent

Forced marches for ethnic minorities! proclaims Rolf.

[The Pat-Man]

i say we let turkey take the reins and make the EU admit them as a bonus.

[Rolf]

Originally Posted by The Pat-Man

i say we let turkey take the reins and make the EU admit them as a bonus.

Non Europeans in European Union? asks Rolf curiously.

[The Pat-Man]

they let poland in, i mean might as well.

[tuer502gt]

Originally Posted by Tachosomoza

Far from it. I'm just not caught up by a single death from the US when 20, 30 Afghan women and children die over there every day simply because they're caught in the crossfire of the US occupiers and reactionary Taliban. It's the bias that pisses me off, we put more value on an American life than we do on 100 Afghan lives. It's sick.

The US and assorted allies are there trying to protect women and children from the Taliban and AQ factions, who have a policy, much like the Vietcong did, of inflicting casualties upon innocent civilians for psychological effect.

[Malcolm Equis]

Originally Posted by tuer502gt

The US and assorted allies are there trying to protect women and children from the Taliban and AQ factions, who have a policy, much like the Vietcong did, of inflicting casualties upon innocent civilians for psychological effect.

No it's all just politics and $$$. Nobody cares about those people.

[tuer502gt]

If it was purely politics and money, there would be no USA and the west would have lost the Cold War. Sociopaths cannot run massive empires.

There are those with feelings for sure.

[Sir Cornwell]

Arguing for or against a foreign policy based on whatever BS politicians spout to cover their real actions is just as useful as having a knife fight over a baseball game.

[tuer502gt]

Well where's the money in Afghanistan? What are the politics?

It happened because 1. Afghanistan declared war in the early 90's against America, and, 2. Because Al-Qaeda had Afghanistan as a strong hold following the 9/11 tragedy where the Taliban were sheltering them.

[Sir Cornwell]

Originally Posted by tuer502gt

Well where's the money in Afghanistan? What are the politics?

It happened because 1. Afghanistan declared war in the early 90's against America, and, 2. Because Al-Qaeda had Afghanistan as a strong hold following the 9/11 tragedy where the Taliban were sheltering them.

Bin Laden didn't matter and the US was just BS-ing about wanting him while they were preparing to attack Afghanistan/Taliban? That the recent raid that "killed" him was just for PR purposes?

Does your brain have the circuits to process these questions? I wonder: very few people will even acknowledge that these are legitimate questions. Ignorance? Fear?

I wonder. Do you think that the US Congress should make it illegal for US citizens to ask these questions?

[tuer502gt]

They are legitimate questions.

He had to die regardless, it was not PR. He is a symbolic figurehead if nothing more. His death was required (that is if you want to go down the social engineering/conspiracy path).

I would prefer he was alive and having information extracted from him as we sit here. But unfortunately he isn't.

And it happened for the reasons I already established.

[Sir Cornwell]

Originally Posted by tuer502gt

They are legitimate questions.

He had to die regardless, it was not PR. He is a symbolic figurehead if nothing more. His death was required (that is if you want to go down the social engineering/conspiracy path).

I would prefer he was alive and having information extracted from him as we sit here. But unfortunately he isn't.

And it happened for the reasons I already established.

You would agree then: the US was right not to accept his surrender by the Taliban as then Congress and US citizens might have not been as horny for war?

That President Clinton was right not to go after him and Pres. Bush2 the same? They needed him as a Scary Bogeyman to enable war support, even if it meant 9/11? You are glad to be manipulated that way and would agree that you should be manipulated that way today and in future?

[tuer502gt]

Originally Posted by Sir Cornwell

You would agree then: the US was right not to accept his surrender by the Taliban as then Congress and US citizens might have not been as horny for war?

That President Clinton was right not to go after him and Pres. Bush2 the same? They needed him as a Scary Bogeyman to enable war support, even if it meant 9/11?

Taleban external security agencies had made attacks and attempted attacks on the US mainland in the past. The Taliban declared war on the USA around the same time.

It would have been unbelievably expensive to go after them at the time, and a logistical nightmare and not a safe idea as the wall had just gone down and alert was still on high. And for something like that you cannot justify to the people sending the whole army to war, one the Soviets just lost, because people like you would say the war was senseless and going after innocent terrorists and was only being done because the president wanted to prove to the world America is better than the Soviet Union (which it is) in a dick measuring contest.

With the massive loss of civilian life, this time they knew they could get them without public backlash.

The Taleban wouldn't give Bin Laden so freely, they were at war with the USA for years before the invasion.

I don't know why we are arguing?

Also, I believe citizens should have the right to oppose government policy. That is what democracy is like, and why China and Russia are such shitholes. Not to mention Cuba and Venezuela.

[Sir Cornwell]

You don't seem to be answering the questions.

Why not just give a yes or no? Why must you dance like a gay dancer in a Broadway show?

Would you say that 9/11 was worth it because of it's immense PR value for US policy?

That the US was right to refuse the the Taliban's offer?

[tuer502gt]

I answered your questions.

And it is OK to be gay according to military policy. If my behavior is interpreted as being homosexual, it is still acceptable in context.

[Sir Cornwell]

Originally Posted by tuer502gt

I answered your questions.

And it is OK to be gay according to military policy. If my behavior is interpreted as being homosexual, it is still acceptable in context.

You're closer.

If you'd had to be in the Twin Towers on 9/11 and could give no excuse not to be there. No excuse at all. Even if privy to the knowledge of the attack.

You believe your death and appreciate that all the deaths were worth it in the larger picture. You would have been all, "Sir, yes, sir!" about maintaining secrecy and going to a gloriful, heroic death?

[tuer502gt]

If it was a deliberate act to kill that many people, it would leak hard, and there would be a revolution, literally, involving intelligence agencies and the military.

It was not organised by the government.

I would not think it would be worth it. It would have been preferable for it to never have happened.

The towers getting attacked was a cause to celebrate amongst terrorists and something that motivated them.

Those deaths do not make me think the situation we have now is worth it.

[Sir Cornwell]

Originally Posted by tuer502gt

If it was a deliberate act to kill that many people, it would leak hard, and there would be a revolution, literally, involving intelligence agencies and the military.

It was not organised by the government.

I would not think it would be worth it. It would have been preferable for it to never have happened.

The towers getting attacked was a cause to celebrate amongst terrorists and something that motivated them.

Those deaths do not make me think the situation we have now is worth it.

I don't get it. You think that Clinton was right not to go after Bin Laden, that the US was right not to accept his surrender from the Taliban and that Bush2 was right not to pursue him.

Who said it was organized by the US? That doesn't mean they didn't do as above and allow shit to happen for propaganda reasons. I thought you answered above that Bin Laden was very useful to be left on the loose?