How do people justify a belief in any deity?

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

Wouldn't you like to be the one to answer the greatest theological and philosophical question in human history?

Again, why are you hamstringing theology and philosophy with greed? I'd rather have the knowledge than the credit.

[crazzyass]

Originally Posted by zanick

Lots of reasons. Either they've thought about it, or they have not. Disregarding those who have not contemplated their faith, we should assume those who have also find good reason to believe. Let's assume they're educated. They know what they're talking about and won't make silly, incredibly fallacious arguments.

Maybe it's the sense of community involved with the religious practice and this keeps them going to churgh. It could be a matter of preserving one's social status. Neither of these address the belief in a deity, however.

Maybe they've experienced a personal gnosis which demands their unwavering faith. Then there is a belief that humanity requires a moral compass, a nature which is derived from a divine source that determines the orientations of right and wrong, and how we should behave according to this standard.

I've debated with guys who have doctorates in theology and are supposed to be experts in this stuff. They demonstrate ignorance of basic science and commit huge logic fallacies. Religious schools aren't exactly unbiased.

All of the scientists I've met that are religious view the Bible as a moral work but don't really accept the supernatural parts. My high school chemistry teacher worked a lot in his church, was a deacon, but would fume when kids were like "lol the Bible says the Earth was created in six days". He understood evolution as well. I can respect that. Hell, I respect much of Jesus' teachings. The shitty parts of the Bible are from Middle Eastern cavemen.

[nshanin]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

No, if you were to provide a single shred of proof for God, I, for one, would jump right back to theism.

Originally Posted by crazzyass

After reviewing the evidence, there is too much ambiguity about the shroud for a religious conclusion to be drawn. Thousands of people were crucified. Seeing Jesus in that is seeing what you want to see.
__________________________________________________ _
My intentions are to review all the evidence and make a conclusion based upon that. To date, all evidence supports atheism. Every theist I ask for evidence declines to do so.

Please review the evidence presented, one of the most sacred texts of the ancient Indian cultures.

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/index-english.html

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by nshanin

Please review the evidence presented, one of the most sacred texts of the ancient Indian cultures.

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/index-english.html

The Bhagavad Gita is like a thousand page text. Care to actually point to something, or do you think people are actually dumb enough to give up because they don't want to read a long boring (and undoubtedly poorly translated) tome?

[crazzyass]

Originally Posted by Lanny

The Bhagavad Gita is like a thousand page text. Care to actually point to something, or do you think people are actually dumb enough to give up because they don't want to read a long boring (and undoubtedly poorly translated) tome?

Or better yet, present it to someone who has read it before.

There's no evidence, it just has lots of interesting stories to meditate on. Like every philosophical work ever written, really.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

Again, why are you hamstringing theology and philosophy with greed? I'd rather have the knowledge than the credit.

"Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." John 3:5


To my knowledge I don't have the ability to baptize you with the Holy Spirit and give you revelation. Ask Jesus.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

"Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." John 3:5


To my knowledge I don't have the ability to baptize you with the Holy Spirit and give you revelation. Ask Jesus.

I thought the one true god had many names, like Allah and Jesus and Krishna. All their doctrines are separate, though. Why're you doubling back on your word?

[Ambient]

Originally Posted by Lanny

The Bhagavad Gita is like a thousand page text. Care to actually point to something, or do you think people are actually dumb enough to give up because they don't want to read a long boring (and undoubtedly poorly translated) tome?

It's actually not that long if you forgo the commentaries. It's also quite exciting at times.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

I thought the one true god had many names, like Allah and Jesus and Krishna. All their doctrines are separate, though. Why're you doubling back on your word?

Be born of the Spirit and you're perspective on the doctrines being separate will change.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

Be born of the Spirit and you're perspective on the doctrines being separate will change.

What? I have to be BORN a certain way to receive proof? Isn't god the one who PUT me here? tl;dr, you're full of shit.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

What? I have to be BORN a certain way to receive proof? Isn't god the one who PUT me here? tl;dr, you're full of shit.

You've been born of water (natural birth) the same as everyone else on the planet. Now you need to be born of the Spirit in glorious revelation. Ask Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or God the Father, and maybe they'll get around to giving you your second birth.

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

You've been born of water (natural birth) the same as everyone else on the planet. Now you need to be born of the Spirit in glorious revelation. Ask Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or God the Father, and if you do start believing in god, then it worked, but if you don't then it just isn't divine will and no evidence will ever be provided.

Yup, good answer buddy.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Lanny

Yup, good answer buddy.

Time is the only variable.

[Nachismo]

Someone's belief in deity is a very personal thing, shaped by their spiritual experiences and the systems they follow.Other posts in this thread have already mentioned the power of belief as a tool for different ends, but most religions were originally meant to bind someone back to divinity,to unite them with their higher virtues or the God within.Looking at these systems superficially, their rituals, creeds, and scriptures just skims the the surface of traditions that have long bared fruitful results for those who sincerely use them as tools for self exploration.There is more to it, but without dedicating oneself heart, mind and soul to understanding yourself using these tools, the results form a shadow of what the underlying teachings are pointing to.

The scriptures of different faiths record philosophically different experiences messengers have gone through while trying to make sense of it all, and unfortunately politics and religion have been intertwined so intimately, that often the messages are debased by those missing the mark while practicing aligning themselves with particular beliefs or succumbing to dogma.That's a shame, because it casts doubt for others exploring similar territory.Anyways you get out what you put in, and you can't take what you received with you, only what you have given.

Researching spirituality, and religion is the most personal of experiences and just delving into the history and how others have used it passes over a very fractal way of describing life.If this is an area of interest for someone, the underlying psychology of the mechanics involved can go a long way to understanding the scriptures and what those who have come before us.The ideas of Jung are particular helpful, as well as hypnosis, and different forms of self development that compliment one's spiritual yearnings.Martial arts, yoga, and the Arts come to mind.

Personally, the scriptures point to ideas that stem from man's unconscious and collective unconscious as a whole.The gods are often forms that archetypes take on as one encounters different energies involved in life.The tarot pictorially illustrates a journey through life, with symbolism meant to evoke illumination on different levels.As a Monotheist, I believe in one God, the Most High.They raised me Catholic, though I have lost my faith before and it was a long dark night indeed.People need to question their beliefs and own them personally even if there appears to be conflicts with the system they are using.I think this stage is essential for people to practice learning to look at life in the unbiased way that will ultimately deliver them to the understanding that will liberate their spirit.Religion was meant for man, not the other way around.Who wants anybody else to act out of sense of duty and forgo their hearts in the process?

That being said, without sincerely questioning one's belief, one may never look around at different religions or beliefs enough to learn to see the similarities that underlie different philosophies and realize the common heritage that belongs to man.There is a God, and that God personifies the virtue of everything good, if man feels otherwise it is through lack of understanding and nothing else.

Arms made a thread before, on the faces of God.It's a useful way to describe the way someone's idea of God changes in their lives as they grow more spiritually mature.Ultimately the face of God is only limited by your own belief and how can a static image grow or take a life of it's own?I believe in The Most High, Infinite, or that God is both imminent and transcendent.The idea manifests as a sort of fuzzy logic manifesting through all things using principles that pattern reality, similar to the way a kaleidoscope creates patterns of light or how lasers create holographs using duality.

As archetypes, the gods people have described throughout history appear in different places and context depending on the messenger.Some examples of this are Christ, the demiurge, Hermes, Mars, Sophia, The Muses, the saints and more then I can list.These characters appear in places usually with similar qualities depending on the filters of the culture they appear.Often the demons of one culture were the gods on the one's they conquered adding to the confusion man often finds himself in. The different perspectives can be startling in particular, the contrast between different forms of Gnosticism and Pauline Christianity.Anyways I brought it up because learning to recognize the archetypes in scripture is an important to realizing how they function in our own lives, and it shows that these ideas have a life of their own regardless of how man chooses to view them.

I've encountered the archetypes at play in my own life, and they have been a most productive tool for gaining an understanding of some very abstract ideas.The mode these revelations take often contain a novelty that I can't imagine, seeing as they stem from the subconscious.I believe in one God, with infinite qualities.I see it in all things and believe that the separation man places between deities directly relates to their own consciousness and place on the path.Humans are partly physical and partly divine.Religion attempts to tame the beast while growing the light from within.The metaphor extends towards man evolving their consciousness beyond the material and into the heavens.

[nshanin]

Originally Posted by Lanny

The Bhagavad Gita is like a thousand page text. Care to actually point to something, or do you think people are actually dumb enough to give up because they don't want to read a long boring (and undoubtedly poorly translated) tome?

Yes, I actually think people are that stupid (and you do not?). Here's another cookie though:

sanskrit most scientific language by Dean brown 2 - YouTube

sanskrit most scientific language by Dean brown 2 - YouTube
Video: click to display

And a lazy man's abridged version:
http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughe...agavadgita.htm

For example in teaching 13 Lord Krishna is describing his theology and epistemology as God:

1: Arjuna said: I have heard of underlying form of matter called Prakriti, of the cosmic spirit called Purusha, and of the holy field called Kshetra, I wish to learn of these, O Krishna."
The Blessed Lord said: "This body is a holy field, a Kshetra, and he who knows it is called the Kshetrajna. Know that I am the creator of all creation, O Arjuna, the knower of all fields.
3: What the Kshetra is, hear from Me. It is the five great elements, it is the I-sense, it is the intellect, it is the Prakti of unformed matter, it is the ten organs of the body along and the mind as an eleventh, it is the five objects of the senses, it is the desire, and the will - such is Kshetra. With hands and feet everywhere, with eyes, head, and face everywhere; having ears everywhere, the creator exists in the creation by pervading everything. The light of all lights, He is the knowledge, the object of knowledge, and sits in the hearts of all beings. Such is Kshetra.
19. Know both Prakriti and Purusha are truly beginningless and eternal. Know that all things you know and see are sprung from Prakriti. Prakriti is the cause of the body and of the senses, while it is Purusha that experiences, joy and sorrow. Whoever understands Purusha and Prakriti will be released from the cycle of rebirth, no matter what be his mode of living.
24. There are some who seek to perceive the Atma within themselves through the Jnana-Yoga of pure-minded meditation, others who approach it through the discipline of knowledge or work called Karma-Yoga. Some do not understand Brahman, but having heard of it from others, take to worship. They too transcend death by their firm faith. They who understand the difference between the body of creation and the Atma of the creator and know the technique of liberation, attain the Supreme.
THUS ENDS THE YOGA 'THE KNOWER AND THE KNOWN'

There is no doubt to the poor translation I have provided you in your mind only, in such situations you are kindly advised that 'tis:
'Better to remain silent than to speak and erase all doubt"--Mark Twain

[Zombie Food]

Honestly, the more I think about it. The more organized religion seems like a problem rather than anything else. No problem against the moral aspects of it, but look at it this way.

We have billions of people that believe in some sort of deity that we have no solid proof of. This in turn leads to more baseless beliefs. We can't run a world like this.

How the hell have we gotten this far without killing eachother into extinction?

[Captain Falcon]

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by nshanin

word salad

What?

[Rolf]

Why people have to justify their belief in fictional elder gods? this is what Rolf wonders.

[Zombie Food]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

I'm honestly not one to be against religion. I am open and generally tolerant of others beliefs as long as they are not aggressively forced.

Bit it looks like religion is just... unprogressive and causes more problems than it helps solve.

Not to blanket all religions, but the'mainstream' ones I guess.

Idk tho, I really dont want to believe this. But it just seems to be a pain in the ass most of the time.

[nshanin]

Originally Posted by Lanny

What?

Oh so your bias is with the Gita itself? I see where this is going... Go do your homework, kid.

http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughe...agavadgita.htm

sanskrit most scientific language by Dean brown 2 - YouTube

sanskrit most scientific language by Dean brown 2 - YouTube
Video: click to display

Originally Posted by Mai'q the liar

I'm honestly not one to be against religion. I am open and generally tolerant of others beliefs as long as they are not aggressively forced.

Bit it looks like religion is just... unprogressive and causes more problems than it helps solve.

Not to blanket all religions, but the'mainstream' ones I guess.

Idk tho, I really dont want to believe this. But it just seems to be a pain in the ass most of the time.

You will usually have to read or speak to a friend to learn something.

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by nshanin

Oh so your bias is with the Gita itself? I see where this is going... Go do your homework, kid.

http://www.btinternet.com/~glynhughe...agavadgita.htm

sanskrit most scientific language by Dean brown 2 - YouTube

My bias it towards things that make some kind of sense. Your post didn't.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by Mai'q the liar

I'm honestly not one to be against religion. I am open and generally tolerant of others beliefs as long as they are not aggressively forced.

Bit it looks like religion is just... unprogressive and causes more problems than it helps solve.

Not to blanket all religions, but the'mainstream' ones I guess.

Idk tho, I really dont want to believe this. But it just seems to be a pain in the ass most of the time.

My issue with religion is that it divides people for the sake of something unprovable and probably non-existent. People spend their whole lives at odds with one another, dying for and living by the word of something that isn't real for a rewarding afterlife that will never arrive. I hate religion because it turns good people against each other. Anything that encourages you to close your eyes and hope things go well is a bad thing and should be actively discouraged, no matter what.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

My issue with religion is that it divides people for the sake of something unprovable and probably non-existent. People spend their whole lives at odds with one another, dying for and living by the word of something that isn't real for a rewarding afterlife that will never arrive. I hate religion because it turns good people against each other. Anything that encourages you to close your eyes and hope things go well is a bad thing and should be actively discouraged, no matter what.

Islam is the only religion that teaches the exclusion of non-Muslims from neighborly love. One of the main tenets of Christianity is to love thy neighbor, regardless of their beliefs, and to also not judge people. Christians may seem intolerant in regards to homosexuals, but that is the fault of those Christians as they should be hating the sin but loving the sinner.

[rustyshackleford420]

Wow this is a long thread...

I think mostly fear, fear of uncertainty. Most normal rational people will became extremely irration when faced with their fears, whatever they may be.

This is why I find spirituality from within. I only believe what can be proven, but much falls out of the bounds (with current technology) to either prove or disprove. I don't think about that stuff for now (death etc.) I know that in the end all will be clear - or not.

All I'm saying is you - no not "you" - existed for 14 billion of our puny human years before "you" came into existance.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

Islam is the only religion that teaches the exclusion of non-Muslims from neighborly love. One of the main tenets of Christianity is to love thy neighbor, regardless of their beliefs, and to also not judge people. Christians may seem intolerant in regards to homosexuals, but that is the fault of those Christians as they should be hating the sin but loving the sinner.

A) You're full of shit, please read up on Muslim Sharia treatment of non-muslims under their rule (Jizya tax is necessarily lower than shariah tax, so non-muslims get a tax break, orders to not attack places of worship are in full effect, the Islamic welfare system was highly generous to non-muslims etc). I'd go ahead and say that as far as religions go, Islam isn't close to as shit as Judaism or Christianity. The culture in regions where Islam is prevalent, though, is pretty bad, which may or may not be a result of the religion itself.

B) Please go read the bible to see how full of crap you are

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purge from Israel. " - Deuteronomy 17:12

"Whoever sacrifices to any God, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed." - Exodus, 22:20

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with their hearts and souls; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." - 2 Chronicles 15:12

Your god is kind of a dick and you're misinformed and a fucking liar.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

A) You're full of shit, please read up on Muslim Sharia treatment of non-muslims under their rule (Jizya tax is necessarily lower than shariah tax, so non-muslims get a tax break, orders to not attack places of worship are in full effect, the Islamic welfare system was highly generous to non-muslims etc). I'd go ahead and say that as far as religions go, Islam isn't close to as shit as Judaism or Christianity. The culture in regions where Islam is prevalent, though, is pretty bad, which may or may not be a result of the religion itself.

B) Please go read the bible to see how full of crap you are

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purge from Israel. " - Deuteronomy 17:12

"Whoever sacrifices to any God, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed." - Exodus, 22:20

"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with their hearts and souls; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." - 2 Chronicles 15:12

Your god is kind of a dick and you're misinformed and a fucking liar.

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:35

The Quran limits loving thy neighbor to Muslims and excludes infidels.

You, being atheist, know nothing of the divine.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:35

So the Bible contradicts itself and isn't the word of god at all. Gotcha.

The Quran limits loving thy neighbor to Muslims and excludes infidels.

Nigger please, source your shit before spewing it.

You, being atheist, aren't deluding yourself into believing in the divine.

Fix't

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

So the Bible contradicts itself and isn't the word of god at all. Gotcha.

You know nothing.

Nigger please, source your shit before spewing it.

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
From my Quran: Surah 9 verse 123: "O you who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him."

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
From my Quran: Surah 48 verse 29: "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. [...]"

Fix't

You are deluded into thinking there is no higher power than your intellect.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

You know nothing.

Typical "No U" response.

Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."
From my Quran: Surah 9 verse 123: "O you who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him."

Out of context nigga, out of context, nigga. The non-believers referred specifically to the Quraish throughout most of the Quran, who the Muslims were at war with. Try again, nigga, try again, nigga

Verse 48:29 - "Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."
From my Quran: Surah 48 verse 29: "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. [...]"

Same as the above, a verse that was (muslims would say "revealed", I say "written") during war with the Quraish. Nigga, please. And I'm not defending Islam here, I'm calling you out on your bullshit defence of your own religion.

You are deluded into thinking there is no higher power than your intellect.

I don't believe there's a god that demands worship and acts like a jealous bitch, no. Maybe the spinozan concept of god, yeah, but belief in a deity is neither necessary nor beneficial. Fuck religion and fuck you.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

Typical "No U" response.



[url="http://quran.com/9/120-126"]Out of context nigga, out of context, nigga.[/URL The non-believers referred specifically to the Quraish throughout most of the Quran, who the Muslims were at war with. Try again, nigga, try again, nigga ;D



Same as the above, a verse that was (muslims would say "revealed", I say "written") during war with the Quraish. Nigga, please. And I'm not defending Islam here, I'm calling you out on your bullshit defence of your own religion.



I don't believe there's a god that demands worship and acts like a jealous bitch, no. Maybe the spinozan concept of god, yeah, but belief in a deity is neither necessary nor beneficial. Fuck religion and fuck you.

You're just full of angst and rebelling against authority. You'll grow out of this.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

You're just full of angst and rebelling against authority. You'll grow out of this.

Oh lol, more "no u" responses when you're proven full of shit. Just a pro-tip; almost nobody IRL knows I'm atheist, because it's not something one does to be "rebellious". It's not a label and it's not a group and I don't need to associate myself with anyone because of it. Religious people are perfectly capable of being reasonable, nice people, but that particular aspect of them i.e. religion, can only ever be a negative thing, never a positive.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

Oh lol, more "no u" responses when you're proven full of shit. Just a pro-tip; almost nobody IRL knows I'm atheist, because it's not something one does to be "rebellious". It's not a label and it's not a group and I don't need to associate myself with anyone because of it. Religious people are perfectly capable of being reasonable, nice people, but that particular aspect of them i.e. religion, can only ever be a negative thing, never a positive.

I'm pretty sure the radical love taught by Jesus can only be viewed as a negative thing if you worship hatred, chaos, and discord.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

I'm pretty sure the radical love taught by Jesus can only be viewed as a negative thing if you worship hatred, chaos, and discord.

Or you can be a good human being without actually needing "Jesus", who is ripped off from many other mythological by the way. Jesus was never real. There is no proof that he ever existed as anything but a story, and all the stories of and about him are stolen from the mythologies of other cultures.

[TheSexyBeast821]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

Or you can be a good human being without actually needing "Jesus", who is ripped off from many other mythological by the way. Jesus was never real. There is no proof that he ever existed as anything but a story, and all the stories of and about him are stolen from the mythologies of other cultures.

You have no idea what radical love even is, so stop pretending like you have equal merits in this conversation.

[Captain Falcon]

Originally Posted by TheSexyBeast821

You have no idea what radical love even is, so stop pretending like you have equal merits in this conversation.

Yeah, radical love, like killing dem non-believers.

[Rust]

Originally Posted by BetterLivingGuy

The only thing that makes me think that Jesus could have been in fact divine is the Shroud of Turin. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool scientist and I want proof of everything. Anyway, with all the technology today, no one has ever been able to reproduce anything that even comes close to the shroud. Yes, I am aware that like 25 years ago the Vatican allowed a team of scientists to examine it. 3 small samples of one corner were carbon dated. The results came back as 11th century AD indicating it could not possibly have been the shroud of Jesus. However, subsequent to the testing, a painting of the shroud was discovered in Hungary. The date of the painting precedes the carbon-14 results by some 150 years, proving the carbon dating was erroneous. It's also noteworthy that the painting showed the shroud being held up by the corners by people. This could explain the contamination.

First I was a believer, then an atheist, and now I'm not so sure. I guess until such time as the shroud is proven to be a hoax, I will continue to believe in the possibility that Jesus was divine. Does that answer your question?

You're mistaken. There is no painting depicting the shroud that would invalidate the radio-carbon dating performed. There are some paintings that people have claimed to depict the shroud, but all of those have been baseless allegations with no real evidence supporting them.

For example, they've tried to pass of paintings like these as if they depicted the shroud, even though there is no reference to the shroud in those paintings:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t1192-1195.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0thcentury.jpg


Their arguments are basically based on noticing some tiny similarities and ignoring huge differences.

[Proots]

Sorry, Kip - I can't answer your question any better than...well...anyone else in this thread has.

I leave people to their religion, though. I was personally raised as diehard Greek Orthodox - my whole family. Like, never missing church on Sunday or anything. But, once I was old enough to make decisions for myself (I think, early-mid teens), I decided I didn't want to go anymore and my parents and family were very respectful and understanding of my decision.

Although, on occasion, I will go to church - not because I believe or not - but, because it means a lot to my old Yiayia. She's like, 90 fucking years old, so doing anything with her grandchildren is kind of a big deal.

I guess I don't have anything to add, really. Just my own experiences. Call it a cop out, but I have no idea if there is or isn't a deity. I wouldn't feel comfortable betting anything on either answer.

[nshanin]

Originally Posted by Lanny

My bias it towards things that make some kind of sense. Your post didn't.

It did to a physicist/linguist academic and the Vedic people; why not you? Of course brahman means sense if by sense you mean the sanskrit devas ('senses'), which is the root for theos and deus in our greek and latin.

[nshanin]

Originally Posted by Captain Falcon

My issue with religion is that it divides people for the sake of something unprovable and probably non-existent. People spend their whole lives at odds with one another, dying for and living by the word of something that isn't real

You cannot say that something is both nonsensical (epistemologically illogical=unprovable) and that it is probably non-existent (i.e. phenomena that is reasonably disproven by the evidence). This futile line of reasoning must have escaped your intro to philosophy class somehow and I'm here to make sure you understand it's not actually acceptable.