USA vs Europe

[Ferlas child of mars]

I am very curious why an old gun such as de 1911 (Colt, Kimber etc.) still sells so good, when German of Austrian manufacturers produce high-tech weapons who are much more sophisticated than the 1911. Which is better? The old 1911 ????? or the Glock 17, H&K P7 Sig P226???


Opinions are welkom

[Snoopy]

If it ain't broke, don't fuck with it. The AK-47 has been around for a long time now and will be for many years to come, even though there are better and more modern AKs.

Cheap, it works, it kills.

Plus, like cars, some firearms have an epic status that will never go away. Especially in America. I mean, the European car industry basically rapes everything that comes out of the USA. Still, people will drive 30 year old Fords Mustangs and Dodge Chargers, even though they have to fill up the gas tank every 10 miles (slight dramatization). Why would they drive a car with an 8L engine when they could be driving a 3L 6 cylinder in-line BMW that is faster, better and about 1000% more fuel efficient? Because the old muscle cars have a legacy. Same goes for guns. Guns even more so. America was built with a Colt.

[Ferlas child of mars]

Most of the US police forces and military shoot nowadays with EU guns, looks like the US gouvernement does not care about legacies and stuff.

By the way I am european, and I am a 1911 owner, .45 rocks!!

[Afromonk]

Wish i could have a 1911.
But yes, as an above poster says, it just basically Occams Razor, the simplest solution is often the most effective.

[LavaRed]

Let me start by saying that I'm not a Glock hater; I've been after one for many years and will add this superb gun to my collection someday.
However:
An M1911 has about the same number of parts than a Glock, to begin with. Then, there is that little problem of the Polymer frame on a Glock. A guy doing reliability tests on a Glock fired at it with .22 LR and found that the gun's function was not affected, but he had to be careful to only hit the slide; no such reservations would be necessary with the steel framed 1911. And it would be as corrosion resistant as the Glock if you finished it in Tenifer, too.

I know that steel frame makes it way heavier, and that the magazine capacity is less, but that issue has been adressed in double stack 1911's and the same frame design can be made in different materials; thus, it becomes a non issue. A Glock frame could also be made from steel, I assume.

Both guns are similarly accurate; the old 1911, however, is safer than the Glock, having a manual safety in addition to the grip safety, the hammer, and the firing pin block for 70 series, or later, 1911's.

The thing about the 1911 design is that it can easily be kept current, while the Euro designs at large tend to be fixed in their time period. Also, most Euro guns, while being superb in engineering, tend to be slightly less reliable than American guns, maybe because people in Europe tended to live in a more urbanized environment, as opposed to the "wilder" environments to be found in America, and which have made reliability without maintenance a desireable feature.

I don't know if a Glock, or any Euro gun, can fire with some of its parts missing. I tried to fire my 1911 with the recoil guide rod, barrel link and pin removed, and it functioned. That tells you something about the design.

The only real improvement I could see with the 1911 design is the barrel bushing assembly. I'd rather have it be like in the Hi-Power, which is easier to field strip. However, for a full strip, I don't think any gun can compete with the 1911.

Its a 98- year old design. Virtually every manufacturer has used the fundamentals. I don't think it will be phased out any time soon.

[Vargus]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

However, for a full strip, I don't think any gun can compete with the 1911.

The 1911 is it's own toolbox. Seeing how you can take every piece apart using other parts and a .45 ACP case was simply amazing.

[5.56 SS109]

I'm not a 1911-hater, but I really don't understand why anyone would want a gigantic, low capacity, pistol that may or may not need gunsmithing done right out of the box to make it reliable.

When I can go to the gunstore, buy a GLOCK, and maybe run a patch through the barrel just to remove some of the packing grease, load it, and shoot.

No malfunctions, no nothing.

That and the only people that make GLOCK magazines, is GLOCK.

So I don't have to try all kinds of magazines from different manufactures to see what my gun "likes" best.


I believe the 1911 became obsolete in 1935


Oh, and speaking of Hi Powers, here's me being a dick to that POS Charles Daly clone that I got rid of.


http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=DSCN0334.flv

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...t=DSCN0335.flv

[blue_monday]

the 1911 is an excellent, but outdated design. I'm a fan of Hi powers, cz75's, and i'd like to try out the taurus 24/7 and the FNP.

[Vargus]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

that may or may not need gunsmithing done right out of the box to make it reliable.

If by "reliable" you mean "able to fire JHP bullets" you might be right. The 1911 was designed to fire only FMJ bullets.

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by Vargus

If by "reliable" you mean "able to fire JHP bullets" you might be right. The 1911 was designed to fire only FMJ bullets.

Definitely, the Glock is a superb pistol. But it is not easily updatable. It was designed to its limit.

And modern, "specialized" 1911's tend to be less reliable than their WWII counterparts. Those combat guns worked really well out of the box.

At any rate, I'm designing a pistol that combines the best features of both Glock and 1911. It will tentatively be my first production model.

[bobapanbeers]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

If it ain't broke, don't fuck with it. The AK-47 has been around for a long time now and will be for many years to come, even though there are better and more modern AKs.

Cheap, it works, it kills.

Plus, like cars, some firearms have an epic status that will never go away. Especially in America. I mean, the European car industry basically rapes everything that comes out of the USA. Still, people will drive 30 year old Fords Mustangs and Dodge Chargers, even though they have to fill up the gas tank every 10 miles (slight dramatization). Why would they drive a car with an 8L engine when they could be driving a 3L 6 cylinder in-line BMW that is faster, better and about 1000% more fuel efficient? Because the old muscle cars have a legacy. Same goes for guns. Guns even more so. America was built with a Colt.

the ak-47 was replaced a long time ago by the more modern ak-74. Real ak-47's are hard to find. Look up your shit...

[Ferlas child of mars]

Originally Posted by blue_monday

the 1911 is an excellent, but outdated design. I'm a fan of Hi powers, cz75's, and i'd like to try out the taurus 24/7 and the FNP.

I am sorry, but you are saying that you prefer a CZ75 to a Colt 1911 GCT??? I have seen a new CZ75 fire month after month…. And it broke down after about 5000 rounds. A 1911 can still be used after decennia of heavy use. There are still guys shooting their 70 series 1911 which they bought new.

I would prefer an ,,outdated" gun who still works after 20 years, than some cheap CZ/Taurus who is ment to be replaced after a couple of 1000 rounds.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by bobapanbeers

the ak-47 was replaced a long time ago by the more modern ak-74. Real ak-47's are hard to find. Look up your shit...

And the AK74 was replaced with the AK-100 series.

Look up YOUR shit.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by Ferlas child of mars

I am sorry, but you are saying that you prefer a CZ75 to a Colt 1911 GCT??? I have seen a new CZ75 fire month after month…. And it broke down after about 5000 rounds. A 1911 can still be used after decennia of heavy use. There are still guys shooting their 70 series 1911 which they bought new.

The guns you refer to are second grade garbage…. I whas talking about German (and some Italian) guns because they are the only ones who can compete with US guns. (Quality like).

Do you even know what an FNP is?

Hardly second rate garbage.

I would consider FN's pistols to be some of the best in the world.

[Ferlas child of mars]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

Do you even know what an FNP is?

Hardly second rate garbage.

I would consider FN's pistols to be some of the best in the world.

Hehe... Yes, I know I am a CZ hater,
I whas talking about the CZ.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by Ferlas child of mars

Hehe... Yes, I know I am a CZ hater,
I whas talking about the CZ.

Oh I agree.

Fuck the CZ-75.

Why on earth would anyone design a gun where the recoil forces get absorbed on the slide stop?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by bobapanbeers

the ak-47 was replaced a long time ago by the more modern ak-74. Real ak-47's are hard to find. Look up your shit...

Actually, russian AKs are just hard to find altogether. Most AKs used now are modifications based on the original 47 model. Every Eastern country has at least one. You look your shit up, asswipe.

[5.56 SS109]

Saigas are Russian.

However, Russian law states that commercial guns have to be inferior to military guns.

So, even though Saigas are high quality, most of them are build with rejected military parts.

But hey, it's Russian

[Ferlas child of mars]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

Why on earth would anyone design a gun where the recoil forces get absorbed on the slide stop?

Weak point on the CZ-75 pre B... But, where does the (slide) stop on a 1911?
I have taken mine apart (a Gold Cup Trophy SS model year 2005), and I looked at the locking system, that couldn't be the stop. eehmm?

[5.56 SS109]

It's different.

The CZ's barrel slams into the slide stop, while the 1911's link pivots the barrel on the slide stop.

Hardly the same.

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

Do you even know what an FNP is?

Hardly second rate garbage.

I would consider FN's pistols to be some of the best in the world.

I still don't know whether the Hi-Power or the 1911 is best. But I did managed to make my Hi-power Mk. 2 inoperative the other day by accidentally dropping it.
Its been fixed, but it disappointed me still.

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Actually, russian AKs are just hard to find altogether. Most AKs used now are modifications based on the original 47 model. Every Eastern country has at least one. You look your shit up, asswipe.

Wrong. Over here they're a dime-a dozen. I personally have two, and would be able to acquire up to 10 on short notice, all for a mere $6,000 .

[Gun Lover]

1911s are nice n all but I feel the design of the SIG P220 is superb although it suffers the same capacity disadvantages as the 1911.
Glocks are great for the price, my 36 is perfect for concealed carry

[7i8_Dago]

almost all of the modern H&K are beautiful.

orgasmic. especially the g36c

[The Savage]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

...
An M1911 has about the same number of parts than a Glock, to begin with...

I remember reading that, incluiding pins and things, a glock has 34 parts vs the 1911's 60-something?

And my vote goes to the new stuff. Personally i think hype from gun writers have sold most 1911's. Don't get me wrong it's a good gun but open pretty much any US gun magazine and you'll find that 1911's will at least get a mention and in others, 1/2 or more of the book is usually about 1911/.45. Talking about it's proud history during it's numerous wars and how awesome it is ect.

If i could go out and buy pistols freely i'd have a 1911 tomorrow (and a Glock today ).

[Vargus]

Originally Posted by The Savage

I remember reading that, incluiding pins and things, a glock has 34 parts vs the 1911's 60-something?

And my vote goes to the new stuff. Personally i think hype from gun writers have sold most 1911's. Don't get me wrong it's a good gun but open pretty much any US gun magazine and you'll find that 1911's will at least get a mention and in others, 1/2 or more of the book is usually about 1911/.45. Talking about it's proud history during it's numerous wars and how awesome it is ect.

If i could go out and buy pistols freely i'd have a 1911 tomorrow (and a Glock today ).

If John Moses Browning thought it needed 60 parts, it needed 60 parts.

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by Vargus

If John Moses Browning thought it needed 60 parts, it needed 60 parts.

It has 40 if I remember right. I counted them. Inluding screws, springs, pins, grips and sights.

And the gun can fire without the barrel link and pin and the guide rod, although I suspect either of these will result in very fast wear.

Like I said, I think the Glock is a superb design, and will snap one up as soon as possible, but I don't like several things about it.

From my experience with a Luger, I feel safer with a gun that has a hammer. I'm also more comfortable with an external safety.

Glocks are much thicker and "squarer" than a 1911. Even the BHP is rather thick, in my opinion.

Polymer Frames. I don't trust them. I don't even trust aluminum frames. I like weight in my gun.

Trigger Pull. I love the 1911's crisp, neat break, as opposed to the more sluggish one of the Glock. Only the Desert Eagle has a better factory trigger pull than the Glock.

About the only real drawback I can find in my 1911 is the low magazine capacity.

I'd prefer a Springfield XD to a Glock, because of the grip safety, tho.
And if I got a Glock, it would be a 34. I like my big guns. Maybe it's a compensation issue .

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

Wrong. Over here they're a dime-a dozen. I personally have two, and would be able to acquire up to 10 on short notice, all for a mere $6,000 .

Over here is USA I guess? Those aren't even full automatic. That's fail. Those things don't even count as Kalashnikovs. I still stand by the fact that most AKs used in the world today are East European or Asian modifications of the old 47 model.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Over here is USA I guess? Those aren't even full automatic. That's fail. Those things don't even count as Kalashnikovs. I still stand by the fact that most AKs used in the world today are East European or Asian modifications of the old 47 model.

He has at least one Russian made, select fire, AK47.

I'm pretty sure he can get others as easily as he said he can.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

I'm pretty sure he can get others as easily as he said he can.

Well that's good for him and all but the point is that on a world scale, the AK47 mods are the most commonly used assault rifles. In warzones or otherwise.

[5.56 SS109]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Well that's good for him and all but the point is that on a world scale, the AKM mods are the most commonly used assault rifles. In warzones or otherwise.

Fixed

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

Fixed

QFT

My second "AK 47" is actually a late production run Tula AKM.





Here they are for your pleasure. Note selector markings and selector switches set to full auto.

[Ferlas child of mars]

The original theses on this thread was the 1911 (US) vs. German handguns.
But, we ended up with russian made full-automatics...mmmm

Fuck the Jerry's and the Tommie's .... let's buy AK-47's (or mods)

[Afromonk]

Originally Posted by LavaRed

QFT

Here they are for your pleasure. Note selector markings and selector switches set to full auto...Bitch

Fixed.

[ZX9R]

I welcome the idea of owning and carrying another nineteen eleven pistol.

However every one I invested in to in the past would not reliably feed hollow points and a few choked on ball ammunition.



Every pistol I purchase is bought with the intent of concealed carry.

Lack of reliability is not an option.

[5.56 SS109]

I'm going to go on record as saying "fuck the 1911".

I would trust my life to a friggin' Makarov over ANY 1911.

But, when it comes down to it, the only logical choice is the GLOCK Model 19.

And, I know, 9mm blah blah blah.


But if a 9x19 can't do it, you need a shotgun or a rifle, not a .45.

[I_can_sit_on_my_junk]

I agree that gun magazines are stuck on 1911s, not even "real" 1911s either, it's always the $2000+ stuff that most of us aren't going to touch. I am however a huge 1911 fan and the 3 that I've owned are my 3 favorite guns I've ever had.

Some people dig Glocks, but I don't. However I'm realistic and honest in that I can't find a logical reason to not like them other than I just don't shoot as good with them. They are a kick ass gun and their reliability can't be beat.

[ZX9R]

Originally Posted by 5.56 SS109

I'm going to go on record as saying "fuck the 1911".

Indeed.

Still...

The nineteen eleven is appealing.

I just wish I could find one that was just as reliable as any forty five I currently own.

I've never ran in to a single reliability issue with any SIG/HK/GLOCK.

Out of the box,

Winchester Ranger JHP
Federal HST
Speer Gold Dot JHP

They eat them all up.

I wish I could say that with the prior nineteen elevens I have owned.

[I_can_sit_on_my_junk]

There is usually a lengthy break in period with 1911s since they are built pretty tight. The general gun buying public is full of people who read too many magazines. If they see that a brand of gun is shooting large(although perfectly acceptable) groups at 25 yards they will assume that it is junk. Truth be told those people are probably lucky to have any of their shots within a few inches of each other at that range.

So out of necessity the firearms companies end up making everything tight as hell just so they don't get bashed in magazines. It seems that reviews for the other gun brands don't put such an emphasis on accuracy as they do when they write about 1911s.

But if you see a really old 1911 that is half silver looking since it has aged quite a bit, those will rarely have malfunctions. Then again those are the ones that passed the break in stage thousands of rounds ago.

I'm not saying that 1911s are inherently more accurate or anything, just offering that as a possible explanation for the poor reliability seen in some guns. Tight parts are finicky. Tight parts riding on imperfect contact surfaces are even more finicky.



Hey! I fit finicky into a post more than once, how fun.

[LavaRed]

Originally Posted by I_can_sit_on_my_junk

There is usually a lengthy break in period with 1911s since they are built pretty tight. The general gun buying public is full of people who read too many magazines. If they see that a brand of gun is shooting large(although perfectly acceptable) groups at 25 yards they will assume that it is junk. Truth be told those people are probably lucky to have any of their shots within a few inches of each other at that range.

So out of necessity the firearms companies end up making everything tight as hell just so they don't get bashed in magazines. It seems that reviews for the other gun brands don't put such an emphasis on accuracy as they do when they write about 1911s.

But if you see a really old 1911 that is half silver looking since it has aged quite a bit, those will rarely have malfunctions. Then again those are the ones that passed the break in stage thousands of rounds ago.

I'm not saying that 1911s are inherently more accurate or anything, just offering that as a possible explanation for the poor reliability seen in some guns. Tight parts are finicky. Tight parts riding on imperfect contact surfaces are even more finicky.



Hey! I fit finicky into a post more than once, how fun.

Not really. The old, military 1911's were manufactured to much looser tolerances, both to make them more reliable under field conditions, and because the machining processes back then were manual, meaning there was far more variation in fit and finish.